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Isabella in Online Battles Feels Weak

PlatapiosPlatapios Registered Users Posts: 4
I am finding Isabella to be quite weak in online battles, she doesn't really bring anything to the table that sets her apart from the Red Duke (who is a better caster on a mount), Mannfred (who is a better though more vulnerable caster), Vlad (who has so much more sustain), or a cheaper generic vampire lord.

She does not have Arcane Conduit (or Master of the Black Arts if we want to be more flavorful) so her spellcasting is lesser, why not give one of these two to her to bring her more in line with the Red Duke/Mannfred? I feel as though without arcane conduit she's meant to be a less-tanky Vlad on a mount, which I am all for but her sustain is lacking. The issue lies in the healing cap and her Blood Chalice, it can only be used on herself/heroes once MAYBE twice before the healing cap is reached (as it seems unlike Vlad's passives it isn't increasing the healing cap.) Also vampire heroes tend not be the biggest of powerhouses to warrant focusing on them, but that's a discussion for another day.

Her unique playstyle (vargheists and bats galore) is not reflected in the online battles and she feels like she doesn't succeed well enough in anything to warrant picking her over other lords. Poor dear.

Have others been having a better time with her? Am I approaching her wrong?---

Comments

  • CA_DuckCA_Duck Registered Users, CA Staff Posts: 1,541
    Isabella is a versatile, defensive support lord. She's second to Vlad in terms of tankiness, on par with Vampire Lords for mobility, can debuff key enemy units and has a bound rapid heal item. In general she is very difficult to kill as she is hard to hit with the mobility to choose engagements and the ability to rapidly heal the damage she does take.
    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • KimJaeKyuKimJaeKyu Registered Users Posts: 138
    CA_Duck said:

    Isabella is a versatile, defensive support lord. She's second to Vlad in terms of tankiness, on par with Vampire Lords for mobility, can debuff key enemy units and has a bound rapid heal item. In general she is very difficult to kill as she is hard to hit with the mobility to choose engagements and the ability to rapidly heal the damage she does take.

    no body use. because legendary item actually only can heal to LORD/Heroes. >:P
  • CA_DuckCA_Duck Registered Users, CA Staff Posts: 1,541
    KimJaeKyu said:

    CA_Duck said:

    Isabella is a versatile, defensive support lord. She's second to Vlad in terms of tankiness, on par with Vampire Lords for mobility, can debuff key enemy units and has a bound rapid heal item. In general she is very difficult to kill as she is hard to hit with the mobility to choose engagements and the ability to rapidly heal the damage she does take.

    no body use. because legendary item actually only can heal to LORD/Heroes. >:P
    Healing over 1500 health in 19 seconds is very powerful, especially with a unit that is as hard to hit as Isabella.

    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • OndjageOndjage Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 549
    i feel like if her item could be used on units but with less effect that would be a reason to bring her, like a 1000 heal on a unit instead of the 1500. Since right now she feels a bit lacklustre.
  • RandomTagRandomTag Registered Users Posts: 1,479
    Since she's designed as a campaign unit, I have no problems with her performance /cost-effectiveness in MP.
  • PlatapiosPlatapios Registered Users Posts: 4
    Thank you very much for the quick reply!

    I understand her defensive support role, she does however feel rather expensive (especially without a shield/weaker armor and the same HP as, say, the Red Duke) and I do find her lack of a power recharge ability to be unfortunate (especially since Vampiresses don't have one either so you're left lacking no matter what.)

    Her heal is incredible, it heals for a huge amount. So much, though, that I tend to hit the heal cap quite quick and then it sits off cooldown and unable to be used late game. Does the ability not increase her amount of self healing per game (it seems Vlad will end up healing more, just not as bursty) or is this just a false idea?

    Is her true power supposed to lie in how she has both Red Fury and Beguilement? I was trying bringing a corpse carted necro along with her and using the mega heal to help him out and beguiling any one unit that dive bombs him, that felt pretty effective.
  • gladonosgladonos Registered Users Posts: 635
    RandomTag said:

    Since she's designed as a campaign unit, I have no problems with her performance /cost-effectiveness in MP.

    Why is she a campaign unit? What gave you that idea? Why isn't every LL a "campaign unit"?

  • RandomTagRandomTag Registered Users Posts: 1,479
    gladonos said:


    Why is she a campaign unit? What gave you that idea? Why isn't every LL a "campaign unit"?

    First, on TT Isabella is not even a Lord.
    Second, Isabella is supposed to support and reinforce Vlad at all times, but in 1V1 ladder battles the mutual assistance is impossible.
    Third, all important niches for Lord slot are already filled by existing Lords, there's no point to pay for an overpriced Isabella. Want a duelist to hunt enemy characters? Get the Red Duke. Want a melee powerhouse that cannot be sniped? Get Vlad. Want endless magic? Get Mannfred. No special demand, just want to save money? Regular Vampire Lord will do.

  • PlatapiosPlatapios Registered Users Posts: 4
    Exactly, but I feel every lord should serve a purpose. We can't just say "she's not supposed to be used forget her" -she's a character that is available to be played and therefore should be able to be used with somewhat equal level of effectiveness.

    If her purpose is to fulfill a defensive support role (healing others, has Undeath Resurgent and Beguilement) then she can be tweaked slightly to better place her in that niche. Maybe just giving her an extra ability that is defensive like Magical Animus? Then she has two leadership buffs and the tradeoff for her being less spellcastery than others flying lords is she can inspire your troops much more effectively. Or maybe instead Blood Lust so she has extra troop-buffing tools to better reflect her position as a "less powerful caster and less tanky lord, but one that is mobile and able to support the team through buffing and healing someone other than herself."

    Overall I just do not feel her chalice ability alone warrants her usage instead of the other choices, you run out of healing on your lord/hero quite quickly and you could heal already by having more winds of magic at your disposal. That or reduce her chalice's cost so she's more in line with a regular vamp lord and the question becomes "dude with arcane conduit or lady with a no-cost heal for similar cost?"
  • FerrousTarkusFerrousTarkus Registered Users Posts: 525
    edited March 2017
    I rarely play as the vamps but in short you are asking for either a price reduction or arcane conduit?

    Seems pretty reasonable. But I dont know how good she is so... It might be unwaranted.

    Thing is, vampires have been the top dog for so long, have so many cool additions and RoR units that my beastmen heart can not empathise with that request.

    But Im for true(horizontal) balance so... Anyway Im ranting.
  • gladonosgladonos Registered Users Posts: 635
    RandomTag said:

    gladonos said:


    Why is she a campaign unit? What gave you that idea? Why isn't every LL a "campaign unit"?

    First, on TT Isabella is not even a Lord.
    Second, Isabella is supposed to support and reinforce Vlad at all times, but in 1V1 ladder battles the mutual assistance is impossible.
    Third, all important niches for Lord slot are already filled by existing Lords, there's no point to pay for an overpriced Isabella. Want a duelist to hunt enemy characters? Get the Red Duke. Want a melee powerhouse that cannot be sniped? Get Vlad. Want endless magic? Get Mannfred. No special demand, just want to save money? Regular Vampire Lord will do.

    1. I don't **** care about the TT.

    2. Okay, so lets nerf vlad to to useless because he is supposed to "Support Isabella".

    3. Soooo basically you are saying she sucks? LoL... Then give her a use or reduce her cost or both. No vampire lord fills a nitch because they all do the same damn thing... But why the **** does it have to be the 1 female LL that sucks and people are okay with that and trying their best to justify it.


  • RandomTagRandomTag Registered Users Posts: 1,479
    Since VC in Ver.1.6.0 is the strongest race in ladder battles and VC players have all necessary tools, no one feel handicapped by Isabella being less cost-efficient than alternative Lord choices. I don't justify anything because I don't care about Isabella in MP...or pointless whining about her, anyway.
  • gladonosgladonos Registered Users Posts: 635
    RandomTag said:

    Since VC in Ver.1.6.0 is the strongest race in ladder battles and VC players have all necessary tools, no one feel handicapped by Isabella being less cost-efficient than alternative Lord choices. I don't justify anything because I don't care about Isabella in MP...or pointless whining about her, anyway.

    Fine, then nerf all the other VC lords i don't care. I want Isabella to be viable.
  • CA_DuckCA_Duck Registered Users, CA Staff Posts: 1,541
    edited March 2017
    gladonos said:


    Fine, then nerf all the other VC lords i don't care. I want Isabella to be viable.

    Isabella is viable at the moment. For example, she is currently performing better than Vlad in quick battles.
    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • IndyprideIndypride Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,685
    gladonos said:

    RandomTag said:

    Since VC in Ver.1.6.0 is the strongest race in ladder battles and VC players have all necessary tools, no one feel handicapped by Isabella being less cost-efficient than alternative Lord choices. I don't justify anything because I don't care about Isabella in MP...or pointless whining about her, anyway.

    Fine, then nerf all the other VC lords i don't care. I want Isabella to be viable.
    Congratulations, your dream has already come true. She's multiplayer viable. You can run her on a Hellsteed, one of the best mounts in the game, and she has access to the best lore of magic in Total War Warhammer. She can heal faster than any other lord on the VC roster, and has a ton of mobility on said Hellsteed.

    You aren't asking for her to be viable (because she already is, as all Vampire lords are), you're asking for her to be better than other VC lords. Those arent the same thing. And multiplayer viability isnt the same as Tournament viability either.

    Do you have some suggestions on how to make her better, that make sense from a lore perspective and fit well in terms of game balance? Or do you just want her price decreased?

  • DalakhDalakh Senior Member FranceRegistered Users Posts: 1,937
    CA_Duck said:

    gladonos said:


    Fine, then nerf all the other VC lords i don't care. I want Isabella to be viable.

    Isabella is viable at the moment. For example, she is currently performing better than Vlad in quick battles.
    How can you tell this is not due to the novelty factor at the moment ? Not saying she's bad, just curious.
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  • CA_DuckCA_Duck Registered Users, CA Staff Posts: 1,541
    Dalakh said:

    CA_Duck said:

    gladonos said:


    Fine, then nerf all the other VC lords i don't care. I want Isabella to be viable.

    Isabella is viable at the moment. For example, she is currently performing better than Vlad in quick battles.
    How can you tell this is not due to the novelty factor at the moment ? Not saying she's bad, just curious.
    Because Isabella is not particularly popular, but when picked she does tend to perform well. Only the Red Duke is clearly better than her in the metrics, but it is hard to tell how much the metrics are skewed by the Red Duke being available only to players with a completed Wood Elves campaign.
    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • BillyRuffianBillyRuffian Moderator UKRegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 37,534
    CA_Duck said:

    Dalakh said:

    CA_Duck said:

    gladonos said:


    Fine, then nerf all the other VC lords i don't care. I want Isabella to be viable.

    Isabella is viable at the moment. For example, she is currently performing better than Vlad in quick battles.
    How can you tell this is not due to the novelty factor at the moment ? Not saying she's bad, just curious.
    Because Isabella is not particularly popular, but when picked she does tend to perform well. Only the Red Duke is clearly better than her in the metrics, but it is hard to tell how much the metrics are skewed by the Red Duke being available only to players with a completed Wood Elves campaign.
    So, are you saying that some people have worked out how to use her effectively and do well when playing her, but others may be put off by not having worked out the appropriate play-style?

    "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts - for support rather than illumination." (Andrew Lang)

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  • CA_DuckCA_Duck Registered Users, CA Staff Posts: 1,541

    CA_Duck said:

    Dalakh said:

    CA_Duck said:

    gladonos said:


    Fine, then nerf all the other VC lords i don't care. I want Isabella to be viable.

    Isabella is viable at the moment. For example, she is currently performing better than Vlad in quick battles.
    How can you tell this is not due to the novelty factor at the moment ? Not saying she's bad, just curious.
    Because Isabella is not particularly popular, but when picked she does tend to perform well. Only the Red Duke is clearly better than her in the metrics, but it is hard to tell how much the metrics are skewed by the Red Duke being available only to players with a completed Wood Elves campaign.
    So, are you saying that some people have worked out how to use her effectively and do well when playing her, but others may be put off by not having worked out the appropriate play-style?
    Pretty much. I think on first glance she doesn't seem to offer a clear advantage over other lords, but she does perform well in battle.
    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • PlatapiosPlatapios Registered Users Posts: 4
    Thank you very much for all the discussion, that was fast! Although I would like to politely mention that the post was very specifically was asking about the viability and usage of one particular vampire lord and suggesting (if unwarranted be that as it may) that she be tweaked slightly by either adding already-existing abilities to her or making her special item a little cheaper. Not asking for her to be injected with pure OP and made to single-handed beat out Leoncoeur while out-casting Mannfred or something. Gaslighting by saying "vamps are strongest race either way get over it" is not warranted or conducive to discussion. That's like someone asking "why should I cook a burger with turkey instead of beef if it tastes worse?" and someone being like "you have a burger either way and burgers are already super popular. There are children starving in Africa, get over it." Soo uhh, help us make this turkey burger more satisfying if the metaphor stands xD

    It's very reassuring to hear others are apparently doing well with her, I'd love to hear about that approach :D What are they doing? Do they bring more heroes? Do they get her into the fray or play keep away the whole time? Is she better suited to fighting units as compared to the Red Duke fighting lords or something?

    What should Isabella users do/build differently?

    P.S. Perhaps I misguided in thinking that the Red Duke is like the standard by which to compare the other vampire lords? He's the one I personally use most so maybe my perception is skewed.
  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Registered Users Posts: 2,607
    Isabella's 'niche' is healing other VC heroes. You wouldn't bring her if you weren't bringing heroes, but if you have 2-3 heroes she becomes very handy.
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  • krunshkrunsh Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,692
    edited March 2017
    The only thing I'm not sure about is the price of her unique Item at the moment. Quite expensive, though Ultimately you can take it and then skip on survival abilities and spells in other places. So I don't know.

    She is definitely super tanky.
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  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Registered Users Posts: 4,092
    Can we worry about older lords first before complaining about the brand new ones? Kholek is still shuffling around waiting for someone to pick him. He's just a big teddy bear with a hammer honestly
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,180

    Can we worry about older lords first before complaining about the brand new ones? Kholek is still shuffling around waiting for someone to pick him. He's just a big teddy bear with a hammer honestly

    Christ must Chaos Players make every thread about Chaos? Just because they are currently abit meh that doesnt mean Chaos Players have to make every single thread about them. Cant go 5 posts without seeing someone say "But what about Chaos".
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Registered Users Posts: 4,092
    Krunch said:

    Can we worry about older lords first before complaining about the brand new ones? Kholek is still shuffling around waiting for someone to pick him. He's just a big teddy bear with a hammer honestly

    Christ must Chaos Players make every thread about Chaos? Just because they are currently abit meh that doesnt mean Chaos Players have to make every single thread about them. Cant go 5 posts without seeing someone say "But what about Chaos".
    We have been suffering for AGES!
  • RandomTagRandomTag Registered Users Posts: 1,479
    Any Vampire Lord choice is top tier in current meta, including Isabella. Complaints like OP are just pointless whining.
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