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Soooooo I heard that Wood Elves ignore Regional Occupation mechanic

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  • EldrickEldrick Posts: 392Registered Users
    Angmir said:

    ....
    ....
    ........
    ........
    .............
    .............

    HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHHAHA

    <<<<<(More maniacal laughter and cacling)>>>>>

    .................
    .................

    So

    The turtling Wood Elfs that almost never leave their cosy Forest can conquer entire map now (maybe without Norsca), while the rest are still stuck with RO.

    I want to see the faces of all thouse who preached how they made Regional Ocupation for the lore and for the sake of intresting gameplay, and bla bla bla.

    If it turns out to be true (well it is officialy anounced) - all reasons behind RO go to ****.

    It was obvious since day 1 - RO was done to push the game faster - so they dont have to remodel any settlements, when they were pushing hard to release game on apointed day. Same with multiple starting locations per faction.

    Now that their shareholders have their pockets full - now they do what should have been done from day 1.

    - no silly conquest restrictions
    - multiple faction per race
    - etc

    Still most saddening thing is there are alwasy people out there defending every move of game developers no matter how absurd they are. I remeber that flame wars on forum when RO was anounced. Now they are betrayed by the very thing they defended ....

    As a side note - I love this game - I want to thank CA for all post-release support for it.
    I am glad the game is finaly moveing in the right direction, but it wasnt always the time.
    Release was obviously rushed and cut bare, game was dumbed down a lot just to be released on time.

    Now I am optimistic it can yet reach it potencial - thank you.

    Please dont hesitate to correct your past misstakes, there are still a lot of things that could use fixing.

    PS> To make it clear to thouse less bright who keep writing similar posts.

    As I recall on reading about it, it's less like ignoring regional occupancy and more like minor outposts of the elves so I think it's safe to assume these outposts won't serve the same exact role as cities and any role they do fill will be less impactful and worth less to the elves.

    Thats what we always wanted for other races too

    Dwarfs Ooutposts and wachtowers on the lowlands

    Vampire Keeps in the Mountains

    Empire Mining settlements in Mountains

    And O&G should be free to settle anywhere


    Turns out that wood Elves get Exacly that what we people complaining against RO at launch wanted for all races.
    Lol, hope this rant reduces your dependency on blood pressure medication....
  • JastallJastall Junior Member Posts: 985Registered Users
    VlKNG said:

    If the system works (allowing three types of outpost on a razed settlement) I wouldn't mind it for all the other races, but I want RO to stay.

    Why?

    There is no reason why orcs wouldn't occupy empire cities given half a chance.

    Vampires take power wherever they can find it (Neferata lives in a Karak)

    The empire would be foolish to turn down the chance to occupy a Karak, even if just to use it as a mining outpost.

    Dwarfs prefer to live underground, but for militaristic means could build an outpost anywhere. (The rangers spend most their time out in the open and there are several dwarfs living and Working for the empire, this demonstrates that dwarfs don't HAVE to live in a Karak).

    RO was clearly just a time saving mechanic for CA.
    I think it's more that cities are actually, well, cities. They're not military garrisons. They're places with loads of civilians, farms, businesses, courts, etc. Sure, one vampire and her cadre of followers, as well as their unliving armies, can occupy a Karak. But an Imperial underground city is unlikely, humans don't have the knowledge of Dwarfs when it comes to living underground. Same for Dwarfs having a lot of their population on the surface, rather than just adventurous traders, colonists and Rangers.

    For the Greenskins, I think the explanation is that the Orcs aren't going to just start taxing the population. But it's not like they do it when taking Karaks either, so that's the one part where the explanation is shakier.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    edited November 2016
    Icecream said:

    Angmir said:



    I don't really care if an Orc would live in an empire city, I played without RO and simply didn't like it as much.

    Not sure what you mean by 'time saving mechanic'.

    Exacly what I ment

    They were running late with the game development - game was only 50% ready some 3 months before release, and so they had to cut the content as much as they can to be able to release working copy on apointed Launch date.

    It was obvious then it is proven true now.

    There were many more corners cut at that time, some features might have been removed we might never even know egsisted. Now they try to put some of thouse back in.

    We have seen it with Skarsnik Belegar and Wurzag, missing units, and now with them finaly backing away (slowly) from RO.


    Biggest Cut remains a gaping wound to this day However

    The Siege Battles
    50% is just a random number or you really have any proof or clue about this?
    I would say sieges are still 75% unfinished. I can prove it with science! and I agree with Angmir that sieges are, and will continue to be, the biggest dark mark against TWW and CA.
  • SchepelSchepel Senior Member Posts: 1,502Registered Users
    @ OP:

    RO was announced almost a year in advance, or so. Feel free to believe any nonsense you want, but as conspiracy theories go, this one is a bit on the weak side. Also, you very clearly have no clue whatsoever as to how much time it takes to make a game. 3 months prior to release, they might have been able to change a few models, but the game must have been 99% ready at that point. Large design decisions would *not* have been made without the time to actually implement them. Again, feel free to believe anything you want, but if you want to trick people into believing your conspircay theories, at least put some effort into making them slightly believable.
  • Bel_IsarBel_Isar Posts: 653Registered Users
    Graden said:

    They can ''conquer'' Norsca as well, it's confirmed.

    Of course they can! I the tree´s in the frozen north deserve the most cuddleing amongst all trees, so Woodelves s

    VlKNG said:

    If the system works (allowing three types of outpost on a razed settlement) I wouldn't mind it for all the other races, but I want RO to stay.

    Why?

    There is no reason why orcs wouldn't occupy empire cities given half a chance.

    Vampires take power wherever they can find it (Neferata lives in a Karak)

    The empire would be foolish to turn down the chance to occupy a Karak, even if just to use it as a mining outpost.

    Dwarfs prefer to live underground, but for militaristic means could build an outpost anywhere. (The rangers spend most their time out in the open and there are several dwarfs living and Working for the empire, this demonstrates that dwarfs don't HAVE to live in a Karak).

    RO was clearly just a time saving mechanic for CA.
    I think it's more that cities are actually, well, cities. They're not military garrisons. They're places with loads of civilians, farms, businesses, courts, etc. Sure, one vampire and her cadre of followers, as well as their unliving armies, can occupy a Karak. But an Imperial underground city is unlikely, humans don't have the knowledge of Dwarfs when it comes to living underground. Same for Dwarfs having a lot of their population on the surface, rather than just adventurous traders, colonists and Rangers.

    For the Greenskins, I think the explanation is that the Orcs aren't going to just start taxing the population. But it's not like they do it when taking Karaks either, so that's the one part where the explanation is shakier.
    Humans wouldn´t settle a existing karak, they would rather build a city on top of it, like they did in middenheim and skavenblight before the skavens. If they can´t build it directly on top of it, they most likely would build it somewhere in the general area. I would even wonder if there are no smaller villages in the World Edge mountains on trade routes between the empire and the dwarfs. If the dwarfs would "vanish" humans would surely try to gain a hold of the local resources. They just don´t do it, couse Dwarfs and Humans kinda like each other.

    Dwarfs lived outside the mountains before the war of the beard. Skavenblight is outside the mountains. Hell, you can even already concquer the badlands wich are not mountains. The Empire has a large minority of Dwarfs living in it. Altdorf and Nuln, according to the lore, have enough dwarfs to field dwarfen units in time of needs.

    Vampires "live"everywhere, where humans live. If that happens to be in the mountains, they will live there too. NEferata is a bit of a odity though, normal Vampires tend to nest in human socity rather than claim a depopulated dwarfen karak, let alone for the fresh blood reserves ;)

    Orks are orks... they don´t care. They would even settle underwater if they get fights out of it... If enough orks belive, they can breath under water, they eventually will settle there aswell and beat the **** out of fishys...

    So lorewise the argument never realy made sence. But that the most isolotionistic faction of all, the wood elves, suddenly can build outposts in the frozen north or the tree-free badlands while the Empire can´t even claim a iron-Mine in the mountains... At that Point, the Lore-argument for RO just doesn´t work at all...
  • oleryscolerysc Posts: 56Registered Users
    Firstly, Regional occupation is a by-design thing and it's been a mod that can turn it off from Day 1. Wooden Elves do not viloate RO rule as they can build only limited outposts outside Athel Loren.

    But to tell the truth it would be good to have other faction to build something (outpost for men , tower for dwarf, tomb for VC, etc) in the regions that it can't occupy with special mechanic for this faction (currently we can only raze if we want to clean the place). It would really make sense and introduce more option into campaign gameplay.
  • OrontesOrontes Junior Member Posts: 432Registered Users
    edited November 2016
    RO was always an absurdity. The Dev's own comments on the subject were full of contradictions. I never play without the mod that disables it. It's good to see CA have learned from the original error. It would be better still if they gave the core factions expansion options similar to the Wood Elves.

  • Filthy_man_thingFilthy_man_thing Posts: 474Registered Users
    edited November 2016
    I think this is a bit paranoid to be fair :p

    Personally, I still like RO better having tried it both ways. Would I have liked `outpost settlements` for all races?.... Maybe, who knows? Haven't tried it, of course, but I honestly think it's just more likely that CA- like with the minor faction start locations- are taking criticism on board and listening to player feedback, rather than being steadily handed back control from a cabal or shadowy council of tyrannical shareholders.

    ...Although if that IS the situation, I hope they've the decency to model themselves after the council of 13, elaborate plots and treachery aplenty.

  • DebaucheeDebauchee Junior Member Posts: 1,401Registered Users
    edited November 2016
    Orontes said:

    RO was always an absurdity. The Dev's own comments on the subject were full of contradictions. I never play without the mod that disables it. It's good to see CA have learned from the original error. It would be better still if they gave the core factions expansion options similar to the Wood Elves.

    In theory, RO is not a terrible game design, but it's current implementation is horrible. Just look at VC victory condition, which involves wiping out dwarves... People have been asking for some alternative form of control over regions, but they were stuck with razing. Razing is a great mechanic, I have nothing against it, but TW:Attila showed us, that it's only good in small portions.
    Luckily CA has competent developer team, who listens to player's feedback and slowly, but surely, fix the drawbacks of vanilla game.
    I believe, that CA made the first step with "Call of the beastmen" DLC, by introducing those "blasphemous monuments". It was not just regular razing - it was an option , which provided an alternative form of control over a territory. An option, which introduced a more meaningful interaction with campaign map, as oppsoed to just "painting it gray".
    The second step is upcoming "Realm of the wood elves", which will bring us elven outposts. Those outposts are the very thing, that RO critics were asking for. It won't provide you the benefits of a regular settlement, but it's so much better, than razing.
    Considering how the game map will be expanded, it's only logical to expect, that every settled faction will get an analogue of an outpost at some point in future. How could anyone think, that RO will persist in it's current unfinished state? What's the point of having Lizardmen and Dwarfs on the same map, when neither of them will leave their borders?
    Post edited by Debauchee on
  • busa27busa27 Senior Member Posts: 1,744Registered Users
    As Wood Elves player I think I'm ok with that but I would hate if Wood Elves crush Bretonnia and take all its settlements in all my campaigns....
  • HarconnHarconn Posts: 839Registered Users
    edited November 2016
    Adding Outposts for the other races should be moddable, shouldn't it? Would make sense.

    Of course this outposts should have some (minor) effect.

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  • Overlord87Overlord87 Posts: 824Registered Users
    While I disagree with the general view of the OP, I agree that all races should be able to build a fort on a razed settlement.

    This fort would cost you money each turn, could only be upgraded in terms of garrison, and having walls, could be decently defended. It would allow you to replenish your troops faster and recruit at a "local" price from the "global" list.

    Since these forts would cost you money and produce no resource, you wouldn't build many of them, but could use them as base of operations in enemy territory.

    Then, some races could be better than others at building forts, like wood elves having different options and actually gaining something from them. VC forts could spread some vampiric corruption. Dwarfs forts would cost a lot but have good defense and garrisons, while Greenskins would be cheap but also much less defendable.
  • GRAY_HATGRAY_HAT Senior Member UKPosts: 5,394Registered Users
    busa27 said:

    As Wood Elves player I think I'm ok with that but I would hate if Wood Elves crush Bretonnia and take all its settlements in all my campaigns....

    yes, especially when there are some perfectly good dwarfs nearby
    Team Wood Elves

    boyfights loves wood elves.

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  • seienchinseienchin Senior Member Posts: 4,571Registered Users
    busa27 said:

    As Wood Elves player I think I'm ok with that but I would hate if Wood Elves crush Bretonnia and take all its settlements in all my campaigns....

    But his is bound to happen... either bretonnia shreds them or they shred bretonnia. Its TW ;)

    I am very divided on this topic. On one hand CA takes some risk and creativity (finally) and gives us new campaign mechanics that arent recycled at all from other TW games but on the other hand it completely ignores the lore.

    I really dont know... But hey the game isnt exactly overflowing with lore anyway. Its not call of warhammer its a fun interpretation of warhammer and therefore it might make sense to change certain factions for gameplay reasons.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 13,131Registered Users, Moderators
    I don't think this totally ignores the lore. I mean, Wood Elves would no doubt have some outposts scattered throughout the old world (the better to intercept threats to Athel Loren before they reach the place). What is somewhat odd is that they have to destroy a standard settlement there rather than simply putting it in a forest, but I'm willing to accept that as a mechanics limitation.
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  • Defiler_of_the_NorthDefiler_of_the_North Under a bar stool in a random tavern located within AltdolfPosts: 415Registered Users
    edited November 2016
    To be honest I don't know why they don't just implement RO as a on/off check box next to the difficulty slider when starting a campaign, it could say "By ticking this box you want to turn off RO which will blah blah blah".

    Best of both worlds then and everyone is happy, plus it wouldn't be that difficult to implement.
    Doesn't matter what you say, Balthasar Gelt is the best legendary lord and the lore of metal needs nerfing.

    Currently suffering from a serve case of Bretonnia fever, the only cure is slaying Orks with the righteous fury of the Lady.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 13,131Registered Users, Moderators

    To be honest I don't know why they don't just implement RO as a on/off check box next to the difficulty slider when starting a campaign, it could say "By ticking this box you want to turn off RO which will blah blah blah".

    Best of both worlds then and everyone is happy, plus it wouldn't be that difficult to implement.

    Well, they made a mod for that. There is a nice check box in the mod manager that lets you turn it on and off. Its the same thing. And I'm rather pleased they didn't waste time on making it themselves, since that energy could be better spent elsewhere, and got a modder to do it.
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  • oleryscolerysc Posts: 56Registered Users
    edited November 2016
    Harconn said:

    Adding Outposts for the other races should be moddable, shouldn't it? Would make sense.

    Of course this outposts should have some (minor) effect.

    Yes, already appeared mods that make ruins razed by VC produce vampiric corruption; Chaos rift produce chaos corruption. In fact we can treat outposts as special ruins that hard to settle + special bonus unique to faction, which make campaign gameplay with more options.
  • Defiler_of_the_NorthDefiler_of_the_North Under a bar stool in a random tavern located within AltdolfPosts: 415Registered Users
    Canuovea said:

    To be honest I don't know why they don't just implement RO as a on/off check box next to the difficulty slider when starting a campaign, it could say "By ticking this box you want to turn off RO which will blah blah blah".

    Best of both worlds then and everyone is happy, plus it wouldn't be that difficult to implement.

    Well, they made a mod for that. There is a nice check box in the mod manager that lets you turn it on and off. Its the same thing. And I'm rather pleased they didn't waste time on making it themselves, since that energy could be better spent elsewhere, and got a modder to do it.
    True, but it would save some headache and stop people from moaning about RO.

    Personally I'm fine with RO as it stops me from declaring war with everything that moves in the first 50 turns and makes me seek to build alliances with neighboring factions .
    Doesn't matter what you say, Balthasar Gelt is the best legendary lord and the lore of metal needs nerfing.

    Currently suffering from a serve case of Bretonnia fever, the only cure is slaying Orks with the righteous fury of the Lady.
  • oleryscolerysc Posts: 56Registered Users
    edited November 2016

    To be honest I don't know why they don't just implement RO as a on/off check box next to the difficulty slider when starting a campaign, it could say "By ticking this box you want to turn off RO which will blah blah blah".

    Best of both worlds then and everyone is happy, plus it wouldn't be that difficult to implement.

    It would be ideal, but in this case you double time needed for proper balance of faction and their starting positions. So they added mod that are supported by comminity and is used for your own risk.
  • DebaucheeDebauchee Junior Member Posts: 1,401Registered Users
    @Seienchin
    In my opinion the game, the game already has an adequate amount of lore: the are lots of references and events, and factions stay true to their playstyles. Factions staying true to their isolationists politics, like they do in TT? No, that's too much. It will intefere with TW formula.
    If CA has a great idea/mechanic for GC, which is not supported by status-quo in the lore, the should just call it an alternative timeline, like "Warhammer: Age of Reckoning" did. Honestly, I don't think, that CA's version of events will be any worse, than canon "End Times" and "Age of Sigmar".
    I believe, that game is getting back on tracks in terms of Grand Campaign. Outposts for settled races will make current RO a smoother and more enjoyable experience. Faith in CA restored.
  • AngmirAngmir Senior Member Posts: 1,253Registered Users
    olerysc said:

    Firstly, Regional occupation is a by-design thing and it's been a mod that can turn it off from Day 1. Wooden Elves do not viloate RO rule as they can build only limited outposts outside Athel Loren.

    But to tell the truth it would be good to have other faction to build something (outpost for men , tower for dwarf, tomb for VC, etc) in the regions that it can't occupy with special mechanic for this faction (currently we can only raze if we want to clean the place). It would really make sense and introduce more option into campaign gameplay.

    OFCOURSE they Violate the RO.

    They do claim the region where they build the outpost. It is the very definision of Ocupation.

    And ONCE AGAIN I tell you - thats what should be allowed for other races from the start.
  • Lord_NathanaelLord_Nathanael Posts: 1,496Registered Users
    edited November 2016
    when the dwarfs say "you can't touch us, you can't conquer karaks"

    http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/amr5Z7y_460sv.mp4



    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 10,220Registered Users
    edited November 2016
    Angmir said:

    ....
    ....
    ........
    ........
    .............
    .............

    HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHHAHA

    <<<<<(More maniacal laughter and cacling)>>>>>

    .................
    .................

    So

    The turtling Wood Elfs that almost never leave their cosy Forest can conquer entire map now (maybe without Norsca), while the rest are still stuck with RO.

    I want to see the faces of all thouse who preached how they made Regional Ocupation for the lore and for the sake of intresting gameplay, and bla bla bla.

    If it turns out to be true (well it is officialy anounced) - all reasons behind RO go to ****.

    It was obvious since day 1 - RO was done to push the game faster - so they dont have to remodel any settlements, when they were pushing hard to release game on apointed day. Same with multiple starting locations per faction.

    Now that their shareholders have their pockets full - now they do what should have been done from day 1.

    - no silly conquest restrictions
    - multiple faction per race
    - etc

    Still most saddening thing is there are alwasy people out there defending every move of game developers no matter how absurd they are. I remeber that flame wars on forum when RO was anounced. Now they are betrayed by the very thing they defended ....

    As a side note - I love this game - I want to thank CA for all post-release support for it.
    I am glad the game is finaly moveing in the right direction, but it wasnt always the time.
    Release was obviously rushed and cut bare, game was dumbed down a lot just to be released on time.

    Now I am optimistic it can yet reach it potencial - thank you.

    Please dont hesitate to correct your past misstakes, there are still a lot of things that could use fixing.

    PS> To make it clear to thouse less bright who keep writing similar posts.

    As I recall on reading about it, it's less like ignoring regional occupancy and more like minor outposts of the elves so I think it's safe to assume these outposts won't serve the same exact role as cities and any role they do fill will be less impactful and worth less to the elves.

    Thats what we always wanted for other races too

    Dwarfs Ooutposts and wachtowers on the lowlands

    Vampire Keeps in the Mountains

    Empire Mining settlements in Mountains

    And O&G should be free to settle anywhere


    Turns out that wood Elves get Exacly that what we people complaining against RO at launch wanted for all races.
    You heard wrong.

    WE are incredible restricted.
    While they can "own" provinces outside of AL, only in it they have actual cities/building slots (and can defend them).

    WE don't ignore RO, they embrace it.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • OspreyOsprey Posts: 500Registered Users
    I think some people are confused about the outpost, it's definitely not "conquer or settling". I bet these outposts can be taken down easily by the enemy.
    I tried conquer anywhere mod, but didn't like it. Everytime you end up with a friendly/ally faction occuping some of your cities and you can't own the whole province. Maybe for VC and Greenskins works because they are at war with almost everybody, but not for Empire and Dwarfs.
  • Anubis259Anubis259 Senior Member AyrPosts: 399Registered Users
    Well to be fare, there only outposts not settlements, and it makes sense for gameplay. Plus wood elves would venture out and do have other settlements in other places besides Athel Loren. The fact that lore wise they don't settle open plains or karaks I think this mechanic addresses quite well. Simple outposts kinda make sense and give you a reason to "expand".
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  • Bel_IsarBel_Isar Posts: 653Registered Users
    Does it realy matter if it´s a settlement or a "outpost"? They, the faction wich never leaves their woods, can own every province while expansionist factions can´t. The Empire has colonies in the world but a mining outpost for valuable resources on their borders is out of the question, while tree dudes can just plant a new tree to cuddle there?

    It just doesnt make sense at all...

    That said, i like the outpost mechanic but every faction should be able to do it.
  • seienchinseienchin Senior Member Posts: 4,571Registered Users

    @Seienchin
    In my opinion the game, the game already has an adequate amount of lore: the are lots of references and events, and factions stay true to their playstyles. Factions staying true to their isolationists politics, like they do in TT? No, that's too much. It will intefere with TW formula.
    If CA has a great idea/mechanic for GC, which is not supported by status-quo in the lore, the should just call it an alternative timeline, like "Warhammer: Age of Reckoning" did. Honestly, I don't think, that CA's version of events will be any worse, than canon "End Times" and "Age of Sigmar".
    I believe, that game is getting back on tracks in terms of Grand Campaign. Outposts for settled races will make current RO a smoother and more enjoyable experience. Faith in CA restored.

    Yeah then we are almost on the same page. Although I think they dont care about the lore of warhammer enough and it feels really strange to me that the wood elves are the one to brake the RO mechanic in the end we are both happy that they try new ways.
    The outpost mechanic indeed could be a really good feature if other races get something similiar but I doubt this will happen. If it would happen then awesome.
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Posts: 5,340Registered Users
    VlKNG said:

    If the system works (allowing three types of outpost on a razed settlement) I wouldn't mind it for all the other races, but I want RO to stay.

    Vampires take power wherever they can find it (Neferata lives in a Karak)
    At no point is the Karak that Neferata is functional in any way or produces anything of use for the Vampires.
    Just because someone lives in a cave doesn't mean we can build cave cities.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 10,220Registered Users
    Bel_Isar said:

    Does it realy matter if it´s a settlement or a "outpost"?

    I get the feeling you will revisits this once we see more of that system in action.
    Because the information suggest that are worlds between a real settlement, restricted for WE to have only on AL, and a outpost. While a Empire faction doesn't "owns" all provinces like WE, they REALLY own the onces they have.
    Unlike WE; which may have not even 10 to that this really applies to.
    So only real advantages is the movement of troops with replenishment, thou I think it will be easy to cut that off, since I doubt that the outpost will be able to defend themselves too much.
    They, the faction wich never leaves their woods, can own every province while expansionist factions can´t.

    "expansionist" is a big word for the Empire and not fitting for Dwarfs.
    But again, if you consider how the game works, then a race like the Empire still works with roughly owning 50% of the map.
    WE would own maybe 2-5%?

    (Ps it is not really true to claim that WE never leave AL and being truthful is actually cool)
    The Empire has colonies in the world but a mining outpost for valuable resources on their borders is out of the question, while tree dudes can just plant a new tree to cuddle there?

    considering that one doesn't require A) to wipe out they oldest ally and B) doesn't come with "live without sunshine", "hordes of Skaven/Gobblins and worse attack you", "tunnelfighting which the Empire troops are not made for" and "problems to get ANY food" and the other one doesn't I can see why the Empire would do one and not the other.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
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