Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Odrysian Kingdom - Never Forget!

ItharusItharus Senior MemberPosts: 6,615Registered Users
edited January 2015 in General Discussion
Hi there! Odrysian Kingdom is still sitting around as untouched as a leper in a brothel, waiting with baited breath for roster additions and/or modifications.

In the spirit of reminding the folks at CA that the Odrysian Kingdom still needs a review, here's a few suggestions for changes:

1) Thracian Peltasts: I've come to believe that this unit needs a few changes to properly fill the role it wants to be used for but can't quite pull off properly.
a) Change the unit type from "Very Heavy Missile Infantry" to "Medium Infantry". This will have the effect of giving them about 33% more soldiers, and giving them a unit spacing that actually lets them fight in a melee without being hopelessly outnumbered and handicapped by poor spacing.
b) Keep their ranged statistics the same, however, reduce their ammunition to 3 javelins per soldier, and remove their ability to have a Quick Reload (this ability should be granted instead to the Thracian Skirmishers). Bump their melee attack skill a little bit to represent their new role as a javelin-using melee unit.
c) Since you have recently increased their armor, please consider changing their model visually to include a helmet and greaves; it would also help visually separate them from the Thracian Skirmishers. Also, their sword should be a modeled sica - not the strange little thing it currently looks like. Sword type is "Balkan Sword" iirc - so let's seeit!

These changes would make for a decent, medium melee unit that is still vulnerable to missiles and that still fits the flavor of the faction, while providing some missile support, and having enough numbers and a tight enough formation to actually last for more than half a second in a fight. It's not really that much of a stretch, there are some similar Germanic and Iberian units in game already, and the Thracians did have fighters like this.

2) Thracian Skirmishers: Modified in light of the above.
a) As mentioned above, this unit would benefit from getting the Quick Reload skill that is currently to be found on Thracian Peltasts. This would allow for superior dedicated javelin forces if desired while freeing up the Thracian Peltasts to press the assault.

3) Thracian Spears (Hoplites/Spearmen/Spear Warriors/Whatever!): Seriously guys - spears were a pretty much universal weapon. Still are! Bayonets are still in use and a rifle with one is basically a short-spear.
a) Yeah. I don't really care what you call them, but some relatively weak spearmen would be greatly appreciated.
b) So basically I'm hoping for a medium spear unit. Armor can be light (literally just a helmet would be fine), so long as they have a decent shield - either a hoplon, a thureos, or some other larger shield, even if it's a crescent shield that's just bigger! Something similar in stats to those basic spearmen the Suebians get would be ideal.

4) Thracian Cavalry: Love these guys! They are a combination of missile and melee cavalry for the Odrysian Kingdom. I do think they could stand to be a little more powerful though - so that they stand the test of time.
a) Please give them the same "Balkan Sword" that the Thracian Peltasts use, the DMG: 25, AP DMG: 10 one. In fact, IMO, this should be the basic sword issued to every single unit in the Pirates and Raiders DLC that is equipped with a sword as their primary weapon - and it should feature the model of a sica.
b) For some odd reason, despite being mounted on horseback, and launching their javelins from a height and speed advantage - they are inferior javelinmen to all other javelin units in the OK roster! Please consider increasing their javelin stats to be up to snuff with the Skirmishers/Peltasts of the OK - 41dmg (29 reg, 12 ap).

If the above changes were made to the OK roster I'd be extremely happy. I don't think anything would be particularly overpowering about the above, although the purchase-costs might need to go slightly up for the Thracian Cavalry and Thracian Peltasts - perhaps to 500 and 550 respectively. Most importantly, it largely preserves the style of lightly armored quick offensive units.
Post edited by Itharus on
«13

Comments

  • DetailedEyesDetailedEyes Senior Member AustraliaPosts: 4,715Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    I disagree with the peltast change to make them infantry, then they aren't a peltast as the game considers them they're suddenly a sword unit when that's not what Odrysia needs when they have thracian warriors and nobles.
    "We shall have peace. We shall have peace when you answer for the burning of the Westfold, and the children that lie dead there. When the lives of the soldiers, whose bodies were hewn even as they lay dead against the Gates of the Hornburg are avenged! When you hang from a gibbet, for the sport of your own crows, we shall have peace."

    Theoden to Saruman at Orthanc, also my total war philosophy.
  • TheCataphractTheCataphract Senior Member Posts: 106Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    The peltast change you described sounds a lot like an Illyrian marine, or a normal thureos unit. But I like the idea; however, do not change them to "medium infantry" and keep the unit spacing, but give them a good melee attack and proper charge bonus. That way they can take on a nice skirmishing role where they have their javelins, can still move relatively fast, and have a good charge but can't stay prolonged in melee. They'd be like shock skirmishers lol.
  • Ajajp_AlejandroAjajp_Alejandro Senior Member Posts: 248Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    The Thracian Peltasts would need at least 5 ammo. Thureos Spears and other hibrid-units have 5 ammo.
    Team Himyar
    Arabian Factions for the Win!

    Do you think Armenia lacks an elite-infantry unit? Check out my Kentronakan Swordmen mod!
    Kentronakan Swordmen for Armenia
  • DetailedEyesDetailedEyes Senior Member AustraliaPosts: 4,715Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Hybrid ammo varies, most have 5 but royal peltasts have 3 and skiritai have 10.
    "We shall have peace. We shall have peace when you answer for the burning of the Westfold, and the children that lie dead there. When the lives of the soldiers, whose bodies were hewn even as they lay dead against the Gates of the Hornburg are avenged! When you hang from a gibbet, for the sport of your own crows, we shall have peace."

    Theoden to Saruman at Orthanc, also my total war philosophy.
  • Ajajp_AlejandroAjajp_Alejandro Senior Member Posts: 248Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Hybrid ammo varies, most have 5 but royal peltasts have 3 and skiritai have 10.
    Royal Peltasts have 3 ammo? Wow I didn't know that, thank you! There are no Skiritai in GC nor multiplayer, so I don't really mind them.
    Team Himyar
    Arabian Factions for the Win!

    Do you think Armenia lacks an elite-infantry unit? Check out my Kentronakan Swordmen mod!
    Kentronakan Swordmen for Armenia
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,615Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    The main reason I was after the Thracian Peltast type change is that they are obviously a hybrid unit (the first really, they were released shortly before the revamp that passed them out en masse) - but they can't hold up in a fight appropriately when outnumbered by 33% and with loose spacing. Also, "very heavy missile infantry" makes zero sense when Picked Peltasts, who are rather well armored, are "light infantry". Truth be told I think Thracian Peltasts were just the prototype hybrid unit for the game, and that they have been left as an evolutionary dead end because the devs forgot about the Odrysian Kingdom or something.

    If they could keep the unit type while making the spacing a toggle option and increasing their numbers - cool. As for them losing their "skirmisherness" - that's why I was thinking it'd be nice to add the quick reload to the Thracian Skirmishers; it'd be nice to not have them go obsolete as soon as you get the Thracian Peltasts. Thracian Skirmishers could maybe even get a few more ammo tied to an upgrade in the warfare tree or something - sorta like the light peltast bit that the Greeks get.

    Since the Thracian Peltast's stats are only fairly moderate, I don't think it'd be stepping on the toes of the Thracian Warriors too much. Honestly, I think they'd become a good force for taking advantage of the lines/flanks that Thracian Warriors can breach/shatter or for making enough of a threat to act as a force that better allows the TW to maneuver.

    Any similarities to Illyrian Marines is incidental - I don't have that much experience with the Ardiaei.
  • SebideeSebidee Senior Member Posts: 3,801Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Hey man, I made a mod that makes all of those changes, including the Sica (peltasts are still missile troops but are better in melee). Not much good for MP but you can use it in your campaigns.

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=294665380
  • JTWJTW Senior Member The empire of DenmarkPosts: 354Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Just give them 1 or 2 spear units and 1 or 2 sica units and they're perfect !
    It's never too late to panic!
  • wishs2workedwishs2worked Senior Member Posts: 2,161Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Jthewonder wrote: »
    Just give them 1 or 2 spear units and 1 or 2 sica units and they're perfect !

    Actually, I have that very mod: it adds Dacian Spears and Dacian Heavy Spears to OK's roster. This guy made it and emailed it to me, he doesn't know how to put it on steam workshop (and neither do i) but I can email it to you if you want. It works for custom battles and GC. It's just one unit... and yet it's that little thing that OK needs.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesPosts: 1,627Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    They just need one sica units and one native spear..
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

    god of war

    LIZARDMEN #makelustriagreatagain
    Clan Moulder #masterclan
  • Ajajp_AlejandroAjajp_Alejandro Senior Member Posts: 248Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Actually, I have that very mod: it adds Dacian Spears and Dacian Heavy Spears to OK's roster. This guy made it and emailed it to me, he doesn't know how to put it on steam workshop (and neither do i) but I can email it to you if you want. It works for custom battles and GC. It's just one unit... and yet it's that little thing that OK needs.
    If you want to put it on Steam Workshop, go to Mod Manager in the TW launcher, and select "Upload" under your mod. Then all is following some instructions, adding a description and a mod name, and set it as "Public".
    Team Himyar
    Arabian Factions for the Win!

    Do you think Armenia lacks an elite-infantry unit? Check out my Kentronakan Swordmen mod!
    Kentronakan Swordmen for Armenia
  • JTWJTW Senior Member The empire of DenmarkPosts: 354Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Actually, I have that very mod: it adds Dacian Spears and Dacian Heavy Spears to OK's roster. This guy made it and emailed it to me, he doesn't know how to put it on steam workshop (and neither do i) but I can email it to you if you want. It works for custom battles and GC. It's just one unit... and yet it's that little thing that OK needs.
    Currently using a modified version of Maf's Balkan unit pack, i removed every unit except the Odryssian Hoplites and Thracian Spears which both look awesome and fitted my preferences. Then i've added Gallo-Thracian Infantry to their roster and made a bunch of other small changes. It's all very possible to change with mods, but alot of people will never see or use those mods and it won't work for MP either, so making these changes is crucial if you ask me.
    It's never too late to panic!
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesPosts: 1,627Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Jthewonder wrote: »
    Just give them 1 or 2 spear units and 1 or 2 sica units and they're perfect !

    Yep, add in one more elite sica unit for Ardieai and the Balkan are complete in my opinion.
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

    god of war

    LIZARDMEN #makelustriagreatagain
    Clan Moulder #masterclan
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,615Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Right on about the mods, guys. I'm just really hoping CA will revisit this and make the right changes, ya know? I'd like to see the official game wholly set up :)
  • MarijanMarijan Senior Member Posts: 2,001Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Don't forget about their naval units, especially after the most recent changes to naval combat crippled them even further. The Odrysian Kingdom had no standing fleet historically and instead entirely relied on the Greek colonies on its coast line, including their capital in this game, to provide ships to them if needed. There is absolutely no reason for them to construct ships in a Celtic fashion, while they had access to Greek ships or at the very least the necessary knowledge to imitate them, instead of relying on inferior designs of other Barbarians, which recently invaded and raided their territory. They already have comparably lightly armored units, which are as usual considerably smaller than usual as ship crews, which can not utilize their significant charge bonuses in naval warfare as far as I know - there is really no reason to make them even worse, especially if it is not historically accurate either. While they are on it they could also make Thracian Bowmen and Peltasts available as proper naval units and replace the nonsensical unit of slingers as admiral, which neither makes sense in case of the faction nor naval combat in general.
  • SebideeSebidee Senior Member Posts: 3,801Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Marijan wrote: »
    There is absolutely no reason for them to construct ships in a Celtic fashion, while they had access to Greek ships or at the very least the necessary knowledge to imitate them, instead of relying on inferior designs of other Barbarians, which recently invaded and raided their territory.

    I'll second that. Give them Greek ships.
  • Pinkerton00Pinkerton00 Senior Member Posts: 471Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    They don't need anything. I demonstrated a long time ago that they are deadly effective in multiplayer when used properly. They've received only buffs since then. Since their buffs, they really don't even need any of their mercs to be effective and they work a **** load better in early campaign than they did before.

    They require you to use different tactics. That's all. Now stop confusing CA by asking for things that they don't need.
  • MarijanMarijan Senior Member Posts: 2,001Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    They don't need anything. I demonstrated a long time ago that they are deadly effective in multiplayer when used properly. They've received only buffs since then. Since their buffs, they really don't even need any of their mercs to be effective and they work a **** load better in early campaign than they did before.

    They require you to use different tactics. That's all. Now stop confusing CA by asking for things that they don't need.

    I would have thought that you would have understood by now that there is more to balance than the general multiplayer performance of a faction and even more to consider than balancing when talking about what a faction needs. The Odrysian Kingdom is very far from "fine", especially on the campaign map, although some individually very powerful units, for example their Thracian Nobles with ridiculously high stats, make it competitive in multiplayer. Take their naval units, which I already mentioned, as best example for units, which are basically irrelevant in multiplayer, but cripple the Odrysian Kingdom on the campaign map despite being historically inaccurate and nonsensical.
  • wishs2workedwishs2worked Senior Member Posts: 2,161Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    They don't need anything. I demonstrated a long time ago that they are deadly effective in multiplayer when used properly. They've received only buffs since then. Since their buffs, they really don't even need any of their mercs to be effective and they work a **** load better in early campaign than they did before.

    They require you to use different tactics. That's all. Now stop confusing CA by asking for things that they don't need.

    And once again, multiplayer intrudes on the discussion. As far as I know, we're discussing OK in the GC. The two are completely different. I've played 900 hours, all of the in the GC. The OK is without question the weakest faction in the GC. Mercenaries count for nothing when you have to pay for
    Them turn after turn. The OK does need at least one more unit.
  • SebideeSebidee Senior Member Posts: 3,801Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    They don't need anything. I demonstrated a long time ago that they are deadly effective in multiplayer when used properly. They've received only buffs since then. Since their buffs, they really don't even need any of their mercs to be effective and they work a **** load better in early campaign than they did before.

    They require you to use different tactics. That's all. Now stop confusing CA by asking for things that they don't need.

    There's always realism to take into account too man. Basic spearmen, sicas and significantly stronger peltasts would have been used by the Thracians.
  • Pinkerton00Pinkerton00 Senior Member Posts: 471Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Marijan wrote: »
    I would have thought that you would have understood by now that there is more to balance than the general multiplayer performance of a faction and even more to consider than balancing when talking about what a faction needs. The Odrysian Kingdom is very far from "fine", especially on the campaign map, although some individually very powerful units, for example their Thracian Nobles with ridiculously high stats, make it competitive in multiplayer. Take their naval units, which I already mentioned, as best example for units, which are basically irrelevant in multiplayer, but cripple the Odrysian Kingdom on the campaign map despite being historically inaccurate and nonsensical.

    You guys are ignoring the fact that I did mention campaign in my post as well. Why do you always choose something to ignore and then pick at it as though I never said anything about it?

    The armor boost to peltasts, the morale boost to warriors, and the other minor bonuses to other units that OK has gotten since the last time we had this discussion have done a hell of a lot towards making OK easier to play in campaign. And I promise you, they were manageable before that, if challenging.

    And there are plenty of factions with next to worthless navies. It's usually because those factions weren't naval powers. The Thracians were never a naval power. It's really not hard to win a campaign without ever building a strong navy. Sure, having a powerful navy opens up some extra options for you, but it's definitely not necessary for a lot of factions. You might as well be arguing for improving the navies of nomad factions.
    If you really want Greek or Persian style ships, just capture a port. You can recruit bowmen penteres or warrior tetreres, depending on the culture of the shipyard. Which makes sense, by the way. The only way Thracian kings ever got war ships was when Greek cities made gifts of them as tribute (which wasn't very often). The fact that they mostly recruit barbarian style ships in game is a placeholder for the fact that they actually didn't have any navy at all.
  • Pinkerton00Pinkerton00 Senior Member Posts: 471Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Sebidee wrote: »
    There's always realism to take into account too man. Basic spearmen, sicas and significantly stronger peltasts would have been used by the Thracians.

    We've had this discussion before many times. Historians suggest no organized units of spearmen and the Thracians' historical use of the sica is actually very nicely and comprehensively covered in the unique melee weapon stats of Thracian Peltasts (although the sica model is, sadly, not included). There are other threads with links to historical literature, but here I will just remind that the historical armies of Thrace (especially Odrysia) consisted almost entirely in peltasts and horse skirmishers with a few heavily armored nobles on horseback. Thracian Warriors and Nobles are already a pretty significant breach of historical accuracy.

    And Thracian peltasts are already some of the strongest peltasts in game

    EDIT: Side note, I have even won multiplayer battles against competent opponents with the following (historically accurate) army comp:
    12 Thracian Peltasts, 6 Thracian Cav, 2 Thracian Royal Cav

    Yeah, that's multiplayer...but as we all know, if it works in multiplayer it crushes in campaign.
  • SebideeSebidee Senior Member Posts: 3,801Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    We've had this discussion before many times. Historians suggest no organized units of spearmen and the Thracians' historical use of the sica is actually very nicely and comprehensively covered in the unique melee weapon stats of Thracian Peltasts (although the sica model is, sadly, not included). There are other threads with links to historical literature, but here I will just remind that the historical armies of Thrace (especially Odrysia) consisted almost entirely in peltasts and horse skirmishers with a few heavily armored nobles on horseback. Thracian Warriors and Nobles are already a pretty significant breach of historical accuracy.

    And Thracian peltasts are already some of the strongest peltasts in game

    EDIT: Side note, I have even won multiplayer battles against competent opponents with the following (historically accurate) army comp:
    12 Thracian Peltasts, 6 Thracian Cav, 2 Thracian Royal Cav

    Yeah, that's multiplayer...but as we all know, if it works in multiplayer it crushes in campaign.

    "Thracians never had organised units of spearmen". Well thracians never really had organised units of anything besides royal guards. Does that mean those are the only units they can have? Spears are pretty universal, you don't need to be a genius to put a point on a stick. More importantly spears have a very specific and important use in the game so the Thracians lack of them is a fatal flaw.

    Multiplayer battles are always made up of equal armies, also individual skill is a big factor. You may personally be a great player but there are plenty of people who struggle with battles. If they have to fight an unfair fight then they will seriously struggle with such a weak roster which is unfair for new players.
  • MarijanMarijan Senior Member Posts: 2,001Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    You guys are ignoring the fact that I did mention campaign in my post as well. Why do you always choose something to ignore and then pick at it as though I never said anything about it?

    Simply because it had and has no relevance. Your only actual argument was that they are or rather can be "deadly effective" in multiplayer, which does not allow the conclusion that the faction is fine in general, as I already said, and how the "early game" of the faction currently is in comparison to before, which is basically meaningless for discussing further changes and improvements.
    The armor boost to peltasts, the morale boost to warriors, and the other minor bonuses to other units that OK has gotten since the last time we had this discussion have done a hell of a lot towards making OK easier to play in campaign. And I promise you, they were manageable before that, if challenging.

    The indirect buff to spear infantry through the removal of the bonus vs infantry from melee infantry considerably weakened them beforehand, since they did not benefit from it at all. Furthermore the individual power of some units, their competitiveness in multiplayer or the fact that you can defeat the AI on the campaign map with this faction (duh) still does not allow the conclusion that the faction would be completely fine in general. They could make Thracian Nobles twice as powerful and the Odrysian Kingdom would wreck everyone and everything in multiplayer and on the campaign map and the faction would still be very far from fine.
    And there are plenty of factions with next to worthless navies. It's usually because those factions weren't naval powers. The Thracians were never a naval power. It's really not hard to win a campaign without ever building a strong navy. Sure, having a powerful navy opens up some extra options for you, but it's definitely not necessary for a lot of factions. You might as well be arguing for improving the navies of nomad factions.

    Once again, what is "necessary" to defeat the AI on the campaign map is not really significant. You could probably win a campaign with nothing but agents, but that doesn't mean it would be fine to have no access to any units. The lack of ramming for Barbarian navies is already a balance issue for other factions, but the Odrysian Kingdom in specific is one of the factions that suffers the most from this nonsense, because they a) shouldn't use Celtic but Greek ships instead, as they did historically, and b) their crews are already comparably bad for this task with tiny units of melee infantry, which has low armor and high charge bonus, and no access to their Peltasts and very limited access to their archers as crews. Their navy wasn't good or historically accurate before, but this additional disadvantage made them even worse.

    If you really want Greek or Persian style ships, just capture a port. You can recruit bowmen penteres or warrior tetreres, depending on the culture of the shipyard. Which makes sense, by the way. The only way Thracian kings ever got war ships was when Greek cities made gifts of them as tribute (which wasn't very often). The fact that they mostly recruit barbarian style ships in game is a placeholder for the fact that they actually didn't have any navy at all.

    No, it makes absolutely no sense that a faction with Odessos as capital, one of many Greek colonies at their coast line that were able and willing to provide Greek ships to the Odrysians, has to find and conquer the port of another faction first to construct the ships they should already have to begin. This mechanic might make sense in case of other Barbarian factions, although it is badly implemented even in those cases, but it is nonsense in case of the Odrysians. I already said that they had no standing navy, but relied on Greek colonies to provide them, which was as often as the Odrysians deemed it necessary, since paying tributes on demand can hardly be considered as voluntary "gifting". These colonies are in this game by the way not only part of your empire, but even your capital. Whether you consider it as "placeholder" or not, it is a nonsensical oversight, since they had access to Greek ships and even if you would assume that they ran out of them, there would be absolutely no reason for them to go back to constructing inferior Celtic ships instead of utilizing the knowledge and facilities at their coast line.
  • Brutally HonestBrutally Honest Senior Member Posts: 570Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Look at you girls bickering over this while we got performance issues, desyncs and other gamebreaking bugs to be campaigning about.
    I feel so sorry for the developing team. Due to the lack of communications with the ambitious PR team they've had so much stress and so many problems to deal with.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,615Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    I am experiencing no performance issues or game breaking bugs. Game runs great for me. Now stop hijacking :P

    Also, **** it, Pinkerton - quit trying to derail every OK thread that comes out. That is troll behavior.

    To everyone else: please just ignore Pinkerton's comments - he's trying to turn this into a flame war so that mods shut it down. If you want proof, view every other OK thread ever created - assuming it hasn't already been cleaned out of posts by the moderators.

    Also yes, I am 100% talking about the single player campaign. They can rebalance costs as/if necessary for MP.
  • Pinkerton00Pinkerton00 Senior Member Posts: 471Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Sebidee wrote: »
    "Thracians never had organised units of spearmen". Well thracians never really had organised units of anything besides royal guards. Does that mean those are the only units they can have? Spears are pretty universal, you don't need to be a genius to put a point on a stick. More importantly spears have a very specific and important use in the game so the Thracians lack of them is a fatal flaw.

    Multiplayer battles are always made up of equal armies, also individual skill is a big factor. You may personally be a great player but there are plenty of people who struggle with battles. If they have to fight an unfair fight then they will seriously struggle with such a weak roster which is unfair for new players.

    Most factions in the game had organized units of spearmen or, at the very least, had large numbers of them. Yeah, there were probably SOME spears used by infantry, but it was only a couple of their peltasts who had spears instead of daggers or what have you. It wasn't spear infantry like you're thinking. Again, we've had this discussion before. I don't want to go through this again.
    And tactically, it's not a fatal flaw. It's only a fatal flaw if you try to use the same tactics that you use for the Arverni, which is a terrible idea.

    And I am not a great player. I am far as hell from a great player. Any of those tournament players would wipe the floor with me no matter what faction I picked. Don't put those words in my mouth. As far as the difficulty being unfair for a new player...go play LoL. Tell me how a new player would do with different champions. Do you think they'd have an easier time with Garen or, say, Jayce? The point here being that relative difficulty of use for a particular playable character/faction is not legitimate grounds for complaint in this case, as it's an intentional design decision.
    Marijan wrote: »
    The indirect buff to spear infantry through the removal of the bonus vs infantry from melee infantry considerably weakened them beforehand, since they did not benefit from it at all. Furthermore the individual power of some units, their competitiveness in multiplayer or the fact that you can defeat the AI on the campaign map with this faction (duh) still does not allow the conclusion that the faction would be completely fine in general. They could make Thracian Nobles twice as powerful and the Odrysian Kingdom would wreck everyone and everything in multiplayer and on the campaign map and the faction would still be very far from fine.

    They have a big bonus vs cav. How have you already forgotten every point of the conversation that we had before? As I've already pointed out, they have received sizable buffs to their lower tier units, which made them easier to play in early campaign. They were manageable before. I know because I did it. They made it easier to please people like you. I'm not complaining about it. I'm just pointing out that they've already done a lot to make it easier.
    Marijan wrote: »
    Once again, what is "necessary" to defeat the AI on the campaign map is not really significant. You could probably win a campaign with nothing but agents, but that doesn't mean it would be fine to have no access to any units. The lack of ramming for Barbarian navies is already a balance issue for other factions, but the Odrysian Kingdom in specific is one of the factions that suffers the most from this nonsense, because they a) shouldn't use Celtic but Greek ships instead, as they did historically, and b) their crews are already comparably bad for this task with tiny units of melee infantry, which has low armor and high charge bonus, and no access to their Peltasts and very limited access to their archers as crews. Their navy wasn't good or historically accurate before, but this additional disadvantage made them even worse.

    They didn't use or construct military ships at all, dude. The kings had a couple warships as gifts from Greek cities who payed tribute, but they didn't fight battles at sea. You go find me one historical reference to a sea battle in which the Thracians played a part. Or even an amphibious assault that the Thracians instigated. Until you can find one, stop claiming that they had a navy.
  • Brutally HonestBrutally Honest Senior Member Posts: 570Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Itharus wrote: »
    I am experiencing no performance issues or game breaking bugs. Game runs great for me. Now stop hijacking :P

    Also, **** it, Pinkerton - quit trying to derail every OK thread that comes out. That is troll behavior.

    To everyone else: please just ignore Pinkerton's comments - he's trying to turn this into a flame war so that mods shut it down. If you want proof, view every other OK thread ever created - assuming it hasn't already been cleaned out of posts by the moderators.

    Also yes, I am 100% talking about the single player campaign. They can rebalance costs as/if necessary for MP.

    I dare you to record a campaign without giving into your temptation to edit out the retreats due to not enough room on the beach to land, or fast forwarding because the AI is stuck or fps drops in sieges. I could go on but you are fully aware of what problems there are.
    I feel so sorry for the developing team. Due to the lack of communications with the ambitious PR team they've had so much stress and so many problems to deal with.
  • MarijanMarijan Senior Member Posts: 2,001Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Most factions in the game had organized units of spearmen or, at the very least, had large numbers of them. Yeah, there were probably SOME spears used by infantry, but it was only a couple of their peltasts who had spears instead of daggers or what have you. It wasn't spear infantry like you're thinking. Again, we've had this discussion before. I don't want to go through this again.
    And tactically, it's not a fatal flaw. It's only a fatal flaw if you try to use the same tactics that you use for the Arverni, which is a terrible idea.

    You have read the source mentioning spear-men accompanying javelin-men as well as I did, which even mentioned them as possible predecessors to the Macedonian Sarissa because of their length. There were Thracian spear-men, at the very least on a tribal level as part of unorganized raiding bands, who used whatever they had as in probably most other Barbarian societies as well. They would neither be far-fetched in terms of historical accuracy nor imbalance the faction and wouldn't even require actual work to be implemented, since Dacian Spearmen would be a reasonable addition as well. In reality Greek Hoplites or Macedonian Pikemen often acted as the heavy infantry core of the armies the Thracians ended up fighting in. There is absolutely no reason to assume though, that if their allies would have been braindead idiots that blindly charge into their enemies or get stuck at the edge of the battlefield without even paying attention to your own troop movement, that they would have used the previously existing alternatives to protect themselves against cavalry instead, especially if their anti-cavalry tactics of Peltasts do not work in this game either, where cavalry just smashes into their enemies.
    They have a big bonus vs cav. How have you already forgotten every point of the conversation that we had before? As I've already pointed out, they have received sizable buffs to their lower tier units, which made them easier to play in early campaign. They were manageable before. I know because I did it. They made it easier to please people like you. I'm not complaining about it. I'm just pointing out that they've already done a lot to make it easier.

    How does their bonus vs cavalry relate to the indirect buff of spear-infantry, I mentioned, which weakened the Odrysian Kingdom? The slight buffs they received afterwards barely make up for that loss, especially since the units of many other factions received additional bonuses as well. Be proud of yourself that you "did it", but that is no real achievement against the braindead AI, which is why it is hardly relevant, as I already stated. You could spam Eastern Spearmen and win a campaign at ease, but that doesn't mean a faction which has access to Eastern Spearmen is therefor perfectly fine otherwise. They certainly did not make any aspect of this game "easier" to place "people like me", who are constantly criticizing the complete lack of late-game challenge and campaigns that are usually lost to extreme boredom instead of actual enemies and consider the starting situation of a faction as the only part of the game that could be considered as kind of challenging.
    They didn't use or construct military ships at all, dude. The kings had a couple warships as gifts from Greek cities who payed tribute, but they didn't fight battles at sea. You go find me one historical reference to a sea battle in which the Thracians played a part. Or even an amphibious assault that the Thracians instigated. Until you can find one, stop claiming that they had a navy.

    I didn't claim that they constructed ships, I said that if artificial restrictions and bad game design would have forced them to recruit and construct navies instead of more armies, they certainly would not have started to build inferior Celtic transports instead of the superior Greek ships they were used to and were provided to them by the Greek colonies at their coast line, including their current capital in this game. They had the knowledge and facilities, everything else isn't even relevant for this issue actually. Even if they would have used them for nothing but peaceful boat-tours on the Danube or decorated their bedrooms with them - they had access to Greek ships and everything required to construct them.
  • Pinkerton00Pinkerton00 Senior Member Posts: 471Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Itharus wrote: »
    I am experiencing no performance issues or game breaking bugs. Game runs great for me. Now stop hijacking :P

    Also, **** it, Pinkerton - quit trying to derail every OK thread that comes out. That is troll behavior.

    To everyone else: please just ignore Pinkerton's comments - he's trying to turn this into a flame war so that mods shut it down. If you want proof, view every other OK thread ever created - assuming it hasn't already been cleaned out of posts by the moderators.

    Also yes, I am 100% talking about the single player campaign. They can rebalance costs as/if necessary for MP.

    I'm not trolling or trying to turn anything into a flame war. I just get really annoyed when you guys try to do this and I want to provide the other side of the argument so that CA doesn't get overwhelmed by posts from people who don't understand the concept of gameplay variety and then give in to those players simply because they won't shut up about it. If that happened, the entire game would be worse for it because if you guys got your way, this unique and interesting faction would become just another drop in the sea of Greek city state factions which, aside from being historically inaccurate, would just be flat out boring. And it would all be because you people, for some unknown reason, stubbornly refuse to even try different tactics.
Sign In or Register to comment.