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Why Elspeth von Draken should be added.

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  • krunshkrunsh Senior Member Posts: 3,606Registered Users
    Geldor said:

    Should the empire also get a dragon? The Empire has a already one of the most varied rosters. Because if we get a dragon riding lord, the next question for sure will be where is the imperial dragon for other lords (Karl has one after all in the TT), and our feral imperial dragon?

    I know it's according to the TT, and I'm not really opposed to it. She sure looks like an interesting character. It's a genuine question.

    Just generally speaking, I'm a bit afraid that the game get's less interesting if they start to make everything available for everyone. I think it takes away from the game a bit. To overstate it: You want a cool, vampire themed "edge lord" on a dragon? Play the vampires.

    Of course this is more of a grey area, not a black/white thing. But if you add dragons to the Empire, HE will want their griffons, DE their manticores etc. etc.

    Having her on a dragon in no way means that other lords need to get one... It's as simple as that.
    i5-3550 CPU @ 3.30GHz
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  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 5,042Registered Users

    Maybe I am alone with my opinion but I don't really like her design.
    She looks more like a Vampire count character instead of an Empire one. I only came to Warhammer through Total War so I lack the background info though.

    This is actually quite typical of Amethyst Wizards. To a certain extent, the main distinction between Amethyst Wizards and Necromancers is that the former are death wizards that accept that they will someday die themselves, while the latter are death wizards that seek to defy death.

    If you go deeper into the lore, human wizards tend to become living avatars of their lore in appearance and personality, an effect that gets stronger as they become more powerful. So powerful Amethyst Wizards tend to start to look like people who are near death (even if they're not) and have a liking for dark clothing and death-related imagery such as skulls, scythes, and hourglasses.
  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Posts: 705Registered Users
    OK Nuln would certainly bring something regarding gunpowder, which is great. But how would this be reflected by Elspeth? She brings only the lore of death and has nothing to do with the military or culture of Nuln. Even a "generic" Empire lord would fit better since he nicely represents the military aspect.

    Is it really a critical argument that she has a dragon as mount? This is a nice to have but should not even remotely be important to decide if she should be in the game. I like Volkmar because he has quite a bit lore background, brings Arch Lector and flagellants and has an interesting skill tree. Not just because of his Altar.

    To be fair, what I read about Theodore Bruckner is that he is not a leader for armies "just" a freaking monster in battle. But it could be a fun to have him with Emmanuelle von Liebwitz as combination for LL.
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Posts: 8,260Registered Users
    edited July 2017
    I like her but let's talk about her after Todbringer and Middenland "officially" arrives...
    Post edited by jamreal18 on
  • ladymissfitladymissfit Senior Member Posts: 1,711Registered Users
    Yeeeeeeeeeeeees, Gimme Draken!

    She's such a rad lass. like, wields a Scythe, Casts Death magic AND rides a Dragon?! It's like she was made for me!
    Chaos lords should be women

    Why is no one talking about mouth feel!?
  • gladonosgladonos Posts: 635Registered Users
    jamreal18 said:

    I like her but let's talk about her after Todbringer and Middenland arrives...

    Oh, okay, welp let's start talking about her then, because Boring Todbringer is already in game for the beastmen DLC.
  • GunKingGunKing Posts: 561Registered Users
    I want her. Cool starting position, pretty unique aesthetic as far as Empire goes. Could get some special Nuln units too. Pair her up with that one Wissenland chick who sits on a couch and has her champion do the all the battle stuff.

    But I also like the idea of lunatic Marius with his Halfling fodder bungling through the map. Maybe he can press gang some Halflings after suppressing their rebellion in a quest battle. If we can get FIMIR in the game, we gotta get those **** hobbits too!
  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Posts: 705Registered Users
    gladonos said:

    jamreal18 said:

    I like her but let's talk about her after Todbringer and Middenland arrives...

    Oh, okay, welp let's start talking about her then, because Boring Todbringer is already in game for the beastmen DLC.
    Really now?
    So we can just use a reskinned Vampire for Elspeth with the lore of death and nothing more. Ohh and of course not playable in the grand campaign, this way she is in the game and all will be happy.
  • gladonosgladonos Posts: 635Registered Users

    gladonos said:

    jamreal18 said:

    I like her but let's talk about her after Todbringer and Middenland arrives...

    Oh, okay, welp let's start talking about her then, because Boring Todbringer is already in game for the beastmen DLC.
    Really now?
    So we can just use a reskinned Vampire for Elspeth with the lore of death and nothing more. Ohh and of course not playable in the grand campaign, this way she is in the game and all will be happy.
    Why would they use a reskinned Vampire...?

    And sure, if you don't wanna have a second sub faction then fine, make her not available in the Grand campaign.

    See, unlike Boring Todbringer she can actually stand on her own merit of interest rather then just being a generic lord with a special model and some special lore. I literally don't care if they added Boris in the Grand campaign because he will not do anything special and will just be a shittier in every way including lore Karl Franz.

    When thinking of what Legendary Lords to add. I wish people would focus on which ones are the most unique and have the coolest ability's rather then "Hes an important character in the lore"

    If that's your argument why are you not complaining about the High Elves not getting the Phoenix King? Is he not important?

    No, i would not go and butcher everything by adding Gotrek and Felix as the leaders of the Empire. I would however have no problem with say making Grey Seer Thanquol in charge of the Hell Pit.

    Gameplay->Lore So long as it does not contradict it.
  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Posts: 705Registered Users
    Boris brings a great starting position, the cult of ulrik with a a new knight order and lord class and (I am sure of) a skill tree revolving around them.

    What does Elsbeth bring? Lore of death? Could also be provided by Viggo Hexensohn.
    Would she have anything to do with Nuln like skilltree regarding cannons and gunpowder? Certanly not!

    What speaks for her? That she is a woman? That is not an argument.
    That she gets a dragon? Yeah than she plays like a Vampire on a flying mount. Nothing more.
  • gladonosgladonos Posts: 635Registered Users

    Boris brings a great starting position, the cult of ulrik with a a new knight order and lord class and (I am sure of) a skill tree revolving around them.

    What does Elsbeth bring? Lore of death? Could also be provided by Viggo Hexensohn.
    Would she have anything to do with Nuln like skilltree regarding cannons and gunpowder? Certanly not!

    What speaks for her? That she is a woman? That is not an argument.
    That she gets a dragon? Yeah than she plays like a Vampire on a flying mount. Nothing more.

    Nuln is a better starting position then Middenland IMO.

    You are in over your head if you think you will be getting Wolf Cavalry haha :D
  • Barrel02Barrel02 Posts: 75Registered Users
    I really dislike her design. It's like GW thought we need something for those little kids who like to be the dark and brooding type with evil magic and stuff but still fight for the "good".
    Dragons for the Empire are in general an affront to Warhammer Fantasy lore and she is just the Edge Lord incarnate and on top of that unfitting for the rest of the whole Empire faction.
    And to all the people going for the so "unique" starting position of Nuln. If you go Nuln then go for engineers or something that really fits Nuln not a reskinned vampire lord on a dragon, that you could put basically anywhere.
    The only real argument I see so far is the lore of death but I don't think we need a LL for that.
    I also want to add that lore IS important. It is the reason why I like to see certain characters ingame not because they have a dragon or different starting positions. And with the little bit of lore provided for Elspeth she would certainly not be the general of an army (I know she is a lord choice in TT, still makes no sense).
    gladonos said:

    I would however have no problem with say making Grey Seer Thanquol in charge of the Hell Pit.

    You should be able to do everything you want with the character ingame, but I think some characters are not needed in the first place as for example Ghorst and Elspeth.



  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Posts: 9,947Registered Users
    gladonos said:


    You are in over your head if you think you will be getting Wolf Cavalry haha :D

    We just got an entirely new race based off stories and 30 year old lore. But getting models I went into GW to buy for my current empire army is over my head?

    Righto.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Posts: 8,260Registered Users
    gladonos said:


    You are in over your head if you think you will be getting Wolf Cavalry haha :D


  • gladonosgladonos Posts: 635Registered Users
    ^ What are you guys even arguing? GW has nothing to do with this... This is about CA, and they will not design unique units for a sub faction. More over I would rather them focus on new monsters and things like that instead of Wolf Cavalry that will be locked into a boring lord.
    Barrel02 said:

    I really dislike her design. It's like GW thought we need something for those little kids who like to be the dark and brooding type with evil magic and stuff but still fight for the "good".
    Dragons for the Empire are in general an affront to Warhammer Fantasy lore and she is just the Edge Lord incarnate and on top of that unfitting for the rest of the whole Empire faction.
    And to all the people going for the so "unique" starting position of Nuln. If you go Nuln then go for engineers or something that really fits Nuln not a reskinned vampire lord on a dragon, that you could put basically anywhere.
    The only real argument I see so far is the lore of death but I don't think we need a LL for that.
    I also want to add that lore IS important. It is the reason why I like to see certain characters ingame not because they have a dragon or different starting positions. And with the little bit of lore provided for Elspeth she would certainly not be the general of an army (I know she is a lord choice in TT, still makes no sense).

    gladonos said:

    I would however have no problem with say making Grey Seer Thanquol in charge of the Hell Pit.

    You should be able to do everything you want with the character ingame, but I think some characters are not needed in the first place as for example Ghorst and Elspeth.



    Ghorst is not needed, because he is a generic necromancer.

    And frankly i think Boris isn't needed either. Elspeth however is because she is unique.

    The Argument that "Ohhhh shes just a Vampire Copy!" Is terrible because i guess Empire shouldn't get guns then because that is a Dwarf thing.
  • 4uk4ata4uk4ata Posts: 895Registered Users
    Dpx79 said:

    Need a counterpart like in grim and grave. But would be nice to get a heavy hitter and engineers

    She kinda already has one, VC have 1 extra LL in Isabela von Carstein, who also is a mage, and amethyst wizards are sworn enemies of undeath and necromancy.

    Her tabletop model looks awesome, so I definitely would not mind seeing her as an agent of the Nuln faction. In turn, it can allow the Empire to be more focused on the VC from the start, and not just eventually.

    Land is Kislev, Kislev is Land! We are Kislev!

    Proud Elspeth von Draken partisan
  • totalromefantotalromefan Senior Member Posts: 526Registered Users
    end of the day ca will pick 'cool' gameplay over lore
    they picked ghorst a lore nobody
    elspeth is not in charge of nuln, but neither is the fay enchantress in charge of a dukedom
    a women( yes that will be a plus for some people) riding a carmine dragon casting lore of death will make for the most unique ll for empire ca could go for
    I would like both her addition to the game and boris+middenland
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 9,135Registered Users
    edited July 2017
    "they picked ghorst a lore nobody"
    because he made a perfect counterpart to Volkmar in a Blood of Sigmar themed DLC...
    Every wrong is recorded! Every slight against us! Page after Page, etched in blood! Clan Gunnison! Karak Eight-Peaks! Josef Bugman!

    Yes! to Boris Todbringer as playable, subfaction leading Legendary Lord with Starting Position Middenheim instead for the Empire! NO to the lazy way of moving Gelt and Volkmar who both belong to Reikland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Posts: 9,947Registered Users
    gladonos said:

    ^ What are you guys even arguing? GW has nothing to do with this... This is about CA, and they will not design unique units for a sub faction

    You don't even know what knights of the white wolf are. They're not "wolf cavalry". They're great-weapon cavalry dedicated to a wolf god. Yet you mock us and act as if we'll be getting a character that almost nobody ever heard of, used or saw.

    I was genuinely trying to work out your reasoning but I'm not sure there's much to be found.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 9,135Registered Users
    edited July 2017

    gladonos said:

    ^ What are you guys even arguing? GW has nothing to do with this... This is about CA, and they will not design unique units for a sub faction

    You don't even know what knights of the white wolf are. They're not "wolf cavalry". They're great-weapon cavalry dedicated to a wolf god. Yet you mock us and act as if we'll be getting a character that almost nobody ever heard of, used or saw.

    I was genuinely trying to work out your reasoning but I'm not sure there's much to be found.
    maybe he's confusing them with these guys



    or maybe he was thinking about the "ulrican counterpart of the Demigryphs"? though these guys are only a combination of the Thunderwolves and WH FB models and afaik not official
    Every wrong is recorded! Every slight against us! Page after Page, etched in blood! Clan Gunnison! Karak Eight-Peaks! Josef Bugman!

    Yes! to Boris Todbringer as playable, subfaction leading Legendary Lord with Starting Position Middenheim instead for the Empire! NO to the lazy way of moving Gelt and Volkmar who both belong to Reikland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?
  • ShiroYarShiroYar Posts: 22Registered Users
    Ulrican units don't have to be locked to one lord any more than savage orcs are. Boris should be able to recruit them anywhere and other Empire faction should have to got Middenland or recruit them only from specific building build-able only there (so just like knighst of the blazing sun).
  • totalromefantotalromefan Senior Member Posts: 526Registered Users

    "they picked ghorst a lore nobody"
    because he made a perfect counterpart to Volkmar in a Blood of Sigmar themed DLC...

    fair enough but thats just another example of ca having different reasons for a caracter addition then lore
  • HarlecHarlec Posts: 278Registered Users
    Would love to see her and add generic death and metal wizards.
  • TheOrganKingTheOrganKing Junior Member Posts: 989Registered Users
    gladonos said:

    gladonos said:

    jamreal18 said:

    I like her but let's talk about her after Todbringer and Middenland arrives...

    Oh, okay, welp let's start talking about her then, because Boring Todbringer is already in game for the beastmen DLC.
    Really now?
    So we can just use a reskinned Vampire for Elspeth with the lore of death and nothing more. Ohh and of course not playable in the grand campaign, this way she is in the game and all will be happy.
    Why would they use a reskinned Vampire...?

    And sure, if you don't wanna have a second sub faction then fine, make her not available in the Grand campaign.

    See, unlike Boring Todbringer she can actually stand on her own merit of interest rather then just being a generic lord with a special model and some special lore. I literally don't care if they added Boris in the Grand campaign because he will not do anything special and will just be a shittier in every way including lore Karl Franz.

    When thinking of what Legendary Lords to add. I wish people would focus on which ones are the most unique and have the coolest ability's rather then "Hes an important character in the lore"

    If that's your argument why are you not complaining about the High Elves not getting the Phoenix King? Is he not important?

    No, i would not go and butcher everything by adding Gotrek and Felix as the leaders of the Empire. I would however have no problem with say making Grey Seer Thanquol in charge of the Hell Pit.

    Gameplay->Lore So long as it does not contradict it.
    That Elspeth stands on her own merit of Interest is Highly subjective. I find her both Boring Lore wise, and Gamplay wise Contradictory to everything that Makes the Empire Interesting. The One thing that Makes the Empire Unique is it's relatively limited fantasy aspects. It's mages are relatively weak, it's lords and heroes are not these amazing super beings you find in other factions and It's access to any monsters is incredibly limited. The Empire relies on Steel, Gunpowder and Faith. The Last thing it needs is a Dragon Riding, Scythe wielding death mage.

    There's also far more to the "Important to the Lore" argument then just importance. There is also Relevance. The Phoenix king is incredibly important to the Lore, but at the same time takes almost no part in any aspect of combat, and therefore is not relevant to the TW game, which is focused almost entirely on Combat.

    There's nothing wrong with wanting certain characters in over others. I'd say that I know that better then most, after all I've been asking that When CA gets around to making a Khorne related faction that they put in any Khorne Champion but Valkia. But you do have to have better arguments then just "I think that Elspeth is the most interesting character" if you want to convince anyone, or more importantly CA, that she's actually worth putting into the game. As it Stands She's:
    Not an Important Character Lore Wise
    Doesn't make sense as a Leader For a Subfaction Lore Wise
    Doesn't Fit the playstyle of her faction
    Is only tied to Amethyst Wizards due to Also Being one

    This compared to say Boris, who:
    Is an important Character Lore wise
    Is actually the Leader of an Empire Sub Faction
    Does actually fit the feel and playstyle of the Faction
    And is directly tied to all the unique Ulric units.

    Boris Clearly has more reason to be put in as a proper LL then Elspeth does.

    Or we could Say Kurt Helborg:
    Is an Important Character Lore wise
    Doesn't make sanse as the leader of a subt faction
    Does fit the playstyle of the Faction
    Is directly tied to the Templar Grandmasters, and as such also the Knightly orders themselves.

    He's still got 3 out of 4 reasons to be put in, While Elspeth has none. Unless you've got better reasons then you think she's a cool and unique character, Realistically there isn't really many other reasons to see her put into the game, especially over many of the other Named Characters of the Empire
    "Chaos strong. Gors strong. Humans, Elves, Dwarf — weak. We win. We fight, we kill, one day we win. One day soon. You — if you lucky, we eat you, make you into part of us, make you better than you, stronger than any of you, stronger than all of you. Once this arm weak, like you. I eat many of your kind, now I strong."
    —Karzog, Beastigor Charioteer.
  • kitekazekitekaze Posts: 179Registered Users
    Red_Dox said:

    • Just becasue she is female, is no reason to add her with priority.
    • Nuln as start position may be a valid point, but she is no ruler in that regard. It feels wrong to let people be province rulers who should be not. I would also not want Schwartzhelm or Helborg starting outside of Altdorf.
    • Which directly corresponds to: We have several Elector Counts for different starting positions, which are the rightful rulers of their provinces and also had/have miniatures/rules.
    • The only thing that makes her unique would be her dragon. Is that a good enough reason? I mean not even Karl Franz has his dragon, so maybe there might be a plan that the Empire should not use dragons ;)
    • In case of magic, instead of her CA could also bring up the Patriarch of the Amethyst Order, who should be more powerful, or some other random goon Alberic style.
    • Nuln is boring anyway. Middenheim & Cult of Ulric should be way more interesting.
    ------Red Dox
    I don't know where to start in this thread so I start with replying to your list.
    1/ Having an Empire LL as Female is a great addition to many players. You have to accept people with different taste.
    2+3/ Elspeth can come along with Emmanuelle, with emma as ruler and elspeth as secondary lord. Both can have different style (one is good at inspiring unit and economy, other is good with magic and combat).
    4+5/Nah, she's unique lord because she can mount dragon, armed with scythe and use death lore for Empire, unless you can find other character the same characteristic. I would not count inventing new one, just look what happen with Alberic and Ghorst when CA go overboard with them.
    6/ Strange that you said Nuln is inferior to Middenheim. Altdorf, Nuln and Middenheim are all major cities and no one should be better than another. Remember the Age of Three Emperor? Or where did Magnus came from?
  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Posts: 705Registered Users

    gladonos said:

    gladonos said:

    jamreal18 said:

    I like her but let's talk about her after Todbringer and Middenland arrives...

    Oh, okay, welp let's start talking about her then, because Boring Todbringer is already in game for the beastmen DLC.
    Really now?
    So we can just use a reskinned Vampire for Elspeth with the lore of death and nothing more. Ohh and of course not playable in the grand campaign, this way she is in the game and all will be happy.
    Why would they use a reskinned Vampire...?

    And sure, if you don't wanna have a second sub faction then fine, make her not available in the Grand campaign.

    See, unlike Boring Todbringer she can actually stand on her own merit of interest rather then just being a generic lord with a special model and some special lore. I literally don't care if they added Boris in the Grand campaign because he will not do anything special and will just be a shittier in every way including lore Karl Franz.

    When thinking of what Legendary Lords to add. I wish people would focus on which ones are the most unique and have the coolest ability's rather then "Hes an important character in the lore"

    If that's your argument why are you not complaining about the High Elves not getting the Phoenix King? Is he not important?

    No, i would not go and butcher everything by adding Gotrek and Felix as the leaders of the Empire. I would however have no problem with say making Grey Seer Thanquol in charge of the Hell Pit.

    Gameplay->Lore So long as it does not contradict it.
    That Elspeth stands on her own merit of Interest is Highly subjective. I find her both Boring Lore wise, and Gamplay wise Contradictory to everything that Makes the Empire Interesting. The One thing that Makes the Empire Unique is it's relatively limited fantasy aspects. It's mages are relatively weak, it's lords and heroes are not these amazing super beings you find in other factions and It's access to any monsters is incredibly limited. The Empire relies on Steel, Gunpowder and Faith. The Last thing it needs is a Dragon Riding, Scythe wielding death mage.

    There's also far more to the "Important to the Lore" argument then just importance. There is also Relevance. The Phoenix king is incredibly important to the Lore, but at the same time takes almost no part in any aspect of combat, and therefore is not relevant to the TW game, which is focused almost entirely on Combat.

    There's nothing wrong with wanting certain characters in over others. I'd say that I know that better then most, after all I've been asking that When CA gets around to making a Khorne related faction that they put in any Khorne Champion but Valkia. But you do have to have better arguments then just "I think that Elspeth is the most interesting character" if you want to convince anyone, or more importantly CA, that she's actually worth putting into the game. As it Stands She's:
    Not an Important Character Lore Wise
    Doesn't make sense as a Leader For a Subfaction Lore Wise
    Doesn't Fit the playstyle of her faction
    Is only tied to Amethyst Wizards due to Also Being one

    This compared to say Boris, who:
    Is an important Character Lore wise
    Is actually the Leader of an Empire Sub Faction
    Does actually fit the feel and playstyle of the Faction
    And is directly tied to all the unique Ulric units.

    Boris Clearly has more reason to be put in as a proper LL then Elspeth does.

    Or we could Say Kurt Helborg:
    Is an Important Character Lore wise
    Doesn't make sanse as the leader of a subt faction
    Does fit the playstyle of the Faction
    Is directly tied to the Templar Grandmasters, and as such also the Knightly orders themselves.

    He's still got 3 out of 4 reasons to be put in, While Elspeth has none. Unless you've got better reasons then you think she's a cool and unique character, Realistically there isn't really many other reasons to see her put into the game, especially over many of the other Named Characters of the Empire
    Your description of the empire and what makes it unique is exactly what I think. More or less low fantasy and still beeing able to kick ass! Eventhough I wouldn't call their mages exactly weak, well maybe compared to some powerhouses of the other faction. ;-)
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 9,135Registered Users
    In regards of the Scythe: IIrc hte Scythe is a typical item for the Imperial Wizards of the Amethyst college... so a "random Death wizard" for the empire should also carry a scythe instead of a normal staff

    "The Empire relies on Steel, Gunpowder and Faith. "
    wrong: it relies on FAITH, STEEL and GUNPOWDER! in this order!

    "It's mages are relatively weak"
    are they? 've read that they become living Avatars of their wind of magic because they concentrate solely on one... that doesn't sound too weak...
    Every wrong is recorded! Every slight against us! Page after Page, etched in blood! Clan Gunnison! Karak Eight-Peaks! Josef Bugman!

    Yes! to Boris Todbringer as playable, subfaction leading Legendary Lord with Starting Position Middenheim instead for the Empire! NO to the lazy way of moving Gelt and Volkmar who both belong to Reikland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?
  • ShiroYarShiroYar Posts: 22Registered Users

    "It's mages are relatively weak"
    are they? 've read that they become living Avatars of their wind of magic because they concentrate solely on one... that doesn't sound too weak...

    If we compare them to slaans, vampires(necrarch), elven and chaos mages (not sure if also skaven) then yes, human wizards in general are middle(lower?) magic-user tier.

  • DestinDestin Junior Member Posts: 183Registered Users
    As someone who dosn't know much about the lore more than milkandcookiestw lore, army and tactics videos.

    She sounds like a really cool and intressting possible Legendary Lord. A 2nd Magic using Lord that could have some bonuses to artillery aswell because of Nuln. Also with a cool uniqe dragon mount.

    I read up alittle on the other two most mentioned, Helborg and Marius, aswell.
    Both seems to be good candidates for LLs but I mostly feel like: do we want another melee warrior LL? With Karl Franz, Volkmar and Todbringer(when he is released) we already have three another one would be a fourth, and only one caster.

    I do however understand why alot of people don't want her since she is not a leader nor highest ranking user of death magic. Now I don't know how many other possible candidates there are out there but of these three I think Elspeth von Draken seems the one that stands out the most and the coolest one.
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    Naggarond - Very Hard
    The Dreadfleet - Very Hard
    Har Ganeth - Legendary
    Clan Skryre - Very Hard

    Mortal Empires Campaigns Completed:
    Court of Lybaras - Very Hard (Long)
    Beastmen (Malagor) - Very Hard (Short)
    Nagarythe - Very Hard (Long)

    Three Kingdoms:
    Sun Jian (Wu) - Normal
    Ma Teng (Liang) - Hard

    Eight Princes:
    Sima Jiong - Hard (Regent)
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