Armour, Attack, Defence, Charge Bonus and Bonus vs Mechanics

eQsassyljay · May 2017

A while back Duck posted some information in a WE buffs thread that recently I realised is vitally important to new players and to old players who may need to look up mechanics. I had to trawl through the history in discussions to find the post in response to a question from a fellow TW Warhammer player. So @CA_Duck Is it alright if we have this pinned on the forums? Or could even a moderator pin this? I just copy and pasted your post Duck I hope that was alright. This information is so useful.

Armour = Max damage reduction percentage. Min is always 50% of armour value. To be more precise, any time base damage is dealt, the target rolls for armour. This armour roll is a random value between 50% and 100% of the armour stat. The armour roll is then applied as percentage damage reduction. E.g. a unit of Swordsmen with 30 armour can roll between 15 and 30 percentage damage reduction.

Attack and Defense are additive modifiers to hit chance. So +1 attack means +1% hit chance, while +1 defense means -1% chance to be hit. Base hit chance is 40%, min is 10% and max is 90%, so having more than +30 defense than the enemy's current attack is ineffective. Respectively having more than +50 attack compared to enemy defense is ineffective. Defense can be reduced by 40% from attacking an entity from the side and by 75% when attacking the rear of an entity.

Charge bonus adds additively to attack and damage if a unit has charged into combat. It is at max on the first second of engagement and is linearly reduced over 15 seconds. The damage increases uses the existing ratio of ap-to-base damage to determine how much of each it should add. E.g. a unit with 12 charge bonus and 25% ap damage, will get +12 attack, +3 ap damage, +9 base damage on the first second of the engagement.

Bonus vs. large/infantry adds additively to attack and damage like charge bonus, but only against a certain entity size. It's a constant bonus. It's damage increase uses the same ap-base ratio system as charge bonus.

Dart_Aleks · May 2017

That is good one. I was looking for charge bonus and large/infantry bonus. Because many people write that this bonuses add just to base damage.

Riggsen#6588 · May 2017

Good idea to have this stickied.

eQsassyljay · May 2017

@CA_Duck I know there is a lot going on in the forums, so it's hard to spot this, but I still hope this could be stickied as it is such useful information for MP players.

KhorneFlakes · May 2017

i need some detailed info about splash damage + max attack areas...???

Spaniard · May 2017

eQsassyljay said:

Bonus vs. large/infantry adds additively to attack and damage like charge bonus, but only against a certain entity size. It's a constant bonus. It's damage increase uses the same ap-base ratio system as charge bonus.

@ Duck

I have a question. Let's say a unit of halberds is fighting a skeleton + a Cript Horror at the same time both from the front. Is the anti-large bonus of the Halberd being applied against both targets? Or only the Halberd models that are actually fighting the Horrors get the +16 melee attack + the weapon damage?? Or how does the modifier work ? Looks kind of complex to me...

Not sure if I'm making sense....

CA_Duck#1876 · May 2017

These are applied separately for each individual attack. So you'll only get a bonus vs. when attacking a suitable entity.

KhorneFlakes · May 2017

CA_Duck said:
These are applied separately for each individual attack. So you'll only get a bonus vs. when attacking a suitable entity.

how does splash damage area size + max attacks works..???

CA_Duck#1876 · May 2017

Splash attack area is variable and determined by attack animations (e.g. some attacks are cone-shaped, others circles; some attacks have to splash attack areas etc. Max target number means the number of entities that can take damage from an attack. In general it is very difficult to summarise any given unit's splash attack to a number as each attack can be different.

KhorneFlakes · May 2017

CA_Duck said:
Splash attack area is variable and determined by attack animations (e.g. some attacks are cone-shaped, others circles; some attacks have to splash attack areas etc. Max target number means the number of entities that can take damage from an attack. In general it is very difficult to summarise any given unit's splash attack to a number as each attack can be different.

so i take it that...this data is fairly unreliable due to there being different animation as far as area size goes

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EcKGrvX0127UDjR79s5dx3NtI2-cYTlF0-NN_vA80n4/edit#gid=1612260809

also like seen in the case the chaos dragon only has 6 max attacks meanwhile forest dragon has 8...i assume in this case animation will be pretty similar...

also do the units also have different splash damage or is it taken as a percentage from base damage..??

CA_Duck#1876 · May 2017

Splash damage is always weapon damage spread across all entities in target area up to max targets.

KhorneFlakes · May 2017

CA_Duck said:
Splash damage is always weapon damage spread across all entities in target area up to max targets.

so lets say arhcaon has 480 weapons strength and he hits 3 targets...so all 3 will receive 480 damage indvidually(so 1440 in total) or 480 divided into 3 targets individually so like each receives 160 each ..

also answer the the above dragon question also if you can

CA_Duck#1876 · May 2017

Weapon strength is divided by the number of targets in splash attack area.

Pippington#5795 · May 2017

If I have a unit with splash damage engaged with two co-mingled enemy units, do hits on one unit splash to the other unit?

e.g. if I have a unit of trolls fighting a mixed blob of Peasant Mobs and Grail Guardians, can I use hits on the low-melee-defence peasants to damage the high-melee-defence knights?

CA_Duck#1876 · May 2017

Yes. The animation will choose one primary target, but if the unit has a splash attack, it will attack up to a max number of entities in that area. However, the splash attack max target size will dictate against what primary sized targets splash attacks are used. E.g. Demigryph Knights will use splash attacks when attacking against infantry, but not cavalry; Trolls will use splash attacks against infantry and cavalry, but not against other monsters.

Pippington#5795 · May 2017

Awesome. I saw a battle the other day with trolls + savage orcs vs. foot squires + grail guardians and was wondering whether this was happening. Thanks for the detailed answer!

Certainly gives you something to think about when dealing with annoying blobs.

CA_Duck#1876 · May 2017

One clarification, each attack in a splash damage area has its own hit chance. So when a Troll attacks three entities, it will roll three to hit calculations.

Pippington#5795 · May 2017

Ah right, so the Grail Guardians still get the benefit of their high MD. That sucks, I was hoping for a way to be sneaky. Still it makes sense this way.

KhorneFlakes · May 2017

@CA_Duck do charge bonus and bonus vs something also gets added in splash damage..??

also did you check that if single entity units get flank and rear penalties..??

CA_Duck#1876 · May 2017

Yes, charge bonus and bonus vs. is added.

Dalakh · May 2017

CA_Duck said:
One clarification, each attack in a splash damage area has its own hit chance. So when a Troll attacks three entities, it will roll three to hit calculations.

Is the damage split before of after the hit calculation ?

For instance take a unit with 100 Weapon Strength and a max splash of 4 models. It attacks 4 models, only one is hit. Will that model take a max of 100 damage or a max of 25 damage ?

salsicha · May 2017

CA_Duck said:
Yes. The animation will choose one primary target, but if the unit has a splash attack, it will attack up to a max number of entities in that area. However, the splash attack max target size will dictate against what primary sized targets splash attacks are used. E.g. Demigryph Knights will use splash attacks when attacking against infantry, but not cavalry; Trolls will use splash attacks against infantry and cavalry, but not against other monsters.

Oh god, that explains a lot. You are saying that if Kholek charges into a blob of infantry and attacks the Empire General (on horse or Griffin) then Kholek's damage will be divided up in the splash area and the General will only take a tiny fraction of Kholek's damage (WS). BUT, if the General (Griffin) dives into a blob to attack Kholek, the Griffin won't do a splash attack, and Kholek will take ALL the damage (WS).

Basically, a Shaggoth has a massive nerf when attacking a Griffin, but a Griffin has no nerf attacking a Shaggoth, if they are both in melee....

salsicha · May 2017

Oh god, and that explains why it's so hard to hurt the Mortis Engine. If the ME is in a blob of infantry the attack from the Shaggoth is going to get divided up, and the ME will only take a tiny fraction of the total damage....

salsicha · May 2017

@CA_Duck

Can we get a list of units with splash attack showing what opponent types they will splash attack and what they won't?

CA_Duck#1876 · May 2017

If Kholek attacks a Griffin, then he'll focus on it rather than doing a splash attack as the Griffin is very large like Kholek. He'll splash attack a horse or pegasus though.

salsicha · May 2017

CA_Duck said:
If Kholek attacks a Griffin, then he'll focus on it rather than doing a splash attack as the Griffin is very large like Kholek. He'll splash attack a horse or pegasus though.

What about Manticores and Dragons? And is the Mortis Engine a "monster" or is it a "horse?"

Protagoniste · May 2017

Great thread.

Can you explain how melee splash attack "friendly fire" works? If a friendly unit is thrown on the ground by a splash attack, is it taking damage normally or is there some kind of artificial "shield" for friendly units? Are these units "using" a slot that could have been used by an enemy unit instead?

CA_Duck#1876 · May 2017

The splash attack force that sends entities flying is separate from the actual attack. So the only friendly fire you can deal with splash attacks is disrupting the formation.

Dragons are very large, Manticores and Mortis Engine are large.

salsicha · May 2017

CA_Duck said:
The splash attack force that sends entities flying is separate from the actual attack. So the only friendly fire you can deal with splash attacks is disrupting the formation.

Dragons are very large, Manticores and Mortis Engine are large.

So then Griffins are "very large?"

That means that a Shaggoth will splash attack a Mortis Engine? Thus dividing its WS?

CA_Duck#1876 · May 2017

Potentially. It depends on whether other entities manage to fit in the same splash attack area as a Mortis Engine.

salsicha · May 2017

@CA_Duck

What are the different size categories? So far you have mentioned:

Infantry
Large
Monster
Very Large

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