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Wood elves, lore+tt accuracy vs gameplay viability

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  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176
    edited December 2016
    Bel_Isar said:

    Erminaz said:

    Bel_Isar said:

    Additionaly a Elf isn´t born with 1000 years of Fighting experience. Basic Spearmen are just Milita-Troops. Elfen-Milita, sure, but they much rather have like 500 years of Farming Experience and might hold a Spear the first time.
    Empire State Troops however are Professional Soliders, they might have a short live compared to Elves and are slower but they dedicated their Live to Warfare and train their whole live.

    Elite-Elf Units should indeed be superior but Basic Spearmen? Its Elfs, not Astartes...

    Ummm... which Elves are we talking about?

    Wood Elves (8th Edition):

    Glade Guard:
    "In time of need, every Wood E lf can answer the call to defend their forest home, for all are trained in the arts of
    the longbow as soon as they can hold one. After all, in Athel Loren, archery is not just a tool of battle but one of many hunter’s skills vital to an Elf’s survival. When an Elf comes of age, he or she will be formally inducted into their household’s Glade Guard, and given responsibility for patrolling of a section of the forest."

    Eternal Guard:
    "Only skill on the field of battle can earn an honoured place within the ranks of the Eternal Guard, for that duty is a difficult and dangerous one...

    "Each Eternal Guard is a formidable foe in her own right, trained to a pinnacle of skill..."

    High Elves: Under Ulthuan Militia (8th Edition)

    "When a High Elf begins his martial training he first learns the arts of swordsmanship and archery. Only when he has mastered both blade and bow is he inducted into the white-garbed ranks of an archer regiment...

    Once trained, an archer serves in his regiment for a decade or more, forsaking all previous allegiances...

    After a decade or so, if the Elf has proven his worth as an archer, he is called to fight as part of a spear regiment..."

    These aren't people who are conscripted and thrown into battle with little or no prior training, they are people who enter a well regulated militia system and spend decades learning the trade. It is more of a reserve system then the most basic and unregulated militia system.
    All that snipets with "Theyre the best of the best" can be found for Empire State Troops, Orks, Dwarfs, Chaos in their books aswell...

    If elves have to have decades of training for a Spear-Regiment... Lets just say they didn´t perform on the TT like decades of training. They surely where supperior to Human Spearmen and not bad by any stretch but nothing on the "Super Human with decades of Training"-Level, wich some people want them to be...

    Maybe Humans just learn faster. After all, their Technology developed further despite being the youngest race ;)

    Don´t get me wrong, a Single Elv should definitly be superior but those calls for dodging bullets and arrows with ease is just silly and comes more from "GW-Sell-talk" than their actuall capabilitys on the TT


    i dont want them doding arrows or bullets, i might be a super elf fanboy but its not realistic for basic units to be dodging 100 arrows coming at them at once... if it was a single arrow and they knew where it was coming from and when itd be fired? sure i can see that, but thats a very specific scenario, and i honestly am fine with the damage/endurance the elves put out, i just think they should be more fragile when out numbered and survivable when fighting smaller units

    i think we need to discuss what 1ws or 1 str means when comparing humans and elves, because the difference can be quite absurd, especially when we look at some of the most powerful units in the game having ws around 6? and some god units not even having 10

    id say it like this
    1 = untrained clumsy idiot
    2 = untrained mortal man
    3 = trained mortal man
    4 = incredibly skilled mortal man
    5 = prodigy
    6 = barely even human anymore
    7+ pretty much a demigod
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701
    edited December 2016
    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
    Your suggestions make no sense from a lore or realism perspective. Dodging is already represented by melee defense. And not even Elves can dodge arrows.
    to which i reply with this from the main post
    Squallsy said:

    sure a wood elf can dodge an arrow or two but an entire volley? they arent demigods, merely super humans, they cant dodge that!

    i am not suggesting that they dodge arrows, thats a little absurd imo!

    i also heavily question why if melee defence is representing a dodge chance that wood elves on average actually have lower melee defence then humans.....? considering humans wear heavy armour, and infinitely less skilled, i think thats a poor representation of dodge.... you know... since a human wearing a good 30-40 pound metal suit is considerably higher melee defence then a naked elite elf....
    Armor weighs like 2-5 pounds. You can do backflips and handstands in a suit of plate armor. Also melee defense isn't just dodging, it's a composite of factors.


    Edit: also the only Spear Elves that are Militia are HE spears. But military service is mandatory on Ulthuan, lasting centuries, so they are very well trained by human standards.
    a full set of medieval plate armour can easily weigh up to 110lbs, now if we are talking about what generic infantry units wear in warhammer? thats easily 40lbs+, you just lost all credibility....
    i think gothic plate (which was more or less one of the best suits you could get) was between 40 to 50 pounds (altough not including Gambeson etc. i think)

    but yes... you definitely wont be doing any backflips in plate armour nor full chainmail... atleast if you value your backs health... cause hte landings wont be too comfortable i guess
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member USARegistered Users Posts: 5,909

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
    Your suggestions make no sense from a lore or realism perspective. Dodging is already represented by melee defense. And not even Elves can dodge arrows.
    to which i reply with this from the main post
    Squallsy said:

    sure a wood elf can dodge an arrow or two but an entire volley? they arent demigods, merely super humans, they cant dodge that!

    i am not suggesting that they dodge arrows, thats a little absurd imo!

    i also heavily question why if melee defence is representing a dodge chance that wood elves on average actually have lower melee defence then humans.....? considering humans wear heavy armour, and infinitely less skilled, i think thats a poor representation of dodge.... you know... since a human wearing a good 30-40 pound metal suit is considerably higher melee defence then a naked elite elf....
    Armor weighs like 2-5 pounds. You can do backflips and handstands in a suit of plate armor. Also melee defense isn't just dodging, it's a composite of factors.


    Edit: also the only Spear Elves that are Militia are HE spears. But military service is mandatory on Ulthuan, lasting centuries, so they are very well trained by human standards.
    a full set of medieval plate armour can easily weigh up to 110lbs, now if we are talking about what generic infantry units wear in warhammer? thats easily 40lbs+, you just lost all credibility....
    i think gothic plate (which was more or less one of the best suits you could get) was between 40 to 50 pounds (altough not including Gambeson etc. i think)

    but yes... you definitely wont be doing any backflips in plate armour nor full chainmail... atleast if you value your backs health... cause hte landings wont be too comfortable i guess
    You have to remember that it isn't all the weight being located in one spot, it is distributed across the body. The myth that armor was extremely encumbering for someone that trained regularly in it is just that, a myth.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176
    Erminaz said:

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
    Your suggestions make no sense from a lore or realism perspective. Dodging is already represented by melee defense. And not even Elves can dodge arrows.
    to which i reply with this from the main post
    Squallsy said:

    sure a wood elf can dodge an arrow or two but an entire volley? they arent demigods, merely super humans, they cant dodge that!

    i am not suggesting that they dodge arrows, thats a little absurd imo!

    i also heavily question why if melee defence is representing a dodge chance that wood elves on average actually have lower melee defence then humans.....? considering humans wear heavy armour, and infinitely less skilled, i think thats a poor representation of dodge.... you know... since a human wearing a good 30-40 pound metal suit is considerably higher melee defence then a naked elite elf....
    Armor weighs like 2-5 pounds. You can do backflips and handstands in a suit of plate armor. Also melee defense isn't just dodging, it's a composite of factors.


    Edit: also the only Spear Elves that are Militia are HE spears. But military service is mandatory on Ulthuan, lasting centuries, so they are very well trained by human standards.
    a full set of medieval plate armour can easily weigh up to 110lbs, now if we are talking about what generic infantry units wear in warhammer? thats easily 40lbs+, you just lost all credibility....
    i think gothic plate (which was more or less one of the best suits you could get) was between 40 to 50 pounds (altough not including Gambeson etc. i think)

    but yes... you definitely wont be doing any backflips in plate armour nor full chainmail... atleast if you value your backs health... cause hte landings wont be too comfortable i guess
    You have to remember that it isn't all the weight being located in one spot, it is distributed across the body. The myth that armor was extremely encumbering for someone that trained regularly in it is just that, a myth.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI
    sorry for the slow reply, i had to sleep, but in regards to the video you have linked, first off, the person has trouble and is barely wearing half of a full plate armour set, secondly, this is not a combat armour set, this is a tournament armour set, itd easily weight well over double what that one does, and if you think that this in no way makes one slower? then i severely question your judgement
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member USARegistered Users Posts: 5,909
    Squallsy said:

    Erminaz said:

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
    Your suggestions make no sense from a lore or realism perspective. Dodging is already represented by melee defense. And not even Elves can dodge arrows.
    to which i reply with this from the main post
    Squallsy said:

    sure a wood elf can dodge an arrow or two but an entire volley? they arent demigods, merely super humans, they cant dodge that!

    i am not suggesting that they dodge arrows, thats a little absurd imo!

    i also heavily question why if melee defence is representing a dodge chance that wood elves on average actually have lower melee defence then humans.....? considering humans wear heavy armour, and infinitely less skilled, i think thats a poor representation of dodge.... you know... since a human wearing a good 30-40 pound metal suit is considerably higher melee defence then a naked elite elf....
    Armor weighs like 2-5 pounds. You can do backflips and handstands in a suit of plate armor. Also melee defense isn't just dodging, it's a composite of factors.


    Edit: also the only Spear Elves that are Militia are HE spears. But military service is mandatory on Ulthuan, lasting centuries, so they are very well trained by human standards.
    a full set of medieval plate armour can easily weigh up to 110lbs, now if we are talking about what generic infantry units wear in warhammer? thats easily 40lbs+, you just lost all credibility....
    i think gothic plate (which was more or less one of the best suits you could get) was between 40 to 50 pounds (altough not including Gambeson etc. i think)

    but yes... you definitely wont be doing any backflips in plate armour nor full chainmail... atleast if you value your backs health... cause hte landings wont be too comfortable i guess
    You have to remember that it isn't all the weight being located in one spot, it is distributed across the body. The myth that armor was extremely encumbering for someone that trained regularly in it is just that, a myth.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI
    sorry for the slow reply, i had to sleep, but in regards to the video you have linked, first off, the person has trouble and is barely wearing half of a full plate armour set, secondly, this is not a combat armour set, this is a tournament armour set, itd easily weight well over double what that one does, and if you think that this in no way makes one slower? then i severely question your judgement
    Notice I said extremely cumbersome, not that it wouldn't have an effect at all. Mobility does get limited to some extent but the myth that it made it so that you could barely move and being knocked on your back would prevent you from getting up is a myth. Armor does restrict some movement and such but it isn't a liability. Also it does matter how the weight is distributed, 70+ pounds all together in a box is a lot different than 70+ pounds across the entire body.
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,701
    edited December 2016
    Erminaz said:

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
    Your suggestions make no sense from a lore or realism perspective. Dodging is already represented by melee defense. And not even Elves can dodge arrows.
    to which i reply with this from the main post
    Squallsy said:

    sure a wood elf can dodge an arrow or two but an entire volley? they arent demigods, merely super humans, they cant dodge that!

    i am not suggesting that they dodge arrows, thats a little absurd imo!

    i also heavily question why if melee defence is representing a dodge chance that wood elves on average actually have lower melee defence then humans.....? considering humans wear heavy armour, and infinitely less skilled, i think thats a poor representation of dodge.... you know... since a human wearing a good 30-40 pound metal suit is considerably higher melee defence then a naked elite elf....
    Armor weighs like 2-5 pounds. You can do backflips and handstands in a suit of plate armor. Also melee defense isn't just dodging, it's a composite of factors.


    Edit: also the only Spear Elves that are Militia are HE spears. But military service is mandatory on Ulthuan, lasting centuries, so they are very well trained by human standards.
    a full set of medieval plate armour can easily weigh up to 110lbs, now if we are talking about what generic infantry units wear in warhammer? thats easily 40lbs+, you just lost all credibility....
    i think gothic plate (which was more or less one of the best suits you could get) was between 40 to 50 pounds (altough not including Gambeson etc. i think)

    but yes... you definitely wont be doing any backflips in plate armour nor full chainmail... atleast if you value your backs health... cause hte landings wont be too comfortable i guess
    You have to remember that it isn't all the weight being located in one spot, it is distributed across the body. The myth that armor was extremely encumbering for someone that trained regularly in it is just that, a myth.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI
    i do very well know that you can move rather well in a well made plate armour, most of the weight is btw carried on the hips iirc

    i only said that a person wont be doing any back flips with it...
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member USARegistered Users Posts: 5,909

    Erminaz said:

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
    Your suggestions make no sense from a lore or realism perspective. Dodging is already represented by melee defense. And not even Elves can dodge arrows.
    to which i reply with this from the main post
    Squallsy said:

    sure a wood elf can dodge an arrow or two but an entire volley? they arent demigods, merely super humans, they cant dodge that!

    i am not suggesting that they dodge arrows, thats a little absurd imo!

    i also heavily question why if melee defence is representing a dodge chance that wood elves on average actually have lower melee defence then humans.....? considering humans wear heavy armour, and infinitely less skilled, i think thats a poor representation of dodge.... you know... since a human wearing a good 30-40 pound metal suit is considerably higher melee defence then a naked elite elf....
    Armor weighs like 2-5 pounds. You can do backflips and handstands in a suit of plate armor. Also melee defense isn't just dodging, it's a composite of factors.


    Edit: also the only Spear Elves that are Militia are HE spears. But military service is mandatory on Ulthuan, lasting centuries, so they are very well trained by human standards.
    a full set of medieval plate armour can easily weigh up to 110lbs, now if we are talking about what generic infantry units wear in warhammer? thats easily 40lbs+, you just lost all credibility....
    i think gothic plate (which was more or less one of the best suits you could get) was between 40 to 50 pounds (altough not including Gambeson etc. i think)

    but yes... you definitely wont be doing any backflips in plate armour nor full chainmail... atleast if you value your backs health... cause hte landings wont be too comfortable i guess
    You have to remember that it isn't all the weight being located in one spot, it is distributed across the body. The myth that armor was extremely encumbering for someone that trained regularly in it is just that, a myth.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI
    i do very well know that you can move rather well in a well made plate armour, most of the weight is btw carried on the hips iirc

    i only said that a person wont be doing any back flips with it...
    I should have quoted Squallsy not you, sorry.
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • MrMecHMrMecH Registered Users Posts: 2,415
    edited December 2016
    About Dragon I think the same way. They are not like elite creature of the world at all. At least they should use a tail to attack the rear. Dragon Ogre can do that, then why real Dragon can't do it.

    For archer, I think the now is still fine. Hotfix have fix them to the point that can match up with other range units. If they will be buffed to close the lore, they will cheat. However truely agree with arrow stuck with the tree problem. It is nonsense.

    I like you discussion. Could you do this with other race? Then we will see what we can ask CA to rebalance unit.
    SHUT UP GIVE US GHORGON!!!!!

  • KDubya#7899KDubya#7899 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 153
    Elves should break sooner than humans.

    The reason is their immortality. Men die and are prepared for that, Elves can live for ever so they will never be as prepared as humans to die.

    Scenario #1 human infantry - you know that as long as everyone holds you can all survive, or at least most of you. Dying for a cause is worthy endeavor, think "Braveheart" and how the troops got motivated to risk death.

    Scenario #2 Elven infantry - you know that if you fight and run away that you can live another 1000 years. You can come back in a hundred years and conquer this city, what's the rush?
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,414
    Actually, elves should break later than humans, because they have a problem conceptualizing the idea that a mere mortal will slay them in the first place, he can't possibly know how to use that thing at his age! Which sorta fits their lore, as these epic weapon experts who basically dance through battle, but in actuality hit at the same rates against most units. :)
  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176
    Erminaz said:

    Squallsy said:

    Erminaz said:

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
    Your suggestions make no sense from a lore or realism perspective. Dodging is already represented by melee defense. And not even Elves can dodge arrows.
    to which i reply with this from the main post
    Squallsy said:

    sure a wood elf can dodge an arrow or two but an entire volley? they arent demigods, merely super humans, they cant dodge that!

    i am not suggesting that they dodge arrows, thats a little absurd imo!

    i also heavily question why if melee defence is representing a dodge chance that wood elves on average actually have lower melee defence then humans.....? considering humans wear heavy armour, and infinitely less skilled, i think thats a poor representation of dodge.... you know... since a human wearing a good 30-40 pound metal suit is considerably higher melee defence then a naked elite elf....
    Armor weighs like 2-5 pounds. You can do backflips and handstands in a suit of plate armor. Also melee defense isn't just dodging, it's a composite of factors.


    Edit: also the only Spear Elves that are Militia are HE spears. But military service is mandatory on Ulthuan, lasting centuries, so they are very well trained by human standards.
    a full set of medieval plate armour can easily weigh up to 110lbs, now if we are talking about what generic infantry units wear in warhammer? thats easily 40lbs+, you just lost all credibility....
    i think gothic plate (which was more or less one of the best suits you could get) was between 40 to 50 pounds (altough not including Gambeson etc. i think)

    but yes... you definitely wont be doing any backflips in plate armour nor full chainmail... atleast if you value your backs health... cause hte landings wont be too comfortable i guess
    You have to remember that it isn't all the weight being located in one spot, it is distributed across the body. The myth that armor was extremely encumbering for someone that trained regularly in it is just that, a myth.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI
    sorry for the slow reply, i had to sleep, but in regards to the video you have linked, first off, the person has trouble and is barely wearing half of a full plate armour set, secondly, this is not a combat armour set, this is a tournament armour set, itd easily weight well over double what that one does, and if you think that this in no way makes one slower? then i severely question your judgement
    Notice I said extremely cumbersome, not that it wouldn't have an effect at all. Mobility does get limited to some extent but the myth that it made it so that you could barely move and being knocked on your back would prevent you from getting up is a myth. Armor does restrict some movement and such but it isn't a liability. Also it does matter how the weight is distributed, 70+ pounds all together in a box is a lot different than 70+ pounds across the entire body.
    now think about what you are trying to argue, you are trying to say that plate armour doesnt affect the ability to dodge or how well you can fight that much, but you have to keep in mind that when an elf fights a human? the human is already barely moving and looks like a clumsy oaf, the speed difference is real when they arent weighed down by cumbersome armour, its only going to get even worse when they put on more and elves put on less.... if it was a human vs human fight i would agree with you, but we are currently discussion elves
  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176
    edited December 2016
    MrMecH said:

    About Dragon I think the same way. They are not like elite creature of the world at all. At least they should use a tail to attack the rear. Dragon Ogre can do that, then why real Dragon can't do it.

    For archer, I think the now is still fine. Hotfix have fix them to the point that can match up with other range units. If they will be buffed to close the lore, they will cheat. However truely agree with arrow stuck with the tree problem. It is nonsense.

    I like you discussion. Could you do this with other race? Then we will see what we can ask CA to rebalance unit.

    i like the hotfix, i think its a good change in some ways but not in others, i feel like its buffing them in a non realistic way, but i certainly think its better then what it was and certainly more forgiving

    i am an elf fanboy admittedly, i can take a look at the other races though, there is some things i feel are off kilter with how i would expect them to function, (non dwarven artillery im staring at you.... you work.... to well....) do you have any preferences on which race?

    i actually have the intention of starting a discussion about magic to
  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176
    KDubya said:

    Elves should break sooner than humans.

    The reason is their immortality. Men die and are prepared for that, Elves can live for ever so they will never be as prepared as humans to die.

    Scenario #1 human infantry - you know that as long as everyone holds you can all survive, or at least most of you. Dying for a cause is worthy endeavor, think "Braveheart" and how the troops got motivated to risk death.

    Scenario #2 Elven infantry - you know that if you fight and run away that you can live another 1000 years. You can come back in a hundred years and conquer this city, what's the rush?

    psychoak said:

    Actually, elves should break later than humans, because they have a problem conceptualizing the idea that a mere mortal will slay them in the first place, he can't possibly know how to use that thing at his age! Which sorta fits their lore, as these epic weapon experts who basically dance through battle, but in actuality hit at the same rates against most units. :)

    i somewhat get both of these arguements, i am more inclined to agree with KDubya on this one though, yes, arrogance from a lord is one thing, but when the immortal with 70 years of training right next to you dies? arrogance cant just pretend away that happening, i think they should break faster when overwhelmed and be near unbreakable in larger groups,
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,957
    edited December 2016
    Squallsy said:

    KDubya said:

    Elves should break sooner than humans.

    The reason is their immortality. Men die and are prepared for that, Elves can live for ever so they will never be as prepared as humans to die.

    Scenario #1 human infantry - you know that as long as everyone holds you can all survive, or at least most of you. Dying for a cause is worthy endeavor, think "Braveheart" and how the troops got motivated to risk death.

    Scenario #2 Elven infantry - you know that if you fight and run away that you can live another 1000 years. You can come back in a hundred years and conquer this city, what's the rush?

    psychoak said:

    Actually, elves should break later than humans, because they have a problem conceptualizing the idea that a mere mortal will slay them in the first place, he can't possibly know how to use that thing at his age! Which sorta fits their lore, as these epic weapon experts who basically dance through battle, but in actuality hit at the same rates against most units. :)

    i somewhat get both of these arguements, i am more inclined to agree with KDubya on this one though, yes, arrogance from a lord is one thing, but when the immortal with 70 years of training right next to you dies? arrogance cant just pretend away that happening, i think they should break faster when overwhelmed and be near unbreakable in larger groups,
    I don't know. Fear of death appears to me as a thing for lesser races. Elves, with all their wisdom and arrogance should be more or less indifferent toward their own death. I don't think that lifespan is a factor here, but the way one treats life.
    Post edited by Maedrethnir on
  • UppslitarenUppslitaren Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 582
    Elves in warhammer fantasy are not immortal, they can die from old age.
    Also, if age was that important of a factor, don't dwarves live longer than humans as well?
    In general though, elves in warhammer table top have a higher leadership and therefore are less likely to run compared to humans. They are simply more brave than human, greenskins, skaven etc.
  • KDubya#7899KDubya#7899 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 153
    To me being mortal is what gives people strength. People know that they will not live very long, only legends live forever. By being fearless and winning mortals can achieve "immortality" by living on in legend.

    Mortals can also achieve a form of immortality by their progeny surviving and prospering. Sacrificing yourself in battle for the greater good is something that mortals can excel at.

    A race like Elves that can live forever isn't just risking five or ten years like a mortal is, but is instead risking forever. To me that would drastically alter how everything is viewed, especially dying in battle, especially in some nameless skirmish somewhere. Sure in the big battle for middle earth or something the case can be made that Elves would fight like gods but what about in the little senseless skirmish with Goblins which breed like rabbits? Withdrawing and coming back to fight with better odds makes a lot of sense, especially to someone with all the time in the world.
  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176

    Elves in warhammer fantasy are not immortal, they can die from old age.
    Also, if age was that important of a factor, don't dwarves live longer than humans as well?
    In general though, elves in warhammer table top have a higher leadership and therefore are less likely to run compared to humans. They are simply more brave than human, greenskins, skaven etc.

    Dwarves can live for around 400-500 years, they are referred to as living ancestors at this point

    there is high elves that are over 6000 years old at the current moment in time, but you find most tend to live for around 1000 years, i would say they wont go dying of old age, but they can if they want to...

    dark elves however have a a limited lifespan that is extended using blood magic

    wood elves, who goddarn knows, athel loren is essentially a tardis and warps time whilst being bigger on the inside... we have absolutely no idea how long wood elves live

    @CometLucifer
    i am nots 100% sure how to reply, so this may be somewhat random

    in regards to wood elves, they have higher leadership then men yes, but they arent like the regimented line militia of the high elves, they are somewhat more how do i say it.... capricious? this could lead them to break easier when we are talking about the untrained units like glade and eternal guard
  • UppslitarenUppslitaren Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 582
    edited December 2016
    To me being mortal is what gives people strength. People know that they will not live very long, only legends live forever. By being fearless and winning mortals can achieve "immortality" by living on in legend.

    Mortals can also achieve a form of immortality by their progeny surviving and prospering. Sacrificing yourself in battle for the greater good is something that mortals can excel at.

    A race like Elves that can live forever isn't just risking five or ten years like a mortal is, but is instead risking forever. To me that would drastically alter how everything is viewed, especially dying in battle, especially in some nameless skirmish somewhere. Sure in the big battle for middle earth or something the case can be made that Elves would fight like gods but what about in the little senseless skirmish with Goblins which breed like rabbits? Withdrawing and coming back to fight with better odds makes a lot of sense, especially to someone with all the time in the world.


    Your thinking is human. Elves are not :)
    Elves are used to being outnumbered, and know they are generally quicker and more skilled than their opponents.
    Wood Elves bind their souls into elemental creatures and trees, becoming a living part of the forest even during death.High Elves bind their souls in waystones. Thus, even after death their souls will empower the magical wards protecting Ulthuan. Many High Elves wear stone necklaces to capture their souls even if they die far from Ulthuan. Otherwise their souls would be claimed by Slaanesh.

    Humans at least tend to fight better when they are defending their homes, in this regard I can imagine the Elves are similar to humans. If the Wood Elves lose Athel Loren (or High Elves Ulthuan) there is nowhere to run back to, this in combination with being more naturally more brave than others gives them a higher leadership than others I think.
  • wingren013wingren013 Registered Users Posts: 1,082
    edited December 2016
    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
    Your suggestions make no sense from a lore or realism perspective. Dodging is already represented by melee defense. And not even Elves can dodge arrows.
    to which i reply with this from the main post
    Squallsy said:

    sure a wood elf can dodge an arrow or two but an entire volley? they arent demigods, merely super humans, they cant dodge that!

    i am not suggesting that they dodge arrows, thats a little absurd imo!

    i also heavily question why if melee defence is representing a dodge chance that wood elves on average actually have lower melee defence then humans.....? considering humans wear heavy armour, and infinitely less skilled, i think thats a poor representation of dodge.... you know... since a human wearing a good 30-40 pound metal suit is considerably higher melee defence then a naked elite elf....
    Armor weighs like 2-5 pounds. You can do backflips and handstands in a suit of plate armor. Also melee defense isn't just dodging, it's a composite of factors.


    Edit: also the only Spear Elves that are Militia are HE spears. But military service is mandatory on Ulthuan, lasting centuries, so they are very well trained by human standards.
    a full set of medieval plate armour can easily weigh up to 110lbs, now if we are talking about what generic infantry units wear in warhammer? thats easily 40lbs+, you just lost all credibility....

    No. Do you seriously believe that people were functional wearing 100+ pound suits of armor. Ceremonial and Jousting suits could certainly be pretty heavy but an actual combat appropriate suit would have been light.


    A proper full suit of Plate including the underarmor would be about 30-50 pounds or so. Not enough to impair mobility.

  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176
    edited December 2016

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    Squallsy said:

    How about no. Also Warhammer Elves aren't a dying race. Just in decline compared to their former glory.

    when compared to the heavily populace orks and humans? they are very much so

    but other then 'how about no' do you have the ability to explain what your problems with said suggestions are?
    Your suggestions make no sense from a lore or realism perspective. Dodging is already represented by melee defense. And not even Elves can dodge arrows.
    to which i reply with this from the main post
    Squallsy said:

    sure a wood elf can dodge an arrow or two but an entire volley? they arent demigods, merely super humans, they cant dodge that!

    i am not suggesting that they dodge arrows, thats a little absurd imo!

    i also heavily question why if melee defence is representing a dodge chance that wood elves on average actually have lower melee defence then humans.....? considering humans wear heavy armour, and infinitely less skilled, i think thats a poor representation of dodge.... you know... since a human wearing a good 30-40 pound metal suit is considerably higher melee defence then a naked elite elf....
    Armor weighs like 2-5 pounds. You can do backflips and handstands in a suit of plate armor. Also melee defense isn't just dodging, it's a composite of factors.


    Edit: also the only Spear Elves that are Militia are HE spears. But military service is mandatory on Ulthuan, lasting centuries, so they are very well trained by human standards.
    a full set of medieval plate armour can easily weigh up to 110lbs, now if we are talking about what generic infantry units wear in warhammer? thats easily 40lbs+, you just lost all credibility....

    No. Do you seriously believe that people were functional wearing 100+ pound suits of armor. Ceremonial and Jousting suits could certainly be pretty heavy but an actual combat appropriate suit would have been light.


    A proper full suit of Plate including the underarmor would be about 20-30 pounds or so. Not enough to impair mobility.

    now let us look at what impair mobility means? will it stop you from being able to do what youd normally do? it might do a ltitle bit but not much, the majour effect is on your stamina and your ability to move at the exact same speed as previously possible, which is even more apparent when dealing with elves who themselves, wear none, but were already much faster then you were

    but i think we have gotten far off topic for what we were originally talking about, i will explain it quickly

    a wood elf eternal guard has 40 armor and 36 melee defence in the multiplayer interface which counts a +10 to armour and a +2 to melee defence
    an empire swordsman has 30 armour and 40 melee defence
    which contains a +8 to melee defence
    i think this is inaccurate, i think eternal guard should have more like 10 armour, keeping the melee defence and gaining dodge as a random chance... remember we are talking about the lore not reality here
  • GRAY_HATGRAY_HAT Senior Member UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,394
    Squallsy said:


    a wood elf eternal guard has 40 armor and 36 melee defence in the multiplayer interface which counts a +10 to armour and a +2 to melee defence
    an empire swordsman has 30 armour and 40 melee defence
    which contains a +8 to melee defense
    i think this is inaccurate, i think eternal guard should have more like 10 armour, keeping the melee defense and gaining dodge as a random chance... remember we are talking about the lore not reality here

    Eternal guard are in lore the most armoured unit wood elves have, being minor nobles they can afford(not sure if this is currency or standing) to get mettle for strengthening the magically made leather armour(there is only one forge in AL).

    It should deflect as much damage as the chest plates worn by swordsmen and covers more of the body.

    Team Wood Elves

    boyfights loves wood elves.

    "Heaven forbid that under the Vail of military training we should subject our young men to the lust of our general" - Hanno to the Carthaginian senate on the future of Hannibal.

    "Guard mode is back in Warhammer :)" - Darren_CA

    "It's amazing how many mistakes your enemy will make in haste after seeing that he's outgunned" -The Organ King
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member USARegistered Users Posts: 5,909
    edited December 2016
    KDubya said:

    To me being mortal is what gives people strength. People know that they will not live very long, only legends live forever. By being fearless and winning mortals can achieve "immortality" by living on in legend.

    Mortals can also achieve a form of immortality by their progeny surviving and prospering. Sacrificing yourself in battle for the greater good is something that mortals can excel at.

    A race like Elves that can live forever isn't just risking five or ten years like a mortal is, but is instead risking forever. To me that would drastically alter how everything is viewed, especially dying in battle, especially in some nameless skirmish somewhere. Sure in the big battle for middle earth or something the case can be made that Elves would fight like gods but what about in the little senseless skirmish with Goblins which breed like rabbits? Withdrawing and coming back to fight with better odds makes a lot of sense, especially to someone with all the time in the world.

    Very few elves live forever, some are explained because of magic and gods. Malekith, Morathi, and Hellbron live on because of a magic cauldron. Alith Anar I assume lives on because of magic in the form of the vow to kill Malekith and destroy his tainted kin and prior to the stupidity called the End Times we didn't even know if Alith Anar was the same person or that the name passed down to his successors. Ariel is empowered by a goddess. Caradryel and Bel-Hathor died of old Age and given no comment is made of a violent end Bel-Korhadris most likely died from age as well.

    I think you are getting Tolkien (or the Peter Jackson adaptations) mixed up with Warhammer.

    As for the thought that lifespan would make them break what about years of discipline and training. A group of rioters with no training doesn't stand as long as a group of police officers let alone a group of well trained soldiers. While psychology has a part to play there are other factors and we have to remember that Elves do not think the same as humans. Just because you live for thousands of years doesn't mean you can't see a bigger picture. In a short view a minor skirmish could seem insignificant but later prove to have been a bit more important in an overall military campaign in the long view.

    All Elves are also prideful, that pride is often times what spurs them on to doing "great deeds". While some might view Guerilla tactics like the Wood Elves are more prone to use as cowardly they view it as the best course of action. A strategic withdrawal is not the same thing as a rout and what you are saying is that they would fear for their deaths to the point that they would rout and be cut down rather than deem the conflict insignificant and not worth fighting to the bitter end over and doing a fighting retreat.
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • Canuovea#6291Canuovea#6291 Registered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 15,927
    Armour may have an effect on your range of motion, particularly in the lifting of your arms above your head. But other than that I'm fairly certain that proper armour would be less restrictive than some assume here.

    That is, they wouldn't be all that different from a standard unarmoured human in a fight... just harder to kill. Elves may notice some difference, or they might not, since humans are pretty much equally unimpressive to them.
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  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,414
    A note on the weight of armor. Full plate was indeed a lot lighter than 100+ pounds for infantry, jousting armor wasn't even functional for combat when mounted. You could barely move in the stuff because it was specifically designed for an idiotic activity. Intentionally impaling each other with lances at a full gallop. Swinging a sword in that stuff would have been serious work, stamina is a major concern for your elite troops. Balancing their safety against their ability to actually accomplish something necessarily made even knights require light, highly mobile armor.

    Furthermore, these are Wood Elves we're discussing. They're not wearing plate. They're wearing magical ****. I **** you not. Light armor and ward saves from **** like tattoos are all you'll find in the army book.
  • SquallsySquallsy Registered Users Posts: 176
    psychoak said:

    A note on the weight of armor. Full plate was indeed a lot lighter than 100+ pounds for infantry, jousting armor wasn't even functional for combat when mounted. You could barely move in the stuff because it was specifically designed for an idiotic activity. Intentionally impaling each other with lances at a full gallop. Swinging a sword in that stuff would have been serious work, stamina is a major concern for your elite troops. Balancing their safety against their ability to actually accomplish something necessarily made even knights require light, highly mobile armor.

    Furthermore, these are Wood Elves we're discussing. They're not wearing plate. They're wearing magical ****. I **** you not. Light armor and ward saves from **** like tattoos are all you'll find in the army book.

    we are discussing the empire units who are fighting the wood elves and weather or not the armour weight effects the speed at which they move enough so that it makes a wood elf easily able to dodge!

    and my statement that a full set of plate can easily be 100+ lbs, but the armour worn by the empire will generally be much closer to 40, its been blown heavily out of context as it was a reply to him claiming a full set of plate armour weighs 3-5lbs....
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