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General Wood Elves Buff/Nerf Discussion

nordoM#6636nordoM#6636 Registered Users Posts: 103
Hi there,

even though there is a lot of grumbling about WE being OP one day and UP another, I didn't see a singular thread emerge where the up- and downsides of the current WE roster were being discussed. So I felt the need to register here and make one of my own.

So, to the point. I'd like this to be a thread where not only the most OP unit is being singled out but where all units can be put up for consideration for a nerf, buff or change be it big or small in the next patch.

Since the Grand Campaign can easily become imbalanced picking the right skill tree and unit combo for any race I'd rather we only talk about the units in light of their base stats and/or in relation to MP.

The following are ofc only my opinions and impressions, without hard numbers.

Dryads:
- Pretty lackluster. Easy to kill and don't do much damage despite being titled as "damage dealers", mostly because their AP damage is quite bad. Eternal Guard seem to be a better choice, if you're not hell bent on using a "all trees" army. Change: Slight increase to offensive stats.

Tree Kin:
- Very good. Maybe too good. Seems like these guys are a must have for most armies since they're nigh indestructible if not targeted by high tier AP Units or fire. If some buffs are given to the rest of the WE this might tip things over to the OP side. Some nerfs might be in order.
Change: Slight HP nerf, cost increase.

Deepwood Scouts (all):
- Way too situational and sub par in most common battle situations. Lower range than other archer units and very little ammo, all at a higher price. Stalk, good damage and fire on the move doesn't make up for this, since their low range and bad melee stats makes them easy pickings for cav, skirmishers and flyers. Their high cost makes ranged vs ranged also a bad trade and all too often they run out of ammo quickly even if they stay alive. Wasting even a single volley on a unit of zombies or other fodder is absolutely terrible with this unit. Hardly ever cost effective despite that Archers are supposed to be the best thing about the Wood Elves.
Change: Increased ammo, increased range, inreased accuracy.

Waywatchers:
- All of the above but worse, since Waywatchers are 1100 Gold a pop. Their saving grace is that they have 180 range.
But for the best archers of the Old World to have horrible accuracy, on par with goblins, is a real joke. Even more so then the Deepwood Scouts Waywatchers struggle hard to be cost effective, with only 18 shots you better only target elite units without shields and pray to god they get to use all their ammo. Again, hardly ever cost effective despite that Archers are supposed to be the best thing about the Wood Elves.
Change: Increased ammo, increased accuracy, slight cost decrease.

Great Eagle:
- Joke unit. Doesn't actually do anything well.
Change: Needs to get some area for itself to excell at. Maybe bonus during air to air fights and some extra HP?

Wardancers:
- Good unit. But I feel CA really let their shadow dances go to waste. They could be really interesting if the effects of their dances weren't so mediocre. To date I haven't seen anybody make use of them. The Wardancers with Swords dance especially irks me. -20 to MA for +20 MD just makes them average all arround. Why not just turn the effect arround? +20 WA for -20 MD and suddenly you have the crazy glass cannons the WE are supposed to be. Other opinions or am I alone on this?

Wild Riders:
- Probably too good now. But since I would like to keep their hard hitting character, I'd suggest a side grade.
-Change: Increased movement speed, decreased HP and decreased MD.

Sisters of the Thorn:
- Underused unit.
Change: If their abilities started off cooldown and with a small price reduction maybe they'd see more use.

Wildwood Rangers:
- As already aknowledged by CA they are overperforming atm thanks to an unintentionally large buff to their AP damage.
Change: Scale down AP Damage some.


I'm looking forward to hearing other suggestions for upcoming nerfs or buffs.
Though, if you're a rude dawi or a stinky beastman pls leave.


Post edited by CA_Will#2514 on

Comments

  • ODM_EmptythoughtODM_Emptythought France, ParisRegistered Users Posts: 671
    edited January 2017
    Wild riders aren't too good. You can kill them with direwolves and knights or any decent cav. Treekins aren't overperforming. They are easy to kill with anti-large units/fire units or AP. They have close to no DPS so don't nerf them.

    Archers are useless against a good player atm because of summoning spells and the fact the you can't win both cav and flying fight as your cav will never beat reiksguard or vampire cav+ direwolves and your flying units are very very bad etc... You will also easily lose the infantry fight as your opponent does not need to invest in expensive armour-piercing units and just needs high-damage/leadership cheap units (forsaken, flagellants, dwarf warriors, big uns, summoned skeletons, bretonnian peasants), which funnily allows him to bring more flyers/cav.
    The skirmish part of the faction is EXTREMELY underwhelming atm in multiplayer since you don't have speed/ammo/reloadspeed/rangeddamage buffs and you can't protect your archers.

    Btw hawk riders are actually better than the great eagle in melee since they are 18 with 45 damage each (armour-piercing). You can kill a paladin with 1 hawk rider for example.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I live in France.... I like animes, mangas, greek/egyptian and roman culture (antiquity + mythology). I usually play Total Warhammer or Battlefleet Gothic and sometimes Vermintide.
    I play almost exclusively MP though 1 or 2 campaigns from time to time can't hurt ;).

  • Mukip#5273Mukip#5273 Registered Users Posts: 693
    Wildwood Rangers could get a cost decrease after their AP damage is nerfed. I doubt they'll be attractive otherwise since their performance is rather spotty as-is. I don't want them to stay the same, though.

    What has to be avoided is making WE into a sort of alt-Dwarf army that just forms a "peasant box" (à la pre-patch Bretonnia) with glade guard, eternal guard and treekin/treeman.
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    The faction only seems to have two effective strategies: sniping or tree blob. A typical balanced WE front line is spearmen and trees trying to hold while the archers do damage. It seems to me that's the way WE should be played, and any changes would only be to open up new play styles for them.

    Dryads:
    Don't they cause fear? That's kind of a big deal in some situations.

    Eagles:
    Seems like they are good at sniping low armor targets, definitely not a joke unit.

    Tree Kin:
    HP nerf? Really? What will WE hold their line with?
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Kirkland WA. USARegistered Users Posts: 2,849
    Dryads: They are missing their tabletop signature durability to go with their damage. Dryads have exactly as much health as an eternal guard unit. toughness 3 elves and toughness 4 dryads having the same hit point point? TOTALLY unexceptionable. That's like goblins having as much health as orcs. Give Dryads some more HP and they will look more useful and be the all-purpose infantry grinder they're supposed to be.

    Great Eagle: I would just lower their damage some and make them cheaper. Eagles were always a fairly weak support unit with a lot of utility in the tabletop. They aren't meant to be a powerhouse. Right now they compete too much with a unit of hawk riders in price and that's not really something they'll ever be able to out perform. make them weaker but cheaper and it opens up a lot of options to throw them in a list for utility purposes.

    Scouts: Vanguard isn't useful on any unit right now and they are charged around 100 gold in multiplayer to get it. Essentially all units with vanguard are overpriced and bad because of this. Scouts don't need a fix as much as vanguard does.

    Treekin: I think they're fine. Reasonably durable and damaging. Their price seems appropriate. They synergise very well with life magic, but that's mostly because the heals from life magic are too strong. Fix that and they're fine.

    Wardancers: I totally agree that their dances are super boring. I just don't care about them because they're not a big deal. I've used each of them maybe 1-2 times and it made a marginal difference. Very non-plused.

    Waywatchers: I want these guys to continue being ultra expensive. I want them to either have a lot more ammo or to have much better accuracy. Not both, either would be fine, but keep them pricey.

    Sisters of the Thorn: There's nothing wrong with this unit on paper. It has 50% damage reduction, lots of utlity with poison ranged attacks, and cool abilities. The fact of the matter though is that they're just too micro intensive. Nobody wants to spend the time to weave them in and out of their short javalin range and worry about their multiple bound spells. Unlike a lot of heroic units with multiple abilities, these units are best employed on the flanks or rear, alone, and their spells are only useful to other units. It's not hard to use a runesmith's abilities because he should be used next to his troops. Working some sisters of the thorn on your flanks while also trying to micromanage your heroes and front line is really hard. They're essentially a hero unit and elves tend to take 3-4 hero units already. Every time I have tried to use sisters of the thorn I found micromanaging them effectively and not forsaking the rest of my army/characters was impossible.
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  • Riggsen#6588Riggsen#6588 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,616
    Dryads seem to perform better than they look in terms of stats. Obviously against anything with armour they're hopeless but they beat up non armoured units very quickly. Perhaps they have a high attack speed?
    "CA WHY U NU UNPOOP GAME" (Dank TW meme of 2011)
  • ODM_EmptythoughtODM_Emptythought France, ParisRegistered Users Posts: 671
    Riggsen said:

    Dryads seem to perform better than they look in terms of stats. Obviously against anything with armour they're hopeless but they beat up non armoured units very quickly. Perhaps they have a high attack speed?

    They perform better against 300 gold spearmen I agree. But that's all. They can't even remove 20% of a greatsword's life. Even a rank 9 dryad can't kill more than half a big un unit. The problem with dryads is their low model number + low melee attack + very average melee damage.
    The only good thing about this unit is that it has 40 armour + 20% physical resistance (it's like having 70/80 armour) . But they don't have a high HP/model so that doesn't make them really tanky either.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I live in France.... I like animes, mangas, greek/egyptian and roman culture (antiquity + mythology). I usually play Total Warhammer or Battlefleet Gothic and sometimes Vermintide.
    I play almost exclusively MP though 1 or 2 campaigns from time to time can't hurt ;).

  • Riggsen#6588Riggsen#6588 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,616
    I think they just suffer the curse of all 'weak vs armour' units, and that is that they're *too* weak versus armour so no one brings them.
    "CA WHY U NU UNPOOP GAME" (Dank TW meme of 2011)
  • Seswatha#7633Seswatha#7633 Registered Users Posts: 4,822
    edited January 2017
    Well, if they would decimate low armour units, they would have their place. But they just barely beat swordsmen or orc boyz. Same problems with crypt ghouls really, imo "weak against armour" units should be really strong vs low armour enemies.

    As for overall WE nerfs/buffs/fixes:

    -Fix issue with WE vs magic resistant units (imo top priority)
    -Reduce fire vulnerability of tree spirits - too easy to counter for factions that have reliable flaming attacks, but if balanced around it would be too OP vs factions who don't
    -Waywatchers +ammo -cost or ++ammo (easiest fix)
    -Great eagle --cost
    -EG shields +cost
    -Dryads +damage
    -Wardancers spears -anti large
    -Wardancers ++MD
    -WW rangers -AP damage -cost
    -Forest dragon ++MA ++MD
    -Scouts ??? (but they suck)
    -Arrow of Kurnous limit charges or make it use ammo
    -Durthu +cost
    -Dragon mount +cost
    -Orion -cost

  • irurobinirurobin Registered Users Posts: 1,826
    @ODM_Emptythought

    Well said.

    All I want is accuracy and ammo buff on archers and buff on sword wardancers. o3o
  • nordoM#6636nordoM#6636 Registered Users Posts: 103
    salsicha said:

    The faction only seems to have two effective strategies: sniping or tree blob. A typical balanced WE front line is spearmen and trees trying to hold while the archers do damage. It seems to me that's the way WE should be played, and any changes would only be to open up new play styles for them.

    Dryads:
    Don't they cause fear? That's kind of a big deal in some situations.

    Eagles:
    Seems like they are good at sniping low armor targets, definitely not a joke unit.

    Tree Kin:
    HP nerf? Really? What will WE hold their line with?

    Yep, as you said the most common armies either rely on a strong frontline with glade guard support or forego any archers and just add Wildwood Rangers and Durthu to the usual mix. A spellsinger with lore of life or shadow is obligatory ofc. Sad, as that is not really the way I imagined WE would play.

    re Dryads: Would be, but they need to win a fight to get a unit to rout.
    re Eagles: Nah, I'm pretty certain they are pretty bad considering their price and are outclassed by Warhawk riders for sniping weak targets with a melee charge.
    re Tree Kin: A slight nerf wouldn't kill them. I only fear that IF other WE units get buffed then the Tree Kins amazing tanking power will be too good. Though maybe it is the Eternal Guard that could use a slight cost increase instead.

    Well, if they would decimate low armour units, they would have their place. But they just barely beat swordsmen or orc boyz. Same problems with crypt ghouls really, imo "weak against armour" units should be really strong vs low armour enemies.

    As for overall WE nerfs/buffs/fixes:

    -Fix issue with WE vs magic resistant units (imo top priority)
    -Reduce fire vulnerability of tree spirits - too easy to counter for factions that have reliable flaming attacks, but if balanced around it would be too OP vs factions who don't
    -Waywatchers +ammo -cost or ++ammo (easiest fix)
    -Great eagle --cost
    -EG shields +cost
    -Dryads +damage
    -Wardancers spears -anti large
    -Wardancers ++MD
    -WW rangers -AP damage -cost
    -Forest dragon ++MA ++MD
    -Scouts ??? (but they suck)
    -Arrow of Kurnous limit charges or make it use ammo
    -Durthu +cost
    -Dragon mount +cost
    -Orion -cost

    Mostly agree with your suggestions but I'd like to say that im unconvinced that all the Waywatchers need to be good is increased ammo, like you and at least one other suggested. I'll take back the drop in price but their accuracy needs to be improved so their damage is not so inconsistent and they are able to hit small moving targets (Heros and Lords). Otherwise I think it's still too big a risk to spend 1100 in a MP battle on a unit that can be taken out easily by cheap warhounds or summons once they are discovered.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,455
    As per usual a lot of polarized opinions interestingly.

    I'm not sure yet where I stand but I think so far they rely too heavily on life healing overall.
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  • nordoM#6636nordoM#6636 Registered Users Posts: 103
    Thread already dying off?

    I had hoped more people would post their own impressions on any WE unit they thought could use some change.
    Cause you know, the more people post and if then some impressions overlap a lot then that makes things more clear for CA.
  • simo90simo90 Registered Users Posts: 100
    i think that your thoughts are the same of other people..
    for example: i think that WW are kinda useless right now because low ammo. In every battle, they can kill 45-55 men ( if i manage to let them alive till battle).. and it sucks considering how much they cost
    DWS and WW in general are sub-optimal compared to GG.. the move and shot with 360° degree arc and ( don t understand yet) the possibility to shot while hidden, it s not worth their price
    + ammo as first, and something else as second: in TT, the WW had killing blow just to remember

    wardancers IMHO are beautifull and perfect like this, but maybe change the activable in something more, you know, devastating, could be better

    cavalry is fine like now is, as monster more or less.. i just wanna see a cost redection of great eagle and dragon
    EG should return to their initial cost ( +50) and dryads should have more hp for the same cost
  • #748870#748870 Registered Users Posts: 4,472
    WE perform well as kite+snipe tactic.
  • AlakyenAlakyen Registered Users Posts: 428
    I think waywatchers perform right beside how useless they become when out of ammo and that happens in every match, being so frustrating. I think they should be less models, with improved aim and more ammo. That way they would snipe a lot better elite small units, and that's their purpose anyway.

    Normal Deepwood Explorers should have better range and the same less models, better aim and more ammo.

    Explorers should force enemy to move. Not to be a shoot you spend before they run out of ammo so then the real battle can begin.

    Eagles totally need a price reduction to 600p they must be supportive paper sacrificable, and they are to expensive now.

    I think wildwood rangers and spear wardancers need a slightly price reduction specially with the upcoming nerf. And wildwood rangers should be anti-infantry, cause we already have too much antilarge.

    And so magic needs to adjust some spells price and effectiveness. I found cheap spells are too much better than expensive ones.

    Glade lord with melee buff still needs anath raema skill and some other like universal no step back skill, now simply is a lot better the other glade lord.

    Beside that I find the wood elves to be pretty fair balanced.





  • nordoM#6636nordoM#6636 Registered Users Posts: 103
    edited January 2017

    WE perform well as kite+snipe tactic.

    Could you elaborate?
    Cause the only effective kiting I've ever seen done was with glade riders (hagbane) and sniping usually boils down to Arrow of Kuronos spam. Don't think this is quite how CA thought WEs would play out.
    Alakyen said:

    I think waywatchers perform right beside how useless they become when out of ammo and that happens in every match, being so frustrating. I think they should be less models, with improved aim and more ammo. That way they would snipe a lot better elite small units, and that's their purpose anyway.

    Normal Deepwood Explorers should have better range and the same less models, better aim and more ammo.

    That could work. Though the accuracy buff would have to be substantial, since lower unit size decreases overall HP as well as damage. It would however work out well with the glass cannon concept.

  • simo90simo90 Registered Users Posts: 100
    edited January 2017
    u can kite as well with WW and WWS.. just protect from cavalry with your cavalry.. the problem is another= those units won t perform good as GG, GR or OR
    and for me WW should be like the new unit of chaos, the heroes something... few models that hit hard.. with sniper quality ( if they have not yet, can t understand), and huge damage against infantry.. more TT orientied choice
    and totally rework WWS.. they are simply useless.. can t find space anywhere.. maybe the ones with double arrows can fit in some armies, again huge mob ( GS, VC for example) but they won t kill more than 40-50 models

    i spammed elves a lot, but now.. well.. i find em quite boring
    Post edited by BillyRuffian#6250 on
  • #748870#748870 Registered Users Posts: 4,472
    nordoM said:


    Could you elaborate?
    Cause the only effective kiting I've ever seen done was with glade riders (hagbane) and sniping usually boils down to Arrow of Kuronos spam. Don't think this is quite how CA thought WEs would play out.

    Man you are right, we should use WE to charge in melee with archers upon treekin and treemen.
  • simo90simo90 Registered Users Posts: 100

    nordoM said:


    Could you elaborate?
    Cause the only effective kiting I've ever seen done was with glade riders (hagbane) and sniping usually boils down to Arrow of Kuronos spam. Don't think this is quite how CA thought WEs would play out.

    Man you are right, we should use WE to charge in melee with archers upon treekin and treemen.
    i guess his talking to the complete uselessness of kiting with WW and WWS
  • nordoM#6636nordoM#6636 Registered Users Posts: 103
    simo90 said:

    nordoM said:


    Could you elaborate?
    Cause the only effective kiting I've ever seen done was with glade riders (hagbane) and sniping usually boils down to Arrow of Kuronos spam. Don't think this is quite how CA thought WEs would play out.

    Man you are right, we should use WE to charge in melee with archers upon treekin and treemen.
    i guess his talking to the complete uselessness of kiting with WW and WWS
    Yup, simo90 gets it.
    The units hat were designed with kiting in mind are the ones not seeing play or if they are, then they're generally used like any other ranged unit.
  • simo90simo90 Registered Users Posts: 100
    and you r forced to do it, simply because u can t kite fast cavalry.. and that s the trick: u shouldn t (ofc) kite fast cavalry, BUT you should have the vantage to have a special infatry archer ( WW, and scout) with some unique ability, and not a different GG with 360° radius, less range and a bit more damage.. for me WW should be completely reworked, should have a concept similiar to aspirant champions for example
  • #748870#748870 Registered Users Posts: 4,472
    edited January 2017
    simo90 said:

    and you r forced to do it, simply because u can t kite fast cavalry.. and that s the trick: u shouldn t (ofc) kite fast cavalry, BUT you should have the vantage to have a special infatry archer ( WW, and scout) with some unique ability, and not a different GG with 360° radius, less range and a bit more damage.. for me WW should be completely reworked, should have a concept similiar to aspirant champions for example

    Here is what i have been thinking about WE, make treekin and treemen from distance appear like a forest and cloak units around them, also rest WE troops when they are in a forest(treeunit cover counts as a forest) they are invisible unless the enemy is right next to them or they attack in melee. This would make WE unique! When WE regular troops aren't in treeunit or forest stealth cover they are as we already know them.
  • AlakyenAlakyen Registered Users Posts: 428
    I simply think ca need to fix vanguard deployment, give it to less units (almost only flying and projectiles) and that way we could add an extra deploy phase for them in which we can see the whole enemies army (Beside hidden) and place our units anywhere, that would made a real purpose to vanguard and explorers things. Making the game more tactical and giving the value to explorers.
  • #748870#748870 Registered Users Posts: 4,472
    Wood Elfs need better accuracy!!
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