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WE need nerf\Beastmen haitred trait wierd?

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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,765Registered Users
    edited February 2017

    elite archers being good is one thing but outperforming great cannon damage in a magnitude of 30 times and more is just hilariously wrong.

    defending that is beyond faction fanboyism

    Umm,l 171 isn't "30 times more " than 247.
    *sigh* how many models/archers are in one unit of WWs? versus how many cannons in a unit?
    I wasn't even considering their fire rate differences, it probably would be closer to 100 times more damage then
    *sigh*

    1.Waywatchers to little AP damage, cannons a whole lot. So you have to subtract potentially quite a bit from the WW's damage output

    2.Cannons do AOE damage and therefore their damage multiplies every time they hit a unit

    3.Cannonballs cannot be blocked by shields, unlike arrows from Waywatchers

    Comment removed.

    Post edited by dge1 on

  • HircaneHircane Posts: 118Registered Users
    HoneyBun said:

    Nope. I was wrong.

    There is a campaign problem.

    For some reason the minute a WE stack is on screen you CANNOT hide. You become instantly visible to all WE and WE allies.

    So literally within 4 turns of my last post I was toast. The Beastmen trick is to hide. It just doesn't work if everyone can see you.

    (FYI there were no 'X horde is discovered' messages). The AI simply acted as though I was fully visible)

    I apologise to the OP. This is broke.

    Exactly what I was talking about. They instantly discover you and reck your ****.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USAPosts: 18,910Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    Posts edited and/or removed. Keep the personal snide remarks out of your posts.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • HoneyBunHoneyBun Senior Member Posts: 4,624Registered Users
    Hircane said:

    HoneyBun said:

    Nope. I was wrong.

    There is a campaign problem.

    For some reason the minute a WE stack is on screen you CANNOT hide. You become instantly visible to all WE and WE allies.

    So literally within 4 turns of my last post I was toast. The Beastmen trick is to hide. It just doesn't work if everyone can see you.

    (FYI there were no 'X horde is discovered' messages). The AI simply acted as though I was fully visible)

    I apologise to the OP. This is broke.

    Exactly what I was talking about. They instantly discover you and reck your ****.
    I just reloaded an earlier save and tried it again.

    I was completely visible. An Empire hero followed me every turn, then a WE hero did the same. In the meantime every Empire and WE stack made a bee-line directly for me.

    This needs to be flagged as a bug

    They are making an FPS. Who knew a company could have a mid-life crisis ...

  • HircaneHircane Posts: 118Registered Users
    HoneyBun said:

    Hircane said:

    HoneyBun said:

    Nope. I was wrong.

    There is a campaign problem.

    For some reason the minute a WE stack is on screen you CANNOT hide. You become instantly visible to all WE and WE allies.

    So literally within 4 turns of my last post I was toast. The Beastmen trick is to hide. It just doesn't work if everyone can see you.

    (FYI there were no 'X horde is discovered' messages). The AI simply acted as though I was fully visible)

    I apologise to the OP. This is broke.

    Exactly what I was talking about. They instantly discover you and reck your ****.
    I just reloaded an earlier save and tried it again.

    I was completely visible. An Empire hero followed me every turn, then a WE hero did the same. In the meantime every Empire and WE stack made a bee-line directly for me.

    This needs to be flagged as a bug
    Yes it is a real problem. Same with the dwarfs I found out. You are never hidden when not in encampment. Fog of war is totally bugged out.
  • BambusekBambusek Member Posts: 186Registered Users
    edited February 2017
    Hircane said:

    So first of all I wanted to discuss how ridiculously agressive the woodelfes are. In the lore they are discribed as a rather defensive faction which is trying to protect athel loren. I think orion and durthu did not quit understand that and decided to just murder EVERYONE.

    Yes, but then what role would they play in GC when controlled by AI? They would sit in their forest doing nothing unless someone attacks them and for player there would be no benefit in doing so: Athen Loren can't be occupied and there are plenty other settlements on the map to loot for money. So unless player really wanted to **** off Elves, he/she would never face them and that would hurt gameplay. Then we would have uproar here about how WE are stupid and no challenge and don't add anything to GC experience.
  • CrajohCrajoh Member Posts: 1,606Registered Users
    Yep got chased by WELFs constantly I started "three moves" away from them and they followed like a heat seeking arrow until they eventually caught up. The only reason I initially knew they were heading straight for me was because they moved past my Gorbull agent who I kept harassing them. GC on Normal.
    Live your life and try to do no harm.

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  • HircaneHircane Posts: 118Registered Users
    Bambusek said:

    Hircane said:

    So first of all I wanted to discuss how ridiculously agressive the woodelfes are. In the lore they are discribed as a rather defensive faction which is trying to protect athel loren. I think orion and durthu did not quit understand that and decided to just murder EVERYONE.

    Yes, but then what role would they play in GC when controlled by AI? They would sit in their forest doing nothing unless someone attacks them and for player there would be no benefit in doing so: Athen Loren can't be occupied and there are plenty other settlements on the map to loot for money. So unless player really wanted to **** off Elves, he/she would never face them and that would hurt gameplay. Then we would have uproar here about how WE are stupid and no challenge and don't add anything to GC experience.
    That is true yet I think they should be less agressive(not passive). I consider that a difference. Also they should not have a aliance with the dwarfs since they dont trust them. Btw I would enjoy them not freaking confederating after 5 freaking rounds! What is up with that? And why are they capable of rebuilding the oak of ages?! That makes no sense to me.
  • HircaneHircane Posts: 118Registered Users
    Crajoh said:

    Yep got chased by WELFs constantly I started "three moves" away from them and they followed like a heat seeking arrow until they eventually caught up. The only reason I initially knew they were heading straight for me was because they moved past my Gorbull agent who I kept harassing them. GC on Normal.

    They need to fix this asap. It is so. annoying! That way it does not even give you a chance to mind your buissness for like 20 rounds...
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIPosts: 7,162Registered Users
    The problem with the WE is that without going back and redressing how Amber is gathered, the WE must be expansionistic in order to get units and upgrade the Oak. If you increased the amount of Amber gotten from treaties, then the WE would just Switzerland it up, and never fight.

    The issue is that the Amber mechanic means that they must either expand, or if the Amber from treaties is increased, then never expand.

    There's really no good way of balancing it, as far as I can see.
    Thrones of Britannia: 69/100
    Warhammer II: 73/100
    Warhammer: 79/100
    Attila: 70/100 [Age of Charlemagne: 72/100]
    Rome II: 49/100
    Shogun II: 93/100 [Fall of the Samurai: 95/100]
    Napoleon: 58/100
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  • HircaneHircane Posts: 118Registered Users
    MrJade said:

    The problem with the WE is that without going back and redressing how Amber is gathered, the WE must be expansionistic in order to get units and upgrade the Oak. If you increased the amount of Amber gotten from treaties, then the WE would just Switzerland it up, and never fight.

    The issue is that the Amber mechanic means that they must either expand, or if the Amber from treaties is increased, then never expand.

    There's really no good way of balancing it, as far as I can see.

    The amber system seems stupid anyway. Whst where they thinking? The system we got before for litterally all other factions was fine! Really annoying stuff.
  • blaatblaat Junior Member Posts: 3,083Registered Users
    MrJade said:

    The problem with the WE is that without going back and redressing how Amber is gathered, the WE must be expansionistic in order to get units and upgrade the Oak. If you increased the amount of Amber gotten from treaties, then the WE would just Switzerland it up, and never fight.

    The issue is that the Amber mechanic means that they must either expand, or if the Amber from treaties is increased, then never expand.

    There's really no good way of balancing it, as far as I can see.

    the AI does not pay amber
    why do you think they can have 5 or 6 forest dragns in their stacks

    snip

    It's much easier and more fun to get engrossed in lore that takes itself seriously and tries to make sense within its own frame of reference.

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  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member Las Vegas, Nevada, USAPosts: 5,559Registered Users
    MrJade said:

    The problem with the WE is that without going back and redressing how Amber is gathered, the WE must be expansionistic in order to get units and upgrade the Oak. If you increased the amount of Amber gotten from treaties, then the WE would just Switzerland it up, and never fight.

    The issue is that the Amber mechanic means that they must either expand, or if the Amber from treaties is increased, then never expand.

    There's really no good way of balancing it, as far as I can see.

    If we are talking about the AI controlled Wood Elves the AI ignores the Amber system, if we are talking about player controlled I had no problems gathering enough amber through alliances (yes it can be slow) to beat the game (though I played the Grand Campaign as Orion and really didn't care about adding many amber units into my army). Actually I had quite the surplus at campaign's end.
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  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIPosts: 7,162Registered Users
    blaat said:


    the AI does not pay amber
    why do you think they can have 5 or 6 forest dragns in their stacks

    I've had 5 or 6 dragons in my stacks... If you play as Durthu you pay no Amber for Dragons.
    Thrones of Britannia: 69/100
    Warhammer II: 73/100
    Warhammer: 79/100
    Attila: 70/100 [Age of Charlemagne: 72/100]
    Rome II: 49/100
    Shogun II: 93/100 [Fall of the Samurai: 95/100]
    Napoleon: 58/100
    Empire: 53/100
    Medieval II: 90/100 [Kingdoms: 90/100]
    Rome I: 88/100
    Medieval I: 92/100
    Shogun I: 84/100
  • psychoakpsychoak Posts: 2,490Registered Users
    The AI is almost never Durthu, he gets confederated by Orion unless someone wipes him out in the first ten turns. It still gets half a dozen dragons in each stack. :)
    1.Waywatchers to little AP damage, cannons a whole lot. So you have to subtract potentially quite a bit from the WW's damage output

    2.Cannons do AOE damage and therefore their damage multiplies every time they hit a unit

    3.Cannonballs cannot be blocked by shields, unlike arrows from Waywatchers
    You're going to great lengths to excuse a picture showing Waywatchers with several times their base damage as acceptable. It's not, get over it, or stop trolling, whichever the case. Also, please look at a Waywatcher at least once before posting again. They're 75% AP damage, they do not do "little" as you stated. This is a higher percentage than the Great Cannon, which has 100 damage, and 280 AP damage.

    Once you cheese them out with all the stacking buffs, they're massively more powerful than siege engines. High mobility, 360 firing while moving, and enough damage to slaughter those hard counter shock cavalry before they make contact even with twice as many units. This is an absurdity to the extreme with no reasoning in balance or lore, it cannot be justified. The base stats of the units are excellent, the upgrades are an obscenity.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,765Registered Users
    edited February 2017
    psychoak said:

    The AI is almost never Durthu, he gets confederated by Orion unless someone wipes him out in the first ten turns. It still gets half a dozen dragons in each stack. :)

    You're going to great lengths to excuse a picture showing Waywatchers with several times their base damage as acceptable. It's not, get over it, or stop trolling, whichever the case. Also, please look at a Waywatcher at least once before posting again. They're 75% AP damage, they do not do "little" as you stated. This is a higher percentage than the Great Cannon, which has 100 damage, and 280 AP damage.

    You again ignore that cannons deal AoE damage, have almost twice the range, ignore shields and deal as much AP damage as the heaviest armor could stomach. If you also factor in red-tree buffs and research then full-veterancy Gread Cannons deal 300 damage and have slightly less than double the Waywatchers reload time.

    So no, Waywatchers do not deal more damage than Great Cannons.

    Full-veterancy Waywatchers do...35 damage BTW.

  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 13,480Registered Users, Moderators

    psychoak said:

    The AI is almost never Durthu, he gets confederated by Orion unless someone wipes him out in the first ten turns. It still gets half a dozen dragons in each stack. :)

    You're going to great lengths to excuse a picture showing Waywatchers with several times their base damage as acceptable. It's not, get over it, or stop trolling, whichever the case. Also, please look at a Waywatcher at least once before posting again. They're 75% AP damage, they do not do "little" as you stated. This is a higher percentage than the Great Cannon, which has 100 damage, and 280 AP damage.

    You again ignore that cannons deal AoE damage, have almost twice the range, ignore shields and deal as much AP damage as the heaviest armor could stomach. If you also factor in red-tree buffs and research then full-veterancy Gread Cannons deal 300 damage and have slightly less than double the Waywatchers reload time.

    So no, Waywatchers do not deal more damage than Great Cannons.

    Full-veterancy Waywatchers do...35 damage BTW.
    Sure, but with bonuses they can do up to at least 171 damage, more I'd wager. That is what was shown in the picture at the beginning.
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,765Registered Users
    edited February 2017
    If you fully max-out the ranged red-tree, sure. But since you can't have both that and the melee tree on the same character (save for Orion), I still fail to see the problem. If any faction should have strong skirmishers it's any Elven ones, shouldn't they?

    By that point you've won the campaign anyway, I'd wager and shielded units are still a bane since their deflection chance is flat and that means zero damage out of 171.

  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 13,480Registered Users, Moderators

    If you fully max-out the ranged red-tree, sure. But since you can't have both that and the melee tree on the same character (save for Orion), I still fail to see the problem. If any faction should have strong skirmishers it's any Elven ones, shouldn't they?

    By that point you've won the campaign anyway, I'd wager and shielded units are still a bane since their deflection chance is flat and that means zero damage out of 171.

    Yeah. I think you can make it more with the outpost bonuses.
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  • psychoakpsychoak Posts: 2,490Registered Users
    This is the most special ed argument I've ever participated in, and man have there been some dumb ones. You're seriously arguing that being able to obtain 600% damage is perfectly reasonable, because cannons? As if they're even remotely as powerful compared to an invisible vanguard unit doing 3000+ damage a shot and firing every three seconds on the move. These aren't strong skirmishers, these are ten second dragon slayer skirmishers that bring the wrath of God down upon the mere mortals they deign to mercilessly slaughter. When you achieve this kind of upgrade level, you're not fighting battles anymore. The entire enemy army simply melts before the awesome cheese of even just a few units. Entire armies of elite troops may as well be a whole army of unshielded goblins. You can simply walk an army of Waywatchers through two full stacks, no tactics necessary, just do the worst possible move for them short of disabling auto-fire so they have to melee.

    What the @$%#.

  • Lord_NathanaelLord_Nathanael Posts: 1,496Registered Users
    edited February 2017
    psychoak said:

    This is the most special ed argument I've ever participated in, and man have there been some dumb ones. You're seriously arguing that being able to obtain 600% damage is perfectly reasonable, because cannons? As if they're even remotely as powerful compared to an invisible vanguard unit doing 3000+ damage a shot and firing every three seconds on the move. These aren't strong skirmishers, these are ten second dragon slayer skirmishers that bring the wrath of God down upon the mere mortals they deign to mercilessly slaughter. When you achieve this kind of upgrade level, you're not fighting battles anymore. The entire enemy army simply melts before the awesome cheese of even just a few units. Entire armies of elite troops may as well be a whole army of unshielded goblins. You can simply walk an army of Waywatchers through two full stacks, no tactics necessary, just do the worst possible move for them short of disabling auto-fire so they have to melee.

    What the @$%#.

    I feel you, arguing balance with the factions fans is hard, I know that first place, I defended empire greatswords and demigryphs a few patches ago before the nerfs of both. but then again, they were not able to be 6 or 7 times better than their counterparts like welf units are with the broken buffs. this shows us, that no matter how extreme, there will allways be people that like that, even if they can win by pressing one button, or they are trolls.

    anyway, this thread proved the point and I hope CA saw it

    now lets hope for the patch in 2 weeks


    inb4 tonnia will be the new welfs


    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 7,299Registered Users
    On the topic off of Amber I felt during my one playthrough in the campaign that it was the only thing adding excitement to the Woodies. Once you've started to accumulate an addiction through buildings, Oak of Ages, technology and unit upkeep you really start to care to take care of your outposts/alliances and losing too many too fast starts to matter.

    But of course if Amber had not been in game then the Welfs would have had to be designed a little differently on the campaign map. The only thing I don't really like is that I can't really design armies the way I'd want with the current system of amber per unit design. I'd rather have seen the recruitment buildings require amber.
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