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Aren't all the factions basically evil?

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  • _Storm_Storm Registered Users Posts: 34
    edited April 2017
    Tyrannika said:

    Warhammer's pretty grimdark, even though it's a slightly "weekend cartoon" version of grimdark (It barely holds a candle to 40k).

    Empire: I'd say the concept is Authority, or Hierarchical Dominance. Taken to the extreme in real life, you get into fascism, a decent analogue is 1984 tropes. I trust you wouldn't want to live under the steel boot of Karl, or even a minor ruler in the Empire unless you were really drinking the Kool-Aid, it's real life analogues would be the Soviet Union, Mao's China, or WW2 Germany. In these sort of hierarchical structures there are a great deal of oppressed, and usually starving people. This is 'evil' people can more somewhat relate to, but even though they're oppressing the people, they're holding Chaos, Greenskins, witchcraft (which pretty much invites chaos demons from the warp) at bay.

    The real life analouge is actually the Holy Roman Empire (somewhere between late medieval to early modern), which GW ripped off down to the Germanic names, then threw in the 'classic' gw tropes and called it a day. So it's not particularly bad like say, Nazi Germany, it's fairly standard for a late medieval monarchy type system.
    Post edited by _Storm on
  • GoslingGosling Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,887
    Tayvar said:

    boyfights said:



    Wasn't it grimgor that killed archaon too? Probably more than whatever bertonia did, I'm not about to read the end times to find out though o:)

    no... Grimgor either was killed by Archaon (End Times) or kicked Archaon in the balls and let him crouch away (Storm of Chaos)
    And even when Grimgor got killed by Archaon, he was able to head-butt him real good before that.
    As far as I'm concerned, End Times aren't completely canon XD Which means Grimgor never died.

    I'm waiting for the flipside of the coin: where the polar gates are closed, the Chaos Wastes dissapear, and Chaos is banished from the Warhammer world.

    It involves Grimgor saving the day by turning up to Altdorf from out of nowhere, cutting right through the Chaos horde and krumping Archaon's face as the avatar of Gork (or is it Mork?)
    "I'm gonna stomp 'em to dust. I'm gonna grind their bones. I'm gonna burn down dere towns and cities. I'm gonna pile 'em up inna big fire and roast 'em. I'm gonna bash heads, break faces, and jump up and down on the bits that are left.


    An' den I'm gonna get really mean."

    Grimgor Ironhide, Black Orc Warboss.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,690
    edited April 2017
    Gosling said:


    It involves Grimgor saving the day by turning up to Altdorf from out of nowhere, cutting right through the Chaos horde and krumping Archaon's face as the avatar of Gork (or is it Mork?)

    who then gets backstabbed by the Avatar of Mork, Skarsnik :tongue:
    #RIP BORIS! KILLED BY CA AND GW WITH SHORTSIGHTED CRUELTY JUST TO SHOVE KOSTALTYN DOWN OUR THROATS!

    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • DalakhDalakh Senior Member FranceRegistered Users Posts: 1,937
    I like the fact that races and nations are out for themselves in Warhammer, it gives it a touch of realism. I just wish some of the the evil races were a little more believable but ho well.

    Anyway I don't think racial supremacy between actual races is inherently evil.

    Riddle me this : Humans and wolves compete for the same biological niche, eating/killing each other. The wolves eventually get wiped out by the humans. Who is evil ?
    "We shall strike down our foes with sharp steel and cold hearts. The weak die so that the strong prevail and none shall be spared. Then and only then will our enemies know the true meaning of fear."

    — Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 774
    _Storm said:

    The real life alalouge is actually the Holy Roman Empire (somewhere between late medieval to early modern), which GW ripped off down to the Germanic names, then threw in the 'classic' gw tropes and called it a day. So it's not particularly bad like say, Nazi Germany, it's fairly standard for a late medieval monarchy type system.

    True, although the Empire in Warhammer is pretty heavily focused on the witch-hunting aspect. The church of Sigmar also borrows heavily from Wotanism which was co-opted as a neo-Nazi ideology. Originally, these associations were intended to make the Empire morally ambiguous, but between 6e and 7e GW took the Solomon Kane route and made Chaos unambiguously evil so that Empire could fit into the Order category without any problematic associations.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,968
    Tyrannika said:

    Warhammer's pretty grimdark, even though it's a slightly "weekend cartoon" version of grimdark (It barely holds a candle to 40k).

    That's because Fantasy wasn't originally written to be grimdark. The grimdark was shoehorned in from 6E on when Games Workshop saw that grimdark was popular in 40K, and didn't stop to think that maybe the Fantasy players had a different mindset.

    (5E and before, incidentally, had factions that were fairly clearly good, albeit not flawless. Then they turned the arrogance of the High Elves to 11 and sunk Bretonnia deep into the Dung Ages.)

    Regarding the Empire... As _Storm says, it's the Holy Roman Empire. Apart from the threat of death by greenskins or Chaos, it actually seems to be a fairly decent place to live by late medieval/early Renaissance standards: there is a distinct class structure, but that class structure seems to include a solid middle class and achievable means of upward mobility into the middle class. It's no paradise by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not oppressive tyranny either.

  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 774
    Draxynnic said:

    Regarding the Empire... As _Storm says, it's the Holy Roman Empire. Apart from the threat of death by greenskins or Chaos, it actually seems to be a fairly decent place to live by late medieval/early Renaissance standards: there is a distinct class structure, but that class structure seems to include a solid middle class and achievable means of upward mobility into the middle class. It's no paradise by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not oppressive tyranny either.

    As long as you don't have any mutations, of course.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,406

    Draxynnic said:

    Regarding the Empire... As _Storm says, it's the Holy Roman Empire. Apart from the threat of death by greenskins or Chaos, it actually seems to be a fairly decent place to live by late medieval/early Renaissance standards: there is a distinct class structure, but that class structure seems to include a solid middle class and achievable means of upward mobility into the middle class. It's no paradise by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not oppressive tyranny either.

    As long as you don't have any mutations, of course.
    Renata the Werewolf can testify for that, also looks like the Empire dislike Non Human-Like Races.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Werecreatures
  • boyfightsboyfights Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,023
    Bertonia was pretty damn boring before GW gave them some actual character tbh

    Oh a bunch of knights, cool, oh and they're really heroic you say? Tell me more :grimace:
    boyfights you are always here to confirmate every spark of originality
    or reason burns or acid bruises anyone,
    stop your gladiator love for agressions.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,406
    boyfights said:

    Bertonia was pretty damn boring before GW gave them some actual character tbh

    Oh a bunch of knights, cool, oh and they're really heroic you say? Tell me more :grimace:

    GW made Bretonnia and Vampire Counts too grimdark, but Bretonnia needed little grimdarking, as they was unrealistically nice before, but GW was going little overboard with that. :)
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 774
    Tayvar said:

    Renata the Werewolf can testify for that, also looks like the Empire dislike Non Human-Like Races.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Werecreatures

    The "misguided persecution" angle is only found in Old Canon at this point. In the newer canon Witch Hunters and Warrior Priests are fantasy superheroes.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,406

    Tayvar said:

    Renata the Werewolf can testify for that, also looks like the Empire dislike Non Human-Like Races.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Werecreatures

    The "misguided persecution" angle is only found in Old Canon at this point. In the newer canon Witch Hunters and Warrior Priests are fantasy superheroes.
    Are you sure? it's clearly said that are feared even by the Witch Hunter feared even by the innocent.

    "Judge, jury and executioner combined, a Witch Hunter will use any means necessary to burn out heresy from the heart of the Empire. Not a twinge of doubt softens the knife-sharp edges of a Witch Hunter's soul; his bleak existence allows no room for foibles such as compassion or mercy. Indeed, they are often feared even by the innocent, as it is said that a Witch Hunter would sooner raze an entire village to the ground then see a single worshipper of Chaos go free."

    http://whenc.totalwar.com/#/character/wh_main_emp_empire/spy/emp_witch_hunter
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 774
    Tayvar said:

    "Judge, jury and executioner combined, a Witch Hunter will use any means necessary to burn out heresy from the heart of the Empire. Not a twinge of doubt softens the knife-sharp edges of a Witch Hunter's soul; his bleak existence allows no room for foibles such as compassion or mercy. Indeed, they are often feared even by the innocent, as it is said that a Witch Hunter would sooner raze an entire village to the ground then see a single worshipper of Chaos go free."

    That's from the 8e Empire army book. The rest of the paragraph reads as follows:

    "And yet, for all the heartlessness and cruelty of this dark brotherhood, the Empire needs men of this calibre - men who will put aside their own humanity in order to punish and destroy those who embrace dark sorcery or the temptations of Chaos. Such is the Witch Hunter's duty, and it is a burden lesser men would find impossible to bear."
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,690
    edited April 2017

    Tayvar said:

    "Judge, jury and executioner combined, a Witch Hunter will use any means necessary to burn out heresy from the heart of the Empire. Not a twinge of doubt softens the knife-sharp edges of a Witch Hunter's soul; his bleak existence allows no room for foibles such as compassion or mercy. Indeed, they are often feared even by the innocent, as it is said that a Witch Hunter would sooner raze an entire village to the ground then see a single worshipper of Chaos go free."

    That's from the 8e Empire army book. The rest of the paragraph reads as follows:

    "And yet, for all the heartlessness and cruelty of this dark brotherhood, the Empire needs men of this calibre - men who will put aside their own humanity in order to punish and destroy those who embrace dark sorcery or the temptations of Chaos. Such is the Witch Hunter's duty, and it is a burden lesser men would find impossible to bear."
    yes, though 1) we always have to remember that army books are propaganda for their faction and 2) Yes... the empire needs men of their calibre to deal with Chaos Cults and the likes before they become a real threat to the Empire... this doesnt mean that they are not feared by the population nor that they might not kill innocents just because they suspect them of heresy

    imho
    Post edited by TheGuardianOfMetal on
    #RIP BORIS! KILLED BY CA AND GW WITH SHORTSIGHTED CRUELTY JUST TO SHOVE KOSTALTYN DOWN OUR THROATS!

    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 774

    yes, though 1) we always have to remember that army books are propaganda for their faction and 2) Yes... the empire needs men of their calibre to deal with Chaos Cults and the likes before they become a real threat to the Empire... this doesnt mean that they are not feared by the population nor that they might kill innocents just because they suspect them of heresy.

    The older books were much clearer about the bias of the writing. Much of the 8e lore is presented in neutral language but still contains the same old propaganda. i.e. "Yes, innocent Jews/Witches are killed but it's worth breaking a few eggs to make an omelette" is not a perspective that would have been written neutrally in the older books, it would have been written in-character by a Lector of Sigmar or somesuch.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,406

    Tayvar said:

    "Judge, jury and executioner combined, a Witch Hunter will use any means necessary to burn out heresy from the heart of the Empire. Not a twinge of doubt softens the knife-sharp edges of a Witch Hunter's soul; his bleak existence allows no room for foibles such as compassion or mercy. Indeed, they are often feared even by the innocent, as it is said that a Witch Hunter would sooner raze an entire village to the ground then see a single worshipper of Chaos go free."

    That's from the 8e Empire army book. The rest of the paragraph reads as follows:

    "And yet, for all the heartlessness and cruelty of this dark brotherhood, the Empire needs men of this calibre - men who will put aside their own humanity in order to punish and destroy those who embrace dark sorcery or the temptations of Chaos. Such is the Witch Hunter's duty, and it is a burden lesser men would find impossible to bear."
    The Witch Hunters are Anti-Heros at best, but they can easily get into the 'he who fights monsters' area, and the Witch Hunters are clearly capable of committing 'Van Helsing hate crimes' just as their Inquisitors counterparts from Warhammer 40,000. I am not saying that the Witch Hunters job is not necessary in many cases in the Dark World of Warhammer Fantasy, but where did you get the idea that the Witch Hunters are some kind of Superman when it's comes to their Morals?
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 774
    Tayvar said:

    The Witch Hunters are Anti-Heros at best, but they can easily get into the 'he who fights monsters' area, and the Witch Hunters are clearly capable of committing 'Van Helsing hate crimes' just as their Inquisitors counterparts from Warhammer 40,000. I am not saying that the Witch Hunters job is not necessary in many cases in the Dark World of Warhammer Fantasy, but where did you get the idea that the Witch Hunters are some kind of Superman when it's comes to their Morals?

    They're hard men making hard decisions. If they end up burning a non-Chaotic Werewolf by mistake, that's just part of the burden they bear for the greater good.

  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Registered Users Posts: 1,999

    Tayvar said:

    "Judge, jury and executioner combined, a Witch Hunter will use any means necessary to burn out heresy from the heart of the Empire. Not a twinge of doubt softens the knife-sharp edges of a Witch Hunter's soul; his bleak existence allows no room for foibles such as compassion or mercy. Indeed, they are often feared even by the innocent, as it is said that a Witch Hunter would sooner raze an entire village to the ground then see a single worshipper of Chaos go free."

    That's from the 8e Empire army book. The rest of the paragraph reads as follows:

    "And yet, for all the heartlessness and cruelty of this dark brotherhood, the Empire needs men of this calibre - men who will put aside their own humanity in order to punish and destroy those who embrace dark sorcery or the temptations of Chaos. Such is the Witch Hunter's duty, and it is a burden lesser men would find impossible to bear."
    What do you understand by putting aside their own humanity??????
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 774

    What do you understand by putting aside their own humanity??????

    Hard Men making Hard Decisions.

  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,406
    edited April 2017

    What do you understand by putting aside their own humanity??????

    Hard Men making Hard Decisions.
    You mean like Malekith? or you think that it's okey only when it's the Empire and the High Elves?
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 774
    Tayvar said:

    You mean like Malekith? or you think that it's okey only when it's the Empire and the High Elves?

    Malekith isn't portrayed that way. He's a sadistic serial-killer that GW decided at the last minute to give the moral high-ground.
  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Registered Users Posts: 1,999

    Tayvar said:

    You mean like Malekith? or you think that it's okey only when it's the Empire and the High Elves?

    Malekith isn't portrayed that way. He's a sadistic serial-killer that GW decided at the last minute to give the moral high-ground.
    Well, the Church of Sigmar has committed all kind of crimes, including kidnapping, assasination, torture... They are trying to destroy all greenskins and all who is considered aligned with Chaos or Undead (which has been used numerous times as excuse), which can be considered as genocide.
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 774

    Well, the Church of Sigmar has committed all kind of crimes, including kidnapping, assasination, torture... They are trying to destroy all greenskins and all who is considered aligned with Chaos or Undead (which has been used numerous times as excuse), which can be considered as genocide.

    I'm not saying Sigmarites are better or worse than Dark Elves. They are very different, but both have obvious Real World analogues which the new generation of GW writers isn't sensitive to because they grew up on a self-referential diet of Warhammer.
  • thesniperdevilthesniperdevil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,929
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,414
    Most of this is actually modern civility. Warhammer is a bit derpy, but it's really not that dark from a historical perspective, behavior wise. The outlook is grim, but things like burning witches, slaughtering infidels as a matter of course, that's just Europe a thousand years ago. Or much of the Middle East today. :)

    The majority of Christendom and the Islamic Caliphate would have been overjoyed at the prospect of exterminating each other for good during the crusades. In many places today, the Muslims are still teaching things like murder is only when you kill another Muslim, unsurprisingly, they tend to run around murdering non-Muslims rather more frequently than most cultures. As recently as the forming of Mormonism, there are examples of this behavior in the US. Brigham Young, who has universities and other such things named after him and is a somewhat whitewashed paragon of virtue in that church, at times between raping his followers wives and daughters, advocated wholesale slaughter of non believers with the excuse that murdering them and stealing their **** would absolve them of guilt and save their souls, massacres happened with that excuse in mind. People aren't generally good as a whole, they just follow the rules set by other people that will kill them if they don't. :)
  • KrilralKrilral Member Registered Users Posts: 910
    Well, there are factions in Warhammer who do brutal things because they have to, otherwise they will all die horribly. And then there are factions who do brutal things for **** and giggles.
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 774
    edited April 2017
    psychoak said:

    Most of this is actually modern civility. Warhammer is a bit derpy, but it's really not that dark from a historical perspective, behavior wise. The outlook is grim, but things like burning witches, slaughtering infidels as a matter of course, that's just Europe a thousand years ago. Or much of the Middle East today. :)

    Real history isn't nearly as Doom Metal-y as the Empire. The witch-burning crazes were brief periods of late-medieval history. Before then alternative medicine was generally accepted. Jews were always persecuted in Europe, but never on the same level as the Nazis did. Warhammer just zoned in on the most extreme period of the Holy Roman Empire and injected some neo-Nazi lore for extra effect.

  • knodo85knodo85 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,135
    From my point of view the Jedi are evil!
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,414
    The witch burning crazes fill history along with periods of inquisitions, religious wars, and a general lack of concern for the sanctity of life, and calling them brief periods belies their utter brutality. Salem was a tiny little place, and they managed to find themselves a couple dozen devil worshiping witches in their little community, and it probably wasn't because they thought they were witches, but a political power play by one faction against another.

    Apostasy was a capital offense, blasphemy was a capital offense. Religious intolerance resulted in an execution for anyone that didn't play ball. It still does in a great many countries today. In much of the Middle East, saying something bad about Mohammed generally ends in something along the lines of decapitation. This sort of behavior was the norm a thousand years ago throughout the known world. A lack of Jewish persecution really isn't an indicator of civility.
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 774
    psychoak said:

    The witch burning crazes fill history along with periods of inquisitions, religious wars, and a general lack of concern for the sanctity of life, and calling them brief periods belies their utter brutality. Salem was a tiny little place, and they managed to find themselves a couple dozen devil worshiping witches in their little community, and it probably wasn't because they thought they were witches, but a political power play by one faction against another.

    Before the Malleus Maleficarum (1486) there were no witch-hunters. Sure there was religious persecution, but it was mostly about converting heathens to Christianity or outlawing black magic. It was in the late medieval period that thousands of professed Christians were tortured and executed based on fabricated evidence, just because they were influential women or used alternative medicine.
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