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Dark Magic Constructive Criticism

SeldkamSeldkam Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 4,337
edited August 2017 in General Discussion
Most of these spells look great. I get balance is still being moved around.

Buuuuuuuuut.......

The lore attribute:
-15 armor as you're casting is pitiful, flat out. Fire has -12% fire weakness, lore of light has a really nice niche -4 LD for undead, life has lifebloom, wild has the vigour, beasts has +WoM reserves, and I"ll stop there.

I don't know about anyone else but this -15 armor seems a tad... disappointing I guess. It's just boring. I'm not sure if it is actually terrible in terms of competitiveness but I just don't like it. 65 - 15 = 50... it's just not a big difference really. If you have a unit that is going to lose because its' got no AP and it's fighting an armored unit, this ability isn't going to help... at all lol. In fact it probably never will help enough to be worth taking. Thoughts?

Word of Pain spell:

-44 MA
-60% accuracy

For the love of God CA, WHY would you put a minus accuracy debuff on a spell when you know and we know it's just useless??? it just inflates the price of the spell and if you're going to do it, at LEAST make it worth using against ranged units (not that there are many ranged units that it's worth using on lul)

example, gee would I want to use this spell for its -44 MA or its -60 accuracy? I. ****. Wonder. Obviously the -44 MA. Just... what? O_O

Also Chillwind does **** for damage but that's something I think is pretty obvious so whatever. I also never saw it get a clean hit on anything too.

I exaggerate a tad in how bad these things might be but still, think these warrant discussion.
The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
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Comments

  • FrontlinerDeltaFrontlinerDelta Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,549
    It would be interesting if it was a stacking debuff that lasted for about 45 seconds since the last cast. Then if you did a quick few spells you could stack an immense debuff.

    I agree the minus accuracy spell needs to have higher accuracy debuff (or even reload speed effects as well) so that you might want to cast it on ranged units OR melee units.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,337
    Yea. One thing I'll say is that doombolt animation and implementation gave me chills, really awesome
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,710
    The lore attribute is fine. 15 armour is 11.25% reduction. So with most non-ap units they're doing 10% more damage while you're casting, across your whole army.

    What's wrong with -60% accuracy? It adds versatility in a pinch. The spell maybe costs a single Wind of magic more for it.

    The truly disappointing thing about Dark Magic is they didn't include Black Horror.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,337
    Bro accuracy debuffs don't do **** in this game xD

    As for 10% extra damage for 3 seconds-5 seconds max, not impressive compared to the other types of attributes, in the slightest. At least with wild you get a significantly powerful buff like vigor replenishment and you can just spam things like the halfway decent cheap spells , but here I don't even think it's worth using them just for the attribute anyways.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member Registered Users Posts: 1,120
    The lore attribute is extra strength terrible, and Chillwind looks like a non-spell with no noticeable effect unless I'm missing something from the replays.

    But Bladewind and Doombolt. :p<3 Every time they hit anything they did excellent damage.
  • NemoxNemox Registered Users Posts: 2,708

    The lore attribute is extra strength terrible, and Chillwind looks like a non-spell with no noticeable effect unless I'm missing something from the replays.

    But Bladewind and Doombolt. :p<3 Every time they hit anything they did excellent damage. </p>

    Bladewind on that blob... damn that was satisfying. I was surprised they went that way with doombolt, but seeing how effective it is like that, I'm glad for it.

    I agree on Chillwind, I had to keep looking to see what it actually did, even when it was used on a good number of enemies... Seemed to be a cold fart that caused minor discomfort.
  • GrayserGrayser Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 254
    edited August 2017
    Not every lore can or should be amazing/perfect to be honest.

    Thus far the lore attribute and Word of pain are the only things that seem kinda meh, everything else is pretty damn good and I honestly hope it stays that way.

    Magic should be powerful and a Vortex should tear through clumped units, and as long as the offensive component of Dark magic is strong I feel like it stays true to the spirit of the faction.

    Honestly everything DE sounds and looks amazing thus far.
  • wingren013wingren013 Registered Users Posts: 912
    Grayser said:

    Not every lore can or should be amazing/perfect to be honest.

    Dark and High Magic should be.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,337
    They should at least be useful though. Whether or not the current iterations of WoP and the attribute are remains to be seen I admit, but I certainly don't like them...

    And chillwind looks useless but again, balancing etc
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • OrontesOrontes Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 453
    edited August 2017
    Grayser said:

    Not every lore can or should be amazing/perfect to be honest.

    .

    Isn't Dark Magic opted for by the Dark Elves in the lore because it's supposed to be very powerful? If it isn't, then why not stick with High Magic?



  • GeldorGeldor Registered Users Posts: 1,115
    Orontes said:

    Grayser said:

    Not every lore can or should be amazing/perfect to be honest.

    .

    Isn't Dark Magic opted for by the Dark Elves in the lore because it's supposed to be very powerful? If it isn't, then why not stick with High Magic?



    It's more destructive, but not generally more powerful. It also fits more with the DE mindset, by forcing your will on the winds of magic, instead of trying to sooth and manipulate the winds of magic into a whole. One is about willpower and dominance, one is about focus and patience. Pretty much like Star Wars in that respect : )

  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,337
    edited August 2017
    Dark Magic is powerful, but probably not inherently stronger than High. High magic "crafts" and "wills" spells using all of the normal lores, but it is more of a craft. Dark Magic is much more about wrestling with all the lores instead of the more "refined" approach of the High magic lore.

    But yea both are pretty darn strong. However Dark is all about harm (mental or physical) whereas High is either about anti Chaos spells or buffing.

    Note: Anti chaos spells doesn't mean they are only good against daemons, but the original point of High magic was to fight Chaos is all.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • Lord_NathanaelLord_Nathanael Registered Users Posts: 1,496
    edited August 2017
    Geldor said:



    It's more destructive, but not generally more powerful. It also fits more with the DE mindset, by forcing your will on the winds of magic, instead of trying to sooth and manipulate the winds of magic into a whole. One is about willpower and dominance, one is about focus and patience. Pretty much like Star Wars in that respect : )

    nah, they just went with it because the word "dark" is in it
    /s

    it looks all around very strong though exception being the one spell mentioned in this thread earlier


    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • IchonIchon Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,872
    Accuracy debuff is good vs Luminark type units of which there are like 3-4 in the game. Not even worth 1 extra winds of magic in my opinion for the cost already.
    YouTube, it takes over your mind and guides you to strange places like tutorials on how to talk to a giraffe.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,045
    Seldkam said:

    Dark Magic is powerful, but probably not inherently stronger than High. High magic "crafts" and "wills" spells using all of the normal lores, but it is more of a craft. Dark Magic is much more about wrestling with all the lores instead of the more "refined" approach of the High magic lore.

    But yea both are pretty darn strong. However Dark is all about harm (mental or physical) whereas High is either about anti Chaos spells or buffing.

    Note: Anti chaos spells doesn't mean they are only good against daemons, but the original point of High magic was to fight Chaos is all.

    I wouldn't say that the original point of High Magic is to fight Chaos. If anything, Hysh (Light Magic) is more focused towards this. High Magic can certainly be very effective at fighting Chaos and undead, but that's probably because the relevant spells involve Hysh reinforced by weaving in other winds to make it hurt the unnatural even more than Hysh alone would.

    Generally speaking, High Magic is the most versatile, since in theory, High Magic can do anything the individual winds can do, plus things that can only be done by combining them. Dark Magic, on the other hand... well, it would be exaggerating to say that it can only destroy (Necromancy is a branch of Dark Magic, after all, admittedly with a Shyish flavour), but that's certainly where its strength lies. Where High Magic weaves together the lores so that they work together, Dark Magic crushes them together so that the subtle aspects are lost, which usually means that you end up with a mass that is mostly suitable for the magical equivalent of brute force.
  • wingren013wingren013 Registered Users Posts: 912
    I would personally prefer a reload speed debuff over accuracy loss. I know Word of Pain lowered ballistic skill on the Tabletop but its not like CA has felt particularly bound to replicate every spells function from the TT in game *points to lore of fire*
  • Nyanko73Nyanko73 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,351
    edited August 2017
    Seldkam said:

    Dark Magic is powerful, but probably not inherently stronger than High. High magic "crafts" and "wills" spells using all of the normal lores, but it is more of a craft. Dark Magic is much more about wrestling with all the lores instead of the more "refined" approach of the High magic lore.

    But yea both are pretty darn strong. However Dark is all about harm (mental or physical) whereas High is either about anti Chaos spells or buffing.

    Note: Anti chaos spells doesn't mean they are only good against daemons, but the original point of High magic was to fight Chaos is all.

    Technically dark magic is stronger than high because it is pure magic energy. The main difference is, high magic is powerful safe magic and dark magic super powerful but very unstable. It corrupts its users and consumes them if they are not strong enough. That's why Morathi has blackened hands.

    Team Yennefer

    "A blinding flash materialised into a transparent sphere, and inside it loomed a shape, assuming contours and shapes at frightening speed. Dandelion recognised it at once. He knew those wild, black curls and the obsidian star on a velvet ribbon. What he didn’t know and had never seen before was the face. It was a face of rage and fury, the face of the goddess of vengeance, destruction and death." - Time of contempt
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,034
    -44 MA for Word of Pain is still super good, just look at accuracy as a bonus.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 2,545
    Nyanko73 said:

    Seldkam said:

    Dark Magic is powerful, but probably not inherently stronger than High. High magic "crafts" and "wills" spells using all of the normal lores, but it is more of a craft. Dark Magic is much more about wrestling with all the lores instead of the more "refined" approach of the High magic lore.

    But yea both are pretty darn strong. However Dark is all about harm (mental or physical) whereas High is either about anti Chaos spells or buffing.

    Note: Anti chaos spells doesn't mean they are only good against daemons, but the original point of High magic was to fight Chaos is all.

    Technically dark magic is stronger than high because it is pure magic energy. The main difference is, high magic is powerful safe magic and dark magic super powerful but very unstable. It corrupts its users and consumes them if they are not strong enough. That's why Morathi has blackened hands.
    Don't remind me that's not loreful in her case at all if you ask me.Otherwise agree with what you say
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,337
    WoP is 8 magic for just 1 target -44 MA. It's not bad, but the real problem is that the cost is higher than it really should be because of that extra 60% accuracy thing. It's just a "bonus' that adds cost which is way more of an issue for the spell's usefulness than anything else.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,710
    Dark Magic isn't 'pure magic energy' any more than High Magic is. They're both using all eight winds together, one mashes them all together the other uses them in harmony.

    If any lore is 'pure magic energy' it's probably the Lore of Tzeentch.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 2,545
    Nitros14 said:

    Dark Magic isn't 'pure magic energy' any more than High Magic is. They're both using all eight winds together, one mashes them all together the other uses them in harmony.

    If any lore is 'pure magic energy' it's probably the Lore of Tzeentch.


  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,045
    Nyanko73 said:

    Seldkam said:

    Dark Magic is powerful, but probably not inherently stronger than High. High magic "crafts" and "wills" spells using all of the normal lores, but it is more of a craft. Dark Magic is much more about wrestling with all the lores instead of the more "refined" approach of the High magic lore.

    But yea both are pretty darn strong. However Dark is all about harm (mental or physical) whereas High is either about anti Chaos spells or buffing.

    Note: Anti chaos spells doesn't mean they are only good against daemons, but the original point of High magic was to fight Chaos is all.

    Technically dark magic is stronger than high because it is pure magic energy. The main difference is, high magic is powerful safe magic and dark magic super powerful but very unstable. It corrupts its users and consumes them if they are not strong enough. That's why Morathi has blackened hands.
    Not really, since some of the power of the individual lores is lost on compressing them into Dark Magic. Dark Magic allows you to get a lot of power quickly, but High Magic makes more efficient use of the available power and can be used to craft more powerful effects if you have the time to do it. (Which is to say, generally not under battlefield conditions...)

    Dark Magic does make for the most powerful magic in the lore if you're looking for a blunt instrument, but for most other purposes it falls behind High Magic.
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,710
    That conflicts with the information in the Liber Chaotica: Tzeentch.

    But warhammer lore was never all that consistent.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,337
    Pretty debatable bro. Dark magic in the lore + army books is pretty damn flexible.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,045
    Seldkam said:

    Pretty debatable bro. Dark magic in the lore + army books is pretty damn flexible.

    5E: 6/10 spells dish out damage, one is a hex (which covers the comment someone made earlier about attacking the mind rather than the body), one is a teleport (most lores had one of those in 5E), one is, weirdly enough, Transformation of Kadon, and one is the obligatory 'get more magic' spell. Note that in 5E, Dark Magic wasn't an exclusively Dark Elven lore, but was also available to Chaos and Undead. This is also an edition where Light Magic worked completely differently to how it did in 6E and beyond, so its safe to say that the lores weren't really 'set' in their behaviour yet.

    6E: Four direct damage spells (with one healing the caster), one hex, and one mind control spell.

    7E: Five different damaging spells (with one healing the caster), one hex, and the obligatory 'get more magic' spell.

    8E: Five damage spells, two hexes, and the obligatory 'get more magic' spell.

    It's pretty clear that Dark Magic in the army books, certainly from 6E on, is pretty much all 'gather power and use that power to attack something'. It can attack the body, the mind, or the soul, but if your purpose isn't to destroy, Dark Magic just isn't going to help you. Granted, in the fluff, Dark Elven magic can do more than just destroy... but the Dark Elves aren't limited to Dark Magic alone.

    Now, this is just talking about the technical 'Dark Magic' in the Dark Elf army books. Fluffwise, most of the racial-specific lores, including necromancy, the skaven lores, and the Chaos lores, employed Dark Magic to some degree, and some of them have more versatility. However, they're all slanted pretty strongly towards destroying things. In both fluff and crunch, Dark Magic is strongly slanted towards destruction.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 2,545
    edited August 2017
    Draxynnic said:

    Seldkam said:

    Pretty debatable bro. Dark magic in the lore + army books is pretty damn flexible.

    5E: 6/10 spells dish out damage, one is a hex (which covers the comment someone made earlier about attacking the mind rather than the body), one is a teleport (most lores had one of those in 5E), one is, weirdly enough, Transformation of Kadon, and one is the obligatory 'get more magic' spell. Note that in 5E, Dark Magic wasn't an exclusively Dark Elven lore, but was also available to Chaos and Undead. This is also an edition where Light Magic worked completely differently to how it did in 6E and beyond, so its safe to say that the lores weren't really 'set' in their behaviour yet.

    6E: Four direct damage spells (with one healing the caster), one hex, and one mind control spell.

    7E: Five different damaging spells (with one healing the caster), one hex, and the obligatory 'get more magic' spell.

    8E: Five damage spells, two hexes, and the obligatory 'get more magic' spell.

    It's pretty clear that Dark Magic in the army books, certainly from 6E on, is pretty much all 'gather power and use that power to attack something'. It can attack the body, the mind, or the soul, but if your purpose isn't to destroy, Dark Magic just isn't going to help you. Granted, in the fluff, Dark Elven magic can do more than just destroy... but the Dark Elves aren't limited to Dark Magic alone.

    Now, this is just talking about the technical 'Dark Magic' in the Dark Elf army books. Fluffwise, most of the racial-specific lores, including necromancy, the skaven lores, and the Chaos lores, employed Dark Magic to some degree, and some of them have more versatility. However, they're all slanted pretty strongly towards destroying things. In both fluff and crunch, Dark Magic is strongly slanted towards destruction.
    You missed that one of them heal the caster in 8th edition too soustealer does that :P~~. Also High Magic only has augments/ buffs and damage spells in its spell list so they are pretty much in the same boat
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,337
    Draxynnic said:

    Seldkam said:

    Pretty debatable bro. Dark magic in the lore + army books is pretty damn flexible.

    5E: 6/10 spells dish out damage, one is a hex (which covers the comment someone made earlier about attacking the mind rather than the body), one is a teleport (most lores had one of those in 5E), one is, weirdly enough, Transformation of Kadon, and one is the obligatory 'get more magic' spell. Note that in 5E, Dark Magic wasn't an exclusively Dark Elven lore, but was also available to Chaos and Undead. This is also an edition where Light Magic worked completely differently to how it did in 6E and beyond, so its safe to say that the lores weren't really 'set' in their behaviour yet.

    6E: Four direct damage spells (with one healing the caster), one hex, and one mind control spell.

    7E: Five different damaging spells (with one healing the caster), one hex, and the obligatory 'get more magic' spell.

    8E: Five damage spells, two hexes, and the obligatory 'get more magic' spell.

    It's pretty clear that Dark Magic in the army books, certainly from 6E on, is pretty much all 'gather power and use that power to attack something'. It can attack the body, the mind, or the soul, but if your purpose isn't to destroy, Dark Magic just isn't going to help you. Granted, in the fluff, Dark Elven magic can do more than just destroy... but the Dark Elves aren't limited to Dark Magic alone.

    Now, this is just talking about the technical 'Dark Magic' in the Dark Elf army books. Fluffwise, most of the racial-specific lores, including necromancy, the skaven lores, and the Chaos lores, employed Dark Magic to some degree, and some of them have more versatility. However, they're all slanted pretty strongly towards destroying things. In both fluff and crunch, Dark Magic is strongly slanted towards destruction.
    It's also got hexing, which is flexibility :\ so... Say all you want, but almost all magic in the game is about destruction or support (and the support lores are definitely for unlife / life rather than High magic...)

    The thing is the hexes were really good on TT anyways.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,045
    edited August 2017

    Draxynnic said:

    Seldkam said:

    Pretty debatable bro. Dark magic in the lore + army books is pretty damn flexible.

    5E: 6/10 spells dish out damage, one is a hex (which covers the comment someone made earlier about attacking the mind rather than the body), one is a teleport (most lores had one of those in 5E), one is, weirdly enough, Transformation of Kadon, and one is the obligatory 'get more magic' spell. Note that in 5E, Dark Magic wasn't an exclusively Dark Elven lore, but was also available to Chaos and Undead. This is also an edition where Light Magic worked completely differently to how it did in 6E and beyond, so its safe to say that the lores weren't really 'set' in their behaviour yet.

    6E: Four direct damage spells (with one healing the caster), one hex, and one mind control spell.

    7E: Five different damaging spells (with one healing the caster), one hex, and the obligatory 'get more magic' spell.

    8E: Five damage spells, two hexes, and the obligatory 'get more magic' spell.

    It's pretty clear that Dark Magic in the army books, certainly from 6E on, is pretty much all 'gather power and use that power to attack something'. It can attack the body, the mind, or the soul, but if your purpose isn't to destroy, Dark Magic just isn't going to help you. Granted, in the fluff, Dark Elven magic can do more than just destroy... but the Dark Elves aren't limited to Dark Magic alone.

    Now, this is just talking about the technical 'Dark Magic' in the Dark Elf army books. Fluffwise, most of the racial-specific lores, including necromancy, the skaven lores, and the Chaos lores, employed Dark Magic to some degree, and some of them have more versatility. However, they're all slanted pretty strongly towards destroying things. In both fluff and crunch, Dark Magic is strongly slanted towards destruction.
    You missed that one of them heal the caster in 8th edition too soustealer does that :P
    5E too, actually - Soul Drain.

    Point being that it's all attack, attack, attack. The defensive and utility spells just aren't there - the closest things you get is healing by draining life or protecting a unit by sapping the offensive capability of an attacker.

    Which makes it very effective as a battle magic, and off the battlefield, the fluff does hint that there is more that Dark Magic can do... but the most powerful conjurations of High Magic outstrip it. Including the vortex that Game 2 is focused around. :p
  • NemoxNemox Registered Users Posts: 2,708
    it's not what magic you use, it's how you use it! :P.

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