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Huns lost their horse archers

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  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKRegistered Users Posts: 1,136
    edited April 2015
    Tajl wrote: »
    Cheap slingers are allready maybe the most cost effective ranged units in game....

    They're good at killing certain units but they run out of ammo too quickly to be useful against enemy skirmishers.
    [WOLF]Diplomatt

    Moderator of www.reddit.com/r/totalwar
  • TajlTajl Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 258
    edited April 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    They're good at killing certain units but they run out of ammo too quickly to be useful against enemy skirmishers.

    Yes, that is true, at least if they are not shooting enemy crossbowmen. Though I think it is true for all other skirmishers as well expect crossbows. It is just not cost effective to shoot other skirmishers because they will run out of ammo quite soon anyway. So I usually try to shoot somethin else instead and if enemy shoot my skirmishers it is fine because afterward his skirmihers will be useless without ammo anyway and if my skirmihers have killed some melee troops I should have melee advantage.

    Kind of stupid, but part of the problem is that most ranged units are very cheap. Unit that cost something like 180 cant be able to cause too much damage, or it would be far too cost effective and on the other hand if ranged units have more ammo and would cost more to compensate that, any build using them would be very vulnerable against rush builds.

    Maybe some kind of gather ammo special ability could work where they would stand still 30 sec to replenish some of their ammo...
  • Pine89Pine89 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 580
    edited April 2015
    Tajl wrote: »
    Maybe some kind of gather ammo special ability could work where they would stand still 30 sec to replenish some of their ammo...

    considering that we already have naft throwers with infinite grenades, why not, they could have the same ability as them. gotta ask to myself if there's enough time during a battle to put such an ability to good use.. maybe for the late game.
  • PaminaPamina Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 945
    edited April 2015
    At least late game. This could be an option.
    "because you know nothing of multi-player and know nothing of tactics." Hero of Freedom (Too much GoT)

    I'm Panda_Warrior on steam.
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKRegistered Users Posts: 1,136
    edited April 2015
    Archers have lots of ammo and some have lots of range. Very good for late game.

    Anyway back on topic, if horse archers are well balanced that could be nice and could add some variety. They were good in Rome II I think so its definitely possible to get them sorted so they are useful but if you spam them you lose.
    [WOLF]Diplomatt

    Moderator of www.reddit.com/r/totalwar
  • ArhuArhu Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 192
    edited April 2015
    Pine89 wrote: »
    considering that we already have naft throwers with infinite grenades, why not, they could have the same ability as them. gotta ask to myself if there's enough time during a battle to put such an ability to good use.. maybe for the late game.

    considering that most of the western european continent doesnt even have stones, that would be stretching it. I think slingers don't belong in Atilla, accept maybe for select few factions or mercinaries (in spite of the Bayeux tapestry featuring them)
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 228
    edited April 2015
    Tajl wrote: »
    Kind of stupid, but part of the problem is that most ranged units are very cheap. Unit that cost something like 180 cant be able to cause too much damage, or it would be far too cost effective and on the other hand if ranged units have more ammo and would cost more to compensate that, any build using them would be very vulnerable against rush builds.

    Maybe some kind of gather ammo special ability could work where they would stand still 30 sec to replenish some of their ammo...

    It could be both, cheap skirmishers that dont do much dammage and expensive ones with more ammo and decent melee skills. Bringing lots of them would be a risk but it would add more build variety and more thinking about how to counter in the game.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    Tajl wrote: »
    Generally i agree that it is true that only morons spam HAs and they fail with them because they are morons. But it doesnt mean that good players couldn't spam them and be very succesful with them. Most good players just doesn't do it because it is cheap tactic, would ruin their reputation, wouldn't be any kind of challenge and wouldn't help them to increase their skill as skill is only increased when used and HA spam doesn't take much skill.

    I dont know what is micro intensive for you, but if nomad army is micro intensive for you, you probably have lot of problems with balanced 20 units build when you actually have to be able to react on your opponents plans. Of course that can depend on opponents too and if you only play agaisnt new players it doesn't take much micro either.

    I think it would be quite stupid to balance units based on how new players use them, so balancing HAs based on average useless HA spammer would be quite stupid. Good players would **** everything with them. Balancing should be done based on what good players can do with units.

    And yes I had some problems in R2 agaisnt some HA builds when they were played by players with some skill. And i tested HA builds agaisnt some clanmates and could easily cause problems for them too. (there is reason why practically every tournament have rules restricting how many HAs you can have) With Attila I have no problems with HAs, but this thread is about buffing them and buffing them would be very stupid thing to do. They are just fine like they are now, no need to make easy mode for cheap players.

    I dont think you know what a nomad army is... No it isnt an ha spam.

    The thing with ha, is that they are needed to make some factions unique and add new playstyle (nomad warfare, not ha spam).

    CA shouldnt make honorable players pay for the actions of a couple of ****** bags.
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

    god of war

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  • TajlTajl Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 258
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    I dont think you know what a nomad army is... No it isnt an ha spam.

    The thing with ha, is that they are needed to make some factions unique and add new playstyle (nomad warfare, not ha spam).

    CA shouldnt make honorable players pay for the actions of a couple of ****** bags.

    Nothing is stopping you to make what ever build you like. Nomad/HA build isn't just going to be the strongest build around. Which is very good for the MP.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    Tajl wrote: »
    Nothing is stopping you to make what ever build you like. Nomad/HA build isn't just going to be the strongest build around. Which is very good for the MP.

    No its not good for MP. It removes an entire playstyle.

    HA get more kills acting as mele cav than using their amo, its ridiculus.
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

    god of war

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  • TajlTajl Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 258
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    No its not good for MP. It removes an entire playstyle.

    HA get more kills acting as mele cav than using their amo, its ridiculus.

    They can kill lightly armoured units just fine. Just don't shoot heavily armoured units with huge shield from front and of course stay away from enemy missiles. Hunnic HA have better missile damage than any other archers and even when they dont kill, they can make damage. Even now HAs are far from useless. You just cant spam them and expect to win agaisnt balanced army. If they would be any better they would be ultimate spam unit.
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKRegistered Users Posts: 1,136
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    I dont think you know what a nomad army is... No it isnt an ha spam.

    The thing with ha, is that they are needed to make some factions unique and add new playstyle (nomad warfare, not ha spam).

    CA shouldnt make honorable players pay for the actions of a couple of ****** bags.

    The nomads weren't 100% cav. Horse archers will make skirmish builds more viable.
    [WOLF]Diplomatt

    Moderator of www.reddit.com/r/totalwar
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    The nomads weren't 100% cav. Horse archers will make skirmish builds more viable.

    Thats my point. :)
    Tajl wrote: »
    They can kill lightly armoured units just fine. Just don't shoot heavily armoured units with huge shield from front and of course stay away from enemy missiles. Hunnic HA have better missile damage than any other archers and even when they dont kill, they can make damage. Even now HAs are far from useless. You just cant spam them and expect to win agaisnt balanced army. If they would be any better they would be ultimate spam unit.

    Be honnest... Are you trolling? Cause I never saw so much bs.
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

    god of war

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  • AtillaTheGreatAtillaTheGreat Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 15
    edited April 2015
    I demand that you guys fix my horse archers ASAP!!! i conquered Europe with my HA not by my inf men...
  • TajlTajl Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 258
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    Be honnest... Are you trolling? Cause I never saw so much bs.

    Lately i have seen some people to win tournament matches with Huns and it is not all about Uars. Those horse archers can do some serious damage as long as you shoot right targets with them. They can be usefull especially if opponent doens't have much missiles, but they (usually) cant win matches alone and that is exactly how it should be.

    Of course now it actually takes some skill to use them effectively as you really have to decide what you want to shoot.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    Tajl wrote: »
    Lately i have seen some people to win tournament matches with Huns and it is not all about Uars. Those horse archers can do some serious damage as long as you shoot right targets with them. They can be usefull especially if opponent doens't have much missiles, but they (usually) cant win matches alone and that is exactly how it should be.

    Of course now it actually takes some skill to use them effectively as you really have to decide what you want to shoot.

    Ok, you are trolling.

    HA kill more people by acting as a mele cavalry than by using their amo. I can use them, its just that they cant kill what they should with their amo.
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

    god of war

    LIZARDMEN #makelustriagreatagain
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  • TajlTajl Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 258
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    Ok, you are trolling.

    HA kill more people by acting as a mele cavalry than by using their amo. I can use them, its just that they cant kill what they should with their amo.

    I can do just fine with them. If you can't well... problem is not the unit.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    Tajl wrote: »
    I can do just fine with them. If you can't well... problem is not the unit.

    I can use them in mele and get in average 100 for a 400 ha unit fairly well ty for wondering.
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

    god of war

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  • TajlTajl Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 258
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    I can use them in mele and get in average 100 for a 400 ha unit fairly well ty for wondering.

    You have 100-400 kills/HA unit and you want CA to make them stronger? You want to be able to kill whole enemy army with 1 HA or something?
  • jonasneejonasnee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,737
    edited April 2015
    Tajl wrote: »
    You have 100-400 kills/HA unit and you want CA to make them stronger? You want to be able to kill whole enemy army with 1 HA or something?
    #MountedGunners
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  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    Tajl wrote: »
    You have 100-400 kills/HA unit and you want CA to make them stronger? You want to be able to kill whole enemy army with 1 HA or something?

    The problem is that they dont act like ha, nerf their mele capability if you want.

    Do you read my post? I said many times that the problem is that they work as mele cavalry and that reduce the variety of cavalry.

    And its an average of 100 for ha that cost 400 (not 100-400).
    jonasnee wrote: »
    #MountedGunners

    MountedNukes would be better
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

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  • TajlTajl Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 258
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    The problem is that they dont act like ha, nerf their mele capability if you want.

    Do you read my post? I said many times that the problem is that they work as mele cavalry and that reduce the variety of cavalry.

    And its an average of 100 for ha that cost 400 (not 100-400).

    Those 400 cost HA allready have very bad melee stats so that in melee they can only kill ranged units, melee stats for cavalry just cant be much worste than that. 475 Hunnic HAs are little better. But you realize that for any other unit in costing around 400 100 kills very rarely happens. 100 kill average, no way. Cost 400 units are far from elites and they just can't have much more kills than that or they would be far too cost effective and other thing is why you think that HA shoulnt have any melee capasity. I think most of them them were fighting or training to fighting most of their lives, it would be quite strange if they would never train sword use, even if bow was their main weapon. Strict division for troop for being ranged or melee is ahistorical at best.

    If those cheap HAs could kill more they would have to be more expencive, but then they would probably be just another version of Hunnic Devil archers.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    Tajl wrote: »
    Those 400 cost HA allready have very bad melee stats so that in melee they can only kill ranged units, melee stats for cavalry just cant be much worste than that. 475 Hunnic HAs are little better. But you realize that for any other unit in costing around 400 100 kills very rarely happens. 100 kill average, no way. Cost 400 units are far from elites and they just can't have much more kills than that or they would be far too cost effective and other thing is why you think that HA shoulnt have any melee capasity. I think most of them them were fighting or training to fighting most of their lives, it would be quite strange if they would never train sword use, even if bow was their main weapon. Strict division for troop for being ranged or melee is ahistorical at best.

    If those cheap HAs could kill more they would have to be more expencive, but then they would probably be just another version of Hunnic Devil archers.

    They can kill any infantry on the charge if you know what you're doing. The ting is that they shouldnt and that their killing potential should come from their bows.

    Now they're just a cheep mele cavalry.
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

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  • TajlTajl Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 258
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    They can kill any infantry on the charge if you know what you're doing. The ting is that they shouldnt and that their killing potential should come from their bows.

    Now they're just a cheep mele cavalry.

    Very bad melee cavalry. They are very light so their charge only kills few and then they are slaughtered. With missiles then can kill 1½ units of Royal Huscarles for example.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    Tajl wrote: »
    Very bad melee cavalry. They are very light so their charge only kills few and then they are slaughtered. With missiles then can kill 1½ units of Royal Huscarles for example.

    Royal huscarles is one of the weakest unit vs missiles.

    And no they do can kill many on the charge. You just dont know how to use them (as mele cav).
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

    god of war

    LIZARDMEN #makelustriagreatagain
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  • TajlTajl Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 258
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    Royal huscarles is one of the weakest unit vs missiles.

    And no they do can kill many on the charge. You just dont know how to use them (as mele cav).

    They are very light cavalry with horrible melee stats. If you use all their missiles and then get lot of kills them as melee cav and get average 100 kills then I have to ask what you are shooting, testudo maybe? They only get more than few melee kills when they charge non braced troops or light missiles, any melee cavalry will slaughter them in melee and if you play MP and your opponent lets you charge many of his troops down with them its not because your great skill but because of your opponents huge fail.

    And yes Royal Huscarles are good example of units you should shoot with them. Expencive and weak agaisnt missiles = perfect target.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    Tajl wrote: »
    They are very light cavalry with horrible melee stats. If you use all their missiles and then get lot of kills them as melee cav and get average 100 kills then I have to ask what you are shooting, testudo maybe? They only get more than few melee kills when they charge non braced troops or light missiles, any melee cavalry will slaughter them in melee and if you play MP and your opponent lets you charge many of his troops down with them its not because your great skill but because of your opponents huge fail.

    And yes Royal Huscarles are good example of units you should shoot with them. Expencive and weak agaisnt missiles = perfect target.

    You havent use an ha in this game dont you?
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

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  • TajlTajl Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 258
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    You havent use an ha in this game dont you?

    Yes I have used HA. I only use them when I play with Huns, but when i play with Huns i always use them. And I think their HAs are well balanced. Other factions have only useless HAs, but Huns have good enough.
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 228
    edited April 2015
    If you can keep them alive for late game with most of ammo, even 2 HA can do so much dammage.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    If you can keep them alive for late game with most of ammo, even 2 HA can do so much dammage.

    Any cavalry is deadly in lagte game.
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

    god of war

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