Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Why the heck do units with regeneration end battles with half health?

Al_Ka_PwnAl_Ka_Pwn MemberRegistered Users Posts: 241
So in the undead stream is shows the varghulf sitting with like half health after a battle ended, but the unit has regeneration, why the heck would it be at half health once it gets back to the campaign map?

If you are trying to play the game optimally it just encourages you to drag out any battle you're going to win just so your varghulf can be at full health back on the campaign map. It's also dumb because if a varghulf can go back to full health during the duration of a single battle why would he not go back to full health after presumably weeks of marching?
«134

Comments

  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,289
    Al_Ka_Pwn said:

    So in the undead stream is shows the varghulf sitting with like half health after a battle ended, but the unit has regeneration, why the heck would it be at half health once it gets back to the campaign map?

    If you are trying to play the game optimally it just encourages you to drag out any battle you're going to win just so your varghulf can be at full health back on the campaign map. It's also dumb because if a varghulf can go back to full health during the duration of a single battle why would he not go back to full health after presumably weeks of marching?

    Not exactly put politely, but ultimately a fairly decent point! I'd not even thought about that.
    -Forum Terms and Conditions: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest
    -New Rules: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/287645/new-forum-rules#latest
    -Rules FAQ: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/287650/total-war-forum-faq#latest
    -Using all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Please don't.
    -5.7 Summon a moderator if someone seems to be out of line, or use the report button. Do NOT become another party to misbehaviour
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,065
    You can still kill them. A dead troll, properly dealt with, doesn't get back up. Presumably the individuals regenerate, but dead ones have to replenish after the battle.
  • TyrionLamperougeTyrionLamperouge Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 268
    Agree with the op, all that unit that have regeneration should be full health in campaign map after battle.
  • falconlord5falconlord5 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 946
    Because regen takes time. It's not instant, in either battle or campaign.

    Making the replenishment rate faster for units with regen in campaign, sure. But having them instantly back to full right after a battle is silly.
    I accept Godzilla as my lord and saviour.
  • centar6centar6 New Mexico USARegistered Users Posts: 165
    edited May 2016
    This is a valid point in my mind. If a unit can regenerate a percentage of it's health over real time in a battle it should either be full health or if severely wounded (i.e 1 or 2 hp left) should be full health after only 1 turn has elapsed.

    Of course this should apply to all units that regen health.

    Thanks. :)
    A good plan violently executed today is far better than a perfect plan executed next week.
    Violence has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.
  • madwapitimadwapiti Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 602

    Agree with the op, all that unit that have regeneration should be full health in campaign map after battle.

    That would be serious over powered. You could just create an army of ultra-powerful regeneration monsters (remember that through "The Hunger" Lords can regenerate too). Let players make that decision on the battle map, but if you're gonna auto-resolve you'll suffer the penalty. Otherwise, you could fight a hopeless battle against the VC, lose and then have to face them again the same turn.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,289
    az88 said:

    You can still kill them. A dead troll, properly dealt with, doesn't get back up. Presumably the individuals regenerate, but dead ones have to replenish after the battle.

    This is true. But on the other hand, I'm more concerned about something like the Varghulf. Varghulfs are a single unit that regenerate pretty quickly in battle but do not fully regenerate on the campaign map.

    Trolls not regenerating instantly makes sense though, if you lost troops.

    But really, this is kinda nitpicking, I suppose.
    -Forum Terms and Conditions: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest
    -New Rules: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/287645/new-forum-rules#latest
    -Rules FAQ: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/287650/total-war-forum-faq#latest
    -Using all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Please don't.
    -5.7 Summon a moderator if someone seems to be out of line, or use the report button. Do NOT become another party to misbehaviour
  • DalakhDalakh Senior Member FranceRegistered Users Posts: 1,937
    Inscreased replenishment/hp regen on the campaign map would be good enough for me.
    "We shall strike down our foes with sharp steel and cold hearts. The weak die so that the strong prevail and none shall be spared. Then and only then will our enemies know the true meaning of fear."

    — Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth
  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,183
    It is called balance.

    Else we will have the return of my op warhound armies of Rome.

    Send all dogs in then retreat.

    Attack against with full warhounds imagine that only with elite units never having to replenish.
  • Al_Ka_PwnAl_Ka_Pwn Member Registered Users Posts: 241

    Because regen takes time. It's not instant, in either battle or campaign.

    Making the replenishment rate faster for units with regen in campaign, sure. But having them instantly back to full right after a battle is silly.


    a battle has a time limit of 60 minutes, based on the footage we've seen, a varghulf will go from half health to full health in about 5 minutes. It's not instant, but in the course of one battle in a time of about 10 minutes you get your nearly dead varghulf back to full health.

    This is dumb b/c if there is one unit of soldiers left camped on a hill, you are best off making a sandwhich or something while your varghulf regenerates to full health. I don't see how you could possibly defend this as anything other than idiotic.
  • WeisskreuzWeisskreuz Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 756
    Did you guys ever heard the word balance? And why should they be full health after a battle anyway? You simply switch maps its not like any time passes at all.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,734
    This issue has nothing to do with balance.

    This has to do with the optimal play being waiting around stupidly for 5 minutes (lets say 1 extra minute at 4x speed) for your monster to regenerate to full health in a battle that you've already won.

    If there are not limiters on battle regeneration and this is the case, it is indeed terrible design. You never want optimal strategy in a game to be waiting around being unable to continue play because it gives the most numerical benefits.
    Space Frontier is a sci-fi themed board game I've designed for 2-4 players. Please take a look and enjoy our free Print-and-Play at FreezeDriedGames.com

    If you have any questions about tactics or mechanics in Total War Warhammer multiplayer, feel free to PM me.
  • octavian1127octavian1127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,278
    I noticed the Varghulf had massive regen on the campaign map. It came out of some battles with almost no hp and was back to full in two turns.
    |Sith|Octavian
  • CantilaCantila SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 863

    I noticed the Varghulf had massive regen on the campaign map. It came out of some battles with almost no hp and was back to full in two turns.

    Yes, they already have increased regen on campaign map.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,289

    I noticed the Varghulf had massive regen on the campaign map. It came out of some battles with almost no hp and was back to full in two turns.

    Oh, then we're probably fine. Not 100% regen, but what can you do? Gotta balance some things.
    -Forum Terms and Conditions: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest
    -New Rules: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/287645/new-forum-rules#latest
    -Rules FAQ: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/287650/total-war-forum-faq#latest
    -Using all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Please don't.
    -5.7 Summon a moderator if someone seems to be out of line, or use the report button. Do NOT become another party to misbehaviour
  • Al_Ka_PwnAl_Ka_Pwn Member Registered Users Posts: 241

    I noticed the Varghulf had massive regen on the campaign map. It came out of some battles with almost no hp and was back to full in two turns.

    only when they went into a city, it was still a crawl when outside of a settlement.
  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,183
    Kayosiv said:

    This issue has nothing to do with balance.

    This has to do with the optimal play being waiting around stupidly for 5 minutes (lets say 1 extra minute at 4x speed) for your monster to regenerate to full health in a battle that you've already won.

    If there are not limiters on battle regeneration and this is the case, it is indeed terrible design. You never want optimal strategy in a game to be waiting around being unable to continue play because it gives the most numerical benefits.

    So your suggestion is to eliminate all regeneration? That is the only option if you don't like the way it is now.
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,065
    CnConrad said:

    Kayosiv said:

    This issue has nothing to do with balance.

    This has to do with the optimal play being waiting around stupidly for 5 minutes (lets say 1 extra minute at 4x speed) for your monster to regenerate to full health in a battle that you've already won.

    If there are not limiters on battle regeneration and this is the case, it is indeed terrible design. You never want optimal strategy in a game to be waiting around being unable to continue play because it gives the most numerical benefits.

    So your suggestion is to eliminate all regeneration? That is the only option if you don't like the way it is now.
    I thought he said he thinks battle regeneration should be limited. Basically you'd only be able to heal a percentage of your lost health, regardless of time lapsed.

    Honestly, I'd assumed that was already the system.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,734
    CnConrad said:



    So your suggestion is to eliminate all regeneration? That is the only option if you don't like the way it is now.

    Um, the complete opposite actually.

    If sitting in battle and regenerating is an effective way to get a unit to full, it might as well mimic that on the campaign map to save the player the wasted time of having to do so.
    Space Frontier is a sci-fi themed board game I've designed for 2-4 players. Please take a look and enjoy our free Print-and-Play at FreezeDriedGames.com

    If you have any questions about tactics or mechanics in Total War Warhammer multiplayer, feel free to PM me.
  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,183
    Kayosiv said:

    CnConrad said:



    So your suggestion is to eliminate all regeneration? That is the only option if you don't like the way it is now.

    Um, the complete opposite actually.

    If sitting in battle and regenerating is an effective way to get a unit to full, it might as well mimic that on the campaign map to save the player the wasted time of having to do so.
    See what you just said is the most ridiculous notion I have ever heard concerning balancing.

    That means if you have an army with nothing but regenerating units you never have to stop attacking and you can steamroller the entire map.

    See my point about super OP war dogs from Rome 2. A single stack of war dogs were more effective than a stack costing 4x as much because they regenerated fully after every battle if you knew what you were doing.

    It eliminates one of the biggest checks on player growth.
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,065
    Kayosiv said:

    CnConrad said:



    So your suggestion is to eliminate all regeneration? That is the only option if you don't like the way it is now.

    Um, the complete opposite actually.

    If sitting in battle and regenerating is an effective way to get a unit to full, it might as well mimic that on the campaign map to save the player the wasted time of having to do so.
    Someone is going to need to tell me how regeneration is implemented, then. If my unit of trolls loses 4 trolls to missile fire, and I hide them in a wood, do I get my 4 trolls back? Or do I get back the maximum hit points that would be applicable to the other trolls, but 4 stay dead?

    If a single model unit can regenerate 100% of its health, that does seem like bad design for a game like this. If your trolls who died across the battlefield can magically rejoin a unit, that would be even more odd.

    I'd expected there to be a cap on regeneration in a battle, and for dead members of units to stay down.
  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,183
    az88 said:

    CnConrad said:

    Kayosiv said:

    This issue has nothing to do with balance.

    This has to do with the optimal play being waiting around stupidly for 5 minutes (lets say 1 extra minute at 4x speed) for your monster to regenerate to full health in a battle that you've already won.

    If there are not limiters on battle regeneration and this is the case, it is indeed terrible design. You never want optimal strategy in a game to be waiting around being unable to continue play because it gives the most numerical benefits.

    So your suggestion is to eliminate all regeneration? That is the only option if you don't like the way it is now.
    I thought he said he thinks battle regeneration should be limited. Basically you'd only be able to heal a percentage of your lost health, regardless of time lapsed.

    Honestly, I'd assumed that was already the system.
    That's the only reasonable compromise I can see. Make it so that once they get to 50% on the battle map it doesn't matter what their final hp ends up being. They come out of the battle at 50%
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,289
    CnConrad said:

    Kayosiv said:

    CnConrad said:



    So your suggestion is to eliminate all regeneration? That is the only option if you don't like the way it is now.

    Um, the complete opposite actually.

    If sitting in battle and regenerating is an effective way to get a unit to full, it might as well mimic that on the campaign map to save the player the wasted time of having to do so.
    See what you just said is the most ridiculous notion I have ever heard concerning balancing.

    That means if you have an army with nothing but regenerating units you never have to stop attacking and you can steamroller the entire map.

    See my point about super OP war dogs from Rome 2. A single stack of war dogs were more effective than a stack costing 4x as much because they regenerated fully after every battle if you knew what you were doing.

    It eliminates one of the biggest checks on player growth.
    War Dogs things were multiple troop units though. I suppose you could say that regeneration doesn't fully heal actual wounds...

    But the thing is, as it stands, you could always just wait around on the battle map for your Varghulf to heal up.
    -Forum Terms and Conditions: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest
    -New Rules: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/287645/new-forum-rules#latest
    -Rules FAQ: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/287650/total-war-forum-faq#latest
    -Using all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Please don't.
    -5.7 Summon a moderator if someone seems to be out of line, or use the report button. Do NOT become another party to misbehaviour
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,065
    CnConrad said:

    az88 said:

    CnConrad said:

    Kayosiv said:

    This issue has nothing to do with balance.

    This has to do with the optimal play being waiting around stupidly for 5 minutes (lets say 1 extra minute at 4x speed) for your monster to regenerate to full health in a battle that you've already won.

    If there are not limiters on battle regeneration and this is the case, it is indeed terrible design. You never want optimal strategy in a game to be waiting around being unable to continue play because it gives the most numerical benefits.

    So your suggestion is to eliminate all regeneration? That is the only option if you don't like the way it is now.
    I thought he said he thinks battle regeneration should be limited. Basically you'd only be able to heal a percentage of your lost health, regardless of time lapsed.

    Honestly, I'd assumed that was already the system.
    That's the only reasonable compromise I can see. Make it so that once they get to 50% on the battle map it doesn't matter what their final hp ends up being. They come out of the battle at 50%
    Do we have the ins and outs of registration in the game? Do we actually know for certain how it works yet, or are we guessing from the vids?
  • madwapitimadwapiti Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 602
    az88 said:

    Kayosiv said:

    CnConrad said:



    So your suggestion is to eliminate all regeneration? That is the only option if you don't like the way it is now.

    Um, the complete opposite actually.

    If sitting in battle and regenerating is an effective way to get a unit to full, it might as well mimic that on the campaign map to save the player the wasted time of having to do so.
    Someone is going to need to tell me how regeneration is implemented, then. If my unit of trolls loses 4 trolls to missile fire, and I hide them in a wood, do I get my 4 trolls back? Or do I get back the maximum hit points that would be applicable to the other trolls, but 4 stay dead?

    If a single model unit can regenerate 100% of its health, that does seem like bad design for a game like this. If your trolls who died across the battlefield can magically rejoin a unit, that would be even more odd.

    I'd expected there to be a cap on regeneration in a battle, and for dead members of units to stay down.
    Well we know you're right on the first point. If you enter the battle with 10 trolls, lose 6 in combat, and withdraw the remaining 4 to regenerate (for a while in battle), you'll only regain a portion of their total health (up to the full amount on the remaining 4). While they show the total HP of UNITS in Warhammer, each model has it's own health value (regardless of whether its a unit, model, or monstrous unit).

    What some people are suggesting is that you regain the remaining 6 units out of combat on the campaign map. While this may make sense for single models with the regen ability, it certainly doesn't make sense for multiple.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 15,289

    az88 said:

    Kayosiv said:

    CnConrad said:



    So your suggestion is to eliminate all regeneration? That is the only option if you don't like the way it is now.

    Um, the complete opposite actually.

    If sitting in battle and regenerating is an effective way to get a unit to full, it might as well mimic that on the campaign map to save the player the wasted time of having to do so.
    Someone is going to need to tell me how regeneration is implemented, then. If my unit of trolls loses 4 trolls to missile fire, and I hide them in a wood, do I get my 4 trolls back? Or do I get back the maximum hit points that would be applicable to the other trolls, but 4 stay dead?

    If a single model unit can regenerate 100% of its health, that does seem like bad design for a game like this. If your trolls who died across the battlefield can magically rejoin a unit, that would be even more odd.

    I'd expected there to be a cap on regeneration in a battle, and for dead members of units to stay down.
    Well we know you're right on the first point. If you enter the battle with 10 trolls, lose 6 in combat, and withdraw the remaining 4 to regenerate (for a while in battle), you'll only regain a portion of their total health (up to the full amount on the remaining 4). While they show the total HP of UNITS in Warhammer, each model has it's own health value (regardless of whether its a unit, model, or monstrous unit).

    What some people are suggesting is that you regain the remaining 6 units out of combat on the campaign map. While this may make sense for single models with the regen ability, it certainly doesn't make sense for multiple.
    I agree, it doesn't make sense for units with more than one model to completely recouver if they lose troops in the unit.

    But the Varghulf is a single unit. It has regeneration. What do we do with that?
    -Forum Terms and Conditions: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest
    -New Rules: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/287645/new-forum-rules#latest
    -Rules FAQ: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/287650/total-war-forum-faq#latest
    -Using all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Please don't.
    -5.7 Summon a moderator if someone seems to be out of line, or use the report button. Do NOT become another party to misbehaviour
  • GrimblueGrimblue Registered Users Posts: 893
    I don't like how they pick their nose. I think it is stupid so it needs to be changed
  • epic_159733007811cHJwei4epic_159733007811cHJwei4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,549
    Honestly I would personally limit regeneration to a % of your max health that would "consumed" at the end of the battle which is when the Victory or Defeat screen pops up, not when the you click end battle. In other words, I would cut out the attempt to game the system but still reflect that "hey this creature can regenerate".

    Attempts to delay the battle so your monster can heal will likely cause you additional losses to regular infantry units and won't gain you much however we still give the regenerating monster a "heal" bonus so you don't feel cheated.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,734
    CnConrad said:


    That means if you have an army with nothing but regenerating units you never have to stop attacking and you can steamroller the entire map.

    This would be true regardless. The issue is not that units with regeneration do or do not gain hit points back. They do. The issue is, will a player have to artificially lengthen a battle that is already over in order to gain back HP for his surviving regenerating units? I would hope no, and that it would be accounted for automatically on the campaign map.


    What some people are suggesting is that you regain the remaining 6 units out of combat on the campaign map. While this may make sense for single models with the regen ability, it certainly doesn't make sense for multiple.

    From what I can see, literally no one is suggesting that.
    Space Frontier is a sci-fi themed board game I've designed for 2-4 players. Please take a look and enjoy our free Print-and-Play at FreezeDriedGames.com

    If you have any questions about tactics or mechanics in Total War Warhammer multiplayer, feel free to PM me.
  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,183
    Kayosiv said:

    CnConrad said:


    That means if you have an army with nothing but regenerating units you never have to stop attacking and you can steamroller the entire map.

    This would be true regardless. The issue is not that units with regeneration do or do not gain hit points back. They do. The issue is, will a player have to artificially lengthen a battle that is already over in order to gain back HP for his surviving regenerating units? I would hope no, and that it would be accounted for automatically on the campaign map.


    .
    That would not be true regardless.

    It is very likely that the AI will not simply stand still twiddling it's thumbs and let you fly your monster unit off into a corner to heal.

    It will likely attack a different unit. It will either kill that unit or rout itself ending the battle.

    Assuming healing stops once battle ends you will gain nothing by flying your monster into a corner.

    ( nonexistent) problem solved.
Sign In or Register to comment.