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These are the units I think need the most help

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  • MetaltronMetaltron Posts: 4Registered Users

    Speaking as an Empire player, I can agree with all but the Hellblaster Rocket. This thing is a beast when used right. Bring flagellants with it, and tie up enemy cannon fodder units w/ low armor, then bomb the horde that is dealing with your suicide troopers. It will destroy the enemy formation, route quite a few enemy units [they will return though], and do massive damage. I recently fought a battle with orks. I chose to bring the Sunbringer or whatever, and it worked wonders, [though 2x regulars could have done a little better for only 1.5x the cost]. The ork army, full of savage orks [I had unfortunately brought AP to this fight], was disrupted by my flaggelants. Their savage orks were all brought down to half or lower before they could arrive. With another cannon eliminating their giants, by the time the orks arrived they were shattered. Despite my general being sniped by spirit leach, when the savage orks walked into my 4 handgunners, they took quite a beating and a few more routed. By the time they reached my greatswords, they were hardly a threat, so despite having a leadership penalty, I easily won the fight from that point, being fresh, full, and in formation.

    I think you may have confused the hellblaster volley gun for the hellstorm rocket battery. The hellstorm rocket battery is fine, which does a ton of damage. The hellblaster volley gun is the one similar to the organ gun - it seems to get obstructed quite easily and doesn't do enough damage to justify its price even when it can fire, as it would just be more cost effective to get a cannon.
  • zer0zer0 Posts: 304Registered Users
    Alberic ~ too expensive / not all that great
    Prophetesses ~ (More to do with the Fay being OP) maybe a little too expensive
    Hip Knights ~ Kinda squishy for their cost, need a small buff
    Blessed trebs ~ Can't hit anything, not worth the 200 premium

    Belegar ~ $
    Master engineer ~ $, always obstructed
    Non RoR Ironbreakers ~ Heavily outclassed by the RoR variant, maybe still a bit overpriced.
    Irondrakes ~ still sucks
    Thunderers ~ Slightly too expensive for the dwarves to rely on them as much as they need to.
    Flame cannon ~ $

    Wurrzag ~ Needs a little more health
    Grimgor ~ Needs a little more health
    Skarsnik ~ Needs something, maybe charge defense
    Orc boar boyz ~ squishy no damage
    Savage orc boar boyz ~ squishy no damage

    Witch hunter ~ always obstructed, loses to a gobo big boss even when shooting first and using accusation.
    Warrior priest ~ Super squishy, maybe increase price with armor
    Volley gun ~ bad range, $ (It does do decent damage to armored Infantry tho)
    Pistoliers ~ I would like to see them be a harass/melee unit like free company

    Crypt ghouls ~ Just die and crumble right away
    Hexwraiths ~ Garbage stats
    Non RoR Dire wolves ~ A bit too weak for their price

    Sorcerer lords ~ Low health pool and no potion of toughness, weaker in melee than they should be
    Kholek ~ needs a small armor buff
    Chaos warriors ~ Slow defensive infantry with meh leadership isn't ideal for a rush faction
    Chaos warriors (halberds) ~ too slow to catch anything, can't hold anything down, too expensive to guard positions
    Chosen ~ get tired and rout to quickly for the $
    Chosen (GW) ~ gets nuked before they can engage
    Chosen (halberds) same as the CW variot but more expensive
    Chaos Knights (lances) lose to the cheaper ones, worst and slowest 1500 cost cavalry
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,291Registered Users
    LOL no Wood Elf units mentioned zer0?

    The only units I disagree with you on however are really the pistoliers (I think they should just focus on being good at ranged and not melee since compared to other races they shouldn't be good at melee anyways)

    And Dire Wolves, which aren't that bad at all. Just cause they can't kill anything other than archers doesn't mean a lot since if they do get a hold of archers it will be a massacre.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • zer0zer0 Posts: 304Registered Users
    I don't really play WE, there are beastmen units that need buffs too but I don't have them.

    The ancient treeman needs a buff especially with earth blood getting a nerf.

    Dire wolves main problem is that the RoR variant is so much better for not a lot more but they still aren't that great.
    They lose vs spunkier missiles (free company, quarrellers etc) which is kinda disappointing considering the price.
    the only light cav they have a chance against is maybe 300 gold wolf riders.

    miners could use a little love too

  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,291Registered Users
    zer0 said:

    I don't really play WE, there are beastmen units that need buffs too but I don't have them.

    The ancient treeman needs a buff especially with earth blood getting a nerf.

    Dire wolves main problem is that the RoR variant is so much better for not a lot more but they still aren't that great.
    They lose vs spunkier missiles (free company, quarrellers etc) which is kinda disappointing considering the price.
    the only light cav they have a chance against is maybe 300 gold wolf riders.

    miners could use a little love too

    I agree they're (dire wolves) not great but here's the thing-- not every unit in a roster is going to be cost effective. The meta aspect of balance means sometimes you CANNOT make a certain unit powerful in comparison to its other competition because that means the entire faction skyrockets in power.

    This is why we see Greenskins at such a high level, they don't need to spend tons of money on expensive anti-skirmisher cavalry like the Elves do with Wild Riders. Greenskins pay 600 for 2 VERY effective, fast and punchy wolf riders that slaughter most skirmishers (except dwarfs, but honestly the chariots Greenskins can bring makes up for anything the wolf riders' uselessness could ever bring). IMO Greenskins are granted, not quite as strong as they were before the Bretonnians got their update, but I don't think it's because they're worse, rather because Bretonnia is just so much better (mostly because of healing). And that is why I say once EB gets nerfed a LOT of these factions will get closer together in terms of power.

    Agreed on miners. They are dwarfs and probably a lot of them have spent time fighting in mines during the odd ambush. As you can tell though I am quite wary of buffing cheap units (damned wolf riders!) as cheap units are always dangerously in reach of becoming too spammable as well as too cost effective making what we got at the beginning of the game's release, aka, pre patch(es) spirit leech and whatnot.

    As for beastmen I can't say anything there either at least I'd rather not since I don't own the DLC. But of all the factions I'd actually say Dwarfs + wood elves have the most amount of useless units. Even Chaos I would say has pretty decent amount of "useful" units (it's just that Chaos has literally 0 options in comparison to other armies since the army is so one dimensional).
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • erza321erza321 Junior Member Posts: 986Registered Users
    Hammerers and Iron Breakers. These two units are rarely seen in MP battles because of their high cost and somewhat one dimesion roles.

    Thane and generic Dwarf Lord. I've said a few times now these two units need a wide selection of Runes to gear them to take on any unit type, be it a Rune that gears them up for dueling or the ability to throw a magical runic hammer that allows them to attack flying Lords/Heroes.

    Runepriest and Runelord. Neither of these two have any abilities that counter of dispel magic to counter the types of magic that the Dwarfs natural magic defense doesn't counter, such as healing and spell buffs or debuffs.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    erza321 said:

    Hammerers and Iron Breakers. These two units are rarely seen in MP battles because of their high cost and somewhat one dimesion roles.

    Thane and generic Dwarf Lord. I've said a few times now these two units need a wide selection of Runes to gear them to take on any unit type, be it a Rune that gears them up for dueling or the ability to throw a magical runic hammer that allows them to attack flying Lords/Heroes.

    Runepriest and Runelord. Neither of these two have any abilities that counter of dispel magic to counter the types of magic that the Dwarfs natural magic defense doesn't counter, such as healing and spell buffs or debuffs.



    yup people forget about these units way too many times

    Balance Is A Lie

  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    LOL no Wood Elf units mentioned zer0?

    Because the only good elf is a dead elf.

  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,291Registered Users

    Seldkam said:

    LOL no Wood Elf units mentioned zer0?

    Because the only good elf is a dead elf.

    Hehe, only good chaos follower is a gutted one ;)
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • WakaWaka3000WakaWaka3000 Junior Member Posts: 452Registered Users
    Please note I have updated the original thread with: razorgor herd, great eagles, royal hippogryph knights, and orc boar boyz (normal version, not big'uns)

    I have also taken out goblin wolf chariots as others have pointed out that they aren't as bad as they need to be to make it onto this list. Instead, I put in normal orc boar boyz. I did not put in savage orc boar boyz because they have the recent changes to savage orcs applied, so they could actually be decent. Some testing on them would be greatly appreciated.

    I also removed the section at the end about dragons since they will be getting breath attacks with warhammer 2, which could be enough to make them good... we shall see. Depending on whether the terrorgheist gets its scream attack, it could also be enough to make that unit good, which is why it has no entry on the list. Finally, CA has said they are changing flying unit cycle charging, so that entry is solved...hopefully.

    Finally, I also updated the entry on the helblaster volley gun slightly because it was apparently bugged, and we should wait until that bug is fixed before calling for changes on it.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,291Registered Users
    @WakaWaka3000 Agreed on chariots they're actually not terrible at all though suffer / succeed depending mostly on matchup.

    I'm not sure if you added it but the male Lord for wood elves desperately needs to be there. Light skirmishing cav in general too but that's a blanket statement and pistoliers are far worse than horsemasters / glade riders. (ironic that horsemasters, in the CHAOS faction, have better light skirmish cav than bloody wood elves).
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • WakaWaka3000WakaWaka3000 Junior Member Posts: 452Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    @WakaWaka3000 Agreed on chariots they're actually not terrible at all though suffer / succeed depending mostly on matchup.

    I'm not sure if you added it but the male Lord for wood elves desperately needs to be there. Light skirmishing cav in general too but that's a blanket statement and pistoliers are far worse than horsemasters / glade riders. (ironic that horsemasters, in the CHAOS faction, have better light skirmish cav than bloody wood elves).

    About the male glade lord, I'll think about. Admittedly all I ever see is the glady and occasionally durthu, and I would like to see the male glade lord more often. Although I think part of it is that the male glade lord is supposed to be the melee lord, and the glady is supposed to be the missile lord, but the glady is pretty damn good in melee already, so yeah...

    Prey of anath raema is also incredibly powerful. Perhaps if both lords had it combined with a decrease in the glady's melee prowess then that would balance them.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,291Registered Users

    Seldkam said:

    @WakaWaka3000 Agreed on chariots they're actually not terrible at all though suffer / succeed depending mostly on matchup.

    I'm not sure if you added it but the male Lord for wood elves desperately needs to be there. Light skirmishing cav in general too but that's a blanket statement and pistoliers are far worse than horsemasters / glade riders. (ironic that horsemasters, in the CHAOS faction, have better light skirmish cav than bloody wood elves).

    About the male glade lord, I'll think about. Admittedly all I ever see is the glady and occasionally durthu, and I would like to see the male glade lord more often. Although I think part of it is that the male glade lord is supposed to be the melee lord, and the glady is supposed to be the missile lord, but the glady is pretty damn good in melee already, so yeah...

    Prey of anath raema is also incredibly powerful. Perhaps if both lords had it combined with a decrease in the glady's melee prowess then that would balance them.
    The Wood Elf Lords are good but they're only good because of Prey. Lowering her melee stats too much means she's goblin shaman level of squishy :P

    Also I'm not sure what your first paragraph's point is, It seems like you're in the beginning not exactly agreeing and then eventually kind of agreeing? Just making sure we understand each other lol :)

    As a side note Waywatcher's aren't quite as bad as people say they are admittedly. Their buffs have helped them a lot (even though they weren't too substantial, which shows CA is right in being careful with them) and honestly they're good picks vs. chaos (provided you don't get outskilled but well, not many picks in the wood elf roster will help you there) and dwarfs though dwarfs still I'd say hold an edge since ranger spam will hold back almost anything the Elves can throw at them in terms of a skirmish core.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
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