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What units are people not seeing the ai recruit?

Skinny_dragonSkinny_dragon Registered Users Posts: 153
I keep seeing complaints about ai recruitment of high tier units. However in my vc normal campaign I think I've seen most units fielded at some point.

So far the units I've noticed missing are araknaroch or whatever that giant spider is called and the steam tank( there was one in Altdorf garrison but I'm only counting recruited armies)

Maybe my campaign is different to others or maybe I just haven't noticed the gaps so I'd like to know what Ive been missing.
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Comments

  • mrindigo00mrindigo00 Registered Users Posts: 104
    They may have a few high tier units but not enough and come too late.

    By the time they come along you own have the map.

    In other words, AI armies dont provide a challenge 1v1 when it mattered. Generally a player can smash AI armies 1v3 on VH and even in 1v4 situations, rarely loses.

    What AI needs is a recruitment buff that allows them to recruit good units without having the buildings or something. Elite units need to start coming by around turn 50, and by turn 100 the stacks should be 100% elite units to make them viable opponents
  • Skinny_dragonSkinny_dragon Registered Users Posts: 153
    Ah I see its my play style that's making the difference. I played slow and steady buddied with order forces to crush chaos then orcs. Then worked with empire to destroy everyone else so by end game me and empire had half of the occupiable map each and it was much later than turn 100
  • nyraannyraan Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 164
    from my experience factions like the dwarves and vampire counts do deploy elite armies.
    next in my list are the chaos warriors, ignoring the sometimes annoying horse archer spam I wish they will someday be able to deploy dragon ogres and shaggoths with high level heroes other than archeon.
    AI empire faction selection is the most lackluster of them all. mainly do to norscans bleeding there economy and cities dry while having to build a set of buildings together in the same province to recruit those unique elite units.
    personally i have no XP fighting greenskins so I can't give feedback for them.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,254
    Empire seems to be the worst yeah. Turn 250 and stacks of pistoleers, heroes, mortars and luminarchs.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • GRAY_HATGRAY_HAT Senior Member UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,394
    never seen most of the high level artillery, no flame cannons or hellblasters.
    Team Wood Elves

    boyfights loves wood elves.

    "Heaven forbid that under the Vail of military training we should subject our young men to the lust of our general" - Hanno to the Carthaginian senate on the future of Hannibal.

    "Guard mode is back in Warhammer :)" - Darren_CA

    "It's amazing how many mistakes your enemy will make in haste after seeing that he's outgunned" -The Organ King
  • AvadonAvadon Registered Users Posts: 1,543

    I keep seeing complaints about ai recruitment of high tier units. However in my vc normal campaign I think I've seen most units fielded at some point.

    So far the units I've noticed missing are araknaroch or whatever that giant spider is called and the steam tank( there was one in Altdorf garrison but I'm only counting recruited armies)

    Maybe my campaign is different to others or maybe I just haven't noticed the gaps so I'd like to know what Ive been missing.

    I saw one Bretonnia army have 6 Trebs in it.....

  • CragsclawCragsclaw Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 112
    A lot of the key Empire units require multiple buildings in the capital and you cannot really fit them all in one provincial capital. So the AI does not cater well as it mostly ends up with only one building of a set and therefore limits itself to only the more common troop types with one building requirements.

  • Total War ftwTotal War ftw Member Registered Users Posts: 1,237

    I keep seeing complaints about ai recruitment of high tier units. However in my vc normal campaign I think I've seen most units fielded at some point.

    So far the units I've noticed missing are araknaroch or whatever that giant spider is called and the steam tank( there was one in Altdorf garrison but I'm only counting recruited armies)

    Maybe my campaign is different to others or maybe I just haven't noticed the gaps so I'd like to know what Ive been missing.

    I just faced a ironhide lead greenie army on my chaos game with 3 freaking giant spiders in one stack! :O I had doomcannon's which I used to snipe em or they may have been a handfull.. Both my giants would have probably been killed in the process of taking them down. They just don't go down ez. The Slaughterer had 3-4 as well and he ended up defending a base I was seiging so they were a pain to deal with. Thanksfully though I had plenty of giants and sorcerers to take em out.
  • Total War ftwTotal War ftw Member Registered Users Posts: 1,237
    Cragsclaw said:

    A lot of the key Empire units require multiple buildings in the capital and you cannot really fit them all in one provincial capital. So the AI does not cater well as it mostly ends up with only one building of a set and therefore limits itself to only the more common troop types with one building requirements.

    That and they seem to cop it from all ends.. I can't seem to get a break here. I'm at war with a fair amount of human factions, vamps want to kill me, dwarfs are unfriendly lil turds, the northern **** and chaos is about to come.. The empire AI is probably the weekest of the playable factions i've seen so far. They either get wiped out fast or somehow manage to survive by making peace with everyone and confederating when possible yet still remain one of the weekest factions on the map.
  • endurendur Registered Users Posts: 3,381
    Haven't seen dragon ogres in a chaos army (other than quest battles).

    Rarely see high level monster mounts (dragons, manticores, etc.) other than quest battles.

  • scfs123scfs123 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 974
    Anything in the Chaos roster that is not a Marauder horseman/hellcannon . . .

    Greenskins i feel don't recruit night goblins very much

    Dwarves - Irondrakes

    Bretonnia - Pegasus Knights
  • Total War ftwTotal War ftw Member Registered Users Posts: 1,237
    scfs123 said:

    Anything in the Chaos roster that is not a Marauder horseman/hellcannon . . .

    Greenskins i feel don't recruit night goblins very much

    Dwarves - Irondrakes

    Bretonnia - Pegasus Knights

    vs my greenies they had a lot. Are night gobos that good?
  • AvadonAvadon Registered Users Posts: 1,543
    endur said:

    Haven't seen dragon ogres in a chaos army (other than quest battles).

    Rarely see high level monster mounts (dragons, manticores, etc.) other than quest battles.

    General group of dragon orgers seem weak to me though, so no surprise that the AI doesn't recruit them.

  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,254
    Avadon said:

    endur said:

    Haven't seen dragon ogres in a chaos army (other than quest battles).

    Rarely see high level monster mounts (dragons, manticores, etc.) other than quest battles.

    General group of dragon orgers seem weak to me though, so no surprise that the AI doesn't recruit them.
    Wut.

    Doesn't stop the AI making stacks of pistoleers. Literally the worst unit in the game.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • AvadonAvadon Registered Users Posts: 1,543

    Avadon said:

    endur said:

    Haven't seen dragon ogres in a chaos army (other than quest battles).

    Rarely see high level monster mounts (dragons, manticores, etc.) other than quest battles.

    General group of dragon orgers seem weak to me though, so no surprise that the AI doesn't recruit them.
    Wut.

    Doesn't stop the AI making stacks of pistoleers. Literally the worst unit in the game.
    Why do you think the greater concensus say or type that the total war warhammer AI is utterly idiotic.

  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,254
    The Warhammer AI is not "utterly idiotic", but it's far from amazing.

    Stacks of pistoleers don't help it's case.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 17,635
    Greenskins - They've recruited everything but doom divers.
    Dwarves - Hammerers
    VC - Recruit all I believe.
    Empire - Nothing above T3 and no GS.
    Chaos - Recruits all non DLC units.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • konokonokonokono Registered Users Posts: 299
    Does anyone know if the AI can cheat on building requirements?

    If not - they really should.
  • Skinny_dragonSkinny_dragon Registered Users Posts: 153
    I'm fairly sure I've seen t3+ empire I don't know their roster but facing a lot of demigryph reiksguard empire knights luminarch and hellblasters, also it uses pistoleers and outriders as a combined force with heavy cav which means that my fast units can't chase them down as easily so my lack of range is a challenge. Then again I stopped norsca being a threat so the empire had time to develop.
  • AvadonAvadon Registered Users Posts: 1,543

    I'm fairly sure I've seen t3+ empire I don't know their roster but facing a lot of demigryph reiksguard empire knights luminarch and hellblasters, also it uses pistoleers and outriders as a combined force with heavy cav which means that my fast units can't chase them down as easily so my lack of range is a challenge. Then again I stopped norsca being a threat so the empire had time to develop.

    Why did you let that happen.....

  • Skinny_dragonSkinny_dragon Registered Users Posts: 153
    Head canon I was playing that my vc were pretending to be loyal counts right up to the end.

    Plus it is making for a fun end game with the final duel for the empire.
  • FlurryFlurry Registered Users Posts: 70
    The army compositions are soooooo bad, too much ranged units and too few elite units and when they build elite units they build them way too late, turn 60 the first longswords? i got 4 full armies of demigryphs, steamtanks, longswords and so on in my army by then. Its just no challenge.
  • WalashWalash Registered Users Posts: 340
    Flurry said:

    The army compositions are soooooo bad, too much ranged units and too few elite units and when they build elite units they build them way too late, turn 60 the first longswords? i got 4 full armies of demigryphs, steamtanks, longswords and so on in my army by then. Its just no challenge.

    Are you playing normal or easy?

    4 full elite armies by turn 60 seems a bit fast
  • VorgorVorgor Registered Users Posts: 2
    edited July 2016
    Hi guys
    New to the forum. Just bought TWW.
    Just a comment over AI. Really intelligent in battle but I have to agree with a few of you.
    Seems like an easy solve by the developers though.

    All minor settlements have the same linear build tree, starts from one path then spreads up
    Capital has the same but at its apex it has access to higher unit creation? That should make capitals tough to take also no? Holding different locations still remains strategic however, and doesn't cripple the AI from defending itself or building an army, therefore the enemy always remains a threat. Resources can still be managed, money is still earned. The more territory you own, should be more expensive to manage. It might become strategic therefore to sacrifice settlements. In an effort to cut costs, save money and manage your armies more effectively until the time is right to strike back!

    Just a thought, not a modder, don't even know if it's possible?
    Thanks, gotta say, love the game though:)
  • DeathofjamsDeathofjams Registered Users Posts: 290
    When playing as Chaos I ended up facing some seriously scary Empire armies - 4-5 greatswords per stack, luminarks, steam tanks, generals on griffons. But that was because I spent way too much time conquering the Norscans so they had loads of time to develop. So I don't think it's necessarily the building AI which is the problem, but rather the instability generated by constant war, particular with raze-happy factions like Norsca.

    VC often get decent armies (I think the Raise Dead mechanic helps a lot) as do the Greenskins, largely because if they beat the Dwarfs they pretty can pretty much develop completely unhindered. If Bretonnia doesn't get wiped out they tend to spam Grail Knights, I think because their recruitment building doubles up as an anti-corruption building so they're more likely to build it.

    So yeah, a flat AI cheat wouldn't have the same effect on every faction. I think a better way would be to nerf the Norscans and reduce the chance of the AI Empire faction warring with its close neighbours (particularly the Dwarfs like Karak Norn, who are likely to destroy Empire towns and set their development back to zero)
  • StoreslemStoreslem Registered Users Posts: 304
    i have never seen the ai recruit or use gorebeast chariot & dragon ogres.
  • VorgorVorgor Registered Users Posts: 2
    Good point deathofjams!
    Also maybe the map is to small? Doubling its scale NOT size (and therefore the number of towns) would slow down faction expansion, allowing each faction to grow more methodically and gradually. Individual tech trees with their own growth path might be convoluting things for the AI. I tried an experiment on turn one with a money cheat activated. For the next 5 turns I gave each active faction the largest money/resource payment gift that I could do, at which point I saved the game and restarted without the cheat. By turn 10 I was seeing different AI, more balanced army production, and better units were being fielded by each faction. By turn 25-40 I was fighting for my life!

    Gonna try this with each faction and drop down some feedback.
    Valantis...
  • Mojo_AmokMojo_Amok Registered Users Posts: 210
    Apparently using the Tier 4 minor settlement mod will help the AI field better units:
    Solution: Tier 4 Minor Settlements
    This mod allows both the player and AI to upgrade their minor settlements to Tier 4, and what this does is help the AI when it decides to do something ****, like building an armory in a minor settlement. As a result the AI is now able to upgrade the armory and others, even when it messes up the build location, resulting in the player seeing more late game units than they otherwise would. Please note that the AI won't retrain armies, so if their starting armies aren't destroyed, you may still see trash tier armies in the late game.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/4trvs1/here_are_some_mods_to_help_alleviate_common/?st=iqx17853&sh=dd68e26c

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=700071210

    I never used it because I was afraid it was unbalanced and a cheat for the player, but after seeing some massive AI ineptitude in a recent play through I'm now considering those to very much be peripheral concerns.
  • AvadonAvadon Registered Users Posts: 1,543
    Tohibii said:

    Apparently using the Tier 4 minor settlement mod will help the AI field better units:

    Solution: Tier 4 Minor Settlements
    This mod allows both the player and AI to upgrade their minor settlements to Tier 4, and what this does is help the AI when it decides to do something ****, like building an armory in a minor settlement. As a result the AI is now able to upgrade the armory and others, even when it messes up the build location, resulting in the player seeing more late game units than they otherwise would. Please note that the AI won't retrain armies, so if their starting armies aren't destroyed, you may still see trash tier armies in the late game.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/4trvs1/here_are_some_mods_to_help_alleviate_common/?st=iqx17853&sh=dd68e26c

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=700071210

    I never used it because I was afraid it was unbalanced and a cheat for the player, but after seeing some massive AI ineptitude in a recent play through I'm now considering those to very much be peripheral concerns.


    Makes you think , why didn't CA do this.....

  • Mojo_AmokMojo_Amok Registered Users Posts: 210
    edited July 2016
    Avadon said:

    Makes you think , why didn't CA do this.....

    It strikes me as being a stopgap and i don't even think the mod maker had any idea that it was going to improve the AI's recruitment capabilities (going by the mod description).

    CA need's to do one of two things, IMO:

    1) Genuinely give the AI the capability to construct in a rational and efficient manner (as well as recover from losing territory that they had recruitment buildings in)

    2) Decouple the buildings from the recruitment and abstract how their economy and recruitment works. ie. I don't care how it works under the hood, but I do care that they generate armies that are entertaining to fight against.
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