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Elves, Wood Elves and Balance (Question)

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  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,303

    Krunch said:

    Seldkam said:

    Dark shards have shields, nuff said--

    But why do you say high elf archers are better ?

    High Elf Archers are more traditional line archers, as is the entire faction. They should stand tall against basically everything but Quarellers. They should not be able to fire while moving however IMO as a balancing feature and should be as I said traditional line archers, though I forget if they could shoot and move in the tabletop.
    they could not, if they could their Seaguard would be so OP it's not even funny...

    when Dark/high elfs come im scared that units such as whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lothern_Sea_Guard
    or whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Corsair that will fill the role of both support fire and frontline troops that if they get a *dwarf like endgame econ* they'll be to op to bother playing in the age of peace - they'll be fine in MP just cuz price balance is fine for 1v1 armies if tuned right but in an unlimeted funds 20stack army ... hmmm
    Corsairs ranged damage will be like the Free Companies as they are now, a little extra bonus damage at range, I don't expect the corsair ranged damage to carry them at all. LSG don't have the best bows iirc and so would have less range and probably poor AP damage. Still a pretty good package though depending on their price.
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member Las Vegas, Nevada, USARegistered Users Posts: 5,710
    edited December 2016
    grayhat said:

    Erminaz said:

    Seldkam said:


    But why do you say high elf archers are better ?

    I would like to know this as well, unless he is talking about Lothern Sea Guard who can have shields but would have shorter range do to their bows.
    in 6e the extra armour the high elf archers ware gave them the edge every time, at the high end waywatchers need forest to be even with sea guard. (also only glade guard had special bows)

    In 8e the changes mean they are about even again but wood elves now win in the wood
    I don't really see where High Elves archers would out perform the special ammunition of the Wood Elves, I would think that armored archers would be pretty even in the exchange or be slightly beneath the Wood Elves. High Elves don't have special ammunition (excluding the Sisters of Avelorn) and their bows do not have AP in TT like the wood elf Asrai Longbows have. Lothern Sea Guard might be okay when given shields but they should have a shorter range do to their bow not being longbows. So if you give Sea Guard a shield I imagine the range difference won't be to much of a problem do to block chance but I don't really see why High Elves armored archers should out perform the Wood Elves as Krunch seems to be indicating. What am I missing or failing to comprehend?

    Edit: Also remember that High Elves will have Eagle Claws Bolt Throwers to support their archers, it won't be up to their bowmen alone to do ranged damage. (outside of magic I mean)

    Edit 2: Tried to make my post a bit more understandable.
    Post edited by Erminaz on
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • cool_ladcool_lad Senior Member IndiaRegistered Users Posts: 2,276
    So to clarify, would this be accurate?
    1. Elven units in general are exceptionally good at their assigned roles, being some of the best if not the best at quickly killing the enemy. Skill and damage would be higher across the board than just about any other enemy unit.
    2. This is compensated by their low numbers and high cost, along with their general fragility and (for the wood elves) mostly low armour.
    3. For the wood elves specifically, they generally should have the exceptional stats but really low armour, emphasizing a playstyle focused on hit and run, ambush and shock tactics; using their high damage potential while now allowing themselves to be targeted. This is supplemented by forest spirits, who reverse the general elven trend by being extremely durable and capable of grinding it out in combat (and under fire) for extended periods of time.

    A few more specific questions; what do you think of these ideas?
    1. Would you then say that the eternal guard should be much better at holding a line, but vulnerable to being outflanked, cavalry (or monster) charged or (for the unshielded variant) being quickly shot to pieces.
    2. The archers should have higher range, rate of fire and damage than any other ranged unit, along with tactical flexibilty in the form of a good melee attack (and maybe the ability to switch arrows). This being compensated by being unable to last in melee due to low armour and melee defense.
    3. The wardancers should be a shock unit in that they would pretty much melt enemies in melee, but again be vulnerable to ranged attack and being flanked; providing a more offensive melee unit which still manages to hold its own in an engagement.
    4. The wood elf cavalry would act like classic lancer cavalry; combining exceptional charge damage, weapon damage and melee attack, but being quickly slaughtered in any engagement they do not quickly pull out of. Requiring a heavy emphasis on hit and run.
    5. Great Eagles, Dragons and Hawk Riders should be classed as elven instead of tree spirit and consequently be a part of Orion's roster instead of Durthu's.
    6. Stalk and snipe should be available to wood elf ranged units.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,342
    Krunch said:

    Seldkam said:

    Dark shards have shields, nuff said--

    But why do you say high elf archers are better ?

    High Elf Archers are more traditional line archers, as is the entire faction. They should stand tall against basically everything but Quarellers. They should not be able to fire while moving however IMO as a balancing feature and should be as I said traditional line archers, though I forget if they could shoot and move in the tabletop.
    Ah in that case Yea they're not glade guard levels of precious, they can be put in a regular regiment of archers and take losses without losing the game lol.

    Arguably tho, dark shards weren't even a no brainer, many thought they were somewhat situational.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • epic_159732489858zE2g60qepic_159732489858zE2g60q Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,314
    My opinion after completing the grand campaign with Orion is that the WE is weak in the beginning but strong in mid and end campaign (provided you have enough ambers lol).

    Their 0 level units are lower or the same as every orher factions but when they get buffed from LL then they're almost unstoppable. Maybe it was by design to prevent early steamrolling from the player in SP campaign?
  • ITA_Vae_VictisITA_Vae_Victis Senior Member ItalyRegistered Users Posts: 1,649
    edited December 2016
    grayhat said:

    Erminaz said:

    Seldkam said:


    But why do you say high elf archers are better ?

    I would like to know this as well, unless he is talking about Lothern Sea Guard who can have shields but would have shorter range do to their bows.
    in 6e the extra armour the high elf archers ware gave them the edge every time, at the high end waywatchers need forest to be even with sea guard. (also only glade guard had special bows)

    In 8e the changes mean they are about even again but wood elves now win in the wood
    In 6e Glade Guards had S4 bows in short range (15 inches or less), so I guess they could easily manage to win a 1 on 1 duel with High Elves archers. I don't remember the point costs however, so it's possible HE archers would win by sheer number at equal points.
  • GRAY_HATGRAY_HAT Senior Member UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,394


    In 6e Glade Guards had S4 bows in short range (15 inches or less), so I guess they could easily manage to win a 1 on 1 duel with High Elves archers. I don't remember the point costs however, so it's possible HE archers would win by sheer number at equal points.

    the bonus was only at close range while the armour was at all ranges. so you had to win tactically to win the missile battle.
    Erminaz said:


    I don't really see where High Elves archers would out perform the special ammunition of the Wood Elves,I would think that armored archers would be pretty even in the exchange or be slightly beneath the Wood Elves.

    special ammo was 8e. (6e had spirits instead but they are for the trees)
    Erminaz said:

    High Elves don't have special ammunition (excluding the Sisters of Avelorn) and their bows do not have AP in TT like the wood elf Asrai Longbows have.

    so are the Asrai longbows, glade guard had a short range version in 6e but it was tricky to get the most out of that
    Erminaz said:

    Lothern Sea Guard might be okay when given shields but they should have a shorter range do to their bow not being longbows. So if you give Sea Guard a shield I imagine the range difference won't be to much of a problem do to block chance but I don't really see why High Elves armored archers should out perform the Wood Elves as Krunch seems to be indicating. What am I missing or failing to comprehend?

    now in 8e and for TWW yes wood elves should out perform a similar number of high elf archers when using magical ammo and the AP vs no armour means they are in a luck of the roll without them.

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  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,270
    Will there be any balance patch this week to make Wood Elves stronger?
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  • HarconnHarconn Registered Users Posts: 937

    Will there be any balance patch this week to make Wood Elves stronger?

    I think they buff them a bit, but this week? Doubt that!

    I just hope making Wood Elves glass cannons (without even cannons and disadvantages like no real economy, no armor, no city walls, amber retriction,...) does not mean dark/high elves also will be this weak.
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  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,270
    Harconn said:

    Will there be any balance patch this week to make Wood Elves stronger?

    I think they buff them a bit, but this week? Doubt that!

    I just hope making Wood Elves glass cannons (without even cannons and disadvantages like no real economy, no armor, no city walls, amber retriction,...) does not mean dark/high elves also will be this weak.
    this is what pains me the most. I got hyped for the whole 'glass cannon', imagining volleys of deadly shards purging battlefields, but nope. All the other changes I would welcome too. If not this week, then I'm afraid we won't see it until new year. Not exactly the best thing for sales, I guess?
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
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  • odsy2odsy2 Registered Users Posts: 716
    they really aren't far off on the balance. In my opinion their ranged units need either a little buff or a price reduction
  • Reaper49Reaper49 Registered Users Posts: 747
    edited December 2016
    Im the only one who found Wood elves OP?
    Eternal guards + glade guards with starfire shafts +wild riders for the price they have in costume battle ill really like to tell me something that can kill them. Take 6 eternal guards shields 6 glade guards starfire shafts 3 wild riders with shields and a lord. I found nothing to counter that. Dont play like hit and run tactics cause you dont need that. Your main line of shields can last forever and arrows kill anything that isnt in melee. cav is chasing the altillery and its gg. Archers are clearing the area. You have so many arrows that hit so hard that even their cav cant reach you. and if you take a healing hero with you i can defeat 2 stacks of an enemy easy. Done that on very hard campaing many times on costume seems so easy to defeat anything. Empire especially can to anything to wood elfs.
    Sadly for me this isnt like they said hit and run tactics feels more like op elves. Found some units useless like higher tier archers , eagles is a joke cant do anything, missile cav is the best in wood elves but has no point when you have so stront front line, lords are also good, wild riders are so op i mean they hit so hard for their cost. Heavy cav from empire demigriffs maybe can match their damage but you can deploy 2 for the price. Dragons can make the damage but they are weak and need micro to survive the day so its more situational rather tactic, tree kins are good but can go down from enemy fire quick and the wardancers what can i say guys this unit reck anything take swords no infantry can survive take spears bye bye cav , take male option and what did you said about armoured infantry? . All and all wood elfs are low tier op faction for me, higher tier units arent that good with the exeption of wild riders.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,342
    That's because this is primarily a multi-player thread bro. Balance discussion area tends to be about MP as it is far more important there than in SP.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • BillyRuffianBillyRuffian Moderator UKRegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 37,869
    There is a new hotfix beta that does some balancing.

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  • ValeliValeli Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,003
    edited December 2016
    Did all of you people praising HE archers /ever/ even play this game? It sounds like you have from the rest of your comments but... god.

    HE archers were so shockingly innefective for their points. You'd take them to fill the minimum core requirements, and snipe off a rank bonus before engagements started. Or.... shoot at light cav. They were actually good at that. But in general that's a unit that never got its points back.

    If people took it, it's mostly because we had to fill in something there. I wouldn't want my HE archers to trade fire with quarrelers, thunderers, brettonian peasants, or just about anything really. They cost a small fortune, and fell apart in a stiff breeze. BS4 and long range does not a great unit make.

    If we have another round of "elves are UP!!!!!" threads when HE come out because they can't mow people down with their archers, I might need a serious forum vacation. I don't think I can deal with this twice.
  • GaryBuseysGrinGaryBuseysGrin Registered Users Posts: 1,722
    I was looking forward to Wood Elves because I thought they would be more like the Hattori in Shogun 2; low numbers, hard-hitting, extensive stealth and deployment capability, all gave me my most satisfying tactical successes. That's tactical, not click-fest. What I had read about WE at least implied they were similar enough, I thought their adaptation to Total War would tread this tried, tested and provably effective ground.

    Jesus. F. Kennedy. Christ. On. A. Stick. I haven't been this wrong since I bought the Evolve PC Monster Race Edition.

    Looking at CA's new FAQ on the Wood Elves corresponding with the new beta hotfix(http://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Wood_Elves_Hotfix_Beta), CA seem dead-set on the mono-tactical click-festing of Total War, where diversity of tactics is just diversity of flanking. Hammer and anvil even get a mention, because Wood Elves really don't have anything that other races don't, except limitations.

    The issue with archers shooting AT trees? Completely glossed over. The accuracy stat in the game is almost pointless considering the overall terrible range of missile units in Warhammer, it's made worse when it does nothing to stop them wasting arrows like this.
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member Las Vegas, Nevada, USARegistered Users Posts: 5,710
    edited December 2016
    GRAY_HAT said:


    In 6e Glade Guards had S4 bows in short range (15 inches or less), so I guess they could easily manage to win a 1 on 1 duel with High Elves archers. I don't remember the point costs however, so it's possible HE archers would win by sheer number at equal points.

    the bonus was only at close range while the armour was at all ranges. so you had to win tactically to win the missile battle.
    Erminaz said:


    I don't really see where High Elves archers would out perform the special ammunition of the Wood Elves,I would think that armored archers would be pretty even in the exchange or be slightly beneath the Wood Elves.

    special ammo was 8e. (6e had spirits instead but they are for the trees)
    Erminaz said:

    High Elves don't have special ammunition (excluding the Sisters of Avelorn) and their bows do not have AP in TT like the wood elf Asrai Longbows have.

    so are the Asrai longbows, glade guard had a short range version in 6e but it was tricky to get the most out of that
    Erminaz said:

    Lothern Sea Guard might be okay when given shields but they should have a shorter range do to their bow not being longbows. So if you give Sea Guard a shield I imagine the range difference won't be to much of a problem do to block chance but I don't really see why High Elves armored archers should out perform the Wood Elves as Krunch seems to be indicating. What am I missing or failing to comprehend?

    now in 8e and for TWW yes wood elves should out perform a similar number of high elf archers when using magical ammo and the AP vs no armour means they are in a luck of the roll without them.

    Why are we using 6th edition when talking about implementing races as presented in 8th? Dark Elves, High Elves, and Wood Elves all had 8th edition army books.
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • ValeliValeli Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,003
    edited December 2016
    Why are we using 8th as the "only" way to implement races when 8th no longer exists either?

    We're translating a dead table-top game to a living PC game that, while trying to accomplish the same general things, uses significantly different mechanics. Wouldn't it be helpful if everyone could be a touch open-minded? Just a touch, mind you. But still.
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