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Warriors of Chaos Overhaul

ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
edited September 2017 in Feedback & Suggestions
Introduction
This post and thread is dedicated to giving suggestions and ideas for making the WoC campaign very fun and challenging to play. But mostly fun. They are currently a basic horde faction becoming less and less interesting as the game pushes forward with improvements, DLC, and the trilogy installments. This is the culmination of discussion from my old Warriors of Chaos Overhaul thread with new and improved ideas for the campaign. The devs are very welcome to comment on their thoughts and opinions of this post. Don't worry, your opinion will be regarding as an individual one and not the entirety of CA. I want your input and honest thoughts because they put things into perspective because this is your game. Anything from the difficulty to do it, if you like something, or even if you don't please say it. Could even say you are going to pitch this to the team to implement it :sweat_smile: . I know this is a hefty load of work probably. And the elephant in the room is whether the devs want to do this for free, because of the no dlc for dlc policy. No matter how much we want to pay you for doing this for chaos we can't. Not to mention all of the individuals on the team being in agreement is probably rare. But I hope that you consider committing some dev time on the WoC during Game 3 development at least. :blush:

Warriors of Chaos Campaign

*Spreading Corruption*(More ways to do it=fun)
--Give chaos heroes the ability to manipulate another agent to join their cause.

--Give chaos heroes the ability to manipulate lords and control their army temporarily depending on the skill and level. Limit it to 2 turns (3max) and exempt the AI from having that ability. (An extra layer to this could be enabling of chaos manipulation through a trait that was given by staying in chaos corrupted land for certain time. So you wouldn't be able(or less likely) to manipulate lords and heroes to your cause. The longer you stay in corrupt land the more likely you'll get the trait, and the more susceptible that character is to the whispers of chaos. )

--Give chaos heroes the ability to infiltrate a settlement for X amount of turns. After X amount of turns there will be a new building( maybe a corrupted variation) that replaces a current building in that settlement. This new building will be one that sucks money out of the faction and cause chaos corruption. -1200 gold and +5 corruption. These buildings can cost a chunk of money to get rid of to really affect treasuries and possibly cripple the economy for a while. And your agent might get wounded and fail the mission in the process depending on level and skill.


*Unique Horde Gameplay*
-- Chaos Rifts give +3 corruption to local region and +2 corruption to adjacent regions.

***On 70% corruption and higher, give a post battle option to erect a Chaos Citadel in capital regions only. Limit these Citadels to 3. These citadels provide excellent replenishment in local region, corruption all around that region, small recruitment cost reductions factionwide, and most importantly....keeping your campaign alive(just like the lore aka Brass keep) . If all your horde armies die without a citadel game over. But if you have a chaos citadel then you will have refuge in it, and you won't have to start over. I suggest that these citadels have garrisons, and maybe even upgradable garrisons. But I do want these citadels to be possibly sieged by the AI or the player. It could be a player exclusive thing though, it's up to you. But who doesn't want to siege a chaos citadel? :naughty:

--More engaging ruinous powers element to the campaign. It's called the Eye of the gods. Very similar to Bretonnia chivalry. But it involves more quests too. "The WoC have to do certain deeds to keep the gods entertained or risk losing divine support. " The affects of the range of high to low dark god support can have rewards and punishments.
Examples
Punishment
-Another chaos stack appears to fight you
-an agent betrays you
-you lose an entire stack because the general turn into a chaos spawn LOL
- infighting attrition

Rewards
-No infighting attrition
-Upkeep of monsters reduced greatly
-Able to recruit Daemon Princes and daemons
-Recruitment costs reduced
-the ability to mark your troops and turn them into nurgle warriors, slaanesh warriors, or khorne berserkers, or tzeench warroirs

--More pop up events that make you think and choose according to campaign situation. Could be more intriguing lore pop ups











*Difficulty* (mainly for a fun steam rolling check)
-- Random hordes whether beastmen or chaos challenge your power. A horde spawns bent on killing you. This could either happen after you build your first citadel, or randomly. I wouldn't make these armies too powerful though because the End game battle should have the best and toughest units. This could have a 10% chance of happening each turn when you build the citadel. Maybe each citadel increases the chances by 10%. Meaning by the limit I set, which is 3 citadels, that's a 30% chance of being challenged by a start up or traitor horde.

--If your chaos lord loses 2 or 3 battles or retreats from them he will turn into a chaos spawn and the army will be halved by attrition in one turn and you'll have to replace that general. Or your army will continue to take attrition until you replace that general. (Only for regular chaos lords)

***3 more Boss battles with interruption scenes just like the current one. Khorne, Slaanesh, and Nurgle challenge the player.

*Tech Tree*
-- Have the skill boxes that you pay for increase 2 skill points to recruited generals. The main line of tech can offer skill level to the recuited lords , so your late-game lords will be able to jump into the fight much faster.

*Diplomacy*
-- Cooperation with the Dark Elves, Skaven, Ogres, Norsca, or any other neutral or chaos faction.(chaos players might want to team up with them or vassalize them)

--Bonuses to vassalation wages


*Random cool stuff I had quick thoughts about* & *Adjustments and fixes* (yes I said fixes :innocent: ok more like annoyances )

---Revoice Archaon. He sounds too crazed robot orcy to me, or a wrestling promo. Archaon should sound like a menacing Dark lord. Hint: Use Narrator from the Chaos trailer or someone who sounds more menacing.

-Victory conditions and/or quest battle cinematic and Archaon recruitment video.

---Chaos Marauders/chaos Warriors variation!--> https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/189807/norsca-needs-more-model-variation

--I would like a chaos lord wielding a huge battleaxe. Everyone of them has a sword

--Just like a monster, have Archaon do special kill animations

Attempt at a technical explanation-->
Starting with the new Corruption ideas. Manipulating other agents to join your cause is the most basic one, something that could be easily implemented. It's from other total war games as well, and fitting for a unique chaos agent ability. So there's not much to say there preaching to the choir.
Next, and way more complicated, is the the suggestion of using your chaos agent to take control or manipulate the opposing lord. Resulting in you commanding his army. This would be done the same way you do other agent actions. This was in shogun2 I believe where you could have a chunk of an army double cross to your side. But this can be done more simply, by either having that lord die and replaced with a chaos lord, replaced by that agent, or have that lord be under your command. Essentially either embedding your agent as general, or converting the army to your control. I know an army cannot be without a general. Of course these would need a new event thing saying "This Hero/Lord succumbs to the power of Chaos".
Lastly, the ability to have an agent infiltrate a settlement. Very new to the franchise. New ability simply called Infiltrate. Done the same way you would assault the garrison of a settlement. I'm thinking two things here, either this action be done by click fail or succeed like normally, or this be a case where the infiltrate action has a wait time of X amount of turns, disabling the use of that agent until X turns are done. The success or fail is at the mercy of the normal conditions of agent actions like skill and level which I'll get into briefly. This feature would be very much like the run spy network, but against an enemy settlement that results in your agents death, wounded state, or a vandalization building that replaces one of the buildings in the settlement spreading corruption, bad public order, and having a huge building cost like -1200 or something. This in my head simulates the hero establishing cults.
All these new corruption options can be tied to one skill node. Every chaos agent, or just sorcerers, can have a new skill node named Manipulation with 3 upgrades. Possibly unlocked at level 5.

Now to the Citadel idea. Ok this will definitely require new conditions. The idea of the chaos citadel is that you can only build it on a certain amount of corruption in the region. So the condition or coding would be to add that option on a percentage of corruption of your choosing as a post siege option. Or a settlement occupation option. Another condition is that they are exclusive to main settlement regions, or the capital settlement.
I don't know if this would be a new condition, but it's more a limit, which is Citadels are limited to three. Limited to 3 because of their purpose which I'm going to get into. These citadels are not technically Altdorf or Black Crag, these citadels are Oak of ages. One building chain with maybe 2 or 3 upgrades. You can add whatever traits to these buildings you like, but the main point is to save your campaign. Every chaos player knows that loseing your armies is the end of the game unlike non horde factions. Well these citadels would have a campaign saving trait. Only can you build three, anywhere you want. The accompanying traits I would suggests are to blast the area with corruption, helping with replenishment much like Norsca. As you might know, corruption goes down over time, but these wicked citadels will fix that right up :naughty: in the areas you choose to erect a citadel. To note, these citadels being destroyed should not kill the campaign, but it allows for you to lose the campaign once your armies are lost again, just like normal.
TExc_script_conditions
abilities
action_results
action_results_addition_outcomes
agent_actions
agent_actions_subculture_overrides
(basically all the agent stuff)
cai_personalities
campaign_features
campaign_localized_strings
campaign_variables
character_skill_nodes
food_factors
campaign_map_settlements
settlement_occupation_options
settlement_vadalisation_buildings
culture_settlement_occupation_options
campaign_selltment_display_buildings

Please? :innocent:
Lol thanks for reading. What do you think?
Old overhaul post-->
With the trilogy in the works and under CA's to do list I want to request that CA do an overhaul of the Warriors of Chaos. They are currently a basic horde faction becoming less and less interesting as the game pushes forward with improvements and DLC and potential expansions. The overarching enemy of almost all races, and the main antagonist of Warhammer fantasy should not be over shadowed by future content.

How I want the Warriors of Chaos to be overhauled:
The Nation Building Feel
-All of this in this spoiler is now a little irrelevant. But it is the original thoughts and feeling behind what we are looking for.--> They cannot inhabit settlements, they instead roam the map as hordes. Well I would like this to stay the same except for the settlement part. I think chaos should be able to take over settlements and build dread cities or skull keeps. But the catch is that these fortresses can only be built in regions where chaos corruption is at a high percentage (75 and higher). Garrisoned by the WoC roster, but the fluff could say it's built by cultist , daemons and slaves, hints the high corruption needed to build them. They could have a main important citadel far in the wastes, but these minor structures could be built for "replenishment stops, recruitment stations (with access to the global recruitment pool but at local recruitment pricing), or as centers to exploit any regional trade resources." Yes, that's right, trade. Chaos uses resources like everybody else, so they should be able to trade(Look, if you found a way for the Vampires to produce wine, wood and furs so should the Warriors) . Now who they would trade with will most likely be Orges, Dark Elves, Skaven, and any other neutral or chaos influenced faction (Orges are said to trade with chaos because they don't make their own weapons). Make them a horde as much as the green skins are a "horde". But the end goal of chaos would be to dominant everything. So when chaos is done corrupting and conquering wherever, they would most likely have to turn their gaze to untouched lands, or perhaps even their own trade partners for more pillaging and conquering.
(With the continued discussion below, a few changes were made, and I highlight the key points of the discussion to overhaul chaos)
Here's the basic consensus https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/189449/main-points-of-woc-overhaul
-Chaos citadels can only be built in provinces of high corruption (75 or higher). This would emphasize the corrupting warping nature of chaos. It would destabilize the enemy province, and highlight the dynamic changes CA implemented with the chaos corruption on the map. In addition to that reasoning, these fortresses are ideally not built by the warriors, but by cultists, slaves, and daemons, hints why the high corruption is needed. Also the reason why the high corruption makes sense is because the armies of chaos need to be raiding, sacking, and pillaging instead of erecting cites or fortresses all over the place like a normal human race would. So there needs to be a corruption check before we get the options to sack, raze, or take over.

-The chaos citadels are exclusive to province capitals. The minor settlements are left to being razed or sacked. Razing the minor settlement would boost the corruption rate of the provincial capital . Sacking would of course bring in loads of money or dark favor.

-The buildings themselves would be only military and technology beneficial. Unlock new units, buildings and technologies, that boost unit strength, replenishment, growth, decrease upkeep etc. These places would not provide any income because the income is reliant on sacking and raiding.

-The WoC can start with a place already, or they can start the same way they start now, with nothing but a small army. But the latter would be so hard and interesting to work with as the player, but the AI would mess it up, so I would make them start with a dreadhold in the northern waste.

-Diplomacy. Well there is none except for cooperation with the Dark Elves, Skaven, Ogres, Norsca, or any other neutral or chaos faction. But remember, with this idea, they can't sit around and have partnerships, they continue to corrupt and fight until everything is broken and destroyed, and the only thing that's left is a world reaping with chaos corruption with dark fortresses towering over the land.

Here are some structures to supplement my idea. These images are to show what CA can do with this idea.







Let their economy still be heavily reliant on sacking, raiding and battle loot but give then that sweeping and creeping world domination feel that they deserve!

Small Details
- Make the encampment stance a raiding encampment stance. Replenishment and raiding at the same time.

-Archaon should get a trait that makes him immune to infighting attrition because he's the dark god's chosen champion, and the majority of chaos followers revere him. Chaos lords can earn it through leveling up and winning battles. Maybe it can be a trait that is rewarded through cooperative actions.

-Revoice Archaon. He sounds too crazed robot orcy to me, or a wrestling promo. Archaon should sound like a menacing Dark lord. Hint: Use Narrator from the Chaos trailer please (The voice acting is good in this game, but I don't know how the Archaon voice guy got away with such silliness) I know this cost money though.

-Give chaos heroes the ability to manipulate another agent to join their cause

-Give chaos heroes the ability to manipulate lords and control their army temporarily depending on the skill and level. (This could be very overpowered, and frustrating against the AI though)The balance could be a high level hero or a new manipulation skill tree. Limit it to 2 turns (3max) and exempt the AI from having that ability.

-Chaos Marauders/Warriors variation!--> https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/189807/norsca-needs-more-model-variation

-Give chaos the option of giving "money' to any faction in exchange for +3 to +10 corruption depending on the amount of money given. 500= +2 corruption 1200= +4 corruption

-Give chaos heroes the ability to infiltrate a settlement for X amount of turns. After X amount of turns there will be a new building that replaces a current building in that settlement. This new building will be one that sucks money out of the faction and cause chaos corruption. -1200 gold and +5 corruption. These buildings can cost a chunk of money to get rid of. And your agent might get wounded and fail the mission in the process depending on level and skill.

-The Eye of the Gods mechanic
The WoC have to do certain deeds to keep the gods entertained or risk losing divine support. (Discussion and Specifics on page 5) :wink:

-Chaos ascendancy. From chieftain to chaos lord, all the way to daemon prince. Maybe make an evolution of chaos generals in the campaign.

-Chaos Objective and quests cinamatics(Details on bottom of page 6)


I hope you find this stuff convincing to do.
OK everyone, please post your thoughts and ideas about chaos here. If you have ideas please share them and explain. Invite others to post here to air out their WoC issues if they want the Devs to have a look. Thanks for reading.

Post edited by ChaosDragonBorn on
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Comments

  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    You will probably notice that under the "The Nation Building Feel" part I describe the mechanics in a very similar way the wood elves are done. But there are a couple underlining points that really distinguishes my request from the way the wood elves play. If you couldn't tell I'll point them out later in the weekend.
  • ChipawapaChipawapa Posts: 149Registered Users
    edited December 2016
    Its not just Archaon that sounds like he has an extra chromosome gifted by tzeench tho, Mannfred also sounds very similar. And if they redo his voice they might wanna start with his stats and what he can do in battle to better represent his status as lord of end times and his tabletop self.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    I like all the suggestions here except one. Archaon not being affected by infighting? Screw that! Remove ALL infighting! Remove that cancerous addition from the disappointment that already is WoC. They don't deserve more anguish.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    I like the suggestions here too. Sounds way more reasonable than WoC we have now. And more challenging and fun. Also CA needs to get rid of the attrition. The daemons are way more fitting to have infighting because they actually do fight eachother on a regular basis just on principle.

    Also bring on the Bloodthirter and Slaughterbrute already!!
  • HorseWithNoNameHorseWithNoName Posts: 1,001Registered Users
    edited December 2016
    I agree that WoC should not be a pure horde faction. I would really like if their focus would be more on their relationship with the Chaos Gods. You would start out as a Norscan tribe and as you gain the favor of the Chaos Gods/a certain Chaos God (by winning battles, conquering settlements of followers of the "wrong" Chaos God, etc.), you would unlock your more chaotic units/characters. Depending on which Chaos God you follow, you would unlock different units and LLs. Your cities could also be visually adjusted (maybe to look like in the pictures you posted). Then with the Archaon-event you would try to conquer the world (you would of course control all those armies).

    From your other suggestions, I like the (retained) reliance on sacking and the added ability to be able to trade.

    What I don't like is having those "dread cities or skull keeps" as mere outposts in the same vein as WE outposts. I think the outposts mechanic is not a good mechanic as a whole. For other factions, these outposts are a small step above ruins and cannot fulfill the same role as opposing cities which (should) provide the feeling like you have done something meaningful when conquered (they provide a short term target, a goal to get to - by conquering them).
    Having functioning (big) cities on the map is imo important for the game. These dread cities/skull keeps should function like normal cities (so you have to invest time to build them up, as only what costed time to build up is fun to destroy). Maybe make them more expensive to build up and with stronger defenses, like a boss castle from an RPG.
    Post edited by HorseWithNoName on
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users



    What I don't like is having those "dread cities or skull keeps" as mere outposts in the same vein as WE outposts. I think the outposts mechanic is not a good mechanic as a whole. For other factions, these outposts are a small step above ruins and cannot fulfill the same role as opposing cities which (should) provide the feeling like you have done something meaningful when conquered (they provide a short term target, a goal to get to - by conquering them).
    Having functioning (big) cities on the map is imo important for the game. These dread cities/skull keeps should function like normal cities (so you have to invest time to build them up, as only what costed time to build up is fun to destroy). Maybe make them more expensive to build up and with stronger defenses, like a boss castle from an RPG.

    I don't want them to be mere outposts either. They would have to live up to the name. Outpost would be very contrary to Dread cities or skull keeps.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    edited December 2016
    @HorseWithNoName
    Good point and good thinking. I would rather these places not produce any extra income or trading benefits though, with the exception to trading itself. Their economy should be reliant on sacking and raiding and battle loot. I'm thinking these dread cities could be places for everything except income. So good point on functioning big cities. My idea was kind of aiming for that, hints images of the walls, but I think you are right. Would be more fun building cities.

    The idea of these wicked cities is that they are built and run by cultists, slaves, and daemons. To gradually turn the world into a chaos realm for the gods. And outposts would be hilariously out of place for this idea. Also outpost are not siegeable, so what fun would that be?

    The building chains would be things like
    Upkeep reduction
    Spread chaos corruption to neighboring provinces
    Unit recruitment
    god specific units
    Resource production with a very low boost in income
    Ports
    (Basically everything a normal city can build, but it would have that evil chaos flavor to it. Similar to the way the Orcs have their buildings and flavor)

    And these cities would be erected for the glory of the gods and Archaon, so that would perfectly explain the "tax"/Favor coming from the "settlements".


    Post edited by ChaosDragonBorn on
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    I'm actually thinking trade would be a necessary agreement only to be in good relations with that certain faction until WoC eventually have to kill them. Like a stalling deception. Or their diplomatic status can remain the same, and they stay without the ability to trade. What would you prefer and why?
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    They shouldn't be all over the place though. Province capitals only
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,302Registered Users
    Archaon would be the last person to create any sort of permanent settlement since he wants to destroy everything, including the planet.

    Totally unfitting for the current WoC.

    Maybe for another Chaos faction.

  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    I think it would be fitting so long as those fortresses are military only just to pump out armies to invade. Even men in Archaons armies die.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users

    Archaon would be the last person to create any sort of permanent settlement since he wants to destroy everything, including the planet.

    Totally unfitting for the current WoC.

    Maybe for another Chaos faction.

    Grimgor wants to destroy everything, Archaon wants to turn everything into the realm of chaos.
    Both are in the ball park of destruction, but there is a difference in how the world is destroyed.

    The warriors will still rely on sacking, raiding and battle loot with this. But now they will have that epic world domination thing going on.

    Playing as other factions against such a force will be fun I think too.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users

    I think it would be fitting so long as those fortresses are military only just to pump out armies to invade. Even men in Archaons armies die.

    Imagine seeing the province next to you gradually turn to a chaos waste and then you see that evil tower built. And suddenly it spawns some chaos armies...... :astonished: That's intimidating. And that's a true chaos invasion.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    edited December 2016

    I'm actually thinking trade would be a necessary agreement only to be in good relations with that certain faction until WoC eventually have to kill them. Like a stalling deception. Or their diplomatic status can remain the same, and they stay without the ability to trade. What would you prefer and why?

    Well chaos is nothing but a force of evil and destruction so those fortresses should purely be military beneficial. Lowering upkeep, recruitment, +10 melee attack/defense and all that stuff. In addition, spreading corruption and building shrines for god specific units like you said. Even Daemons. Now If they could trade or not would not be a big deal for me.

    They shouldn't be all over the place though. Province capitals only

    I actually think that would be cool. The capitals being the main target for possible chaos towers. And minor settlements being left to be raided, sacked or razed.
  • HorseWithNoNameHorseWithNoName Posts: 1,001Registered Users
    I like the capital only restriction to these chaos castles. It would underline that these are not settlements for people to live in but rather (expensive, overblown) monuments of power that also function as military bases (like the Death Star for the Star Wars Empire).
    I don't know about lore conformity though.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users

    I like the capital only restriction to these chaos castles. It would underline that these are not settlements for people to live in but rather (expensive, overblown) monuments of power that also function as military bases (like the Death Star for the Star Wars Empire).
    I don't know about lore conformity though.

    Well Archaon retreated to a "Brass Keep" in which he took from the Empire. Khorne has a 'Brass Citadel", so it's lore friendly.

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,302Registered Users

    Archaon would be the last person to create any sort of permanent settlement since he wants to destroy everything, including the planet.

    Totally unfitting for the current WoC.

    Maybe for another Chaos faction.

    Grimgor wants to destroy everything, Archaon wants to turn everything into the realm of chaos.
    Both are in the ball park of destruction, but there is a difference in how the world is destroyed.

    The warriors will still rely on sacking, raiding and battle loot with this. But now they will have that epic world domination thing going on.

    Playing as other factions against such a force will be fun I think too.
    WRONG!

    Grimgor wants to be "da best" and like all Orks wants a decent brawl.

    Which doesn't work if you destroy everything.

    Nope, settlements for WoC under Archaon are unfitting to the extreme.

  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    edited December 2016
    More Pics! and Lore!

    A grim monument to the conquering forces of Chaos, the Skull Keep’s ostentatious skull-adorned walls and brass-bound crenellations tower over the battlefield. Its ramparts allow defenders to rain gory death down upon anyone foolish enough to even come close. Anyone with the power - and bravery - to risk it can call upon the favour of the gods to unleash torrents of violent, blazing death-beams and tides of blood from this sinister, monolithic example of Chaos made stone.
    Grim, foreboding reminders of the absolute dominion enjoyed by the Chaos Gods, the Overlord Bastions tower over the landscape like malignant growths pushed forth from the corrupted earth itself. The soldiers that adorn their ramparts are all but immune to assault,
    shielded by high walls and heavy stone. Each of these strongholds is imbued with a terrifyingly dark power that the strongest wizards might call upon to rain storms of blood and blades onto their cowering foes.

    The Inevitable City is the grand capital of the Raven Host( followers of the Chaos god Tzeentch) , as well as the Capital city for the entire Destruction faction. A strange city of jagged architecture, uncanny lights and where reality itself bends to the will of Chaos, The Inevitable City contains many facilities for players to utilise, as well as three great landmarks.

    The Brass Citadel is a structure within the Realm of Chaos, towering over the ageless desolation of Khorne's realm. The walls of this unholy bastion are jagged, thick with crusted blood and hung with gibbets and gallows. The moat of the brass citadel is filled not with water, but with the boiling blood of Khorne's victims.

    Brass Keep: An imperial fortress located deep within the mountains which recently fell into the hands of Chaos warriors
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    Do I smell... Quest battle!!!
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,302Registered Users
    @KGoopy

    Minor question, noticed where these structures actually are located?

    Hint, not where you are active during the WoC campaign, so who gives?

    As I said, other Chaos factions might get settlements, but not Archaon's.


  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    Named places like "The Inevitable City" and "Brass Citadel" are exclusive to the chaos waste.
    The dreadholds and skull keeps are places built in chaos corrupted areas. It makes since to me to only be able to build these in 75% corruption or higher as I said. They are not settlements. They are places erected for the glory of the gods and military boost and benefits and recruitment. Their is no settling down with this plan.

    It's all about making chaos more tough and fun to play against and play as. I've seen so many posts and threads about how chaos is missing something, unsatisfying, boring, or they need to conquer since July . By the end of this trilogy, Archaon's horde in my opinion should be overhauled. Are you satistfied with the current WoC? In what ways would it be better for you? @Ephraim_Dalton

    I like the capital only restriction to these chaos castles. It would underline that these are not settlements for people to live in but rather (expensive, overblown) monuments of power that also function as military bases (like the Death Star for the Star Wars Empire).

    They shouldn't be all over the place though. Province capitals only

    KGpoopy said:


    I actually think that would be cool. The capitals being the main target for possible chaos towers. And minor settlements being left to be raided, sacked or razed.

    I'm sold.
  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users

    Do I smell... Quest battle!!!

    I don't know of any characters that go up there to get any weapons or armor. So if CA wants to do something with The Inevitable City and the Brass Citadel it could be a quest for all races. Or maybe for a playable Norsca race or even Archaon to gain extra powers or something.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 9,797Registered Users
    KGpoopy said:

    Do I smell... Quest battle!!!

    I don't know of any characters that go up there to get any weapons or armor. So if CA wants to do something with The Inevitable City and the Brass Citadel it could be a quest for all races. Or maybe for a playable Norsca race or even Archaon to gain extra powers or something.
    or maybe, if chaos gets expanded, we will get one "final battle" for each Chaos Lord more or less... so to finaly, totaly and utterly defeat Chaos you'd have to complete quest battles for each of the Chaos Gods
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    I think CA really needs to expand the quest system to include things that aren't necessarily just for lords to get their items. Could be for exp or a free unit or to get rid of a condition placed on a province until you do the battle. I mean the possibilities are endless. It's a whole system they could expand on.
  • MerciiMercii Junior Member Posts: 896Registered Users
    I think the capital only restriction might be good. I'd say no to trade or any kind of income benefit to keep the essential "destroying, not settling" vibe. They are just temporary fortifications to aid the invasions.

    I'd see them as pretty much like WElf outposts except they have defences and better garrions.

    The purpose would be for recruitment/replenishment or just helping 'secure' the region.

    If the region has a resource that should allow a special building, but it would give appropriate recruitment or buff bonuses rather than money (iron gives cheaper recruitment for armoured infantry for example, temple of Ulric allows 'defiled temple' that gives sorcerer or Chaos Spawn buffs etc)

    If people really have a problem with Archaon building forts you could make it for sigvald and Kolek only, if you Archaon start could have a special."Destroyer" faction trait, can't build Outposts but gets additonal Horde buffs.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 16,198Registered Users
    Much easier to just flesh out Norsca and make them playable.

    Then you get best of all three worlds; Beastmen and WoC are horde factions, whereas Norsca is where you play at a more conventional manner.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • MerciiMercii Junior Member Posts: 896Registered Users
    edited December 2016
    The thing is, I really like the warriors of chaos specifically, their faction and units are great.

    I am often thinking of playing them but the straight horde gameplay always has me getting bored before completing the campaign or even maxing out my lords.

    I THINK having some sort of connection to territory even if its just a handful of key outposts would make their campaign a lot more fun for me.

    I can see that keeping the factions distinct and unique is a desirable thing, I think all hordes should be able to settle at least partially.

    I know not everyone agrees but personally I think pure horde factions are just less fun instrinsically than if they had the option to settle and people who like hotde gameplay could always choose not to ever settle.

    I dunno maybe I just have to accept warriors of Chaos is not a faction for me, no matter how cool their units are.

  • KGpoopyKGpoopy Posts: 2,009Registered Users
    edited December 2016
    daelin4 said:

    Much easier to just flesh out Norsca and make them playable.

    Then you get best of all three worlds; Beastmen and WoC are horde factions, whereas Norsca is where you play at a more conventional manner.

    I don't see it as the best of three worlds though. Currently the beastmen and warriors of chaos are the same except for infighting and the brayherd mechanic(waagh). Chaos got the short end of the "fun" aspect of diversity of the races in the game. I like this idea because chaos would be this corrupting destructive force that would have a challenging and fun presence in the game and it would be fun and unique to WoC. I think the OP is right about the nation building thing because it's lore friendly and fun for people who like to secure areas and build various foundations for the conquest. Currently them being a plain old horde is not cutting it for chaos fans.

    Oh I certainly was hoping for a fleshed out Norsca as well. War mammoths, ice drakes, Wulfrik the Wanderer....
    Post edited by KGpoopy on
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    Mercii said:

    I think the capital only restriction might be good. I'd say no to trade or any kind of income benefit to keep the essential "destroying, not settling" vibe. They are just temporary fortifications to aid the invasions.

    I'd see them as pretty much like WElf outposts except they have defences and better garrions.

    The purpose would be for recruitment/replenishment or just helping 'secure' the region.

    If the region has a resource that should allow a special building, but it would give appropriate recruitment or buff bonuses rather than money (iron gives cheaper recruitment for armoured infantry for example, temple of Ulric allows 'defiled temple' that gives sorcerer or Chaos Spawn buffs etc)

    If people really have a problem with Archaon building forts you could make it for sigvald and Kolek only, if you Archaon start could have a special."Destroyer" faction trait, can't build Outposts but gets additonal Horde buffs.

    We could expand on this a little more and make it a requirement for the fortress to be destroyed before any of the cities in that province can be retaken by other factions. On the flip side the entire province would need to be razed before a fortress could go up. A little I've and take. It would make holding onto that last minor city in a province that much more important to keep a chaos fortress from popping up.
  • ChaosDragonBornChaosDragonBorn Posts: 1,487Registered Users
    Here's the underlining points that would distinguish WoC from the wood elves and the beastmen without changing the nature of chaos itself.

    -Chaos structures can only be built in provinces of high corruption (75 or higher). This would emphasize the corrupting warping nature of chaos. It would destabilize the enemy province, and highlight the dynamic changes CA implemented with the chaos corruption on the map. In addition to that reasoning, these fortresses are ideally not built by the warriors, but by cultists, slaves, and daemons, hints why the high corruption is needed. Also the reason why the high corruption makes sense is because the armies of chaos need to be raiding, sacking, and pillaging instead of erecting cites or fortresses all over the place like a normal human race would. So there needs to be a corruption check before we get the options to sack, raze, or take over.

    -The chaos structures are exclusive to province capitals. The minor settlements are left to being razed or sacked. Razing the minor settlement would boost the corruption rate of the provincial capital . Sacking would of course bring in loads of money or dark favor.

    -The buildings themselves would be only military and technology beneficial. Unlock new units, buildings and technologies, that boost unit strength, replenishment, growth, etc. These places would not provide any income because the income is reliant on sacking and raiding.

    -The WoC can start with a place already, or they can start the same way they start now, with nothing but a small army. But the latter would be so hard and interesting to work with as the player, but the AI would mess it up, so I would make them start with a dreadhold in the northern waste.

    -Diplomacy. Well there is none except for cooperation with the Dark Elves, Skaven, Ogres, Norsca, or any other neutral or chaos faction. But remember, with this idea, they can't sit around and have partnerships, they continue to corrupt and fight until everything is broken and destroyed, and the only thing that's left is a world reaping with chaos corruption with dark fortresses towering over the land.

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