Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

High Elves - Where's the love??

16061636566141

Comments

  • AngmirAngmir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,253
    HoneyBun said:

    I ignored this thread for ages. I assumed it was just crying.

    I can see that was a mistake. The community do not just make this much noise for no reason.

    @CA_Duck is a brilliant Dev and a talented MP player. He's an asset to us. He is the Dev most available to the community. But he is also new to this and not that experienced.

    It feels like he has a vision for HE that just isn't coming through in the end. I hope he addresses that now, before release.

    What I have learned with age is that it is ok to make a mistake - just admit it and correct it ASAP

    Same

    Today is the first time I entered this thread.

    But it is just to obvious to let it go now.

    It is like HE and DE units are exacly equal at the start of the game.

    Only that DE cost less

    And once the battle goes on DE get better

    Oh ..... and High Elves go worse.

    Truely proper ballance.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 13,595
    This thread makes me cringe a bit. I used to think that the Dwarf players complained a lot without much reason (though they have some valid points).

    I'll admit that the multiplayer showcase made me reconsider the validity of this thread's purpose... but I also wonder if it isn't more that the High Elves weren't used to their full capabilities. They may need some buffs, but the situation is not nearly as apocalyptic as some are making out.
    -Forum Terms and Conditions: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest
    -Using all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Please don't.
    -The "Spam" flag is not a "disagree" flag. Have a care.
    -...No, no the "Abuse" flag isn't a "disagree" flag either!
    -5.7 Summon a moderator if someone seems to be out of line, or use the report button. Do NOT become another party to misbehaviour
  • MattzoMattzo Member United KingdomRegistered Users Posts: 1,433
    Pretty awful to read this thread. Some people are pathetic. Quite hard to judge things properly on 2 battles, although I was underwhelmed by some High Elf units (PG, WL in particular). Martial prowess is a nice idea, but I don't think it creates the intended effect.

    Anyway, appreciate the responses Duck. HEs will still be my first playthrough for sure.
    "Everything in war is simple. But the simplest thing is difficult."
  • FrontlinerDeltaFrontlinerDelta Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,549
    Canuovea said:

    This thread makes me cringe a bit. I used to think that the Dwarf players complained a lot without much reason (though they have some valid points).

    I'll admit that the multiplayer showcase made me reconsider the validity of this thread's purpose... but I also wonder if it isn't more that the High Elves weren't used to their full capabilities. They may need some buffs, but the situation is not nearly as apocalyptic as some are making out.

    So much this. I'm open to a discussion about them maybe being a little weak.

    But the hyperbole and the stated "goal strength" of HE units by many people in this thread make it hard to have an actual discussion.

    Duck explained why one of his units did poorly (completely surrounded, rear charged, etc) and some doubted whether the HE unit should lose in that situation. I mean, that's bread and butter Total War...if you get rear charged expect it to be painful.
  • mahboi1mahboi1 Member Registered Users Posts: 773
    Mattzo said:

    Pretty awful to read this thread. Some people are pathetic. Quite hard to judge things properly on 2 battles, although I was underwhelmed by some High Elf units (PG, WL in particular). Martial prowess is a nice idea, but I don't think it creates the intended effect.

    Anyway, appreciate the responses Duck. HEs will still be my first playthrough for sure.

    Star dragon breath fails to kill a single enemy, then melts in melee. Pointless whining my boot.
    Sigmar wills it!
  • andus1988andus1988 Registered Users Posts: 198
    Spergler said:

    @andus1988

    It was indeed mentioned in the first HE Battle Lets Play that he is supposed to be a duelist. Duck's comments seem to indicate that they have either refocused him to be a melee expert, or that he is not supposed to be a glass-canon duelist like Karl Franz.

    Either way, at some point, it must be possible to defeat any Lord, even Tyrion. And that kill count indicates to me that he doesn't drop like a fly, but can make the enemy pay.

    true they should all be able to be killed but as we saw him i can't see him stand up to any lord with some ap. from what we have seen so far (which isn't that much i grant you) in my opinion he seems to easy to kill. just sent some ap at him and he'll die easy.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 13,595
    mahboi1 said:

    Mattzo said:

    Pretty awful to read this thread. Some people are pathetic. Quite hard to judge things properly on 2 battles, although I was underwhelmed by some High Elf units (PG, WL in particular). Martial prowess is a nice idea, but I don't think it creates the intended effect.

    Anyway, appreciate the responses Duck. HEs will still be my first playthrough for sure.

    Star dragon breath fails to kill a single enemy, then melts in melee. Pointless whining my boot.
    What was the role of the Star Dragon's breath according to interviews? Massive damage to large targets, not infantry!
    -Forum Terms and Conditions: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest
    -Using all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Please don't.
    -The "Spam" flag is not a "disagree" flag. Have a care.
    -...No, no the "Abuse" flag isn't a "disagree" flag either!
    -5.7 Summon a moderator if someone seems to be out of line, or use the report button. Do NOT become another party to misbehaviour
  • HoneyBunHoneyBun Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,810
    Reading between the lines, CA gave HE to the best player of the 4 - he came last.

    HE struggle to field 1 dragon. LM field 4 dinosaurs.

    HE artillery is weak. Tyrion is a joke. Archers not worth much. Infantry out matched.

    It'll be OK in campaign. HE have a good start and can build a good economy to compensate their weakness. But for players who remember a hard hitting, high cost, highly manoeuvrable army - at launch we'd better just play DE

    40K Total War ... oh go on ... you know you want to.

  • andus1988andus1988 Registered Users Posts: 198
    HoneyBun said:

    Reading between the lines, CA gave HE to the best player of the 4 - he came last.

    HE struggle to field 1 dragon. LM field 4 dinosaurs.

    HE artillery is weak. Tyrion is a joke. Archers not worth much. Infantry out matched.

    It'll be OK in campaign. HE have a good start and can build a good economy to compensate their weakness. But for players who remember a hard hitting, high cost, highly manoeuvrable army - at launch we'd better just play DE

    yeah the only problem there is that a lot of us who remember and love the real high elves generally don't like the DE much do to them being the arch enemy in the lore.

    but from a gameplay perspective i would say you are right
  • MattzoMattzo Member United KingdomRegistered Users Posts: 1,433
    mahboi1 said:

    Mattzo said:

    Pretty awful to read this thread. Some people are pathetic. Quite hard to judge things properly on 2 battles, although I was underwhelmed by some High Elf units (PG, WL in particular). Martial prowess is a nice idea, but I don't think it creates the intended effect.

    Anyway, appreciate the responses Duck. HEs will still be my first playthrough for sure.

    Star dragon breath fails to kill a single enemy, then melts in melee. Pointless whining my boot.
    Did I say it was pointless?

    But there are ways of saying things and reading this thread many people have chosen the wrong one.
    "Everything in war is simple. But the simplest thing is difficult."
  • HoneyBunHoneyBun Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,810
    andus1988 said:

    HoneyBun said:

    Reading between the lines, CA gave HE to the best player of the 4 - he came last.

    HE struggle to field 1 dragon. LM field 4 dinosaurs.

    HE artillery is weak. Tyrion is a joke. Archers not worth much. Infantry out matched.

    It'll be OK in campaign. HE have a good start and can build a good economy to compensate their weakness. But for players who remember a hard hitting, high cost, highly manoeuvrable army - at launch we'd better just play DE

    yeah the only problem there is that a lot of us who remember and love the real high elves generally don't like the DE much do to them being the arch enemy in the lore.

    but from a gameplay perspective i would say you are right
    I sympathise.

    I hope that in time HE will find their feet.

    I'm not good enough to say how - there are too many small problems - but I'm sure that eventually CA will work it out

    40K Total War ... oh go on ... you know you want to.

  • SperglerSpergler Registered Users Posts: 6
    mahboi1 said:


    Star dragon breath fails to kill a single enemy, then melts in melee. Pointless whining my boot.

    Do you consider killing 95 of the enemy, as the dragon did in the first battle, "melting in melee"? That was topped only by one unit of Executioners. Other than that, the dragon would have been the best unit on the field.

    These unit performances have to be seen in context. That dragon was completely isolated and surrounded. If you ignore the context, everything will seem either op or abysmal.

  • chaoslibrarychaoslibrary Registered Users Posts: 17
    mahboi1 said:

    Mattzo said:

    Pretty awful to read this thread. Some people are pathetic. Quite hard to judge things properly on 2 battles, although I was underwhelmed by some High Elf units (PG, WL in particular). Martial prowess is a nice idea, but I don't think it creates the intended effect.

    Anyway, appreciate the responses Duck. HEs will still be my first playthrough for sure.

    Star dragon breath fails to kill a single enemy, then melts in melee. Pointless whining my boot.
    In the Star Dragon Stats topic

    CA_Duck: "The Star Dragon Breath was misused. It can deal massive damage to monsters and their ilk. I spent it on infantry and cavalry that it massively overkills. "
  • IxalIxal Registered Users Posts: 479
    HoneyBun said:

    andus1988 said:

    HoneyBun said:

    Reading between the lines, CA gave HE to the best player of the 4 - he came last.

    HE struggle to field 1 dragon. LM field 4 dinosaurs.

    HE artillery is weak. Tyrion is a joke. Archers not worth much. Infantry out matched.

    It'll be OK in campaign. HE have a good start and can build a good economy to compensate their weakness. But for players who remember a hard hitting, high cost, highly manoeuvrable army - at launch we'd better just play DE

    yeah the only problem there is that a lot of us who remember and love the real high elves generally don't like the DE much do to them being the arch enemy in the lore.

    but from a gameplay perspective i would say you are right
    I sympathise.

    I hope that in time HE will find their feet.

    I'm not good enough to say how - there are too many small problems - but I'm sure that eventually CA will work it out
    Like they worked out the problems with the dwarves?
  • mahboi1mahboi1 Member Registered Users Posts: 773
    Ixal said:

    HoneyBun said:

    andus1988 said:

    HoneyBun said:

    Reading between the lines, CA gave HE to the best player of the 4 - he came last.

    HE struggle to field 1 dragon. LM field 4 dinosaurs.

    HE artillery is weak. Tyrion is a joke. Archers not worth much. Infantry out matched.

    It'll be OK in campaign. HE have a good start and can build a good economy to compensate their weakness. But for players who remember a hard hitting, high cost, highly manoeuvrable army - at launch we'd better just play DE

    yeah the only problem there is that a lot of us who remember and love the real high elves generally don't like the DE much do to them being the arch enemy in the lore.

    but from a gameplay perspective i would say you are right
    I sympathise.

    I hope that in time HE will find their feet.

    I'm not good enough to say how - there are too many small problems - but I'm sure that eventually CA will work it out
    Like they worked out the problems with the dwarves?
    The great book of grudges remains full on that one
    Sigmar wills it!
  • andus1988andus1988 Registered Users Posts: 198
    edited September 2017
    Spergler said:

    mahboi1 said:


    Star dragon breath fails to kill a single enemy, then melts in melee. Pointless whining my boot.

    Do you consider killing 95 of the enemy, as the dragon did in the first battle, "melting in melee"? That was topped only by one unit of Executioners. Other than that, the dragon would have been the best unit on the field.

    These unit performances have to be seen in context. That dragon was completely isolated and surrounded. If you ignore the context, everything will seem either op or abysmal.

    context matters and as you say it was topped by one unit of executioners. but how is the cost between HGE an a star dragon. my guess is that the star dragon is considerably more expensive and therefore not cost effective if a cheaper unit does the job better
  • TranceTrance Registered Users Posts: 73
    Some High Elf units might need slight buffing to be sure, especially the melee infantry. But what's most worrying that I have seen so far is actually the Dark Elves.

    Not Dark Elf stats necessarily, but the ability to combine the murderous prowess with the Cauldron of Blood to create a deathball of doom and gloom that's frankly overpowered.
  • arcticmandalyarcticmandaly Registered Users Posts: 223
    edited September 2017
    andus1988 said:

    Spergler said:

    mahboi1 said:


    Star dragon breath fails to kill a single enemy, then melts in melee. Pointless whining my boot.

    Do you consider killing 95 of the enemy, as the dragon did in the first battle, "melting in melee"? That was topped only by one unit of Executioners. Other than that, the dragon would have been the best unit on the field.

    These unit performances have to be seen in context. That dragon was completely isolated and surrounded. If you ignore the context, everything will seem either op or abysmal.

    context matters and as you say it was topped by one unit of executioners. but how is the cost between HGE an a star dragon. my guess is that the star dragon is considerably more expensive and therefore not cost effective if a cheaper unit does the job better

    It had 93 kills far more than anything else on HE and little below DE one

    Its breathe attack is meant to be used for big expensive units instead of fodder infantry.

    It only died after while because it was surrounded by 4 or 5 top DE units and Mal with no support .

    We also seen the stats of the stats star dragon and its far better than other dragons and as good stated as any other top monster in the game .

    The over reaction to the star dragon is really laughable
  • JastallJastall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,036
    The HEs need some buffs, but I don't think they made that poor a showing. CA_Duck obviously made some pretty severe micro mistakes in both battles, such as tossing his inferior infantry at buffed Executioners with 0 support, letting his Dragon Princes get charged by Cold Ones, losing his Silver Helms early vs the Lizards, and generally taking sub-par engagements all around.

    Considering the Star Dragon wasted its breath on chaff units and spent most of the battle surrounded, that it got 95? kills against a mostly elite army is still pretty good.

    The unit that did seem to grossly underperform are the Phoenix Guard, who basically got beaten by normal Saurus. That just shouldn't happen, a halberd unit that costly should absolutely beat a lower tier mace infantry.
  • chaoslibrarychaoslibrary Registered Users Posts: 17

    andus1988 said:

    Spergler said:

    mahboi1 said:


    Star dragon breath fails to kill a single enemy, then melts in melee. Pointless whining my boot.

    Do you consider killing 95 of the enemy, as the dragon did in the first battle, "melting in melee"? That was topped only by one unit of Executioners. Other than that, the dragon would have been the best unit on the field.

    These unit performances have to be seen in context. That dragon was completely isolated and surrounded. If you ignore the context, everything will seem either op or abysmal.

    context matters and as you say it was topped by one unit of executioners. but how is the cost between HGE an a star dragon. my guess is that the star dragon is considerably more expensive and therefore not cost effective if a cheaper unit does the job better

    It had 93 kills far more than anything else on HE and little below DE one

    Its breathe attack is meant to be used for big expensive units instead of fodder infantry.

    It only died after while because it was surrounded by 4 or 5 top DE units and Mal with no support .

    We also seen the stats of the stats star dragon and its far better than other dragons and as good stated as any other top monster in the game .

    The over reaction to the star dragon is really laughable
    Agree, but...

    This is THEIR game and they don't even know how to use the dragon correctly.

    Sigh.
  • bawzzzbawzzz Registered Users Posts: 103
    I just want to thank CA_Duck for participating and I'd hope that some people read their comment twice before posting. I am definitely worried about the High Elves but there's no need to be agressive towards developers.
    HoneyBun said:

    But for players who remember a hard hitting, high cost, highly manoeuvrable army - at launch we'd better just play DE

    That's the sad part...
    To the credit of this thread, everything turned out to be true.
  • andus1988andus1988 Registered Users Posts: 198

    andus1988 said:

    Spergler said:

    mahboi1 said:


    Star dragon breath fails to kill a single enemy, then melts in melee. Pointless whining my boot.

    Do you consider killing 95 of the enemy, as the dragon did in the first battle, "melting in melee"? That was topped only by one unit of Executioners. Other than that, the dragon would have been the best unit on the field.

    These unit performances have to be seen in context. That dragon was completely isolated and surrounded. If you ignore the context, everything will seem either op or abysmal.

    context matters and as you say it was topped by one unit of executioners. but how is the cost between HGE an a star dragon. my guess is that the star dragon is considerably more expensive and therefore not cost effective if a cheaper unit does the job better

    It had 93 kills far more than anything else on HE and little below DE one

    Its breathe attack is meant to be used for big expensive units instead of fodder infantry.

    It only died after while because it was surrounded by 4 or 5 top DE units and Mal with no support .

    We also seen the stats of the stats star dragon and its far better than other dragons and as good stated as any other top monster in the game .

    The over reaction to the star dragon is really laughable
    all i said was that dragons are not cost effective.

    i think both people and CA are focusing too much on dragons in general because the real power of the HE is their elite infantry which seems very bad at the moment
  • AngmirAngmir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,253
    Trance said:

    Some High Elf units might need slight buffing to be sure, especially the melee infantry. But what's most worrying that I have seen so far is actually the Dark Elves.

    Not Dark Elf stats necessarily, but the ability to combine the murderous prowess with the Cauldron of Blood to create a deathball of doom and gloom that's frankly overpowered.

    Add to it passives from LL and possible buffs with magic.
  • MerarchesMerarches Registered Users Posts: 461
    edited September 2017
    ca_duck made mistakes but he other make big mistakes too.
    in first game he had totaly free breath attacks. malekith on food.
    in second game the half from this round the carno was afk the half of the time.

    and just look the killcount the HE-units get.
    there is something totaly wrong with HE.
    and one big part are the WL he used a lot in both rounds.
    they look they cant defend vs a angy rabbit.

    and by the way, the DP do just a ok job. but nor for this price. same like PG.
    and it looks Pg just would be tanky and nothing more.
    maybe reduce their costs and make higher stats and more expensiv for SM & WL.

    by the way. they HE dont have any reeal good anti large unit. in 6 or 7 eiditon they had multiple wounds.


    and they show with DE what elves could be. so i hope they do justice to HE


    @chaoslibrary: theory and practice are completly different.


    im realy happy that duck talk with us ( yeah late, but they do now!)

    and what ato wrote worrie me a lot at moment
  • CA_DuckCA_Duck Registered Users, CA Staff Posts: 1,510



    Agree, but...

    This is THEIR game and they don't even know how to use the dragon correctly.

    Sigh.

    Knowing what is optimal play and actually performing that in the heat of battle are two completely different things. One requires knowledge, the other requires composure.

    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,655
    edited September 2017
    Glad that developers experience the game before release...

    I want to ask those developers who played,

    It's hard to micro, right?
    Glad that you remove some of ability buttons

    What can you say about battle speed?
    Do you have time to react to certain situations or click fest?

    Thanks if you can answer...
  • bawzzzbawzzz Registered Users Posts: 103
    edited September 2017
    CA_Duck said:

    One requires knowledge, the other requires composure.

    Ahah I can't imagine the pressure :smiley: For the next stream (there will be one, right?), Playing High Elves should be the penalty for one of your colleague.
  • AngmirAngmir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,253
    edited September 2017
    Jastall said:

    The HEs need some buffs, but I don't think they made that poor a showing. CA_Duck obviously made some pretty severe micro mistakes in both battles, such as tossing his inferior infantry at buffed Executioners with 0 support, letting his Dragon Princes get charged by Cold Ones, losing his Silver Helms early vs the Lizards, and generally taking sub-par engagements all around.

    Poor HE infantry was

    2 Spearmen
    2 White Lions
    + Mage
    + Archer unit
    + some remnants of Elyrior reavers

    While that superrior Infantry force of DE that attacked them was

    2 Corsairs
    2 Executioners
    + Cauldron
    + Malekith


    Sure looks like slight advantage to DE - but nothing that should result in insta-wipe.

    But what actualy happened was HE were decimated to under 30% of their strengh, while DE bearly lost anything - remaining at ~85% of their initial strengh. And all of that wihtout Murderous Prowess - that triggered after HE begun full retreat.

    And all of that happened in 15seconds ? 20 maybe ? So quick that Dragon could not fly there in time.

    It wasnt just defeat - it was one sided slaughter, with the Butcher beeing on drug induced rush.
  • mw51630mw51630 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,593
    Look one faction had to lose both games. Watching them, CA-Duck did make some big tactical errors in both matches.

    I will say for multiplayer specifically some of the units do appear overcosted, but not severely so. In campaign it will be absolutely fine, the HE have some tough units (Phoenix Guard).
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,416
    Oh god so much people crying even before the game is out
    andus1988 said:

    Spergler said:

    mahboi1 said:


    Star dragon breath fails to kill a single enemy, then melts in melee. Pointless whining my boot.

    Do you consider killing 95 of the enemy, as the dragon did in the first battle, "melting in melee"? That was topped only by one unit of Executioners. Other than that, the dragon would have been the best unit on the field.

    These unit performances have to be seen in context. That dragon was completely isolated and surrounded. If you ignore the context, everything will seem either op or abysmal.

    context matters and as you say it was topped by one unit of executioners. but how is the cost between HGE an a star dragon. my guess is that the star dragon is considerably more expensive and therefore not cost effective if a cheaper unit does the job better
    There was like 3 DE units, malekith and the hag, plus the dragon was debuffed

    So your point is out

    Dragons are not a mammoth


This discussion has been closed.