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Spell rebalance needed in next patch.

c0rvusc0rvus Posts: 203Registered Users
Lately the regeneration & resurrecting spell has been brought up alot in the balancing area and most would agree that the Earthblood & Invocation of Nehek has caused huge imbalance in the online QB. I too agree with the idea that these spells need some adjustment before next patch. And I have some idea how. But first let me explain the reason why these spells need to change.

The main problem with Earthblood (also applies to Invocation of Nehek) is that it affects too many units. It is ok if they were like in TT where Earthblood grants regen only to mage's unit, and the Invocation of Nehek doesn't work on the unit that categorize as Large, Ethereal or Vampirics. But currently they are much more powerful than their TT counterpart. It's really beneficial for elite unit such as heavy cav and characters to have regeneration. However, since there isn't a limitation of the unit we can bring, such regeneration spell that affects large area could get magnified by casting on a full cav army, and more. Which would certainly put huge a disadvantage among those faction which don't have lore of life caster. Also too good for a entry level spell.

And as I was saying, the Invocation of Nehek shouldn't work on Large, Ethereal, and Vampirics. It is a resurrecting spell, not a more powerful version of Earthblood. I know some people would think that it will be too harsh of a change for the vampire player, since the statsline of the monstrous in their army are not outstanding. They need more survivability. But the thing is you already get raise dead spell to summon some meat shield to help negate damage. Then you need a spell to heal all of them? com'on. VC is supposed to use powerful augment spell from the lore of vampire to buff their unit help them in the fight, not spamming raise dead then heal til end to solve all the problems.

Changes:

Earthblood - Reduce cast range, and effect radius.
Invocation of Nehek - No longer affects Large, Ethereal, and Vampiric units.

I would expect a lot different opinion since the Invocation of Nehek change I suggested is huge. So if you have ideas plz leave comment letting me know.

Comments

  • FerrousTarkusFerrousTarkus Posts: 525Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    Interresting, its true that vampire need to be nerfed in some area. Its also true that 90% of the time its the only spells that they use... With the occasional wind of death.

    I would start with vampires and ethereal units being immune to nehek. Vampires already have some healing by default. Ethereal are very hard to kill without magic damage and heal work twice as much on them because of their small health pool.

    That being said, if mortis get nerfed, horrors price increased and zombies summon nerfed... Im afraid it might be too much.
  • lucibuislucibuis Posts: 2,495Registered Users
    if erthblood is nerfed buff we please
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,307Registered Users
    lucibuis said:

    if erthblood is nerfed buff we please

    Or spam skirmishers and get easily countered by ranger spam and fast units spam :)
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • erza321erza321 Junior Member Posts: 986Registered Users
    Instead of nerfing magic there instead needs to be a proper counter such as the ability to actually dispel magic, for example spell casters on TT could bring a single use item called a Dispel Scroll that could cancel out none misscast spells.

    The Dwarfs at one point had two items for the Runepriest/Runelord that did this, the Rune of Spelleating and Rune of Spellbreaking (until both were kind of merged in the 8th Edition). Not to mention the Dwarfs had the Runic Banner of Valaya which could dispel any spell that remain in play (spells that have effects that last longer then one turn, with exception of the Comet of Casandora) with a successful 3+ roll.
  • krunshkrunsh Senior Member Posts: 3,663Registered Users
    I think if Crypt Horrors are kept as is instead of being Nerfed, Vampires (Including blood dragons, vargheist, vargulf) and Ethereal units made immune to Nehek, and all vampire themed unitss given a small vampire abillity to regen when in melee (One that would be less powerful and less of a Burst heal than Nehek, of course, so that they can be nuked, but pwoerful against low damage enemies), this could place the VC in a nice place. The morthis engine might need a higher etheral damage resist as well to compensate?

    It would also make other buff spells more attracive to support vampire large units.

    Basically Nehek should only affect skelletons (I think including black knights, corpse cart, necromencers, and whight kings is fine) and zombies. This would make the divide between these types of units more thematic and flavorful.

    I could be wrong though, I've mostly been playing SFO lately and am a bit out of the loop in terms of meta.
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  • c0rvusc0rvus Posts: 203Registered Users
    erza321 said:

    Instead of nerfing magic there instead needs to be a proper counter such as the ability to actually dispel magic, for example spell casters on TT could bring a single use item called a Dispel Scroll that could cancel out none misscast spells.

    You made it sound bringing a dispel scroll is mandatory since the healing blob problem is universal, every faction is gonna have a hard time dealing with it. And healing is getting nerf, because devs are not happy about it.

    The amount of cheesy strats the dwarves don't have access but others do, are part of the reason they get beaten so hard right now, for example: flying cycle charge, healing, kiting etc. I wish them to focus on solving these problems, then probably dwarf will be at a better position.
  • c0rvusc0rvus Posts: 203Registered Users
    krunsh said:

    I think if Crypt Horrors are kept as is instead of being Nerfed, Vampires (Including blood dragons, vargheist, vargulf) and Ethereal units made immune to Nehek, and all vampire themed unitss given a small vampire abillity to regen when in melee (One that would be less powerful and less of a Burst heal than Nehek, of course, so that they can be nuked, but pwoerful against low damage enemies), this could place the VC in a nice place. The morthis engine might need a higher etheral damage resist as well to compensate?

    It would also make other buff spells more attracive to support vampire large units.

    Basically Nehek should only affect skelletons (I think including black knights, corpse cart, necromencers, and whight kings is fine) and zombies. This would make the divide between these types of units more thematic and flavorful.

    I could be wrong though, I've mostly been playing SFO lately and am a bit out of the loop in terms of meta.

    No, you're not wrong. There was a time where VC didn't have the raise dead like the raise dead we have now, their unit were just getting melted under missile fire. The crypt horror gets destroyed in both range and melee cause they're too squish. Now the new raise dead solve this problem but suddenly with regen it became outrageously costeffective cuz they do AP+poison dmg while having no problem in surviving. And along with it, all other large unit got better protection from the new raise dead and on tops of that you have the invocation of nehek. That's the main problem when it comes with current build. Judging by how VC are doing right now, I think the invocation of nehek nerf is reasonable change for VC, but VC players are gonna need to adjust their play.
  • cool_ladcool_lad Senior Member IndiaPosts: 2,272Registered Users
    Or just buff vortexes to make blobbing up units a terrible idea; the problem ultimately arises from the ability to blob up units and heal them without much risk, something that would be solved of vortexes could actually punish blobbing by decimating the units inside.

    The lore of life is pretty much all about healing and positively buffing units, something embodied quite well by the earthblood spell.

    The combination of raise dead and Nehek requires that an enemy caster be allowed to sit pretty much on top of the
    player's flank (due to low range of raise dead) for the entire duration of the fight, something that any player should respond to as they would to any flank; the tactic seems to be in line with the general VC theme and I see nothing wrong with it.

    More generally, I really wish that the accusation of something being imbalanced wouldn't be thrown about as easily as it is. We already know what the quick battle win rates roughly are, with the top being clearly dominated by Chaos, Beastmen and the Wood Elves (2 of whom, it must be noted, can't even bring the lore of life or vampires). In light of this, the complaints seems less about balance and more about eliminating things that are work for factions other than the ones that the complainant favours (invariably Beastmen or Chaos, whose QB win rates are very clearly higher than the other factions). Indeed, the large gulf between win rates of these factions seems to indicate that if anything, the direction of buffs should be towards the lower performing factions (ie: Empire, Bretonnia and VC) instead of further buffing already powerful factions.
  • SpaniardSpaniard Posts: 915Registered Users
    cool_lad said:



    We already know what the quick battle win rates roughly are, with the top being clearly dominated by Chaos, Beastmen and the Wood Elves (2 of whom, it must be noted, can't even bring the lore of life or vampires). In light of this, the complaints seems less about balance and more about eliminating things that are work for factions other than the ones that the complainant favours (invariably Beastmen or Chaos, whose QB win rates are very clearly higher than the other factions). Indeed, the large gulf between win rates of these factions seems to indicate that if anything, the direction of buffs should be towards the lower performing factions (ie: Empire, Bretonnia and VC) instead of further buffing already powerful factions.

    Yes, sure now Chaos, Beastmen and Elves are OP right? lol

    I remember CA Duck also said that there seems to be a correlation "the most played factions being the ones with lowest win rates in QB". Which could mean many things. Lots of new players who don't own DLC are usually not the most skilled ones in MP.

    Usually the ones who own DLCs take the game more seriously and become more skilled. This is why Chaos, Beastmen and Elves have a higher win rate. Nothing else mate
  • irurobinirurobin Posts: 1,826Registered Users
    edited August 2017
    You need to rebalance all Vc units if you go for tabletop version. XD Interesting idea though.

    @cool_lad

    Don't like buffing vortex to avoid box.
    And the win rate means nothing at all.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Posts: 2,984Registered Users
    Good luck with CA getting magic right. They can't even get dwarfs and WoC in a good spot right now in multiplayer.
  • RandomTagRandomTag Posts: 1,479Registered Users
    cool_lad said:

    We already know what the quick battle win rates roughly are, with the top being clearly dominated by Chaos, Beastmen and the Wood Elves

    Chaos and Beastmen? Are we playing the same game?

  • c0rvusc0rvus Posts: 203Registered Users
    I see... So in order to have the balance we want, we need to throw more games or simply not knowing how to play. And your suggestion is we take the vortex (if they made it useful) to counter healing blob. Well, what will become of it is the battle where you just have to have some spell that could either kill hundreds or grant regen, or you could take them both then just start a magic duel with your opponent. Why dose it have to be so complicated? Bringing more stuff to the table will just be causing more problems.

    No comment on your last paragraph. Didn't consider it reality.
  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Posts: 2,598Registered Users
    Expect a little magic tuning in 1.7 but I think the bulk of it is coming in WH2.
    "CA WHY U NU UNPOOP GAME" (Dank TW meme of 2011)
  • erza321erza321 Junior Member Posts: 986Registered Users
    Buffing the the vortex won't work for the Dwarfs because they don't have any aoe abilities, the closest thing they have is the Rune of Wrath and Ruin which only hit's one unit. Not to mention this Rune is supposed to restricted to the Anvil of Doom and is supposed to use power dice (winds of magic in TWW) to cast, because the Anvil of Doom works by absorbing the Winds of Magic to power up the Runes that it uses.

    Maybe if the Anvil of Doom was aviable to the Runepriest and had some of the Runes from older edition of Warhammer then the Dwarfs could have something that resembles a vortex spell.

    The Runes I'm on about are the Rune of Water, Rune of Air, Rune of Fire and the Rune of Earth which I covered in a different thread.
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