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The Empire is OP in battle. Plain & simple.

VickValoureVickValoure Junior MemberAtlanta,GaRegistered Users Posts: 224
edited June 2016 in General Discussion
After much experimenting, I've come to realize a major flaw (or intention) in the battle system.

1. The Empire is OP in battle. Tested this against every faction numerous times over with every conceivable unit arrangement , placement, tactic etc.

2. Though I've beaten others who use the Empire, that is only because they used the wrong set-up. However, there are a few Empire set-up's that very few other factions can match. Yes, even VC.
Only Chaos or Greenskins come close, but nine times outta ten they fall just short.

No matter the set up. Spam this, balance that...it just dont matter when it comes to beating the Empire with the right set-up.

3. The Problem is this;
These few Empire set ups are seriously OP because of the Karl Franz - Witch Hunter - Halbred - gunners - DemiGryph combo.

And if you dont use VC, the other player will surely bring DeathClaw, which means you lose.

Because even if you take out Franz, you must still deal with the Witch Hunter, the Demigryphs & probably the outriders which often turn the tide of battle because whilst trying to take out the demigryphs, the Empire gunners &/or outriders are ripping you to pieces. This is because they DONT BREAK after taking out Franz.

Even with Terror units, the Empire soldiers do break, but return time & time again. And this means that the other Empire soldiers who you were finally defeating regain some courage & fight on even harder. And if you beat them, you then must hope their are no gunners who have returned to shoot your seriously weakened force to bits.

All leading to heart breaking defeat after defeat. This stinks,

I have 50 + quick battle wins. But when facing the Empire, I have to choose the empire also. This is because all the good players know.

Even if you spam VC fliers and attack all at one, If the other player is any good, he knows to stack the Empire halbreds, & demigryphs halbreds, two guns & a witch hunter. And, the witch hunter will eventually kill Manfried (or any general with "accusation hex" ), while you're dealing with Franz or aiding soldiers etc. And even if you have heroes of your own, who you think can take out the witch hunter. WRONG.
If the Demigryphs dont kill'em, the guns will. And if they dont, all the halbreds who have at least 25 men, often hold out to the bitter end, returning time after time, if at least one demigryph unit remains.
Mainly the demigryphs & witch hunter are the most OP.

Everytime I use the Empire, I win.
If I dont, I lose.
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Comments

  • VickValoureVickValoure Junior Member Atlanta,GaRegistered Users Posts: 224
    When playing as the Empire, facing the VC flier spam, one needs only to stack halbreds & demigryph halbreds. Form them into a square with a gunner or two in the middle along with your witch hunter & GAME OVER.

    The VC will break eventually because of the demigyphs & witch hunter. Who are protected behind a wall of halbreds that most of your flying monsters cant break anyhow.

    In the beginning of the battle it may look as if the Empire will break& flee for good. But if they do, they dont go far & absolutely will return to shoot you down or rejoin the demigryphs (who can chop anything to bits, even a giant if given a few charges)

    I think the answer to this problem, is making it where the Empire units dont return so often. Once they break twice, they should leave for good. This will even things out a bit.
  • bronhomsbronhoms Registered Users Posts: 1,330
    alex33 said:

    Somehow i have the feeling that every faction is overpowerd in this game...

    no one thinks that

  • busa27busa27 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,744
    The only "issue" about empire I think is demigryph unit. Its simply too strong.

    Demigryph are faaaaaaaaaar better than reiksguard knights and only cost a few more.
  • alex33alex33 Registered Users Posts: 1,094
    bronhoms said:

    alex33 said:

    Somehow i have the feeling that every faction is overpowerd in this game...

    no one thinks that
    Well every 2 days or so there is a new thread about a faction that is "overpowerd" this one was actually above another thread that said that dwarfs are overpowerd. I'm sure i've allready seen a thread about every single faction and reasons why it's overpowerd
  • Groene_TheeGroene_Thee Registered Users Posts: 16
    alex33 said:

    Somehow i have the feeling that every faction is overpowerd in this game...

    No, only Empire is.
  • WNxDarkRavenWNxDarkRaven Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 51
    The only way to prove a faction is really OP is to look at win-loss statistics for all races of the top-level players after the meta-game has had time to develop.

    If you can prove that, at that point it's time to go and find out why they are OP. I hope CA doesn't go to knee-jerk nerfing and buffing because of threads on the forum, but that they make their homework.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 17,635
    alex33 said:

    bronhoms said:

    alex33 said:

    Somehow i have the feeling that every faction is overpowerd in this game...

    no one thinks that
    Well every 2 days or so there is a new thread about a faction that is "overpowerd" this one was actually above another thread that said that dwarfs are overpowerd. I'm sure i've allready seen a thread about every single faction and reasons why it's overpowerd
    To be fair the debate about MP is actually a lot more valid. It's agreed that SP is balanced, with only a small minority of people thinking there's any major issues with it. MP uses a different balance system, and because it's MP players quickly find which units are underpriced and those units become the meta.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • creatingthesilkroadcreatingthesilkroad Registered Users Posts: 107
    It would be almost impossible to balance this game in MP. Tbh that's not where the bread and butter is so to me it's not even a big deal.

    Demigryphs are overpowered though you gotta be completely delusional to think they aren't
  • DorielDoriel Registered Users Posts: 193
    I wonder what type of army comp the main poster is using as VC in this match up. I personally never found Empire op when playing VC.

    Btw against VC Empire players generaly bring the Light Wizard not the Witch Hunter, at least in the games i played.
  • SilveticaSilvetica Registered Users Posts: 416

    The only way to prove a faction is really OP is to look at win-loss statistics for all races of the top-level players after the meta-game has had time to develop.

    If you can prove that, at that point it's time to go and find out why they are OP. I hope CA doesn't go to knee-jerk nerfing and buffing because of threads on the forum, but that they make their homework.

    This.
    At the moment it seems like the top players are favouring empire and VC with maybe VC having the edge.
    Sounds like dwarfs, brettonia and greenskins are all situationally good and that chaos is maybe overpriced slightly but it is still early days.
    Not surprising that the main balance dev went on holiday straight after release.
    Busiest time= the months b4 release and then 3-4 weeks after release when the meta has settled out.
    Considering the complexity of balancing such diverse factions it is kinda amazing that the balance is so good at release tbh considering the propensity of gamers to try and break everything they touch through the medium of cheese.
  • DwarfMasterRaceDwarfMasterRace Registered Users Posts: 1,960
    I agree. The problem is the Empire doesn't have any real weaknesses - they are mobile, they are well-armoured, they have great firepower and decent morale. They are like a spiky porcupine with a bazooka.

    The other races have clear weaknesses to exploit.
  • Nyanko73Nyanko73 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,351
    busa27 said:

    The only "issue" about empire I think is demigryph unit. Its simply too strong.

    Demigryph are faaaaaaaaaar better than reiksguard knights and only cost a few more.

    Yeah well that's only because Dragon Knights are not yet in.

    Team Yennefer

    "A blinding flash materialised into a transparent sphere, and inside it loomed a shape, assuming contours and shapes at frightening speed. Dandelion recognised it at once. He knew those wild, black curls and the obsidian star on a velvet ribbon. What he didn’t know and had never seen before was the face. It was a face of rage and fury, the face of the goddess of vengeance, destruction and death." - Time of contempt
  • ReDoReDo Registered Users Posts: 63
    I think brettonia is op with the flying cows. ;)
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,321
    edited June 2016
    alex33 said:

    Somehow i have the feeling that every faction is overpowerd in this game...

    This.

    Also if the whiners spent half the time learning the basics that they spend on whining we wouldnt get these threads
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • Rochaid29Rochaid29 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,385
    edited June 2016
    I don't think this game is balanced around "multiplayer"

    Don't try to make this an E sport...Because it's NOT.

    You have literally hundreds of games where factions and units are heavily invested (balanced, re-balanced, nerfed)for you to satisfy your "multiplayer urges"...go play Starcraft for example.
  • HoneyBunHoneyBun Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,810
    You people ruined Rome 2 with this nonsense

    40K Total War ... oh go on ... you know you want to.

  • seienchinseienchin Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,571
    HoneyBun said:

    You people ruined Rome 2 with this nonsense

    Rome2 ruined by people asking for balancing... that is a very "controversial" pow I would say...
  • Rochaid29Rochaid29 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,385
    edited June 2016
  • DalakhDalakh Senior Member FranceRegistered Users Posts: 1,937
    edited June 2016
    Demigryph and Accuse are the main problems. Demigryph are if not straight up OP at the very least massively underpriced. Cheap infantry murders most expansive monsters pound for pound and empire don't have monsters except the one uberOP unit. That's another reason they are so good.

    In general I feel non magic pool related abilities like accuse, general buffs, etc should be significantly weaker than spells of any kind because those are massively limited by the pool.
    "We shall strike down our foes with sharp steel and cold hearts. The weak die so that the strong prevail and none shall be spared. Then and only then will our enemies know the true meaning of fear."

    — Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth
  • creatingthesilkroadcreatingthesilkroad Registered Users Posts: 107
    HoneyBun said:

    You people ruined Rome 2 with this nonsense

    Rome 2 ruined itself with its game breaking bugs and half assed launch
    Rochaid29 said:

    I don't think this game is balanced around "multiplayer"

    Don't try to make this an E sport...Because it's NOT.

    You have literally hundreds of games where factions and units are heavily invested (balanced, re-balanced, nerfed)for you to satisfy your "multiplayer urges"...go play Starcraft for example.


    I also strongly agree with this, this isn't StarCraft this is different than any other RTS out there. It would be impossible to balance this with this many factions and units. Even harder now that we have Special agents in the Army itself.

    Hell in FoS most of the MP matches were just a stack of rockets and mortars
  • Galvanized IronGalvanized Iron Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,058
    Rochaid29 said:

    I don't think this game is balanced around "multiplayer"

    Don't try to make this an E sport...Because it's NOT.

    You have literally hundreds of games where factions and units are heavily invested (balanced, re-balanced, nerfed)for you to satisfy your "multiplayer urges"...go play Starcraft for example.

    That's an extremely dumb argument. Starcraft is not an adequate substitute for TW. People want to play TW in MP because it is the only game series that actually allow you to challenge your friends in actual field battles. Therefore balance in TW MP is the only way to satisfy those "multiplayer urges".
    |Sith|Lord|Galvanized Iron
  • DolorousEddDolorousEdd Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 555
    edited June 2016
    Single player campaign battles works. Total War is primarily a single player game.
    If we really have to balance it for multiplayer, then they've got to find a way to separate single from multi, otherwise it will just break the main part of this game.
    Team Dwarfs
    Team Bretonnia
    Team Crooked Moon
    Team Cult of Pleasure
    Team Clan Pestilens
  • Galvanized IronGalvanized Iron Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,058
    edited June 2016

    Single player campaign battles works. Total War is primarily a single player game.
    If we really have to balance it for multiplayer, then they've got to find a way to separate single from multi, otherwise it will just break the main part of this game.

    That depends on the nature of the changes really. For example nerfing Birdcat Knights would be beneficial for SP also as they make the Empire campaign way too easy.

    But I think some changes like unit caps or tweaks to magic should be restricted to MP only.
    |Sith|Lord|Galvanized Iron
  • ophareophare Registered Users Posts: 12
    Demis are buff! I think every faction has some good things going for it, Chaos is a tad pricey imo however.

    I mainly play online as dwarves, and I honestly have not lost yet. Could be the competition I am facing though. I think I play them well.



  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,321
    BoonOP said:

    Demis are buff! I think every faction has some good things going for it, Chaos is a tad pricey imo however.

    I mainly play online as dwarves, and I honestly have not lost yet. Could be the competition I am facing though. I think I play them well.



    You see when the whiners lose they dont blame their lack of skills but rather game balance.
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • odsy2odsy2 Registered Users Posts: 716
    Its the stupid demigriphs that need nerfing there is no cost effective counter to them with most factions. U can fate of buna them but its either that or general snipe and general snipe is a lot more effecient way of using the magic imo.

    I haven't really found a cost effective way of countering them as the dwarfs at all.
    2 bimstone gyrocopters will eventually take 1 demigriph out but they will get a few charges off first plus 2 brimstone copters cost 1600 and the demigriph is 1400.

    2 thunderers will take one out but try keeping them firing when demigriphs have smashed through your flank like its not there. They will literally plough through a unit of iron breakers then straight through your thunderers and then they'll keep going if the other plyer pulls them through. the main thing is that they knock half the unit so far you have to try to reform the unit before you fire and they have charged again by the time the unit has reformed. They will just keep smashing through your entire force, its chaos.

    I have beaten empire forces with them but its really down to them mismanaging
  • UdorothUdoroth Registered Users Posts: 143
    I dont understand


    why are you all dismissing multiplayer balance as unimportant

    Its just as integral a part of this game as the single player campaign

  • LongshanksLongshanks Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 373
    I dont have issues fighting the Empire with both Chaos and The Greenskins

    With WoC I make sure I field at least some dragon ogre units and chaos spawn. the spawn keeps the empire units busy whilst my infantry moves forward. the victories are not pretty, but it usualy works. having a wizard with you usualy helps in my opinion.

    Greenskins I usualy make a mad dash from all sides and keep WAAAGH! armies close. I try to break there lines with brute force, and if that doestn work, ill try to keep their gunpowder units busy.
    Get 'em boyz!
    Dakka dakka dakka!
    WAAAGH! THE ORCS!
    WAAAGH!
  • mrindigo00mrindigo00 Registered Users Posts: 104
    alex33 said:

    Somehow i have the feeling that every faction is overpowerd in this game...

    Only Empire is.
    I had been saying over and over again, the ENTIRE Empire roster is OP in BOTH MP and SP.

    Every faction has strengths in some aspects, but the Empire is good at EVERYTHING.
    This Empire roster needs serious nerfing, from the demis and heros down to the swords and spears.
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