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Adressing the issue with Demigryph Knights

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  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,604
    edited June 2016


    And if someone faces empire and brings tons of spears because of demigryphs and then faces no cav well that isnt unfair at all.

    Can't say I agree with this statement. Imo the main problem with demis is that they are good in too many situations while being bad only in handful of situations. Most other units have more counters or softcounters while countering much less stuff themselves. It's a problem on its own right. Basically hence my suggestions of somehow making halberd demis worse vs regular infantry and lance demis worse vs other cav while keeping the rest the same. Lance demis should be about equal to chaos/grail knights for the cost. Halberd demis should beat other cav and monsters but lose to greatswords and the like for the cost.

    That is absurd.

    If you chose to go heavy in an area, for example cavalry, then you risk having the enemy have lots of spears and it will be hard.


    That is what makes army choice actually interesting
    How exactly is this absurd? Most other units in the game do not force you to bring their hardcounters. It's nothing like: "oh, he has hammerers! I must bring handgunners to counter". Most units have a wide array of soft and hard counters.

    If you want cavalry to be a special snowflake unit then at least make other cav as versatile, e.g. add AP to chaos knights, grail knights and black knights at least.

    If looking at halberd demis, I also do not think +50% damage to large is a fair trade for a shield (which mostly helps vs AP missiles , as non AP ones do no damage to 130 armour anyway) and 10 charge. They are still almost as good against everything that lance demis are good against.

    It's pretty obvious that demis are cost effective against much wider array of units than other cav.

    How many tournament winners had demigryphs, that you think are so hard to counter, in their lists?

    Here is a hint:

    NONE

    Err? which tourney do you speak of?

    Here's ESL 1on1 https://www.twitch.tv/totalwarofficial/v/70683183. Lots of players used demis, I think they were capped at 2, they are easy to contain with this cap. Still, last game imp vs imp, 2 demis on both sides. Granted, I think players decided to go for mirror matches for the finals to be more fair, but anyway, even when capped, pretty much any imp player used 2 demis with halberds. I've also seen imp lists beating VC and vice versa. It's hard to say which faction won, cause most players switched factions to be fair. But anyway, if capped, demis are not difficult to contain. I would not mind if cap of 2 would be official, this would fix the problem too without changing any stats.
    Post edited by MadDemiurg on
  • concmapconcmap Registered Users Posts: 255
    Demis are too good for there price. Everyone knows it. That is all.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 11,088


    And if someone faces empire and brings tons of spears because of demigryphs and then faces no cav well that isnt unfair at all.

    Can't say I agree with this statement. Imo the main problem with demis is that they are good in too many situations while being bad only in handful of situations. Most other units have more counters or softcounters while countering much less stuff themselves. It's a problem on its own right. Basically hence my suggestions of somehow making halberd demis worse vs regular infantry and lance demis worse vs other cav while keeping the rest the same. Lance demis should be about equal to chaos/grail knights for the cost. Halberd demis should beat other cav and monsters but lose to greatswords and the like for the cost.

    That is absurd.

    If you chose to go heavy in an area, for example cavalry, then you risk having the enemy have lots of spears and it will be hard.


    That is what makes army choice actually interesting
    How exactly is this absurd? Most other units in the game do not force you to bring their hardcounters. It's nothing like: "oh, he has hammerers! I must bring handgunners to counter". Most units have a wide array of soft and hard counters.

    If you want cavalry to be a special snowflake unit then at least make other cav as versatile, e.g. add AP to chaos knights, grail knights and black knights at least.

    If looking at halberd demis, I also do not think +50% damage to large is a fair trade for a shield (which mostly helps vs AP missiles , as non AP ones do no damage to 130 armour anyway) and 10 charge. They are still almost as good against everything that lance demis are good against.

    It's pretty obvious that demis are cost effective against much wider array of units than other cav.

    How many tournament winners had demigryphs, that you think are so hard to counter, in their lists?

    Here is a hint:

    NONE

    Err? which tourney do you speak of?

    Here's ESL 1on1 https://www.twitch.tv/totalwarofficial/v/70683183. Lots of players used demis, I think they were capped at 2, they are easy to contain with this cap. Still, last game imp vs imp, 2 demis on both sides. Granted, I think players decided to go for mirror matches for the finals to be more fair, but anyway, even when capped, pretty much any imp player used 2 demis with halberds. I've also seen imp lists beating VC and vice versa. It's hard to say which faction won, cause most players switched factions to be fair. But anyway, if capped, demis are not difficult to contain. I would not mind if cap of 2 would be official, this would fix the problem too without changing any stats.
    Learn to read.

    How many tournament WINNERS used demigryphs?

    The answer is NONE

    BECAUSE VC WON

    So all this thread is:

    Clueless whiners who are mad because they get wtfpwnt in multiplayer
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 11,088
    edited June 2016
    concmap said:

    Demis are too good for there price. Everyone knows it. That is all.

    Except the tournament winners who play much better than the clueless whiners here
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,604
    edited June 2016



    Learn to read.

    How many tournament WINNERS used demigryphs?

    The answer is NONE

    BECAUSE VC WON

    So all this thread is:

    Clueless whiners who are mad because they get wtfpwnt in multiplayer

    I'm not the one lacking reading comprehension though. Did you even see the games? Last game, imp vs imp, the tournament winner used DK. 2 out of 2 allowed. He did use VC previously, but he switched his faction. How can you tell exactly which faction won if none of the players used the same faction throughout the whole tourney? Also, DK are not a problem when capped at 2 as in the tournament.

    Also pretty selective of you ignoring my arguments on how DK are better and more versitile than any other cav in comparision in every possible way.

    You seem pretty clueless yourself though, posting tons of arrorant rageposts all over the forums without any arguments to back them up.

    I'm also rarely "wtfpwned" unless I'm messing around with some gimmick build for the record.

    I'm not sure that I should waste any more time on this though since you seem to be pretty much alone in your opinion anyway.
  • ForSigmarForSigmar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 196


    And if someone faces empire and brings tons of spears because of demigryphs and then faces no cav well that isnt unfair at all.

    Can't say I agree with this statement. Imo the main problem with demis is that they are good in too many situations while being bad only in handful of situations. Most other units have more counters or softcounters while countering much less stuff themselves. It's a problem on its own right. Basically hence my suggestions of somehow making halberd demis worse vs regular infantry and lance demis worse vs other cav while keeping the rest the same. Lance demis should be about equal to chaos/grail knights for the cost. Halberd demis should beat other cav and monsters but lose to greatswords and the like for the cost.

    That is absurd.

    If you chose to go heavy in an area, for example cavalry, then you risk having the enemy have lots of spears and it will be hard.


    That is what makes army choice actually interesting
    How exactly is this absurd? Most other units in the game do not force you to bring their hardcounters. It's nothing like: "oh, he has hammerers! I must bring handgunners to counter". Most units have a wide array of soft and hard counters.

    If you want cavalry to be a special snowflake unit then at least make other cav as versatile, e.g. add AP to chaos knights, grail knights and black knights at least.

    If looking at halberd demis, I also do not think +50% damage to large is a fair trade for a shield (which mostly helps vs AP missiles , as non AP ones do no damage to 130 armour anyway) and 10 charge. They are still almost as good against everything that lance demis are good against.

    It's pretty obvious that demis are cost effective against much wider array of units than other cav.

    How many tournament winners had demigryphs, that you think are so hard to counter, in their lists?

    Here is a hint:

    NONE

    Err? which tourney do you speak of?

    Here's ESL 1on1 https://www.twitch.tv/totalwarofficial/v/70683183. Lots of players used demis, I think they were capped at 2, they are easy to contain with this cap. Still, last game imp vs imp, 2 demis on both sides. Granted, I think players decided to go for mirror matches for the finals to be more fair, but anyway, even when capped, pretty much any imp player used 2 demis with halberds. I've also seen imp lists beating VC and vice versa. It's hard to say which faction won, cause most players switched factions to be fair. But anyway, if capped, demis are not difficult to contain. I would not mind if cap of 2 would be official, this would fix the problem too without changing any stats.
    Learn to read.

    How many tournament WINNERS used demigryphs?

    The answer is NONE

    BECAUSE VC WON

    So all this thread is:

    Clueless whiners who are mad because they get wtfpwnt in multiplayer
    The last ESL champion did in his game to clinch the win...... And he used them to great effect as they dominated that battle.

    Also in Beta Flash 98# before there were DGK limits set, the runner up ran a 4 demi army and stomped everyone till the finals when his opponent specifically cheesed him in order to counter the demis with all flying army which barely worked and then Savage orc spam and FoB.....

    At least know what you are talking about before making arguments like this.

    DGK need a price increase, that is all. I agree that they can be countered, but their current price is a joke for how strong they are and this is coming from a guy who mains Empire and has in both TW:Wh and in the TT for years.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 11,088
    edited June 2016



    Learn to read.

    How many tournament WINNERS used demigryphs?

    The answer is NONE

    BECAUSE VC WON

    So all this thread is:

    Clueless whiners who are mad because they get wtfpwnt in multiplayer

    I'm not the one lacking reading comprehension though. Did you even see the games? Last game, imp vs imp, the tournament winner used DK. 2 out of 2 allowed. He did use VC previously, but he switched his faction. How can you tell exactly which faction won if none of the players used the same faction throughout the whole tourney? Also, DK are not a problem when capped at 2 as in the tournament.

    Also pretty selective of you ignoring my arguments on how DK are better and more versitile than any other cav in comparision in every possible way.

    You seem pretty clueless yourself though, posting tons of arrorant rageposts all over the forums without any arguments to back them up.

    I'm also rarely "wtfpwned" unless I'm messing around with some gimmick build for the record.

    I'm not sure that I should waste any more time on this though since you seem to be pretty much alone in your opinion anyway.
    Lol


    Whatever you are using is seriously messing with your head.

    And again your blatantly lying. There are threads about DGK being fine and NONE have been started by me. I pity you.

    But i will try and make it really simple for you. The most used and best multiplayer army is VC. This goes for ALL tournaments done.


    Its just that scrubs on the forums cant play properly and whine about demigryphs
    Post edited by Tennisgolfboll on
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • hazzaslaggahazzaslagga Member Registered Users Posts: 68
    edited June 2016



    You seem pretty clueless yourself though, posting tons of arrorant rageposts all over the forums without any arguments to back them up.

    And again your blatantly lying. There are threads about DGK being fine and NONE have been started by me. I pity you.

    To be fair he never said you started any topics on it, only that you post a lot on the subject.

    OT As far as demi gryphs go I'm of the opinion they are a little bit op maybe a slight price increase or other minor adjustments and then see how they are. From what I've seen they are key in the most effective builds for empire and carry the army. If you think it's fine as it is fair enough but there are many people who aren't new/noobs who take issue with them.
    Post edited by hazzaslagga on
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,604
    edited June 2016



    Learn to read.

    How many tournament WINNERS used demigryphs?

    The answer is NONE

    BECAUSE VC WON

    So all this thread is:

    Clueless whiners who are mad because they get wtfpwnt in multiplayer

    I'm not the one lacking reading comprehension though. Did you even see the games? Last game, imp vs imp, the tournament winner used DK. 2 out of 2 allowed. He did use VC previously, but he switched his faction. How can you tell exactly which faction won if none of the players used the same faction throughout the whole tourney? Also, DK are not a problem when capped at 2 as in the tournament.

    Also pretty selective of you ignoring my arguments on how DK are better and more versitile than any other cav in comparision in every possible way.

    You seem pretty clueless yourself though, posting tons of arrorant rageposts all over the forums without any arguments to back them up.

    I'm also rarely "wtfpwned" unless I'm messing around with some gimmick build for the record.

    I'm not sure that I should waste any more time on this though since you seem to be pretty much alone in your opinion anyway.
    Lol


    Whatever you are using is seriously messing with your head.

    And again your blatantly lying. There are threads about DGK being fine and NONE have been started by me. I pity you.

    But i will try and make it really simple for you. The most used and best multiplayer army is VC. This goes for ALL tournaments done.


    Its just that scrubs on the forums cant play properly and whine about demigryphs
    Ok, it's you and antipeople supporting DGKs, lol. Happy now?

    (To be there are a few others that think it's not Demis that need a nerf, but other heavy cav needs a buff - an opinion I can live with, even though I don't want the game to be cav centric which it will be with cav buffs. But you have to be ridiculously biased or have no basic analytic skills not to see that Demis are more cost effective than any other (often pricier) cav in most scenarios).

    And about blatantly lying - you said no tournament winners ever used demis. Lol again.

    VC were played a lot in the last ESL tournament, empire and orks were used a lot too though. Haven't actually counted, but yeah, there were more VC picks overall probably. That's with demi cap of 2 mind you. About earlier tournaments - I would not take your word on it, since you seem to not know what you're talking about and just spew out some random fallacies and then back out on them. Maybe someone who actually knows what he's talking about (like For SIgmar) can enlighten us on this matter.

    But even if ALL players used VC - that would just mean that VC have too much OP stuff themselves. That does not canel any balance issues with other faction's units.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 11,088
    edited June 2016



    Learn to read.

    How many tournament WINNERS used demigryphs?

    The answer is NONE

    BECAUSE VC WON

    So all this thread is:

    Clueless whiners who are mad because they get wtfpwnt in multiplayer

    I'm not the one lacking reading comprehension though. Did you even see the games? Last game, imp vs imp, the tournament winner used DK. 2 out of 2 allowed. He did use VC previously, but he switched his faction. How can you tell exactly which faction won if none of the players used the same faction throughout the whole tourney? Also, DK are not a problem when capped at 2 as in the tournament.

    Also pretty selective of you ignoring my arguments on how DK are better and more versitile than any other cav in comparision in every possible way.

    You seem pretty clueless yourself though, posting tons of arrorant rageposts all over the forums without any arguments to back them up.

    I'm also rarely "wtfpwned" unless I'm messing around with some gimmick build for the record.

    I'm not sure that I should waste any more time on this though since you seem to be pretty much alone in your opinion anyway.
    Lol


    Whatever you are using is seriously messing with your head.

    And again your blatantly lying. There are threads about DGK being fine and NONE have been started by me. I pity you.

    But i will try and make it really simple for you. The most used and best multiplayer army is VC. This goes for ALL tournaments done.


    Its just that scrubs on the forums cant play properly and whine about demigryphs
    Ok, it's you and antipeople supporting DGKs, lol. Happy now?

    (To be there are a few others that think it's not Demis that need a nerf, but other heavy cav needs a buff - an opinion I can live with, even though I don't want the game to be cav centric which it will be with cav buffs. But you have to be ridiculously biased or have no basic analytic skills not to see that Demis are more cost effective than any other (often pricier) cav in most scenarios).

    And about blatantly lying - you said no tournament winners ever used demis. Lol again.

    VC were played a lot in the last ESL tournament, empire and orks were used a lot too though. Haven't actually counted, but yeah, there were more VC picks overall probably. That's with demi cap of 2 mind you. About earlier tournaments - I would not take your word on it, since you seem to not know what you're talking about and just spew out some random fallacies and then back out on them. Maybe someone who actually knows what he's talking about (like For SIgmar) can enlighten us on this matter.

    But even if ALL players used VC - that would just mean that VC have too much OP stuff themselves. That does not canel any balance issues with other faction's units.
    You lol on the fact that you got caught lying through your teeth?

    I dont even....


    VC is the strongest mp army. If you actually knew how to play you would know that and you would not be whining about demigryphs.

    The cap on demigryphs wasnt any harder than the cap on vampire heroes. And vampire heroes are better, chosen more by tournament players.

    You simply havent got a single clue about the game but you just come here to the forum and lie and whine.

    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,604
    edited June 2016



    Learn to read.

    How many tournament WINNERS used demigryphs?

    The answer is NONE

    BECAUSE VC WON

    So all this thread is:

    Clueless whiners who are mad because they get wtfpwnt in multiplayer

    I'm not the one lacking reading comprehension though. Did you even see the games? Last game, imp vs imp, the tournament winner used DK. 2 out of 2 allowed. He did use VC previously, but he switched his faction. How can you tell exactly which faction won if none of the players used the same faction throughout the whole tourney? Also, DK are not a problem when capped at 2 as in the tournament.

    Also pretty selective of you ignoring my arguments on how DK are better and more versitile than any other cav in comparision in every possible way.

    You seem pretty clueless yourself though, posting tons of arrorant rageposts all over the forums without any arguments to back them up.

    I'm also rarely "wtfpwned" unless I'm messing around with some gimmick build for the record.

    I'm not sure that I should waste any more time on this though since you seem to be pretty much alone in your opinion anyway.
    Lol


    Whatever you are using is seriously messing with your head.

    And again your blatantly lying. There are threads about DGK being fine and NONE have been started by me. I pity you.

    But i will try and make it really simple for you. The most used and best multiplayer army is VC. This goes for ALL tournaments done.


    Its just that scrubs on the forums cant play properly and whine about demigryphs
    Ok, it's you and antipeople supporting DGKs, lol. Happy now?

    (To be there are a few others that think it's not Demis that need a nerf, but other heavy cav needs a buff - an opinion I can live with, even though I don't want the game to be cav centric which it will be with cav buffs. But you have to be ridiculously biased or have no basic analytic skills not to see that Demis are more cost effective than any other (often pricier) cav in most scenarios).

    And about blatantly lying - you said no tournament winners ever used demis. Lol again.

    VC were played a lot in the last ESL tournament, empire and orks were used a lot too though. Haven't actually counted, but yeah, there were more VC picks overall probably. That's with demi cap of 2 mind you. About earlier tournaments - I would not take your word on it, since you seem to not know what you're talking about and just spew out some random fallacies and then back out on them. Maybe someone who actually knows what he's talking about (like For SIgmar) can enlighten us on this matter.

    But even if ALL players used VC - that would just mean that VC have too much OP stuff themselves. That does not canel any balance issues with other faction's units.
    You lol on the fact that you got caught lying through your teeth?

    I dont even....


    VC is the strongest mp army. If you actually knew how to play you would know that and you would not be whining about demigryphs.

    The cap on demigryphs wasnt any harder than the cap on vampire heroes. And vampire heroes are better, chosen more by tournament players.

    You simply havent got a single clue about the game but you just come here to the forum and lie and whine.

    I don't "whine" - I make suggestions based on what I see to improve the game.

    It's actually pretty playable now, but it could be better. I also can beat demis no probs - I spam FoB on every single one I see or just take my own ones + halberds as Empire. Is this a good meta? No. Both unit and magic balance needs adjustments.

    Anyone with the basic logic can see that the argument about the vamp hero cap = demi cap somehow means that vamp heroes > demis is BS.

    Yes, vamps are probably more competititive than Empire, but not by a huge margin, and that does not remove any issues with demis by itself. It simply means Vamps need balancing too. Vamp issues also come from a combination of factors and not a single unit/hero.

    Also about me "lying": lol again. Yeah, 2 people spamming the forum with "demis are ok" is definitely very different from one. And antipeople at least has some actual arguments, unlike you, so yeah, you're kinda alone. Also you making arguments about tournaments without actually knowing anything about them is definitely not "lying".

    The only thing you seem to be doing here is coming in with NOOOOOO L2P comments in every single thread that suggests any changes. Maybe you need to l2p yourself? This is a balancing forum, people post about balance issues they think exist here. Do yo think the game is perfect as is and needs no changes? If I start "please buff the Demis" thread would you support it?

    But by all means, please continue, this is fairly entertaining.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 11,088
    The way you hop from one side to the other is funny.

    You admit VC is stronger yet all your whines are about demigryphs.
    That you say you defeat.


    You are lying again.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 4,604
    edited June 2016

    The way you hop from one side to the other is funny.

    You admit VC is stronger yet all your whines are about demigryphs.
    That you say you defeat.


    You are lying again.

    I never said that Empire is stronger than VC.

    I never said demis are unbeatable.

    I said demis are too cost effective and good against a too wide variety of units, which they are.

    The Vamp balance issues have a lot to do with them having more non crappy magic (even though vamp/death lores have crappy spells too, they at least have some good ones) - I want to see weaker lores of magic buffed and having some magic counters in the game, so the stuff you can do with it is less unconditional - which I also posted about. I prefer "all magic is powerful, but has counters", to "all magic is crap and does not really matter" approach. That would be an indirect nerf to Vamps. Crypt horrors are another demi like unit that is good at everything - imo they should be given a tank/debuffer role and some other vamp unit should take the AP damage dealing role. They are nowhere near as bad as demis though.
  • PisteePistee Registered Users Posts: 34
    edited June 2016
    All I wanna ad to this discussion is that I just tested 19 halberd demigryph knights vs 19 chosen halberds and the DGKs handily beat the boxed up chosens on guard mode. I don't care how good 'monstrous cavalry' is, the single best halberd infantry in the game should be able to massacre them consistently. Especially since they cost +100 money.
  • tqhung87tqhung87 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 401
    Hmm, I see a lot of people saying that Demi beat Chosen (Halberd) while I have seen them lost to Chaos Warrior (Halberd). How is that possible? Is the Chosen (Halberd) really that bad :(
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    TQhung87 said:

    Hmm, I see a lot of people saying that Demi beat Chosen (Halberd) while I have seen them lost to Chaos Warrior (Halberd). How is that possible? Is the Chosen (Halberd) really that bad :(

    Some do their test agaisnt the AI wich normally gives the AI units buffs.

    Also some people dont circle charge.

    Not to mention that in a scenario of 4 DGK vs 4 CW halberts, the DGK can easily focus on one CW unit after the other and destroy it.
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


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  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 11,088
    TQhung87 said:

    Hmm, I see a lot of people saying that Demi beat Chosen (Halberd) while I have seen them lost to Chaos Warrior (Halberd). How is that possible? Is the Chosen (Halberd) really that bad :(

    Because they are scrubs and csnt play at all.

    Halberds destroy demigryphs
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • bushrangerbushranger Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 598
    No they dont.
  • HalberdHalberd Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4
    All shock cavalry should have AP for the charge (Via the lance), then melee damage should be limited by the type of hand weapon. Warhammer, Axe AP, Swords not AP, etc.
    Gryphs provide AP via tooth and claw so bonus always applies.
    Horses themselves should not impart AP damage modifiers.
  • concmapconcmap Registered Users Posts: 255
    New update patch might have fixed dk. Sweeeeet! ;)
  • jonasneejonasnee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,737
    edited June 2016
    Quote deleted.

    patches in total war are usually much bigger than that and often goes to almost over zealous degrees, i expect something like a 5 ap to normal damage and around 150 cost increase, but they might go futher, i severely doubt anything less than a 100 cost increase.

    Post edited by dge1 on
    put your actions where your mouth is.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=TJpmII-kxuM
    Total war is best when it is kept simple and not overly complex
  • busa27busa27 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,744
    edited June 2016
    Learn to mod and test what happen if you increase AP damage and reduce normal damage..... Only 3 points can make a BIG difference.

    In addition you take away the fact that Grail Knights and Chaos Knights have been buffed (Plus Blood Knights), so will be more options to counter DGKs. I suspect that you will cry after patch because can't play anymore with an OP unit.

    Chaos Knights or any other cavalry does not counter DGK. I do agree with your point though


    Maybe I have chosen a wrong word, When I said "counter" I tried to say "face". I repeat what I said in other threads, I don't have any problem if DGKs can beat all other cav units, my problem is about right now they can DESTROY them without losses.

    Supposing that Grail Knights/Chaos Knights get increased their AP damage 2 points and DGKs get decreased their AP dmg 2 points, I am sure that Grail Knights and Chaos Knights will be able to face toe to toe DGKs Lancers.

    To give you an idea, in my test mod I Increase AP dmg by 5 and decrease the normal dmg by 5 to Grail Knights and they can beat DGKs lancers.

    Post edited by dge1 on
  • ChipawapaChipawapa Registered Users Posts: 151
    @Busa27 That's really interesting actually, I did not know AP damage can make such a huge difference. Guess I have a better idea on what to expect in the new patch today.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 22,312
    Posts containing personal comments deleted or edited.
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  • JSudekisJSudekis CanadaRegistered Users Posts: 27
    concmap said:

    After my kids go to sleep im going to test grail knights vs demigryphs 1 on 1 just to see. Last night i had two units of rank 6 grail knights with a mounted damsel buffing them get wiped by two rank 1 demigryphs. I looked away briefly and by the time i swung back around from the rest of the battle they were already dead... not sure if a spell got em, demigryphs over powered them or i just stink at multiplayer lol

    unit rank in this game doesnt have the same significant effect that it did it older TW games.
    I didn't choose the luminark life, the monstrous spammers and hero spammers chose it for me. .
    -JSudekis
  • concmapconcmap Registered Users Posts: 255
    JSudekis said:

    concmap said:

    After my kids go to sleep im going to test grail knights vs demigryphs 1 on 1 just to see. Last night i had two units of rank 6 grail knights with a mounted damsel buffing them get wiped by two rank 1 demigryphs. I looked away briefly and by the time i swung back around from the rest of the battle they were already dead... not sure if a spell got em, demigryphs over powered them or i just stink at multiplayer lol

    unit rank in this game doesnt have the same significant effect that it did it older TW games.
    Yup i still hate demigryphs lol. It's just one of those units you need to be mindfull of and deal with early on in the battles. This was prior to the balance patch as well.
  • Elkantar1981Elkantar1981 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 613
    edited July 2016
    VC is on a good spot and has many versatile options and counters, same for Empire and Orks. Actually most Tourney Rules favour Empire or Greenskin over the rest due to the imbalance from the Rule to the imbalance of CA.

    right thats stacked imbalance and just change meta not the game and it won'T make the game competitive in anyway beside self claims.

    Costwise demis should be around 1,7k like BDK (Blood Dragon Knights). or 1,6k (only halberd variant)cause Knights can be healed demis can'T.
  • BrightestLightBrightestLight Registered Users Posts: 548
    hopefully they will have a price increase and slight nerf, though only so that counters are more effective against them.
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    Demigryphs are definitely overpowered. Most units in the game make some kind of compromise: Giants have tons of HP and damage but no armor, etc.... Demigryphs make no compromises in their design, Bjuna doesn't work against them because they have too few models. Light infantry doesn't because they have small models, cause terror, and have 120 armor. Heavy cav doesn't challenge them because they are fast, armored, and have armor piercing. For factions with weak missile units, Demigryphs do not have a counter. Your only hope is to just grind them down and hope your army doesn't break from terror first.

    If you had to pick between units like Minotaurs or Dragon Ogres and Demigryphs, no one in their right mind would pick Minotaurs or Dragon Ogres, in any scenario. Demigryphs are just better in every way, while costing the same or less. That is the definition of overpowered. That is simply what it means. If you don't agree why don't you go to the thread about how weak Minotaurs or Dragon Ogres are and try telling everyone that they are wrong, that Dragon Ogres are actually well balanced and are better than Demigryphs because they cost more. Please do that so we all can have a nice big laugh in your face.
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/196105/minotaurs-in-multiplayer#latest

    There's the thread. Please go tell everyone there that they are idiots and that Minotaurs and Dragon Ogres are just as good as Demigryphs.
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