New Infastructure Functions

StarConquest · May 2017

I think that it would be neat if Warhammer II introduced some new infrastructure stuff.

Roads - Though most factions, in lore, don't really bother with roads, the option should still be there for people who want a tactical advantage. If I were playing Empire with 14142124124124 income, why the hell could I not invest in Roman Style highways?

Rural Improvements - Why would I want a farm in a city? I understand that the city is supposed to represent the province, but I think it would be cool if they were separate. Rural improvements could be dependent on city improvements to make things work. For instance, what if I improved rural areas to be farmlands, but that wasn't enough to make a profit, only growth. I could then build some kind of trade or commercial building in the city to facilitate exporting the product made and therefore earn revenue from those exports. It also means the raiding system could get fleshed out more. Raiding lush farmland? You should get some unit replenishment. Raiding a dwarf hold with lots of gold? All their gold now belongs to you.

Reformed Public Order - Why does giving my peasants beer make them happy? Amenities of course! But why is that the only option to make a province happy? There is more than one way to make enemy provinces unhappy! I think roaring economies, lots of protection, natural beauty, external threats [enemies on border/in territory], and some more I probably can't think of right now but make sense, should help improve public order. This creates a more realistic sense of how people would behave. Why would they need beer if they are richer than they could ever imagine?

Taxes - What the hell happened to my tax slider. I want that so that I can tax each province at different rates!

Growing Cities - I think the growth mechanic should greatly be enhanced. Right now, a province grows from a number of buildings and events, until every city is max size. That is pretty boring, and it means successfully developed provinces do not become massive hubs that you would expect them to be. Why is the core province of my Empire, Reikland w/ Altdorf, the same size as some wasteland in Nordland? I think there should be no cap on how large provinces get, [will talk balance in next points], and that as long as there is something keeping it appealing and growing, the cities should expand.

Squalor - Oh No! I don't know very many people who liked how much of a hindrance this was on their Rome II cities, I know I hated it. This would be more manageable, and now a hard and solid public order penalty. Squalor would run through some equation to reduce both grown and public order but would be its own, reduceable, number, that only grew as cities grew larger in population [not just for building a building]. There would be several buildings and techs that helped improve reduction in squalor - like bath houses, clinics, etc. Of course, the more 'civilized' empires would have an easier time managing this, and therefore be able to grow more. It means that the squalid and uncivilized Orks would not be able to keep up with growth, which is really understandable. This mechanic would be manageable, though it would eventually prevent a massive city from growing, balancing infinite city growth.

Immigration/Emigration - If people are not happy, why would they stay? Each different race should have immigrants coming and going, helping or hindering growth. Roads could massively increase the speed of this, for benefit or destruction. This would probably be public order driven, as people who are unhappy want to move somewhere that is happy.

Negative Growth - If there is too much squalor, or too many people are leaving, then population should go down. As population declines below thresholds, buildings should be abandoned, and city size shrunk. If population reaches too little [below the necessary to maintain 1 building], the city should become a ruin.

Politics - I think if politics were revisited, and civil wars were possible but balanced and such, it could be an interesting mechanic. Not really required, though.

Trade - There should be more to trade than having a product then selling it. Tariffs on imports for each product and excise taxes on exports for each product should be a slider. This should affect how much you make off of each being imported, but also affect the amount being imported. If your empire is super poor, you can't have huge tariffs or no one would be able to buy it and therefore nothing would be imported. On the other hand, if your empire is super rich, higher tariffs [though they may decrease public order], are possible, as people will be able to afford it. The same concept would apply to taxes on exports. Infrastructure, like roads and ports, should make trading easier, making exports and imports occur in greater quantity, making more profit.

These are just a few ideas, I am sure there are more, and I am sure I said a few stupid things.

I also doubt any of these will be acknowledged.

daelin4 · May 2017

StarConquest said:

Roads - Though most factions, in lore, don't really bother with roads, the option should still be there for people who want a tactical advantage. If I were playing Empire with 14142124124124 income, why the hell could I not invest in Roman Style highways?

Tactical purpose being what?

StarConquest said:

Rural Improvements - Why would I want a farm in a city? I understand that the city is supposed to represent the province, but I think it would be cool if they were separate.

Before anything you'd need to reform settlement management. Otherwise whatever idea you have will comepte for building slots. It's bad enough that you need certain building combos to get some unique powers, and the AI never tries for them.

StarConquest said:

Reformed Public Order - Why does giving my peasants beer make them happy? Amenities of course! But why is that the only option to make a province happy? There is more than one way to make enemy provinces unhappy! I think roaring economies, lots of protection, natural beauty, external threats [enemies on border/in territory], and some more I probably can't think of right now but make sense, should help improve public order. This creates a more realistic sense of how people would behave. Why would they need beer if they are richer than they could ever imagine?

This kind of already exist in the game...

StarConquest said:

Growing Cities - I think the growth mechanic should greatly be enhanced. Right now, a province grows from a number of buildings and events, until every city is max size. That is pretty boring, and it means successfully developed provinces do not become massive hubs that you would expect them to be. Why is the core province of my Empire, Reikland w/ Altdorf, the same size as some wasteland in Nordland? I think there should be no cap on how large provinces get, [will talk balance in next points], and that as long as there is something keeping it appealing and growing, the cities should expand.

Population surplus only serves to allow you to upgrade certain things in the game. Once you've maxed it out, there is no point in getting those Population Surplus event notifications.
As for size, larger settlements in Rome2 presented pathfinding issues. Because the game had to pre-assign tiles to cities, it was not possible for armies to stand in certain places,, despite the tiles looking just like any other. The big cities were ultimately there for visual effect, anyways, yet it had adverse gameplay effects as a result.
Size of armies and heroes all cluimped near cities already present a problem of spatial issues between game elements. Good luck selecting the right army to attack when their banners overlap with eachother. In Rome2 I'd often attempt to attack a city, but since some portions of the city graphics represent the port, my army instead goes around and attempts a blockade. I don't EVER want to experience that in this game.

StarConquest said:

Squalor

As stated, population growth has no meaning beyond it's intended use, so unless you invent a new impact for them (ie improved replenishment rate), then squalor is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist...or a problem trying to find a subject to be a problem of.

StarConquest said:

Immigration/Emigration - If people are not happy, why would they stay? Each different race should have immigrants coming and going, helping or hindering growth. Roads could massively increase the speed of this, for benefit or destruction. This would probably be public order driven, as people who are unhappy want to move somewhere that is happy.

StarConquest said:

Negative Growth - If there is too much squalor, or too many people are leaving, then population should go down. As population declines below thresholds, buildings should be abandoned, and city size shrunk. If population reaches too little [below the necessary to maintain 1 building], the city should become a ruin.

Erm no thanks, the AI's poor handling of settlements would mean that, if sacking wasn't enough, poor management means most settlements would be Ruins.

StarConquest said:

Politics - I think if politics were revisited, and civil wars were possible but balanced and such, it could be an interesting mechanic. Not really required, though.

Considering all the suggestions so far, Rome2 is what you want to play.
If by civil war you mean loyalty issues and not some inherent mechanic like in Rome2, you'd have to craft characters to be affected by loyalty; so far no Warhammer race features such a sub-mechanic for their characters. I suppose you can make it where Empire armies have a "Loyalty bar" similar to Fightiness that if it goes down, they are liable to turn rogue. I don't think it would work well because the AI is already bad at Fightiness, Attrition and even when under siege.

StarConquest said:

Trade - There should be more to trade than having a product then selling it. Tariffs on imports for each product and excise taxes on exports for each product should be a slider. This should affect how much you make off of each being imported, but also affect the amount being imported. If your empire is super poor, you can't have huge tariffs or no one would be able to buy it and therefore nothing would be imported. On the other hand, if your empire is super rich, higher tariffs [though they may decrease public order], are possible, as people will be able to afford it. The same concept would apply to taxes on exports. Infrastructure, like roads and ports, should make trading easier, making exports and imports occur in greater quantity, making more profit.

No thanks, too complicated just to make money, let along managing settlements to allow this to happen in the first place. Plus, if this relies on AI deciding to trade, then trading will never occur. Plus, a mechanic that affects public order, based on a mechanic that is affected by diplomacy, means you gain public order problems because of diplomacy...a recipe for management nightmare.

corvus_codex · May 2017

well, the problem of all this "deepness" is... that not every faction do that, so, would not that be a disadvantage for orcs, beastmen, warriors of chaos, lizardmen?... etc.

Lord_Nathanael · May 2017

corvo said:
well, the problem of all this "deepness" is... that not every faction do that, so, would not that be a disadvantage for orcs, beastmen, warriors of chaos, lizardmen?... etc.

this, on top of it, those features would just highlight how incredibly unrealistic it is for factions such as beastmen or warriors of chaos to field massive armies with the finest forged equipment despite the lack of any kind of the most basic infrastructure. they don't even have towns.

just imagine how the order factions have to deal with all this management of smiths, forgeries, magic towers, toilets, karl-care, franzonomics and so on to field powerful armies, while chaos gets them for being mean

corvus_codex · May 2017

Lord_Nathanael said:

corvo said:
well, the problem of all this "deepness" is... that not every faction do that, so, would not that be a disadvantage for orcs, beastmen, warriors of chaos, lizardmen?... etc.
this, on top of it, those features would just highlight how incredibly unrealistic it is for factions such as beastmen or warriors of chaos to field massive armies with the finest forged equipment despite the lack of any kind of the most basic infrastructure. they don't even have towns.

just imagine how the order factions have to deal with all this management of smiths, forgeries, magic towers, toilets, karl-care, franzonomics and so on to field powerful armies, while chaos gets them for being mean

well, i don't know about beastmen, probably they make their own armors but about chaos...

from lexicanum: http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Armour

TheGuardianOfMetal · May 2017

corvo said:

Lord_Nathanael said:

corvo said:
well, the problem of all this "deepness" is... that not every faction do that, so, would not that be a disadvantage for orcs, beastmen, warriors of chaos, lizardmen?... etc.
this, on top of it, those features would just highlight how incredibly unrealistic it is for factions such as beastmen or warriors of chaos to field massive armies with the finest forged equipment despite the lack of any kind of the most basic infrastructure. they don't even have towns.

just imagine how the order factions have to deal with all this management of smiths, forgeries, magic towers, toilets, karl-care, franzonomics and so on to field powerful armies, while chaos gets them for being mean
well, i don't know about beastmen, probably they make their own armors

"They wear solid, heavy plates of armour and chainmail, usually scavenged from the civilised races and beaten with fist and hoof until they fit the Bestigors' misshapen and stinking anatomies, and cover their faces with hoods, often made of chainmail.[1a]"

http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Bestigor

TheShiroOfDalton · May 2017

OP, TWA put a great emphasis on stuff like that and was all the worse off for it, so retreading that ground for a game that's supposed to be even more about battles than other TW games feels absolutely counter-productive.

Why not actually come up with more race-specific mechanics instead of recycling stuff from older games that wouldn't befit half of the races anyway?

Lord_Nathanael · May 2017

@corvo
yeah I read that part. its a half arsed lore explanation for "suspension of disbelief". furs, meat (they must have millions upon millions of cattle over there), steel (norse miners and forgeries?) slaves, could never be available in such numbers to make up the worth for those massive demonic armors and weapons. let alone enough to clad armies in it.

in the real world 14th century a single acidiced full plate armor had the worth of a small dukedom

@TheGuardianOfMetal

pretty much the same, except worse, as its outright impossible: the armor segments their models wear could have never been retrofitted armor for humans, the size is insufficient. bending and reshaping steel plates with body strengh? yeah no, if they could actually do that, they wouldn't need any armor anymore, as they would allready have the power to push through any stonewall with ease. go ask metalcrafters how much force is needed to bend 10mm steel plates, and then look at what the models wear.

thats way out of "suspension of disbelief area". yet its okay, as it looks cool, unless you start including the infrastructure needed to actually make that stuff possible, but do it only for factions that could actually be bothered to do it. everyone else gets fitted steel armor for free

(I was crying internally while writing this, due to my lack of english metalcrafting and medieval jobs vocabulary)

corvus_codex · May 2017

Lord_Nathanael said:

yeah I read that part. its a half arsed lore explanation for "suspension of disbelief". furs, meat (they must have millions upon millions of cattle over there), steel (norse miners and forgeries?) slaves, could never be available in such numbers to make up the worth for those massive demonic armors and weapons. let alone enough to clad armies in it.

in the real world 14th century a single acidiced full plate armor had the worth of a small dukedom

well, this isn't real world and sound like a good explaination to me tbh, minerals aren't a problem in the realms of Dawi-zhar (or Norsca) and they indeed have millions of slaves, greenskins in fact, witch are they tire less, and are much stronger than other races slaves.

also... MAGIC AND GIFTS FROM THE DARK GODS
haha.

Schussel · May 2017

That Rural Improvement:
Isn't much of intrest, we concentrate more on cities, the villages can organize themselfs very good.

Trade and Taxes:
We don't use money anymore we developed further so no need for taxes, and not much intrest in Trade.

Unhappiness?
well we have no Beer but we have gallows
somehow Gallows make our people happy don't know why but it works.

Politics:
Our Generals are 100% Loyal to us, even death can't stop them from doing their duty.

Growth, Imigration etc.
If I need that I send our Maids to the cities and they increase growth, don't know how but it works so I don't ask and they don't tell.
Sometimes people immigrate.. sometimes people vanish and strange signs are found... but that doesn't matter at all because our Maids can increase growth.

Squalor:
We burn all the unneeded things on large bonefires so no problem with squalor, and the people like the bonefires

Carogna · May 2017

I agree that we need new campaign mechanics but not recycled ones that do not fit with Warhammer and aren't particullarly interesting in the first place.

I hope Warhammer 2 brings in some new juicy stuff.

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