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I love demigryph spam and general instant kill spell spam general sniping!!!

24

Comments

  • fiddlersitchfiddlersitch Registered Users Posts: 38

    But you cant play bretonia single player just now, are you sure you play sp games praetorian????

    He used a mod to unlock them.
    Then why bump his gums about them being broken? Wait till they are released then make a rant complaining. Dammit man do it right
  • Praetorian349Praetorian349 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 110

    But you cant play bretonia single player just now, are you sure you play sp games praetorian????

    He used a mod to unlock them.
    Then why bump his gums about them being broken? Wait till they are released then make a rant complaining. Dammit man do it right
    Because they are units that exist at this moment in time and I have free access to them to compare and contrast their abilities to other units and to my own expectations of them as units. :P
  • fiddlersitchfiddlersitch Registered Users Posts: 38
    Still without specific skill trees or ll buffs to look at the synergy of the race better to wait till its finished properly no?
  • Praetorian349Praetorian349 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 110

    Still without specific skill trees or ll buffs to look at the synergy of the race better to wait till its finished properly no?

    The mod has a Brettonian tech tree and hero skills added in. So it's a pretty good indicator. That, and their impact in custom and multiplayer matches, makes Brettonian cavalry pretty underwhelming at their job of infantry-cracking. Even when given an ideal charge.
  • EaglePhoenixEaglePhoenix Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,270
    Blame your opponent to pick DG's only spam.

    If I want to balance my armies in my singleplayer campaign, by having only 1 to 2 demigriphs units - I should not be forced to have more just because they get nerfed for the sake of your MP game.

    There are other ways to go about that.

    Your MP needs are perpendicular to my SP needs. By balancing one, you imbalance the other.
    Keep them separated.
    Team Empire!..and also tiny lil bit VC - but shhh
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 19,315
    MP can be balanced by making things more or less expensive, there's no need to nerf or buff anything for MP unless they're going to make MP balance different from SP.

    Malakai is the best choice for a Dwarf LP. Give us Slayer lords so we may form a Slayer host and revel in our destruction!
  • DeuzerreDeuzerre Member Registered Users Posts: 939
    Something I love to do as vampire counts is to get a vampire on a flying mount and overcast the vampire vortex spell that goes in a straght line on the whole enemy line from the side.

    Murders a whole army in seconds.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,726
    HoneyBun said:

    Playing multiplayer games online is fundamentally frustrating. That's because people don't like to lose.

    What is frustrating for single player gamers is when their brilliant single player game is ruined by the unceasing (and often contradictory) cries of the people who just lost a game playing multiplayer.

    It ruined the unit rosters in Rome 2.

    I hope CA ignores you all.

    This.


    Also the balance is pretty great when it comes to multiplayer.

    Which is why we have NERF all races threada all over the forums by the losing whiners
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • dodge33cymrudodge33cymru Registered Users Posts: 1,994
    edited June 2016


    If I want to balance my armies in my singleplayer campaign, by having only 1 to 2 demigriphs units - I should not be forced to have more just because they get nerfed for the sake of your MP game.

    With the greatest of respect (I understand both sides), that doesn't really make much sense as an argument. You might as well not have prices for any units or buildings in the game and say "well I set the limits myself" (although in vanilla I can't limit the AI's use of them).

    These units are clearly OP, as they're the most complained about single unit and, as far as I can tell, the most reliably used online. Fair enough, they'll be removed from my SP game, or I'll at least whack the cost right up or limit them to a single one in the Empire at once (if possible), but we can't mod them out of MP unfortunately.

    I play both SP and MP; the unit prices, if not attributes, need to revolve around the MP matchups though, as this determines their usefulness in SP campaigns. At the moment, the usefulness:cost ratio of demigryphs makes them an absolute no brainier, both in MP and an SP campaign, and surely no-one wants a game that requires no brains? Their inclusion should at least take consideration.

    For the record, I place no blame with this on CA and it's all GW's doing for making the unit in the first place (both in gameplay terms and as contradicting their own established lore over and over in 8th ed, IMO).

    For the sake of the game though, I hope they either massively increase the price of demigryphs, or bring the stats down somewhat.

    Quite frankly, the tone and demands of the OP are detrimental to what is a very valid argument.
  • Berg_Of_The_WestBerg_Of_The_West Registered Users Posts: 528
  • Berg_Of_The_WestBerg_Of_The_West Registered Users Posts: 528
  • Berg_Of_The_WestBerg_Of_The_West Registered Users Posts: 528
  • Berg_Of_The_WestBerg_Of_The_West Registered Users Posts: 528
  • centar6centar6 New Mexico USARegistered Users Posts: 165
    If the demi's or other units are OP in MP then they probably need a price increase....but please do not make changes to the single player game based on MP needs...all this does is let MP drive single player game play..which are patently different. Do not let TW:WH end up like WOW, a broken nefred piece of crap that no one wants to play anymore because of so many changes...90% of which are MP driven. I 100% agree with everyone on this thread that says the MP centrist view has ruined the unit rosters in SP for quite a few TW tittles.

    I realize that MP will be the life blood of the game in the long run...and I am not saying that no change is needed...i'm saying it needs to be done carefully...not based on less than one months game play time...let me enjoy crushing people with an OP units and spells for a while. I also agree that mods can fix this problem right now anyway...just mod it and you can pretty much do anything you want to.

    CA let us play through the races as your devs intended before making any changes to the game.
    A good plan violently executed today is far better than a perfect plan executed next week.
    Violence has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.
  • centar6centar6 New Mexico USARegistered Users Posts: 165

    HoneyBun said:

    Playing multiplayer games online is fundamentally frustrating. That's because people don't like to lose.

    What is frustrating for single player gamers is when their brilliant single player game is ruined by the unceasing (and often contradictory) cries of the people who just lost a game playing multiplayer.

    It ruined the unit rosters in Rome 2.

    I hope CA ignores you all.

    get good

    The proper way to say this is "get good Skrub"
    A good plan violently executed today is far better than a perfect plan executed next week.
    Violence has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.
  • busa27busa27 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,744
    edited June 2016
    centar6 said:

    If the demi's or other units are OP in MP then they probably need a price increase....but please do not make changes to the single player game based on MP needs...all this does is let MP drive single player game play..which are patently different. Do not let TW:WH end up like WOW, a broken nefred piece of crap that no one wants to play anymore because of so many changes...90% of which are MP driven. I 100% agree with everyone on this thread that says the MP centrist view has ruined the unit rosters in SP for quite a few TW tittles.

    I realize that MP will be the life blood of the game in the long run...and I am not saying that no change is needed...i'm saying it needs to be done carefully...not based on less than one months game play time...let me enjoy crushing people with an OP units and spells for a while. I also agree that mods can fix this problem right now anyway...just mod it and you can pretty much do anything you want to.

    CA let us play through the races as your devs intended before making any changes to the game.

    Singleplayers can use mods but multiplayers can't. I only hope CA don't overnerf Demis but they should be nerfed or make other cavarly better. If you like OP Demigryphs you can do a mod in 5 minutes.

    I am not expert about Warhammer Lore but should be Demis so strong like they are in the game?. They can kill everything right now.

  • Berg_Of_The_WestBerg_Of_The_West Registered Users Posts: 528
    busa27 said:

    centar6 said:

    If the demi's or other units are OP in MP then they probably need a price increase....but please do not make changes to the single player game based on MP needs...all this does is let MP drive single player game play..which are patently different. Do not let TW:WH end up like WOW, a broken nefred piece of crap that no one wants to play anymore because of so many changes...90% of which are MP driven. I 100% agree with everyone on this thread that says the MP centrist view has ruined the unit rosters in SP for quite a few TW tittles.

    I realize that MP will be the life blood of the game in the long run...and I am not saying that no change is needed...i'm saying it needs to be done carefully...not based on less than one months game play time...let me enjoy crushing people with an OP units and spells for a while. I also agree that mods can fix this problem right now anyway...just mod it and you can pretty much do anything you want to.

    CA let us play through the races as your devs intended before making any changes to the game.

    Singleplayers can use mods but multiplayers can't. I only hope CA don't overnerf Demis but they should be nerfed or make other cavarly better. If you like OP Demigryphs you can do a mod in 5 minutes.

    I am not expert about Warhammer Lore but should be Demis so strong like they are in the game?. They can kill everything right now.

    I don't think they should buff other cav. We would end up repeating the Attila mechanics where infantry and spears would only be mowed down by cav unit mass.
  • Tarsis_IstervalTarsis_Isterval Registered Users Posts: 43
    edited June 2016
    Demigryphs (and single target "rape" spells) are indeed too powerful compared to the Table Game, they need a slight tune down.

    (Also Bretonnian knights should need a tune up cause they should be more powerful due to the "Lance Formation" that is not represented well here.)

    The biggest problem with Multi Player is that there is no limit to specific units, and the solution is already there, just add unit limitation number JUST LIKE IN THE TABLE GAME...

    Regroup the units in tiers like, Basic, Special, Elite and force restriction based on the gold used.

    For example with the lowest gold amount you must choose: 3+ Basic units, 0-3 Special, 0-1 Elite.

    To fix the Magic, since there is no option to dispell enemy cast, the only thing to do is to work on numbers.
  • Berg_Of_The_WestBerg_Of_The_West Registered Users Posts: 528
    edited June 2016


    I don't mind powerful spells that take a bit of a skill shot or luck to pull off.

    I just find the "click to win" spells a bit much.
    especially since there is nothing to counter or alleviate the damage from them in anyway
  • IndyprideIndypride Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,681
    HoneyBun said:

    busa27 said:

    Setrus said:

    Setrus said:


    He's not the one losing...? :confused:

    HoneyBunns hatred for MP does imply that he got his **** kicked.

    I have no idea how MP balance somehow would have ruined R2s rister. That makes no sense at all. In fact the R2 roster started horrendously, but became quite alright around Emperor Edition, for both SP and MP.

    I mean the only thing he could possibly be implying is the changes on elephants and chariots, but that should really be a benefit to SP since nerfing those super units made the campaign more challenging. I guess he doesn't like a good challenge.

    Generally speaking if MP is improved then so is SP.
    Oh I wasn't agreeing with honeybun, I just found OP's reply ironic. :lol:

    As a singleplayer player I wouldn't mind a demigryph nerf...
    I'm a singleplayer and I think Demigryph are OP for their price and Lore. They make other cavarly useless.
    Nope, other cavalry are just underpowered, mate. And this is coming from a player who primarily plays a solid infantry force. Even considering that, regular cavalry like Reiksguard, do **** all.
    And yet there is already a thread about how OP Reiksguard Knights are.

    It's almost as though you all have totally different opinions (subjective) which you then demand be treated as truth (objective).

    Every total war MP game has at least one loser. Given that people hate losing. That is thousands of people to keep bombarding CA with demands that this or that unit is nerfed.

    Meanwhile SP gamers are busy having fun in the game. Totally ignorant of the fact that CA is being lobbied by angry and emotional people to change their gaming experience.
    #1. Why are you acting like SP players aren't making the same kind of threads? I've seen at least 5 separate threads in the last 24 hours saying factions or WAAGH mechanics are completely Overpowered in Singleplayer. Someone tried to say that Bretonnia was OP to their Dwarf infantry lines in campaign lol

    #2. Please, if you are going to claim that MP specific balancing ruined Rome 2, you have to actually back that up with some evidence. I've seen you repeat that numerous times, and NEVER seen you give any actual evidence on why or how that was the case.

    #3. Balancing is done for singleplayer and multiplayer in Total War games. A lot of the balancing patches released for Rome 2 were singleplayer focused. Unless we're trying to claim that TW Warhammer was perfect on release, telling Creative Assembly to not patch the game to "deal with the whiners" is effectively the same as the people who lose a game in MP and run immediately to the forums about OP stuff. Its an argument from pure spite and emotion, not logic or reason. You're whining about people whining.

    The game isnt perfect. There are some adjustments that can and should be made. Incremental MP balance changes wont ruin Singleplayer. And singleplayer is going to get balance changes regardless. Relax.

    As for the OP, there are already a million and one threads about these issues. Post on one of those, you dont need to clog up the forums.
  • LordoftheIslesLordoftheIsles Member Registered Users Posts: 442

    busa27 said:

    centar6 said:

    If the demi's or other units are OP in MP then they probably need a price increase....but please do not make changes to the single player game based on MP needs...all this does is let MP drive single player game play..which are patently different. Do not let TW:WH end up like WOW, a broken nefred piece of crap that no one wants to play anymore because of so many changes...90% of which are MP driven. I 100% agree with everyone on this thread that says the MP centrist view has ruined the unit rosters in SP for quite a few TW tittles.

    I realize that MP will be the life blood of the game in the long run...and I am not saying that no change is needed...i'm saying it needs to be done carefully...not based on less than one months game play time...let me enjoy crushing people with an OP units and spells for a while. I also agree that mods can fix this problem right now anyway...just mod it and you can pretty much do anything you want to.

    CA let us play through the races as your devs intended before making any changes to the game.

    Singleplayers can use mods but multiplayers can't. I only hope CA don't overnerf Demis but they should be nerfed or make other cavarly better. If you like OP Demigryphs you can do a mod in 5 minutes.

    I am not expert about Warhammer Lore but should be Demis so strong like they are in the game?. They can kill everything right now.

    I don't think they should buff other cav. We would end up repeating the Attila mechanics where infantry and spears would only be mowed down by cav unit mass.
    It doesn't have to work that way heavy cavalry role should not be about outflanking and rear charges. And every faction has anti large and/or anti cavalry units which should be the counter to heavy cavalry. Normal infantry and anti infantry infantry should not out melee heavy melee cav or anti infantry cav. The role of light cav should be exploiting flanks and the rear of the enemy.

    Where appropriate with the source material melee attack and melee defense should increase on much of the higher tier heavy cav imo.

    I can't stress enough that heavy cavalry should be beaten by appropriate infantry which counter them such as Anti large and anti cav. If also have armor piercing will be even more effective against heavy cav. Other infantry should be your counter to anti large and anti cav infantry.

    test like you did with your demi and halbred armed chaos warriors . Chosen regular infantry shield and axe against Grail knights for example. I think you will find the Chosen win that engagement. Chosen with halbred should be the counter not regular chosen which happen to be cheaper and not anti large/anti cav or even armor piercing.

    As for the topic on demigryph knights....Their price needs to increase dramatically 2000 perhaps a bit more or need to be adjusted perhaps fewer in number or stats need to be adjusted. They are much faster then they are in the source material in total war. They have a 7 inch move not an 8 inch move.

    As for multiplayer some simple changes are hard limits on particular units implemented by CA if the deem it would effect Single player detrimentally if changed otherwise. Or CA could implement different costs of particular units in multiplayer and try to balance it that way without effecting costs in singleplayer.

    I personally play multiplayer head to head campaigns so far and single player campaigns but would consider multiplayer battles if there are some changes. I havn't played multiplayer battles regularly since Napoleon Total War in which every faction was viable in a competent generals hands.
  • EaglePhoenixEaglePhoenix Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,270

    Ehhh - is that how rear charges are intended to work? You blast their formation to smithereens - but get penalty for being then surrounded and lose grievously? Or am I mistaken?

    Because, if that's the case - that's quite an issue that's not limited to the use of demigryphs but any rear-charge of any unit.
    Team Empire!..and also tiny lil bit VC - but shhh
  • ashmizenashmizen Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 318
    The problem with MP vs SP is that all late-game units are going to be good.

    In SP campaign, you spend 60 turns, and 100,000 gold to build the buildings needed to get your Tier 5 units. You'd expect they would be good, cost for cost, or why the HELL did you just spend 100,000* gold to get the ability to get them??????

    (also, it's actually more, since you could have built income buildings in those slots instead. Probably another 100,000 lost from that opportunity cost).



    In MP, all units are unlocked. There is no opportunity cost, or building cost, to get Tier 4, Tier 5 units instead of Tier 1 units. So, tier 1 units need to be balanced for cost to Tier 5 units, or no one will ever get them in MP.



    So balanced for MP or SP, you end up with either underwhelming Tier 5 units (I spent 60 turns for this?!) in SP, or useless Tier 1 units in MP.


    Solution?

    High tier units should cost more in MP. Think of it as factoring the partial price of the Tier 3 barracks, Tier 2 Armory, Tier 5 city that you would need, into the cost of the unit. Maybe DGK is 1400 in the campaign, but since you need 50,000 gold worth of buildings (and 2 building slots!) to unlock it, it should cost 2000 in MP.

    Otherwise, if Tier 1 units are perfectly "balanced" with Tier 5 units, why would you ever tech in the Single player game? Just spam Tier 1 units, which are just as effective (by MP balance!), and use the 100,000 gold saved to get 6 stacks instead.
    Warhammer TW wish list:
    1. allow building during other player's turn in co-op.
    2. Autoresolve damage shifted to more on regular melee units, less on lord/heroes/monsters
    3. AI stop building armies of only 8 pistoliers
  • WalrusWalrus Senior Member BrazilRegistered Users Posts: 1,103
    Question: what happens when two players spam demigryph knights in a mp battle? Does it become a balanced battle? Or does it become a "****-fight"?
  • ashmizenashmizen Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 318
    If it wasn't obvious from my post, I am AGAINST unit stat changes for MP balance.

    Instead, change MP cost (not single player campaign cost) for stronger units, or lower the MP cost for useless units.
    Warhammer TW wish list:
    1. allow building during other player's turn in co-op.
    2. Autoresolve damage shifted to more on regular melee units, less on lord/heroes/monsters
    3. AI stop building armies of only 8 pistoliers
  • FloppingerFloppinger Registered Users Posts: 416
    edited June 2016
    As soon as I figure out how, I´ll mod the demigryphs out of my game. For now, I just don´t build any as the empire.

    I played warhammer during 6th edition, and back then these things didn´t exist. So I don´t need them in my warhammer experience.
    Reeks of GWs clumsy attempt to make the empire more appealig to the younger generations. Because regular humans on regular horses are to boring or something.
    Whatever GWs intention was when introducing them, they don´t fit into the empire. The knightly orders are the empires cavalry elite, not some wingless mini deathclaw bs.

  • MogustheDogMogustheDog Registered Users Posts: 553
    Bump the MP unit cost, and maybe even the SP cost and maintenance, but leave the stats alone please.
  • Rochaid29Rochaid29 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,385
    Summary:


    "i just got owned by an Empire army on MP"



    TO DA FORUMS!!!!!
  • Berg_Of_The_WestBerg_Of_The_West Registered Users Posts: 528
    Rochaid29 said:

    Summary:


    "i just got owned by an Empire army on MP"



    TO DA FORUMS!!!!!

    it was probably to your Empire demigryph spam army. good game! :p
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,726
    Rochaid29 said:

    Summary:


    "i just got owned by an Empire army on MP"



    TO DA FORUMS!!!!!


    Sad but true
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
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