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The Dwarf's problematic (*The Multiplayer Balancing Grudge*)

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  • TreliantTreliant Posts: 197Registered Users
    After some more testing I think Iron drakes are amazing at "softening" enemy troops. I was really surprised to see the low kill counts on them in my games after seeing the health bar damage they inflict on targets. They are functioning more like the fate of bujna spell where their damage gets smeared out over multiple units as opposed to killing like thunderers do as their projectiles pile up on the first row of units killing them outright but leaving those behind max strength. As a flanking unit I still think Irondrakes are amazing, they seem to break lower armoured targets in combat far quicker than my thunderers/quarellers do, 1 volley is often enough to end it and they can pick another target wheras thund/quar need some time on target to make things happen. interesting to see how well troll hammers do against high armour infantry Carl_Bar. I'll have to mess around with that some and see what it feels like.
  • GuerrilleroGuerrillero Senior Member EstaliaPosts: 543Registered Users
    edited July 2016
    @Carl_Bar Hammerers and Ironbreakers are good units but far too expensive. As you said, Dwarfs need a lot of units to cover the lack of cavalry and bringing one unit of Hammerers is just going prevent you from bringing 2 units of GW warriors with some money left. Does that worth it? Maybe sometimes, but generally, I prefer 2 GW warriors, at least to cover a greater area.

    @Treliant Well, it's going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to flank with an unit of irondrakes. Maybe a very wide shoot arc would help to improve them while keeping them behind the front line.
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  • DeuzerreDeuzerre Member Posts: 939Registered Users
    @ OP:
    You shouldn't display "lack of diversity" as a argument to then ask for global buffs that don't do anything for diversity.
  • Carl_BarCarl_Bar Posts: 500Registered Users
    @ OP:
    You shouldn't display "lack of diversity" as a argument to then ask for global buffs that don't do anything for diversity.
    There's nothing that can be done. All the units dwarfs have in TT bar some special characters are in. What You See Is What You Get, or What Your Stuck With at least.
    @Carl_Bar Hammerers and Ironbreakers are good units but far too expensive. As you said, Dwarfs need a lot of units to cover the lack of cavalry and bringing one unit of Hammerers is just going prevent you from bringing 2 units of GW warriors with some money left. Does that worth it? Maybe sometimes, but generally, I prefer 2 GW warriors, at least to cover a greater area.
    Yeah that was my general feeling, and also that ironbreakers are a lot closer to ok than hammerers else. But like you say dwarfs need a lot of units. I just used them in the test scenario to guarantee the front line would hold while the missile troops get to shoot. It wasn't about hammerer performance at all. They were chaff in the tests.

    Like i say dwarfs with the way they're set up almost need hybrid units in the rear and flank sandwiching their arty and missile troops between them and the front lines, and the whole lot on that outer shell needs to stand upto cav charges and be able to tie cav up, even if they can't necessarily kick ass on their own.
  • RakdosRakdos Posts: 238Registered Users
    To Carl_Bar
    Whether in the presence in TWW mechanic, at which any skirmish unit with turned on 'fire at will' take much damage from enemy charge? If it still here, i doubt, that dwarf's players turn off 'fire at will' to quarrelers and thunderers before they been charged.
  • Carl_BarCarl_Bar Posts: 500Registered Users
    Warhammer has several units that have bows and melee weapons that should/would make them good vs cav, they may not have fixed it yet, but they're going to have to do so going forward at some point.
  • Elkantar1981Elkantar1981 Senior Member Posts: 613Registered Users
    edited July 2016
    Why i barely use Dwarfs Anymore in my Ranked Games after the wannabe Balance Patch:

    -No counter Snipe or Snipe
    -Runesmith nerf wasn't necessary
    -High Tier Units aka Ironbreakers and Slayers are Useless compared to the cost effectiveness, hold the Lina but dont kill stuff for 1,3k? (aka Ironbreakers)
    -Artillery is outmatched by Empire Artillery and will lose to it, due to Range, Fire Rate. Also Dwarf arty lose 1 Cannon per first Light Bolt.
    -Thunderers can't shoot on Humans/Orks when they 2 time's bigger models fight with the small infantry line, (they can in TT, yes friendly fire ofcourse too)
    -Overall low Attack Rating

    Actually Dwarfs are only good vs Chaos and Greenskins.
    They get Destroyed by Empire and VC.

    The Ironbreakers need AP Damage, Longbeards are Cheap but even with Great Weapons will lose to their great weapon counterparts.
    Fire Rate of Dwarfen Arty should be higher then other Faction's like 1,2 times. Also the Range should be the same or higher. Funny that a Empire Great Cannon has Higher Range then Dwarfen Arty beside Grudge Thrower.

    Organ Gun needs a huge Buff, same for Flamecannon, Hellblaster Volleygun to even considered.

    Irondrakes need a slightly Range Buff and a Buff to Rate of Fire.

    Gyrocopters is the most garbage unit for damage per goldcoin in this game. Every Faction counter them inhate. Flying Units Melee them to death, non flyers with range shoot them to death. They can't Harass, Nuke or do any real threat to enemy's to have them is wasted Gold atm.

    Lack of Counter General Snipe or Snipe.

    Can easily be kited if necessary.
  • eQsassyljayeQsassyljay Posts: 124Registered Users

    Why i barely use Dwarfs Anymore in my Ranked Games after the wannabe Balance Patch:
    ...

    -Runesmith nerf wasn't necessary...

    Also the Range should be the same or higher. Funny that a Empire Great Cannon has Higher Range then Dwarfen Arty beside Grudge Thrower....

    Grudge Thrower actually has same range as dwarf cannon which is 420, Empire Great Cannon has 450 so it outranges all dwarf artillery.
    And that nerf to the runesmiths damage over time ability ?!?!? What on earth made them do that? Was it some behind the scenes numbers that we don't know about or they decided as it is part of direct damage magic it needed nerfing? I find that one really hard to understand considering dwarfs position against other factions currently.
  • BugmansxxxBugmansxxx Posts: 237Registered Users
    edited July 2016
    Hi.

    Here is my two cents for making dwarfs and artillery more viable.

    Dwarf missile units.
    Dwarf armies are supposed to be missile heavy but the battles devolve in to general melees so fast missile units dont get to shoot that much.

    This problem was solved with mod "better guns" in workshop. It halves the RoF of guns (muskets) but doubles the damage gving them better burst damage. What it means is that those few shots you get of do real kills and it makes just charging a dwarfen gunline much more painful, as it should be.

    A smaller than 2x multiplier could also be used but imo. it is good as is. Narrow firing angles still make it fairly easy to run around missile units with cav.

    Artillery.
    Arty is mostly not worth its price for much due to same reason as missile units.
    I suggest dividing arty to two categories. Long range denial arty and damage dealers.

    Damage dealers would be organ gun, helblaster wolley gun and doom diver. these would stay as they are. (i put doom diver here because its the one arty that works. dont fix if not broken)

    Denial arty would be all catapults, cannons, mortars and rockets. these would get a supression effect much like some poison units currently have, reducing movement speed of affected units for a few secs. And a damage nerf to balance it out. Different sort of arty pieces would have different damage/supression balance.

    Arty could then (hopefully) be used to gain some control over the battlefied. An ability dwarfs desperately need and it would also discourage blobbing which would be good for the mp game as a whole. (less cheese)

    Flame weapons
    Flame cannons and irondrakes should also provide supression and alsi a stackable burning effect like wortex spells. So a single shot /wolley does not do much but a couple would deadly.

    Dwarf inf dont imo. need much changes, maybe make dwarfs need less lines in their formations to gain charge defence mass? or what ever its called.

    Gyros. I have no idea. Not sure what they are supposed to be used for but i´m sure they are not doing it well.

    I know nothing of modding so if anyone can do a mod to and test the arty idea it would be awesome.


  • killehtkilleht Posts: 75Registered Users
    I just started experimenting with Dwarfs and noticed they all have 25% magic resistance. Seems to me like they are heavily reliant on ranged units.
    I guess the cheaper Cannon, Catapult and Gyrocopters can harass and lure enemies in.

    I am thinking that maybe Dwarfs just are different to master than the other races.

    But as of now I cannot justify the Great Cannon's range since Gyrocopters are easily countered with pistol units.

    I see no other ranged unit that has more than 420 range though and wonder if it is that tough to move the Dwarf Cannon and Catapult within range of the Empire Great Cannon.

    I just tried out 9 Dwarf Catapults Vs. 9 Great Cannons and the Dwarf Catapult chew up the Great Cannons both in terms of moral and hit points.
    Not sure how this can be since the Great Cannon has much higher damage stats but I am not lying.

    Level was Southern Chaos Wastes and the AI was on very hard. The thing is that all Dwarf Catapults had higher hitpoints than all the Empire Great Cannons even if all the Empire Great Cannons did aim at just a few Dwarf Catapult.

    My leader was positioned far out of range from the Empire Great Cannons and I ordered all Dwarf Catapults to aim at one Great Cannon each.

    Seriously the Dwarf Catapults beat the Empire Great Cannons senseless. I am guessing it has to do with accuracy, but I am not too familiar with Total War stats.
  • Elkantar1981Elkantar1981 Senior Member Posts: 613Registered Users
    You cant test vs ai Test vs Players first. Also Grudge Thrower is the only cost effective arty. You compared grudge thrower with cannon but you have to test dwarve cannon vs great cannon in player vs player. When you test Grudge thrower the Empire Counterpart is Mortar. Also consider that dwarves dont have Cav or Light Cav, they have to make sure the enemy comes to them not vice versa. Grudge Thrower is also bad vs fast moving units like Cav while cannon is actually one of the light counters for dwarves vs specific heavy cav units, and armored infantry.
  • GuerrilleroGuerrillero Senior Member EstaliaPosts: 543Registered Users
    edited July 2016
    I have seen catapult performing better than cannon in many cases except when attacking monsters and cav. That's when you prefer to bring cannons. Maybe against empire is better just to bring catapults or one of each?
    Malekith is the true Phoenix King and Wood elves can suck my Widow-maker

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  • killehtkilleht Posts: 75Registered Users
    edited July 2016
    Kenshin Ushira:

    If I compare Grudge Towers (Dwarf Catapults) with Mortars the Grudge Towers have have longer range, slightly more damage and are armor piercing which Mortars are basically not.

    My point was more to compare the range of Dwarf artillery compared to the Empire Great Cannon (which has the longest range that I know of) and how they compare in battle because Dwarfs seem to rely on ranged tactics.

    Like I said the Grudge Towers smashes the Empire Great Cannon when in range.

    Just played a Quick Battle with Dwarfs and won. I fail to see the balance issues with Dwarfs honestly.

    I just sniped a flying general with 3 Dwarf cannons and they do not run out ammo as easily as a wizard runs out of mana when they finished the general (or nearly finished him. 10-20% hitpoint reduction is a good result).

    Edit: On top of that all Dwarf units have 25% magic resistance.
  • GuerrilleroGuerrillero Senior Member EstaliaPosts: 543Registered Users
    killehtU said:

    Kenshin Ushira:

    If I compare Grudge Towers (Dwarf Catapults) with Mortars the Grudge Towers have have longer range, slightly more damage and are armor piercing which Mortars are basically not.

    My point was more to compare the range of Dwarf artillery compared to the Empire Great Cannon (which has the longest range that I know of) and how they compare in battle because Dwarfs seem to rely on ranged tactics.

    Like I said the Grudge Towers smashes the Empire Great Cannon when in range.

    Just played a Quick Battle with Dwarfs and won. I fail to see the balance issues with Dwarfs honestly.

    I just sniped a flying general with 3 Dwarf cannons and they do not run out ammo as easily as a wizard runs out of mana when they finished the general (or nearly finished him. 10-20% hitpoint reduction is a good result).

    Edit: On top of that all Dwarf units have 25% magic resistance.

    There are very clear weaknesses of Dwarfs but if the opponent doesn't exploit then, of course you can win as Dwarfs. Using 3 cannons as snipers is spending 2400 gold on killing their general, much much more than any wizard or sorcerer. And your ammo left will be not well used as cannons are made to make the damage before the melee engage.

    People who are not familiarized with the TW mechanics will be easy to defeat with any faction, including Dwarfs, that doesn't makes them a balanced faction. There are some builds for Empire and Greenskins that many people use to defeat Dwarfs and they are just unbeatable, like a spam of Dark Orks. To defeat Dwarfs you just need mobility and armor piercing.
    Malekith is the true Phoenix King and Wood elves can suck my Widow-maker

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  • killehtkilleht Posts: 75Registered Users
    edited July 2016
    Well I still used the cannons after melee battles started.. The cannons where not meant for killing their general but got his hitpoint down to 10%~ because he did not dear to approach the first 10 min and tried to use rocket artillery which my cannons also smashed... :-)

    As for using mobile units against Dwarfs I think it is on purpose that the Dwarfs are a ranged faction, and therefore you are supposed to outrange mobile units with artillery, Quarrellers, Thunderers & etc.?
    I am not very familiar with the stats of Dwarfs but since they are all armoured (except Slayers) I guess they also have combat statistics to at least hold the line for a while against armor piercing units (and buffs like charge defence that I do know of)?
    A mix of melee infantry, ranged units, Irondrakes and artillery should take care of armor piercing units?

    As for general sniping the cannons far outrange in example Spirit Leech and can also still be used after units engage in melee battle if you position the Dwarf artillery correctly and are able to defend them.

    My experience is that Dwarfs are a ranged and slow faction so you only deploy them so that they can bombard the enemies while not in melee and so that the ranged units are able to support the melee units and maybe use Gyrocopters to harass strategic key units.

    The only artillery to outrange the Dwarf Cannon is the Empire Great Cannon but like I stated in my last post these are easily countered by Grudge Towers that you also can move within range.

    420 and 450 range aint that big of a range difference:


    If the Empire player chooses to deploy his Great Cannons at the back of his deployment zone you should be able to avoid its firing range knowing how to deploy against Empire as a Dwarf player but they are so easy to get into range and like I said the Grudge Towers smashes them. Again I use Empire Great Cannon as the example because this is the only thing that outranges Dwarf artillery.

    I might be stating the obvious, but I do not belive that all the testers, Games Workshop and CA would let Dwarfs get into the final game product being broken like that (not being able to counter mobility and armor piercing units) especially since mobiliy and armor piercing has been a feature in all Total War games that I know of..
  • LichtbringerLichtbringer Junior Member Posts: 33Registered Users
    Dwarves have weaknesses. That's OK.
    They are supposed to have strengths. They need to do their job.

    Artillery and Slayers need to be flat Out better.

    Melee units need to be better against cav. Let's be honest you will never get the enemy to charge Headon into your braced units. Even if you do, you had to stretch them too much, and half of your unit goes flying. The enemy can just run away or pull through. If you are in deep lines you gain nothing if the enemy charges you. He can just rum away again.

    So all Dwarves need more mass, and Lords flat out need knockback/down immunity. (why do Lords even have charge resistance? (while braced) who would leave their Lord standing still? And he still Flys when charged.)

    Or if we don:t want more mass for all, we could get dedicated spear units with charge reflexion damage.

    With that alone I would be happy. Let me be the unmoved let stonewall I am supposed to be.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Posts: 2,617Registered Users


    And that nerf to the runesmiths damage over time ability ?!?!? What on earth made them do that? Was it some behind the scenes numbers that we don't know about or they decided as it is part of direct damage magic it needed nerfing? I find that one really hard to understand considering dwarfs position against other factions currently.

    They nerfed all direct damage abilities. Fate of Bjuna, spirit leach, and accuse were all too strong and got nerfed. Sadly though, final transmutation and the runesmith damage rune were about right and they got nerfed too. Just an over arching nerf by someone who understood part of the problem, and wanted to make sure they fixed it, which they did.

    They ended up making a new problem, but hopefully that will be fixed soon while the other too strong direct DPS spells/abilities remained toned down.

    Also remove accuse from the game. It makes no sense and never will.
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  • Th3NarkTh3Nark Posts: 157Registered Users
    killehtU said:

    WORDS WORDS WORDS.....I said the Grudge "TOWERS" smashes them WORDS WORDS WORDS...

    Sorry but this was annoying the crap out of me... It's Grudge THROWERS, not towers... they're catapults that throw stuff, not towers...

    Now back on topic, any halfway decent empire player should of destroyed you with DGKs if all you had was Grudge Throwers - 2 Demis with no cannons softening them up would just get into your back line and destroyed all of that Dawi ranged advantage.
    If you turned a few troops to try and deal with them (and you would need at least 2-3 units to scare 1 demi off) your front line would be too weak to hold vs greatswords and they would tear through your frontline and into your ranged - if their cav backs off so you put those units back to the front line to defend - cav comes back, charges and destroys your ranged.

    That is usually how games vs half way competent empire players will normally go if you don't do a bit of damage to the DGKs before they get to your flank I find and I'm ranked about 300~ with playing (usually) nothing but dwarfs and have about 130 wins or so, even if you do get off quite a bit of damage they can still tear the **** out of your back line.
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