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The amount of Cheats the AI uses... ( List )

ZordrageZordrage Registered Users Posts: 320
edited August 2017 in General Discussion
Just gone arround and checked collected some info...

this list is more for just the Curious people that wanted to know these stuff and obiviously did not know it yet lol....

okay so.

- Building Construction Cost Reduction
- Better Town and Horde Growth
- Less Attritions
- Better/more Tax
- Better Public Order
- Less Unit Upkeep
- Unit Cost Reduction
- Resistance to Occupation
- Increased Item Stealing Chance
- Captives/Enslaves additional Replenishments
- Increased Replenishment Rates
- Leadership Bonus
- Some Battle buffs during combat
- Autoresolve Buffs
- Confederation Bonus
- No cost for occupation

Only i think that this is a little bit ridiculous ?
its like devs started to work on the AI difficulty then half way said Screw this too much work lets just add them ALL the existing cheats possible....

seriously feels like the AI plays a totaly different game then the player....

anyone knows anything else that is missing from the list ?

«1

Comments

  • RodentofDoomRodentofDoom Registered Users Posts: 573
    Check hero actions for actions that de-buff enemy provinces ...
    the AI gets a difficulty based boost that eventually renders those actions useless

    it's either have the above, or the game needs conditional scripts that cover every eventuality
    and that level of scripting is just too time consuming to put together
    plus the more complex the scripting becomes, the easier it gets to build in errors/contradictions that make it innefective
  • ZordrageZordrage Registered Users Posts: 320
    edited August 2017

    Check hero actions for actions that de-buff enemy provinces ...
    the AI gets a difficulty based boost that eventually renders those actions useless

    it's either have the above, or the game needs conditional scripts that cover every eventuality
    and that level of scripting is just too time consuming to put together
    plus the more complex the scripting becomes, the easier it gets to build in errors/contradictions that make it innefective

    its fine if the AI cheats somewhat... nobody expects AIs to be Human level lol so they do need some help...

    but the amount of cheats the AI gets in this game is freaking over the top...

    BTW im using a mod that total disables like 80% of those cheats combined with the Steel Faith mod that makes the AI ALLOT smarter overall.... mostly playing on legendary and it seems prety good this way.... without all the blatant Cheating..

  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,163
    edited August 2017
    Zordrage said:

    Check hero actions for actions that de-buff enemy provinces ...
    the AI gets a difficulty based boost that eventually renders those actions useless

    it's either have the above, or the game needs conditional scripts that cover every eventuality
    and that level of scripting is just too time consuming to put together
    plus the more complex the scripting becomes, the easier it gets to build in errors/contradictions that make it innefective

    its fine if the AI cheats somewhat... nobody expects AIs to be Human level lol so they do need some help...

    but the amount of cheats the AI gets in this game is freaking over the top...

    BTW im using a mod that total disables like 80% of those cheats combined with the Steel Faith mod that makes the AI ALLOT smarter overall.... mostly playing on legendary and it seems prety good this way.... without all the blatant Cheating..

    So, I take it that you are not good enough to beat it on legendary but you wanted the achievements so you turned the difficulty up to legendary then lowered it back to normal/easy with mods so you could win?

    Smh :disappointed:
  • CwenraedCwenraed Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 709
    I do not mind them cheating to stay competitive to the player, there are difficulty levels for a reason.

    What i do not like if they have the ability to do more than they player aka raise a city and carry on moving, i understand they need advantages but not unfair advantages.
    Do not disturb my circles >:)
  • seienchinseienchin Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,572
    CnConrad said:

    Zordrage said:

    Check hero actions for actions that de-buff enemy provinces ...
    the AI gets a difficulty based boost that eventually renders those actions useless

    it's either have the above, or the game needs conditional scripts that cover every eventuality
    and that level of scripting is just too time consuming to put together
    plus the more complex the scripting becomes, the easier it gets to build in errors/contradictions that make it innefective

    its fine if the AI cheats somewhat... nobody expects AIs to be Human level lol so they do need some help...

    but the amount of cheats the AI gets in this game is freaking over the top...

    BTW im using a mod that total disables like 80% of those cheats combined with the Steel Faith mod that makes the AI ALLOT smarter overall.... mostly playing on legendary and it seems prety good this way.... without all the blatant Cheating..

    So, I take it that you are not good enough to beat it on legendary but you wanted the achievements so you turned the difficulty up to legendary then lowered it back to normal/easy with mods so you could win?

    Smh :disappointed:
    Dude, thats completely exaggerated and unfair... Legendary still makes the game more difficult even with 20% of the cheats left and the added difficulty to the player like lower public order and saving.
  • DracoknightDracoknight Registered Users Posts: 281
    A few more things i am wondering if they also do:

    Ignoring hero limits
    Ignoring action chance bottom limits (you cant do a action with 5% or less chance of success)
    Especially considering they will do actions back to back even if they fail.

    Nothing is more annoying to have lvl 30 heroes and lords get assassinated by a squad of lvl 3 heroes just because they can keep on trying regardless of chance.
  • caribu91caribu91 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 64
    edited August 2017
    Zordrage said:




    BTW im using a mod that total disables like 80% of those cheats combined with the Steel Faith mod that makes the AI ALLOT smarter overall.... mostly playing on legendary and it seems prety good this way.... without all the blatant Cheating..

    What is the name of this mod?
  • SultschiemSultschiem Registered Users Posts: 2,457
    Its simple:

    If you make the ai too human, it is way too frustrating
    If you make the ai more stupid, it gets too easy
    When you make the ai a bit stupid but make them cheat, you can usually achieve a decent balance between challenging and not too frustrating

    There are mods that make the ai better. Dude...try it. Its frustrating as hell.
  • EK5000EK5000 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 153
    This isn't exactly new, or unique to Total War for that matter.

    My wish is that one day we could specify the bonuses for the AI and the penalties for the player before starting a campaign, like an advanced game setup with tickboxes.

    This could apply to normal - very hard, legendary should stay as it is.
  • endurendur Registered Users Posts: 3,727
    Cwenraed said:

    What i do not like if they have the ability to do more than they player aka raise a city and carry on moving, i understand they need advantages but not unfair advantages.

    I've actually never seen them do that. I see them sack cities if they want to keep on moving. If they raze the city, they are stuck there.


  • SultschiemSultschiem Registered Users Posts: 2,457
    Personally, I think the worst aspect of these cheats are the ones that you can affect with your agents, making them completely usesless to deploy on higher difficulty.

    Need to raid AND sack AND have an agent active to cause a rebellion. Thats dumb as hell.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 4,259
    The worst part of these cheats is that it virtually removes features from the game when you play on hire difficulty.

    Lowering enemy leadership to cause a rebellion - Gone
    Reducing enemy income - Inconsequential
    Diplomacy options - Non-existent
    Try to force attrition on your opponent - Not a problem

    lets say the game provides me with six or so avenues to achieve an advantage over my enemy. Then playing on easy I should be able to win without fully utilizing all the tools at my disposal, on high levels of difficulty I should be forced to utilize all tools in my tool box to win not have five of them removed.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    edited August 2017
    Check out Advanced AI mod, with it you can play often on a lower difficult level than the one you're comfortable with.
    It also lowers the PO order bonus of the AI.

    It's mostly the PO that is non existant. at higher difficulty.
    You can reduce income, the best way is to hit a province with a large income structure. Since their tax rate is higher than a human, you can make lose a lot of money. Since they have upkepp/buy cost reductions, it means even more troops are impacted. For instance, if you destroy a mine that gives them 800 since it they win 150% on VH it means a loss of 1200/turn. But with their reduction it means removing almost 1500 gold worth of troops...


    The diplomacy exist, but in higher difficult, it's harder to shortcut toward amiable relationships and get fast trade/non agresson pacts, then alliances. Consider all AI as more cautious and prone to backstabbing.

    Attrition is slower BUT, on the one hand the AI may not be able to navigate against it as well as human, and it tends to start looking for safe places to replenish. Consider it a deterrent.

    And let's remember what the AI can't do and stuff that is lower than the humans
    • The Ai doesn't disband useless/costly units
    • The AI only destroy building if it doesn't have any unit production at all
    • AI agents earns only half XP from their actions than the player's
    • The AI doesn't currently have any template for skilling up it's lords/heroes. This has to be done by a few mods

  • IlyandirIlyandir Registered Users Posts: 224
    EK5000 said:

    This isn't exactly new, or unique to Total War for that matter.

    My wish is that one day we could specify the bonuses for the AI and the penalties for the player before starting a campaign, like an advanced game setup with tickboxes.

    This could apply to normal - very hard, legendary should stay as it is.

    This is a must for me, not purely because it allows you to tailor the difficulty level but because this type of game setup doesn't have to be limited to hard options of bonuses and debuffs.

    They can be more dynamic (not exhaustive - game design resource is limited) to allow players to create interesting scenarios and victory conditions to mix up how each campaign plays out.
    I can bend minds with my spoon.
  • FrontlinerDeltaFrontlinerDelta Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,549
    This is why I can't stand Total War on anything higher than hard.

    I hate how it turns the every battle into a massive grindfest while enemy low tier infantry suddenly are unbreakable and yours have the morale of goblins.

    It's not interesting, it's just stats being thrown around.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    I hate the VH battle bonus. If the slider did work or better, the batle difficult could be chosen at the start , especially in coop, I would be elated.

    It's not about achievement or saying "I win in legendaty", Just abusing AR, broken units or AI flaws is not what I like to do. In VH, the difference is stupid, espcially if you fight "mirrored" armies, for instance savage orcs vs savage orcs. It's like each equivalent unit will stomp yours in this mode.
  • GettoGeckoGettoGecko Registered Users Posts: 958
    That's not stupid that's whats difficulty is about, choosing that you play from a disadvantageous position and deal with the challenge. It's laughable when the OP set it to legendary and than remove the buffs and debuffs just to turn the game into something between easy and normal, missing the easy player buffs but also disabling the normal AI buffs, if he would be honest and self-reflecting he would choose one of the two difficulties and would get the same results.
    These AI battle buffs are what makes the player using tactics instead of just letting the units clash into each other and winning through passive Lord buffs by watching idly.
  • seienchinseienchin Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,572

    That's not stupid that's whats difficulty is about, choosing that you play from a disadvantageous position and deal with the challenge. It's laughable when the OP set it to legendary and than remove the buffs and debuffs just to turn the game into something between easy and normal, missing the easy player buffs but also disabling the normal AI buffs, if he would be honest and self-reflecting he would choose one of the two difficulties and would get the same results.
    These AI battle buffs are what makes the player using tactics instead of just letting the units clash into each other and winning through passive Lord buffs by watching idly.

    Again - Legendary does not only influence the AI bonus but also the player bonus like public order and the ability to always save. Its not the same as playing normal or easy with regular bonus.

    I agree with your first sentence though - trying to overcome a disadvantageous position but the question is what the "disadvantageous position" actually is and just making everything from the AI take more damage and units that never route is just cheap. Especially seeing how TW basically nerves melee damage extremely with rising difficulty while shooting always does the same damage.

    I will never forget how riddiculous rome 2 and shogun 2 legendary campaigns are in this regard. You can more or less forget fighting in melee but having a whole army of good ranged troops doesnt really (only leadership) change the game no matter if you play legendary or easy.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    edited August 2017
    There is a difference between battle bonus and campaign bonus though. Fighting against superior numbers is one thing, but when units stats are altered, there is a deception at play, meaning engaging a unit against another won't yield the same results than if all things were equal. It also lower the shock factors of aiming for morale rather than kills.

    I've completed a VH/VH campaign with the greenskin and the difference, even if perceptible wasn't damning because I expected my troops to rout earlier and needed more support/buffs/numbers anyway.
    But I've done a couple coop campaigns when in several instances with very similar armies clashing into each other, with both player microing half the units (so a higher micro level than alone) the results were quite infuriating. With early units and not a lot of tactical options, the barrier seems really artificial.

    If what you call tactics involves making the AI not fight with half its units because they chase a lone pistolier or something, well sure they exist, but it's like playing a whole different game. I remember watching videos of legendary shogun playthroughs with the general making all the infantry chase him while they were slaughtered by missile troops.
    Post edited by uriak on
  • VincentNZVincentNZ Registered Users Posts: 953
    Yeah I think this needs to go and the AI should be more variable.

    As of now the strategic AI on the map is **** all the way. They can not build, they can not recruit, they can not disband. They also have perfect knowledge of everything on the campaign map, which is the cause for these frustrating chases.

    The tactical AI is proficient though, with very good micro-management and some tactical decisions. However that stays the same for every difficulty level and every opponent, which makes it easy to trap the AI, as they will always do as expected from them. They just get stat bonuses so that your losses are higher and indeed turns into a grind.

    I think this is an awful system, especially for players like me, who are strategic thinkers more than tactical experts. Yet the game does not allow me to have deep strategies, because a lot of things on the campaign map is either not deep enough or useless. Like many agent actions, or basically anything you do in enemy territory.
    At the same time, my set of tactics is limited and the very good micro-management of the AI frustrates me, as well as the accuracy buffs for ranged units. However I can still win, but the fights are always the same.

    I rather have an AI that knows what it should build to get better units, and that disbands old statetroppers to recruit some greatswords. Also an AI that is tactically variable, but makes mistakes or is a bit slower on the reaction, so that my slower tactical movements are actually rewarded.
  • GettoGeckoGettoGecko Registered Users Posts: 958
    You can also load on legendary and because its rare to have several fights in one turn the only difference is that you have to do the campaign stuff again or do the fighting first before hitting the end of turn button and get the auto save. Turning on the battle realism in lower difficulty would also gives the player that handicap if he wants it on lower difficulty better suited for him.
    There are many "better AI" mods out there which basically lower the difficulty for the players by reducing the PO and attrition for them and altering the AIs value stats so that it attacks more frequently whit armies which can't compete with the player basically giving free wins, xp and money to the player. There is nothing better on these mods its just easier for the players who can't admit that another difficulty would be more sufficient for them.
    I played some Legendary campaigns but because I don't like the battle realism so I mainly play VH, I'm used to having a PO penalty while the AI has no problems with it, that attrition is mainly a handicap for the player and the AI don't suffer much from it, that the AI focus on fighting the player instead of other AIs and that in battle maneuvering is essential instead of just sending unit x against y which should have a stat advantage. Yes the game plays differently from lower difficulties and that's how it should be that's why I made the choice of that difficulty.
    I really hate it when people mod their games easier and than complaining about stuff that is more mod related than difficulty related, for example if someone plays on legendary, disables the AI buffs and start to complain about how easy it is and that he never get attacked because the AI is missing that focus the player input.
    What you called infuriating results is more something about you not being used to fight this way which after a while wouldn't be a problem as you getting used to it and once you learned to play this way the unbuffed battles will become boring as hell for you.
    I also play a lot of coop and we started to play on normal so that my partner getting used to play strategy games, after 2 month we changed it to play on hard because she got the basics and got bored on normal, with Norca we started the first VH campaign together because she wanted a new challenge and she is having a blast right now being able to play on VH even in her solo campaigns and seeing her improvements over the time.
    Its a shame that the latest AI changes made the AI more reckless and wasting whole armies making it vulnerable for the player to take it over afterwards just to cater players who chose inappropriate difficulties and taking away the rewarding feeling to see their own improvements over time.
  • DracoknightDracoknight Registered Users Posts: 281
    The AI in the campagin is actually the thing that shy me away from singleplayer and only focus on the quick battle aspect of things.

    I have always wondered how people can like the campagin as it doesnt feel challenging as you are playing against a AI that is cheating. For me this isnt beating the AI at the game, the AI play a game on their own and you just trod along hoping that the numbers dont stack against you too high.

    For Total War: Warhammer i would give the singleplayer the lowest possible score while its multiplayer is its sole reason to play.

    Even Civilization 2 had more enjoyable AI than this.

    Disclaimer: This is my opinion of the Strategic map, though battle AI is not exactly stellar either, but it does its basic function.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 21,102
    seienchin said:

    CnConrad said:

    Zordrage said:

    Check hero actions for actions that de-buff enemy provinces ...
    the AI gets a difficulty based boost that eventually renders those actions useless

    it's either have the above, or the game needs conditional scripts that cover every eventuality
    and that level of scripting is just too time consuming to put together
    plus the more complex the scripting becomes, the easier it gets to build in errors/contradictions that make it innefective

    its fine if the AI cheats somewhat... nobody expects AIs to be Human level lol so they do need some help...

    but the amount of cheats the AI gets in this game is freaking over the top...

    BTW im using a mod that total disables like 80% of those cheats combined with the Steel Faith mod that makes the AI ALLOT smarter overall.... mostly playing on legendary and it seems prety good this way.... without all the blatant Cheating..

    So, I take it that you are not good enough to beat it on legendary but you wanted the achievements so you turned the difficulty up to legendary then lowered it back to normal/easy with mods so you could win?

    Smh :disappointed:
    Dude, thats completely exaggerated and unfair... Legendary still makes the game more difficult even with 20% of the cheats left and the added difficulty to the player like lower public order and saving.
    If you use mods to lower the difficulty of Legendary you're not actually playing legendary difficulty, you're just playing TWW with mods.
    Thanks CA for working with Epic Games to give us Troy for free!
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    @Dracoknight : have you tried stuff like Celtik's AI mods?

    The AI recruits decent armies and tries to defend and attack more thoroughly. With them I've find that playing a hard difficult is quite a blast. Of course there are still some occasional hiccupts, but that comes mostly from the weird auroresolve strength computation (as the AI attacking you with bad odds, or just ignore the presence of a second army.

    But the strategic AI does make some "smart" moves too. There is whole staying outside your range that infuriates people but it can other things like Sieging a city, then using a second army to attack your troops outside, while your garrisoned troops can't help since they are under siege.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,809
    Amount of cheats the player uses:

    Actually has a brain.

    It's quite ridiculous really. The AI has no chance.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,081
    Zordrage said:

    okay so.

    - Building Construction Cost Reduction
    - Better Town and Horde Growth
    - Less Attritions
    - Better/more Tax
    - Better Public Order
    - Less Unit Upkeep
    - Unit Cost Reduction
    - Resistance to Occupation
    - Increased Item Stealing Chance
    - Captives/Enslaves additional Replenishments
    - Increased Replenishment Rates
    - Leadership Bonus
    - Some Battle buffs during combat
    - Autoresolve Buffs
    - Confederation Bonus
    - No cost for occupation

    Only I think that this is a little bit ridiculous ?
    its like devs started to work on the AI difficulty then half way said Screw this too much work lets just add them ALL the existing cheats possible....

    seriously feels like the AI plays a totally different game then the player....

    Well at least there is no movement cheats, as those are ones of the worse. While the more resources cheats for the AI are basic. The AI had cheated in all Total War games, and the AI is cheating in many other games. 'The AI is a cheating bastard' is an common trope. Did you thought that the AI is smarter on higher difficulties? no, he just cheats more, but at least when you know that, you prepared for that, and not get too upset on yourself if you lose. The AI Attrition cheats likely makes the last Nurgle's 'blessing almost useless, especially on a higher difficulties.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    edited August 2017
    Well the fact is if the game is programmed to actually do the smart moves that stem from the rules, it annoys a large part of the player base.

    Remember the "home movement bonus" mod? It's just the AI that stay away from a stronger army. Then it attacks with two stacks, or attacks you when you're recruiting. Makes people rage.

    Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The incentive to make the way stronger is weak :/
  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,163
    seienchin said:

    CnConrad said:

    Zordrage said:

    Check hero actions for actions that de-buff enemy provinces ...
    the AI gets a difficulty based boost that eventually renders those actions useless

    it's either have the above, or the game needs conditional scripts that cover every eventuality
    and that level of scripting is just too time consuming to put together
    plus the more complex the scripting becomes, the easier it gets to build in errors/contradictions that make it innefective

    its fine if the AI cheats somewhat... nobody expects AIs to be Human level lol so they do need some help...

    but the amount of cheats the AI gets in this game is freaking over the top...

    BTW im using a mod that total disables like 80% of those cheats combined with the Steel Faith mod that makes the AI ALLOT smarter overall.... mostly playing on legendary and it seems prety good this way.... without all the blatant Cheating..

    So, I take it that you are not good enough to beat it on legendary but you wanted the achievements so you turned the difficulty up to legendary then lowered it back to normal/easy with mods so you could win?

    Smh :disappointed:
    Dude, thats completely exaggerated and unfair... Legendary still makes the game more difficult even with 20% of the cheats left and the added difficulty to the player like lower public order and saving.
    No it is not, the only difference between easy and very hard is the amount of cheats the AI gets. If you remove 80% of the ai cheats just play on normal.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    On the battle side it's true, in the campaign it's not because the AI has different "instructions " changing with the difficulty. These are not cheats.

    On Easy/Normal it avoids the player. In Hard/VH/legendary, it attacks the player more than another foe. Some mod removes/weaken this behaviour because it can anti immersive. I remember as beastmen being offed by orion while I was doin my quest in the nordland, FFS!
    Finally it tends to gradually refuses favorable diplomatic options with the difficulty.
  • GettoGeckoGettoGecko Registered Users Posts: 958
    But instead of now having an AI that makes intentional "mistakes" or in other words feed the players with free wins and all the benefits it comes with drastically lowering the strategical part they could have made the AIs and players movement range be always visible with all different movement options allowing the players to counter and outmaneuver AI smarts movements. Ambush and other stances would have been more popular if the players would have been able to understand the AIs movement better.
This discussion has been closed.