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Please fix the Missile Unit AI

Sky_SweeperrSky_Sweeperr Senior MemberOklahomaPosts: 1,701Registered Users
I know this may seem like another complaint, I don't mean it to. This is just an observation of my experience with the game so far and a request to re-evaluate how something works in it.

The Missile unit attack commands appear to be bugged. I just tested this multiple times in a custom battle test. The Missile infantry (for dwarfs in this test scenario) do not manage themselves as well as they used to in the past titles. In the past the AI would evaluate that friendlies were in it's line of sight and re-adjust for it. OR they would fire through them anyway, risking friendly fire. However in this game it will not fire if friendlies are within the firing arch. I tested this with quellerers in thunderers. I lined the quellerers behind the thunderers (a decent distance for 2 lines). When set to fire-at-will mode they fire mostly fine, all of them firing. However, once I gave the order to attack a specific unit, the quellerers adjusted their unit (also something that is over-done in this title over the previous titles) but then never fired. They just stand there and shout at the enemy.

This is a major problem as it makes it impossible to set up tiered firing lines, making missile units be more effective as flanking forces than covering forces from behind. for gunnery units I can understand this, but bow/arched weapon units should be able to adjust and fire over friendlies into the enemy without having to be above them. It makes it harder to enjoy the combat because I feel I'm having to micro-manage basic tasks more than I used to in previous titles.

Also, they are completely useless if they get stuck in melee, because it's nearly impossible to pull them back and get them to fire because they REFUSE to fire until EVERY one of their living units is in formation. This means the unit is standing there being completely useless because one straggler got stuck in the mosh-pit of a charge, even if the entire rest of the unit is set up, in clear line of sight, and again just standing there shouting at the enemy as their brothers-in-arms get their buts smashed in wondering where the heck the fire support is.

TL:DR
- Fix missile targeting and firing/friendly-fire perameters
- Fix unit formation over-adjustment and refusal to fire until everyone is in position
A brave man marches into danger and ignores his fear. A courageous man marches into danger while embracing his fear.

OS: Windows 7 Premium 64 bit
CPU: Intel i7 4970k 4.0 Ghz
GPU: AMD r9 290x 4GB
RAM: 16GB DDR3

Veteran of the Total War franchise since Shogun: Total war. (I was 10)

Comments

  • WhiskeyclifWhiskeyclif Posts: 62Registered Users
    Amen. Lost more than one battle so far due to crossbow men standing around "obstructed"

    What happened to arcing missiles over your troops heads?
    I'd be fine even if that was a research able skill as in history it's totally realistic
  • GuvenorenGuvenoren Junior Member SwedenPosts: 277Registered Users

    Amen. Lost more than one battle so far due to crossbow men standing around "obstructed"

    What happened to arcing missiles over your troops heads?
    I'd be fine even if that was a research able skill as in history it's totally realistic

    First, warhammer is not a historical game. Second, might be because of them being too strong :)
  • WhiskeyclifWhiskeyclif Posts: 62Registered Users
    I'm sorry what?
    I'm not talking about historical as in places and events.

    The weapon the crossbow is historical yes??? So they should be able to use them as they were used historically, yes??? By that argument it would be ok if their swords didn't work either.

    Also, what do you mean being too strong? That the weapons shoot the bolt too hard for them to arc? First, that just means a higher angle to the shot, second, if they are that strong why is the range not far longer?

    I just want to choose when it's worth some friendly fire to poor bolts into packed enemies without my crossbow men standing around doing nothing
  • Sky_SweeperrSky_Sweeperr Senior Member OklahomaPosts: 1,701Registered Users

    I'm sorry what?
    I'm not talking about historical as in places and events.

    The weapon the crossbow is historical yes??? So they should be able to use them as they were used historically, yes??? By that argument it would be ok if their swords didn't work either.

    Also, what do you mean being too strong? That the weapons shoot the bolt too hard for them to arc? First, that just means a higher angle to the shot, second, if they are that strong why is the range not far longer?

    I just want to choose when it's worth some friendly fire to poor bolts into packed enemies without my crossbow men standing around doing nothing

    exactly. They are doing more damage by not firing at all than risking hitting friendlies.
    A brave man marches into danger and ignores his fear. A courageous man marches into danger while embracing his fear.

    OS: Windows 7 Premium 64 bit
    CPU: Intel i7 4970k 4.0 Ghz
    GPU: AMD r9 290x 4GB
    RAM: 16GB DDR3

    Veteran of the Total War franchise since Shogun: Total war. (I was 10)
  • GuvenorenGuvenoren Junior Member SwedenPosts: 277Registered Users
    edited June 2016
    I meant it would be too strong gameplay wise. The trick here is that you'll need to use the ranged units tactically. Flanking to get a better view. Thats the handgunners part.

    The crossbows on the other hand DO work when they use a high ground to rain fire on enemies. But I know what the issue here is. Even sometimes the handgunners or crossbows doesnt fire when inteded. Which would be great if it was fixed.

    But dont just put the crossbows or handgunners behind a unit and expect it to work. Take use of the ground, look around the map to find a spot which you believe works out for your army composition.
  • GuvenorenGuvenoren Junior Member SwedenPosts: 277Registered Users
    Besides, friendly fire was a big issue in the older titles. It even bothered me sometimes.
  • Sky_SweeperrSky_Sweeperr Senior Member OklahomaPosts: 1,701Registered Users
    Guvenoren said:

    Besides, friendly fire was a big issue in the older titles. It even bothered me sometimes.

    But it was tactically viable at times. At least it makes more sense than a unit refusing to fire at all if ordered. If I say to shoot, that unit should shoot.
    A brave man marches into danger and ignores his fear. A courageous man marches into danger while embracing his fear.

    OS: Windows 7 Premium 64 bit
    CPU: Intel i7 4970k 4.0 Ghz
    GPU: AMD r9 290x 4GB
    RAM: 16GB DDR3

    Veteran of the Total War franchise since Shogun: Total war. (I was 10)
  • GuvenorenGuvenoren Junior Member SwedenPosts: 277Registered Users
    edited June 2016
    it does, but instead you realize that wasn't really what you mean since if you would say fire you would also say "mind friendlies". Because why would you fire at your own troops? What do you gain?

    What is this, Soviet Russia? :D
  • DribbsDribbs Senior Member Posts: 1,288Registered Users
    This is indeed annoying.

    I've read about a workaround which is to target an enemy unit, then switch fire-at-will mode off for a second and then back on.

    I've not been able to try this with Dwarfs myself as I'm playing a Greenskin campaign at the moment.
  • Sky_SweeperrSky_Sweeperr Senior Member OklahomaPosts: 1,701Registered Users
    Guvenoren said:

    it does, but instead you realize that wasn't really what you mean since if you would say fire you would also say "mind friendlies". Because why would you fire at your own troops? What do you gain?

    What is this, Soviet Russia? :D

    It still makes more sense than no unit firing at all. And the fact that crossbows can't seem to shoot higher than 45 degrees is a major reason for the problem. Gun infantry i understand not shooting into your own ranks. But crossbows should be able to arch over their heads and shoot into the mob bombardment style.
    A brave man marches into danger and ignores his fear. A courageous man marches into danger while embracing his fear.

    OS: Windows 7 Premium 64 bit
    CPU: Intel i7 4970k 4.0 Ghz
    GPU: AMD r9 290x 4GB
    RAM: 16GB DDR3

    Veteran of the Total War franchise since Shogun: Total war. (I was 10)
  • GuvenorenGuvenoren Junior Member SwedenPosts: 277Registered Users
    Gun infantry i understand not shooting into your own ranks. But crossbows should be able to arch over their heads and shoot into the mob bombardment style.
    I agree with the Crossbow part. The only concern would be that it would be a mess to code perhaps. I wouldn't really know something like this, but they did make it in Medieval 2 no? :)

    I know that the crossbows can to some degree fire over buildings. Thought I must agree that firing a crossbow over others heads like that is a risky situation (even in real life) as its hard to co-ordinate where the bolt will land.
  • Sky_SweeperrSky_Sweeperr Senior Member OklahomaPosts: 1,701Registered Users
    Guvenoren said:

    Gun infantry i understand not shooting into your own ranks. But crossbows should be able to arch over their heads and shoot into the mob bombardment style.
    I agree with the Crossbow part. The only concern would be that it would be a mess to code perhaps. I wouldn't really know something like this, but they did make it in Medieval 2 no? :)

    I know that the crossbows can to some degree fire over buildings. Thought I must agree that firing a crossbow over others heads like that is a risky situation (even in real life) as its hard to co-ordinate where the bolt will land.

    Yeah they did it in medieval 2 and rome so it's not impossible. And it is risky - but that's what happened in war. They didn't flank archers around behind and shoot into the backs of the line - because usually there were more soldiers being kept in reserve. I don't know, i just really don't like the current system.
    A brave man marches into danger and ignores his fear. A courageous man marches into danger while embracing his fear.

    OS: Windows 7 Premium 64 bit
    CPU: Intel i7 4970k 4.0 Ghz
    GPU: AMD r9 290x 4GB
    RAM: 16GB DDR3

    Veteran of the Total War franchise since Shogun: Total war. (I was 10)
  • GuvenorenGuvenoren Junior Member SwedenPosts: 277Registered Users
    edited June 2016
    Well, this is not real life. This is a game as well, A strategy game as well which we as the player has to respect. Yes, most of games like this has to make sense like it is in real life but it doesn't have to be entirely based of real life. War, in real life, wasn't fair. A strategy game has to be fair. Try using some units behind your ranged units and you'll see it will confuse them, just as much as it will confuse you.

    For my own part, I didn't like Medieval 2 so much because of how clunky and annoying of a game it was.
  • Sky_SweeperrSky_Sweeperr Senior Member OklahomaPosts: 1,701Registered Users
    Guvenoren said:

    Well, this is not real life. This is a game as well, A strategy game as well which we as the player has to respect. Yes, most of games like this has to make sense like it is in real life but it doesn't have to be entirely based of real life. War, in real life, wasn't fair. A strategy game has to be fair. Try using some units behind your ranged units and you'll see it will confuse them, just as much as it will confuse you.

    For my own part, I didn't like Medieval 2 so much because of how clunky and annoying of a game it was.

    I feel like this one is clunkier and the ai is less self sufficient... I shouldn't have to move foot-archers around the flanks to hit the enemy. Thats not how foot missiles work. That's what mounted missiles are for. Otherwise there would be no point to having foot missiles in the first place except to get a couple shots off before the lines engage.
    A brave man marches into danger and ignores his fear. A courageous man marches into danger while embracing his fear.

    OS: Windows 7 Premium 64 bit
    CPU: Intel i7 4970k 4.0 Ghz
    GPU: AMD r9 290x 4GB
    RAM: 16GB DDR3

    Veteran of the Total War franchise since Shogun: Total war. (I was 10)

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