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High Elves - Where's the love??

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  • KatarianKatarian Registered Users Posts: 240
    CA_Duck said:

    As for Tyrion's not being predominantly armour-piercing, there were a few factors for this decision:

    1) Tyrion is intended to be extremely hard to kill unless you can beat his defense and bypass his armour through armour-piercing. He's meant to be stick around and deal a lot of damage over time rather than being say a hard-hitting yet fragile character like Karl Franz.

    2) Consistency in regards to weapons and how we convey it. He uses his sword with one hand, which generally translates to non-armour piercing in TW: WH. Exceptions could be done, but in general it is better to maintain some consistency with what you see.

    3) The eternal question of whether the base stats of Legendary Lords should have the bonuses of their equipment baked in and if so to what degree. Sunfang might grant Flaming Attacks and give +3 strength, but should Tyrion start with those bonuses in his base stats? Or is it actually more meaningful to get those buffs through acquiring a legendary item in campaign?

    I'm not opposed to the idea of Tyrion as armour-piercing, but my intention is that he is fun and capable without it. If I fail with that, armour-piercing is likely to be the first port of call.

    If that is the vision for Tyrion it is kind of disappointing. Tyrion, Teclis, and any High Elf characters are literally the least tanky characters in Warhammer, even Goblin characters are tougher in the TT. Karl Franz is tankier then Tyrion to anything other then basic troops. Tyrion is basically a glass cannon murder machine that makes Karl's offensive look like weakling who needs a 105 point magic weapon and a 215 point monster to overcome. As for a single handed sword being non armour piercing for visual consistency who the hell has time to zoom in close enough to see what weapon someone is carrying? If they do they are pausing the game and thus can take the time to actually read the stats on the unit card.


    I guess it the choice of factions for the second game. Choosing four aggressive hard hitting factions doesn't offer that much variety in play style, but if CA wanted a variety of play styles for the factions don't choose these four factions. Don't try and turn what were offensive army/characters on the TT into a defensive ones otherwise why bother paying GW the licensing fees and just make your own generic fantasy stuff up.
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,975
    Martial Prowess is good but the implementation is not good.

    Glad that CA staff experience in actual gameplay.
  • JastalllJastalll Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,252
    Angmir said:

    Jastall said:

    The HEs need some buffs, but I don't think they made that poor a showing. CA_Duck obviously made some pretty severe micro mistakes in both battles, such as tossing his inferior infantry at buffed Executioners with 0 support, letting his Dragon Princes get charged by Cold Ones, losing his Silver Helms early vs the Lizards, and generally taking sub-par engagements all around.

    Poor HE infantry was

    2 Spearmen
    2 White Lions
    + Mage
    + Archer unit
    + some remnants of Elyrior reavers

    2 Corsairs
    2 Executioners
    + Cauldron
    + Malekith


    Sure looks like slight advantage to DE - but nothing that should result in insta-wipe.

    But what actualy happened was HE were decimated to under 30% of their strengh, while DE bearly lost anything - remaining at ~85% of their initial strengh. And all of that wihtout Murderous Prowess - that triggered after HE begun full retreat.

    And all of that happened in 15seconds ? 20 maybe ? So quick that Dragon could not fly there in time.

    It wasnt just defeat - it was one sided slaughter, with the Butcher beeing on drug induced rush.
    3 Executioners and 2 Corsairs vs 3 White Lions and 2 spears, if I recall. And they were buffed by the Cauldron. Also, I think Corsairs and White Lions are relatively similar in cost-effectiveness in TW:WH2, while Executioners are better Greatswords. It's basically the equivalent of pitting Night Goblins and Big'Uns vs Longbeards GW and Hammerers supported by a Runesmith. The latter force is going to win, very decisively.

    Duck had far more funds invested in his cavalry and dragon, but the former got bogged down and charged by Cold Ones (still won, but with too many casualties) and the dragon did good until it was isolated and killed. If you look at the balance of power after the first infantry engagement, it's actually in favor of the HEs because most of their power was in Tyrion, the dragon and their cavalry, which were all misused to some degree.

    I won't deny that HE infantry looks like it could really use some love, but I doubt Duck spent even half as much as his opponent on infantry. So of course he will get smashed if he engages with no support.
  • andus1988andus1988 Registered Users Posts: 198
    Kranox said:

    Oh god so much people crying even before the game is out

    andus1988 said:

    Spergler said:

    mahboi1 said:


    Star dragon breath fails to kill a single enemy, then melts in melee. Pointless whining my boot.

    Do you consider killing 95 of the enemy, as the dragon did in the first battle, "melting in melee"? That was topped only by one unit of Executioners. Other than that, the dragon would have been the best unit on the field.

    These unit performances have to be seen in context. That dragon was completely isolated and surrounded. If you ignore the context, everything will seem either op or abysmal.

    context matters and as you say it was topped by one unit of executioners. but how is the cost between HGE an a star dragon. my guess is that the star dragon is considerably more expensive and therefore not cost effective if a cheaper unit does the job better
    There was like 3 DE units, malekith and the hag, plus the dragon was debuffed

    So your point is out

    Dragons are not a mammoth
    all i said is that dragons are not cost effective which is nothing new in the series. i wouldn't exactly call that crying. if that's your version of crying then it doesn't seem like it takes much
  • bawzzzbawzzz Registered Users Posts: 117
    edited September 2017

    It is not just a show, it is a business.

    Jesus, get off your high horses already. You're not doing any body any favor.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,951
    HoneyBun said:

    I am not sure what people gain from denying this.

    This thread is now 64 pages. I am a HE fan and I ignored it. I pretended it wasn't real. Most decent HE fans surely did as I did.

    The fact is that right now, HE play badly. There is no plus side to their game. Just constant negatives.

    Ultimately we will all buy the game (I already have) and we surely want to play all races. At that point more people are going to notice that currently HE are a poor Empire clone with no hitting power and lots of extra downsides.

    That isn't good for any of us.

    Personally I will play DE first then the others and hope that by the time I play HE they are fixed. I wish no malice to the Devs, I buy everything they sell, I love TW, I am proud of what they have done.

    I am just giving my honest view.

    This. None of their units stand out at all in terms of potential. 100% against their lore and TT portrayal.
  • BrizthomBrizthom Registered Users Posts: 701
    Looks like CA decided to make High Elves as sad as HE fans.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    @CA_Duck just wanted to say that I trust your balancing skills more than the one of the whiny HE fans on this thread.

    It has to do with the fact that you proved able to reach an high level of play in past TW and... you know... the fact that YOU ACTUALLY PLAYED THE GAME!!!!

    So please don't make HE op like those people want them to be and keep up the good work. <3



    Lastly I have to thank you in the behalf of the community that hasn't gone completely mad over some minor info about the HE. Posting in this toxic thread and informing us about the game is quite noble considering how rude and childish many people are acting towards you (and the devs in general) in here.

    I consider that the community is important when it comes to balance, but its role and weight is less important when it doesn't have access to the game and/or is acting irrationally.
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

    god of war

    LIZARDMEN #makelustriagreatagain
    Clan Moulder #masterclan
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,483
    andus1988 said:

    Kranox said:

    Oh god so much people crying even before the game is out

    andus1988 said:

    Spergler said:

    mahboi1 said:


    Star dragon breath fails to kill a single enemy, then melts in melee. Pointless whining my boot.

    Do you consider killing 95 of the enemy, as the dragon did in the first battle, "melting in melee"? That was topped only by one unit of Executioners. Other than that, the dragon would have been the best unit on the field.

    These unit performances have to be seen in context. That dragon was completely isolated and surrounded. If you ignore the context, everything will seem either op or abysmal.

    context matters and as you say it was topped by one unit of executioners. but how is the cost between HGE an a star dragon. my guess is that the star dragon is considerably more expensive and therefore not cost effective if a cheaper unit does the job better
    There was like 3 DE units, malekith and the hag, plus the dragon was debuffed

    So your point is out

    Dragons are not a mammoth
    all i said is that dragons are not cost effective which is nothing new in the series. i wouldn't exactly call that crying. if that's your version of crying then it doesn't seem like it takes much
    Yeah I actually made a post about dragon that need a buff, but its normal that it died there, it was a big mismicro the o ly thing I find weird is that Tyrion died to a couldron wich I dind weird as ****

    But hey I still dont think High elves are bad, there were simply badly used. He was outplayed and didnt put his ressources at the good place , but DE seems a bit op, there infatry seem too tanky for the damage they does


  • MerarchesMerarches Registered Users Posts: 468
    edited September 2017
    Belialxv said:

    @CA_Duck just wanted to say that I trust your balancing skills more than the one of the whiny HE fans on this thread.

    It has to do with the fact that you proved able to reach an high level of play in past TW and... you know... the fact that YOU ACTUALLY PLAYED THE GAME!!!!

    So please don't make HE op like those people want them to be and keep up the good work. <3



    Lastly I have to thank you in the behalf of the community that hasn't gone completely mad over some minor info about the HE. Posting in this toxic thread and informing us about the game is quite noble considering how rude and childish many people are acting towards you (and the devs in general) in here.

    I consider that the community is important when it comes to balance, but its role and weight is less important when it doesn't have access to the game and/or is acting irrationally. </p>

    no one want that HE are OP. but today they show what most HE fans are feared for a very long time. Sure most are not happy after this next HE slaughtering^^

    and sometimey theory and prue stats are not all for balance. and i still have hope that CA doing the right way with HE.
    But so far they show the wrong way for HE.

    and whelan jsut say its still in progres, like a long time for HE. and they never look like they are good or show us a "wow" effect.


    and then ato defend the HE, like: ahh we need just small balance and they are fine.

    i dont know oin english but perhaps some understand it and can transalte it for me:
    hätte, hätte, fahradkette
    (would have, would have, bicycle chain? )

    this is why so many people sad.
  • wothanwothan Registered Users Posts: 164
    Merarches said:

    Belialxv said:

    @CA_Duck just wanted to say that I trust your balancing skills more than the one of the whiny HE fans on this thread.

    It has to do with the fact that you proved able to reach an high level of play in past TW and... you know... the fact that YOU ACTUALLY PLAYED THE GAME!!!!

    So please don't make HE op like those people want them to be and keep up the good work. <3



    Lastly I have to thank you in the behalf of the community that hasn't gone completely mad over some minor info about the HE. Posting in this toxic thread and informing us about the game is quite noble considering how rude and childish many people are acting towards you (and the devs in general) in here.

    I consider that the community is important when it comes to balance, but its role and weight is less important when it doesn't have access to the game and/or is acting irrationally. </p>

    no one want that HE are OP. but today they show what most HE fans are feared for a very long time. Sure most are not happy after this next HE slaughtering^^
    What impressed me was the speed which WL were dispatched, 30 seconds give or take

    I get it that WL arent same tier as Executioners, but they just melted, no time for counterplay or giving support
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,951
    I don't even care if the HE are getting slaughtered. I don't care if they are the weakest of the 4, someone has to be.

    What I hate is that they don't seem like HE. They have none of the defining features of the race. Martial prowess should be in quotations on the unit cards.
  • andus1988andus1988 Registered Users Posts: 198
    i get that there is a tier system in TW but what i don't get is why CA placed the WL in such a low tier. they are the bodyguards of the phoenix king!

    with bodyguards that dies like flies and basically got deleted in the battles. i would not want to be king with those bodyguards that's for sure.

    in TT the WL was much like swordmasters just better at killing big things due to their increased strength. where the swordmasters where good infantry killers

  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Registered Users Posts: 1,999
    Katarian said:

    CA_Duck said:

    As for Tyrion's not being predominantly armour-piercing, there were a few factors for this decision:

    1) Tyrion is intended to be extremely hard to kill unless you can beat his defense and bypass his armour through armour-piercing. He's meant to be stick around and deal a lot of damage over time rather than being say a hard-hitting yet fragile character like Karl Franz.

    2) Consistency in regards to weapons and how we convey it. He uses his sword with one hand, which generally translates to non-armour piercing in TW: WH. Exceptions could be done, but in general it is better to maintain some consistency with what you see.

    3) The eternal question of whether the base stats of Legendary Lords should have the bonuses of their equipment baked in and if so to what degree. Sunfang might grant Flaming Attacks and give +3 strength, but should Tyrion start with those bonuses in his base stats? Or is it actually more meaningful to get those buffs through acquiring a legendary item in campaign?

    I'm not opposed to the idea of Tyrion as armour-piercing, but my intention is that he is fun and capable without it. If I fail with that, armour-piercing is likely to be the first port of call.

    If that is the vision for Tyrion it is kind of disappointing. Tyrion, Teclis, and any High Elf characters are literally the least tanky characters in Warhammer, even Goblin characters are tougher in the TT. Karl Franz is tankier then Tyrion to anything other then basic troops. Tyrion is basically a glass cannon murder machine that makes Karl's offensive look like weakling who needs a 105 point magic weapon and a 215 point monster to overcome. As for a single handed sword being non armour piercing for visual consistency who the hell has time to zoom in close enough to see what weapon someone is carrying? If they do they are pausing the game and thus can take the time to actually read the stats on the unit card.


    I guess it the choice of factions for the second game. Choosing four aggressive hard hitting factions doesn't offer that much variety in play style, but if CA wanted a variety of play styles for the factions don't choose these four factions. Don't try and turn what were offensive army/characters on the TT into a defensive ones otherwise why bother paying GW the licensing fees and just make your own generic fantasy stuff up.
    Tyrion glass cannon? 4+ Ward Save and 2+ when he is at his last Wound. He loses the 2+ when he finally dies but restore his W. Well, the only similar tank mode I've ever seen in the TT was with Sauron in the LOTR game.

    "You stumble about in darkness. There is no light here, no mercy. Naggarond has claimed the souls of better heroes than you."
  • BulanskovichBulanskovich Constanta, RomaniaRegistered Users Posts: 648
    edited September 2017
    First off, we should all stop with the imaginary camps, at times it seems like the forum is a battlefield, where "high elf fans" bicker with "dark elf fans" and annoying people like me who profit off of it for points. It creates an atmosphere of tension that leads to nothing in the end.

    Secondly, we should all stop with the critique on the devs and eachother. Some of you here get too riled up and start calling names or make unnecessary remarks, you know who you are. This too leads to nothing but conflict in the end.

    I ask you to give the who matter a bit of rest, we're still two weeks from release and really the only problem people seem to be having is with stats which can be changed, and will be changed according to the devs, before release.

    My suggestion is to make Martial Prowess active even after the 50% mark, but make it provide offensive bonuses before and defensive bonuses after.


    "Don't leave for tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow." - Will find the author of the quote some other time.
  • Learn2EelLearn2Eel Registered Users Posts: 137
    edited September 2017
    Katarian said:



    If that is the vision for Tyrion it is kind of disappointing. Tyrion, Teclis, and any High Elf characters are literally the least tanky characters in Warhammer, even Goblin characters are tougher in the TT. Karl Franz is tankier then Tyrion to anything other then basic troops. Tyrion is basically a glass cannon murder machine that makes Karl's offensive look like weakling who needs a 105 point magic weapon and a 215 point monster to overcome. As for a single handed sword being non armour piercing for visual consistency who the hell has time to zoom in close enough to see what weapon someone is carrying? If they do they are pausing the game and thus can take the time to actually read the stats on the unit card.


    I guess it the choice of factions for the second game. Choosing four aggressive hard hitting factions doesn't offer that much variety in play style, but if CA wanted a variety of play styles for the factions don't choose these four factions. Don't try and turn what were offensive army/characters on the TT into a defensive ones otherwise why bother paying GW the licensing fees and just make your own generic fantasy stuff up.

    What?

    On the tabletop, Tyrion had a 1+ armour save and a 4+ ward save, increasing to a 2+ ward save against wounds caused by spell damage or Flaming Attacks. He also flat out ignored the first wound that would kill him. He was actually one of the tankiest human-sized characters in the game, however he also combined that with being a an absolute monster in melee.

    Something to note here that a lot of people haven't mentioned, of all the named characters that are currently in both Warhammer: Total War 1 and Warhammer: Total War 2, Tyrion is the only one that was Weapon Skill 10 on the tabletop, and he also happened to be Initiative 10 with Always Strikes First. Basically, he was the single most overall skilled warrior on the tabletop based on a mix of accuracy and speed. He also hit like a tonne of bricks thanks to his Strength 7 attacks. His problem was that you could always take characters that could partially fill his role for much cheaper, and including Tyrion generally precluded you from taking that all-important high level wizard.

    But back to that Weapon Skill 10 thing, this should be represented as Tyrion having one of the highest Melee Attack stats in the game. I've not peeked at his stats yet, but if this isn't represented then I'm going to be highly disappointed. When I say no other existing named character in either Warhammer: Total War game was also Weapon Skill 10, I mean it; Archaon of all people wasn't, Grimgor wasn't, Queek wasn't, Orion wasn't, Belegar and Thorgrim weren't, Vlad wasn't, etc - I could go on and on. Tyrion is the only one that had Weapon Skill 10. Melee Attack represents the chance to hit, correct? He should be right at the top for Melee Attack.

    As for how he plays, he absolutely should have armour piercing by default. The guy struck at Strength 7, meaning even a 1+ armour save (the best possible) was brought down to a lowly 5+ save thanks to armour modifiers, whereas anyone with a 3+ or worse armour save (i.e. 95% of models in the game) got no armour save against him. He was also on the fastest non-flying horse in the game.

    Basically...what they should do with Tyrion is make him as badass as possible but make him super expensive, and that design theory should apply to Elves of all varieties. Honestly, him getting 93 kills despite apparently being in a bad situation (I've not watched the video, hence why I'm not saying anything about game balance) sounds pretty good to me. He should absolutely be a power-house in every respect; he was a well wrought hammer, not a glass cannon or a pure tank, that's why he cost way more than a kitted-out Prince that could only hope to emulate half of what Tyrion was capable of.

    Honestly, what I'm more worried about is Teclis. Teclis was a Level 5 Wizard and the most versatile spell-caster in Warhammer Fantasy. He could pick and choose a single spell from each of the eight Winds of Magic lores, or could be a Loremaster of High Magic. He was a better caster than any of the Slaan by virtue of his Crown of Saphery, and was on par with them if you removed that item from the equation. Basically, it doesn't get much better for spell-casting, especially as you could pull off some incredible combos with him - reduce a units' Strength by 1 via a Lore of Shadow hex, then hit them with the Dwellers' Below causing a Strength test on each model in said unit wherein failure meant instant death. As a pure spellcaster, he's almost unparalleled - the only named character in either Warhammer: Total War game so far that bested him for casting bonuses was Morathi, and even that was based on a random roll. His huge weakness was that he was incredibly easy to kill, making up for his magical supremacy. I'm hoping he is properly represented in the game; if he doesn't have the ability to take spells from multiple different lores like we've seen that the Slaan can, I'll be incredibly disappointed as he's supposed to be on par with them at worst (yes, he was a better wizard than Mazdamundi in the tabletop).

    Just some musings of a fan, I'm not eager to jump into the balance debate until the game is out and we've seen the final build (Whelan already mentioned that High Elves have been improved over the build we saw in that live-stream as it was an older build) but I'm more hoping Creative Assembly does justice to two of the most important characters in Warhammer Fantasy lore - the two are pretty much the "faces" of classic Warhammer, and it'd be a shame if they weren't up to snuff compared to other lords that - both in lore and tabletop - they should be beating down. I'd rather they be highly expensive yet incredibly powerful if it means we get something that accurately represents them. The same logic applies to characters like Malekith and Skreech (if we ever get him) as well as the Greater Daemons among others I could mention.
  • AngmirAngmir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,253
    edited September 2017
    Jastall said:

    Angmir said:

    Jastall said:

    The HEs need some buffs, but I don't think they made that poor a showing. CA_Duck obviously made some pretty severe micro mistakes in both battles, such as tossing his inferior infantry at buffed Executioners with 0 support, letting his Dragon Princes get charged by Cold Ones, losing his Silver Helms early vs the Lizards, and generally taking sub-par engagements all around.

    Poor HE infantry was

    2 Spearmen
    2 White Lions
    + Mage
    + Archer unit
    + some remnants of Elyrior reavers

    2 Corsairs
    2 Executioners
    + Cauldron
    + Malekith


    Sure looks like slight advantage to DE - but nothing that should result in insta-wipe.

    But what actualy happened was HE were decimated to under 30% of their strengh, while DE bearly lost anything - remaining at ~85% of their initial strengh. And all of that wihtout Murderous Prowess - that triggered after HE begun full retreat.

    And all of that happened in 15seconds ? 20 maybe ? So quick that Dragon could not fly there in time.

    It wasnt just defeat - it was one sided slaughter, with the Butcher beeing on drug induced rush.
    3 Executioners and 2 Corsairs vs 3 White Lions and 2 spears, if I recall. And they were buffed by the Cauldron. Also, I think Corsairs and White Lions are relatively similar in cost-effectiveness in TW:WH2, while Executioners are better Greatswords. It's basically the equivalent of pitting Night Goblins and Big'Uns vs Longbeards GW and Hammerers supported by a Runesmith. The latter force is going to win, very decisively.
    It is 2 Execs and 2 WL - one of each was distracted in the side battle

    Cauldron was supporting DE but Mage was supporting HE (I know it is far less) + Archer kept firing durring all of that.

    And no your comparrision to Greenskins and Dwarfs is off.

    White Lions are every bit as elite as Executioners. Basic HE Spearmen are better than DE Spearmen and equal to Corsairs. Even if we assume that Corsairs have been promoted by CA to semi-elite status, and Executioners are 10% stronger than White Lions because CA says so - it is still not drasticly worse engagement.

    More like Orc Boyz + Orc Big Unz vs Dwarf Warriors + Longbeards GW - a fight that would last for minutes without any flanking manovers etc.
  • RandomTagRandomTag Registered Users Posts: 1,479
    Both White Lion and Swordmaster should be tier 4 in campaign but requiring different building combinations. Phoenix Guard definitely should be tier 5. For White Lion, Lv 4 barrack + Lv 4 armory; Swordmaster Lv4 barrack + Lv 4 wizard tower; Phoenix Guard Lv 4 barrack + LV 5 temple (infantry barrack is unlikely to have a tier 5). For lower tier barrack unit such setup could work : Tier 1 Spearmen, Spearmen with Shield (require Lv2 armory), Tier 2 Archer, Archer with light armor (Requires Lv2 armory), Tier 3 Lothern Sea Guard, Lothern Sea Guard with Shield (requires Lv3 armory), Eagle Bolt Thrower (requires Lv3 armory). This way HE basic infantry roster can be properly represented in campaign while HE elite infantry should receive their elite stats without breaking the tier system.

    Of the two guaranteed DLC units, Shadow Warrior should be tier 3, Sisters of Avelorn tier 4
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,788
    I didn't realize Tyrion and Teclis were so incredibly powerful. I knew they were amazing but damn... They sound like they should basically be the best characters in the game. Tyrion definitely needs his AP and to have his stats buffed then. Or atleast just AP.

    Teclis we haven't gotten a really good look at yet though.
  • coffeecake13coffeecake13 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 475
    Krunch said:

    I didn't realize Tyrion and Teclis were so incredibly powerful. I knew they were amazing but damn... They sound like they should basically be the best characters in the game. Tyrion definitely needs his AP and to have his stats buffed then. Or atleast just AP.

    Teclis we haven't gotten a really good look at yet though.

    If you read all 64 pages you would know that the Hi Elves are the most bestest faction in the warhammer universe.
  • GeldorGeldor Registered Users Posts: 1,115

    First off, we should all stop with the imaginary camps, at times it seems like the forum is a battlefield, where "high elf fans" bicker with "dark elf fans" and annoying people like me who profit off of it for points. It creates an atmosphere of tension that leads to nothing in the end.

    Secondly, we should all stop with the critique on the devs and eachother. Some of you here get too riled up and start calling names or make unnecessary remarks, you know who you are. This too leads to nothing but conflict in the end.

    I ask you to give the who matter a bit of rest, we're still two weeks from release and really the only problem people seem to be having is with stats which can be changed, and will be changed according to the devs, before release.

    My suggestion is to make Martial Prowess active even after the 50% mark, but make it provide offensive bonuses before and defensive bonuses after.


    Yup stats can change, but from what we have seen so far, they do haven't changed much for the HE over several iterations. You can also see from the dev replies that they think HE are basically fine.

    Poor Duck is mainly blaming himself, and the only concrete example of a buff are the bolt throwers. Duck also mentioned (also in the past), that SM for example beat Executioners. But from all the stats we have seen, this seems rather unlikely (not saying he is lying (wouldn't make any sense), just wondering how that is possible, especially when Murderous Prowess pops). So I get the feeling that the devs think the HE are in quite a good spot.

    Concerning Martial Prowess - it doesn't look like they are going to make big changes to MP. At this point I think they best thing would to just scrap it totally and give the HE better stats. MP just doesn't look like a fun or fitting mechanic.

    Generally, in case they keep MP, I'd rather HE having a pure offensive bonus above 50%, and nothing special below that threshold. I think that would be the most fitting representation of the TT, and maybe more fun (not sure about the latter though - I think MP always will feel like a time bomb).

    Totally agree with the rest of your post though. Especially, there is no need to complain about Duck's skills. He did also some good stuff, and you could see that he knows the game. I rather have him focus on making the game better, than on leet MP skills to show off HE in streams.

    Those fights were not fun from a HE fan POV, but in general it wasn't bad at all. Especially the first fight was nice.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,213
    edited September 2017
    Learn2Eel said:

    Katarian said:



    If that is the vision for Tyrion it is kind of disappointing. Tyrion, Teclis, and any High Elf characters are literally the least tanky characters in Warhammer, even Goblin characters are tougher in the TT. Karl Franz is tankier then Tyrion to anything other then basic troops. Tyrion is basically a glass cannon murder machine that makes Karl's offensive look like weakling who needs a 105 point magic weapon and a 215 point monster to overcome. As for a single handed sword being non armour piercing for visual consistency who the hell has time to zoom in close enough to see what weapon someone is carrying? If they do they are pausing the game and thus can take the time to actually read the stats on the unit card.


    I guess it the choice of factions for the second game. Choosing four aggressive hard hitting factions doesn't offer that much variety in play style, but if CA wanted a variety of play styles for the factions don't choose these four factions. Don't try and turn what were offensive army/characters on the TT into a defensive ones otherwise why bother paying GW the licensing fees and just make your own generic fantasy stuff up.

    What?

    On the tabletop, Tyrion had a 1+ armour save and a 4+ ward save, increasing to a 2+ ward save against wounds caused by spell damage or Flaming Attacks. He also flat out ignored the first wound that would kill him. He was actually one of the tankiest human-sized characters in the game, however he also combined that with being a an absolute monster in melee.

    Something to note here that a lot of people haven't mentioned, of all the named characters that are currently in both Warhammer: Total War 1 and Warhammer: Total War 2, Tyrion is the only one that was Weapon Skill 10 on the tabletop, and he also happened to be Initiative 10 with Always Strikes First. Basically, he was the single most overall skilled warrior on the tabletop based on a mix of accuracy and speed. He also hit like a tonne of bricks thanks to his Strength 7 attacks. His problem was that you could always take characters that could partially fill his role for much cheaper, and including Tyrion generally precluded you from taking that all-important high level wizard.

    But back to that Weapon Skill 10 thing, this should be represented as Tyrion having one of the highest Melee Attack stats in the game. I've not peeked at his stats yet, but if this isn't represented then I'm going to be highly disappointed. When I say no other existing named character in either Warhammer: Total War game was also Weapon Skill 10, I mean it; Archaon of all people wasn't, Grimgor wasn't, Queek wasn't, Orion wasn't, Belegar and Thorgrim weren't, Vlad wasn't, etc - I could go on and on. Tyrion is the only one that had Weapon Skill 10. Melee Attack represents the chance to hit, correct? He should be right at the top for Melee Attack.

    As for how he plays, he absolutely should have armour piercing by default. The guy struck at Strength 7, meaning even a 1+ armour save (the best possible) was brought down to a lowly 5+ save thanks to armour modifiers, whereas anyone with a 3+ or worse armour save (i.e. 95% of models in the game) got no armour save against him. He was also on the fastest non-flying horse in the game.

    Basically...what they should do with Tyrion is make him as badass as possible but make him super expensive, and that design theory should apply to Elves of all varieties. Honestly, him getting 93 kills despite apparently being in a bad situation (I've not watched the video, hence why I'm not saying anything about game balance) sounds pretty good to me. He should absolutely be a power-house in every respect; he was a well wrought hammer, not a glass cannon or a pure tank, that's why he cost way more than a kitted-out Prince that could only hope to emulate half of what Tyrion was capable of.

    Honestly, what I'm more worried about is Teclis. Teclis was a Level 5 Wizard and the most versatile spell-caster in Warhammer Fantasy. He could pick and choose a single spell from each of the eight Winds of Magic lores, or could be a Loremaster of High Magic. He was a better caster than any of the Slaan by virtue of his Crown of Saphery, and was on par with them if you removed that item from the equation. Basically, it doesn't get much better for spell-casting, especially as you could pull off some incredible combos with him - reduce a units' Strength by 1 via a Lore of Shadow hex, then hit them with the Dwellers' Below causing a Strength test on each model in said unit wherein failure meant instant death. As a pure spellcaster, he's almost unparalleled - the only named character in either Warhammer: Total War game so far that bested him for casting bonuses was Morathi, and even that was based on a random roll. His huge weakness was that he was incredibly easy to kill, making up for his magical supremacy. I'm hoping he is properly represented in the game; if he doesn't have the ability to take spells from multiple different lores like we've seen that the Slaan can, I'll be incredibly disappointed as he's supposed to be on par with them at worst (yes, he was a better wizard than Mazdamundi in the tabletop).

    Just some musings of a fan, I'm not eager to jump into the balance debate until the game is out and we've seen the final build (Whelan already mentioned that High Elves have been improved over the build we saw in that live-stream as it was an older build) but I'm more hoping Creative Assembly does justice to two of the most important characters in Warhammer Fantasy lore - the two are pretty much the "faces" of classic Warhammer, and it'd be a shame if they weren't up to snuff compared to other lords that - both in lore and tabletop - they should be beating down. I'd rather they be highly expensive yet incredibly powerful if it means we get something that accurately represents them. The same logic applies to characters like Malekith and Skreech (if we ever get him) as well as the Greater Daemons among others I could mention.


    Tyrion has WS 9 in 8th edition. Only character i have see with WS and BS 10 is Shadowblade


    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,065


    Learn2Eel said:

    Katarian said:



    If that is the vision for Tyrion it is kind of disappointing. Tyrion, Teclis, and any High Elf characters are literally the least tanky characters in Warhammer, even Goblin characters are tougher in the TT. Karl Franz is tankier then Tyrion to anything other then basic troops. Tyrion is basically a glass cannon murder machine that makes Karl's offensive look like weakling who needs a 105 point magic weapon and a 215 point monster to overcome. As for a single handed sword being non armour piercing for visual consistency who the hell has time to zoom in close enough to see what weapon someone is carrying? If they do they are pausing the game and thus can take the time to actually read the stats on the unit card.


    I guess it the choice of factions for the second game. Choosing four aggressive hard hitting factions doesn't offer that much variety in play style, but if CA wanted a variety of play styles for the factions don't choose these four factions. Don't try and turn what were offensive army/characters on the TT into a defensive ones otherwise why bother paying GW the licensing fees and just make your own generic fantasy stuff up.

    What?

    On the tabletop, Tyrion had a 1+ armour save and a 4+ ward save, increasing to a 2+ ward save against wounds caused by spell damage or Flaming Attacks. He also flat out ignored the first wound that would kill him. He was actually one of the tankiest human-sized characters in the game, however he also combined that with being a an absolute monster in melee.

    Something to note here that a lot of people haven't mentioned, of all the named characters that are currently in both Warhammer: Total War 1 and Warhammer: Total War 2, Tyrion is the only one that was Weapon Skill 10 on the tabletop, and he also happened to be Initiative 10 with Always Strikes First. Basically, he was the single most overall skilled warrior on the tabletop based on a mix of accuracy and speed. He also hit like a tonne of bricks thanks to his Strength 7 attacks. His problem was that you could always take characters that could partially fill his role for much cheaper, and including Tyrion generally precluded you from taking that all-important high level wizard.

    But back to that Weapon Skill 10 thing, this should be represented as Tyrion having one of the highest Melee Attack stats in the game. I've not peeked at his stats yet, but if this isn't represented then I'm going to be highly disappointed. When I say no other existing named character in either Warhammer: Total War game was also Weapon Skill 10, I mean it; Archaon of all people wasn't, Grimgor wasn't, Queek wasn't, Orion wasn't, Belegar and Thorgrim weren't, Vlad wasn't, etc - I could go on and on. Tyrion is the only one that had Weapon Skill 10. Melee Attack represents the chance to hit, correct? He should be right at the top for Melee Attack.

    As for how he plays, he absolutely should have armour piercing by default. The guy struck at Strength 7, meaning even a 1+ armour save (the best possible) was brought down to a lowly 5+ save thanks to armour modifiers, whereas anyone with a 3+ or worse armour save (i.e. 95% of models in the game) got no armour save against him. He was also on the fastest non-flying horse in the game.

    Basically...what they should do with Tyrion is make him as badass as possible but make him super expensive, and that design theory should apply to Elves of all varieties. Honestly, him getting 93 kills despite apparently being in a bad situation (I've not watched the video, hence why I'm not saying anything about game balance) sounds pretty good to me. He should absolutely be a power-house in every respect; he was a well wrought hammer, not a glass cannon or a pure tank, that's why he cost way more than a kitted-out Prince that could only hope to emulate half of what Tyrion was capable of.

    Honestly, what I'm more worried about is Teclis. Teclis was a Level 5 Wizard and the most versatile spell-caster in Warhammer Fantasy. He could pick and choose a single spell from each of the eight Winds of Magic lores, or could be a Loremaster of High Magic. He was a better caster than any of the Slaan by virtue of his Crown of Saphery, and was on par with them if you removed that item from the equation. Basically, it doesn't get much better for spell-casting, especially as you could pull off some incredible combos with him - reduce a units' Strength by 1 via a Lore of Shadow hex, then hit them with the Dwellers' Below causing a Strength test on each model in said unit wherein failure meant instant death. As a pure spellcaster, he's almost unparalleled - the only named character in either Warhammer: Total War game so far that bested him for casting bonuses was Morathi, and even that was based on a random roll. His huge weakness was that he was incredibly easy to kill, making up for his magical supremacy. I'm hoping he is properly represented in the game; if he doesn't have the ability to take spells from multiple different lores like we've seen that the Slaan can, I'll be incredibly disappointed as he's supposed to be on par with them at worst (yes, he was a better wizard than Mazdamundi in the tabletop).

    Just some musings of a fan, I'm not eager to jump into the balance debate until the game is out and we've seen the final build (Whelan already mentioned that High Elves have been improved over the build we saw in that live-stream as it was an older build) but I'm more hoping Creative Assembly does justice to two of the most important characters in Warhammer Fantasy lore - the two are pretty much the "faces" of classic Warhammer, and it'd be a shame if they weren't up to snuff compared to other lords that - both in lore and tabletop - they should be beating down. I'd rather they be highly expensive yet incredibly powerful if it means we get something that accurately represents them. The same logic applies to characters like Malekith and Skreech (if we ever get him) as well as the Greater Daemons among others I could mention.


    Tyrion has WS 9 in 8th edition. Only character i have see with WS and BS 10 is Shadowblade

    Yeah, there's a fight between Tyrion and Shadowblade in the fluff. The only reason Tyrion wasn't turned into swiss cheese was because he was wearing his magic shiny suit.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,213
    Also forgot Teclis is level 4 WIzard both of them are op without adding stuff to them

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • BrizthomBrizthom Registered Users Posts: 701
    I understand where they're going with martial prowess. In TT HE had to win within the first few round or tankier /swarm factions like Orcs would grind them down. So HE had lots of special op rules but you could mess with them if you brought a wizard.
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,065
    Iconic said:

    I understand where they're going with martial prowess. In TT HE had to win within the first few round or tankier /swarm factions like Orcs would grind them down. So HE had lots of special op rules but you could mess with them if you brought a wizard.

    I also get it. But if you're going down that route then HEs would have to be seriously OP in the initial stages. As it is, the bonus they get seems to just keep them in the fight.

    I think the attempt to give the factions characteristic rules is admirable. Just looks like they've mildly cocked this one up.
  • GeldorGeldor Registered Users Posts: 1,115
    Iconic said:

    I understand where they're going with martial prowess. In TT HE had to win within the first few round or tankier /swarm factions like Orcs would grind them down. So HE had lots of special op rules but you could mess with them if you brought a wizard.

    Then why is their special bonus in this game mainly defensive? That's exactly the thing. Besides the stats issues this is the main complain people who liked the HE from the TT have.

    We want this fast moving, hard hitting, but squishy army. At the moment the HE are squishy (even with their defensive boost through MP), but they are somehow supposed to cripple the opponent via their defensive stats.

    And as we could see that worked quite ok against units with **** offensive stats like the Dark Riders. There you could see MP actually doing something, but against anything with semi-good offensive stats, they just melt. Because they don't really hit hard, but even with a high MD, only have mediocre armor and low health. And below 50% they are done. In the last iteration we saw - WL had a MD of 19 without MP for example.
  • Learn2EelLearn2Eel Registered Users Posts: 137
    edited September 2017
    My bad, I was thinking of his Avatar of Khaine incarnation!

    However, the point still stands. From what I can tell, for characters that are currently in Total War: Warhammer, only Archaon has an equal Weapon Skill.

    I just wants the game to reflect rules and that goes for all factions. Nailing the characters is super important, though I have faith in CA based on most of my experience with the first game.
  • wothanwothan Registered Users Posts: 164
    Rewatching the High Elf vs Lizardmen battle and huh

    There was indeed a PG unit fighting against a saurus through the entire match all alone and they did lose
    So I guess thats what people were talking about rather than the other PG unit fighting the saurus + maz + ruination of cities
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 26,809
    az88 said:

    Iconic said:

    I understand where they're going with martial prowess. In TT HE had to win within the first few round or tankier /swarm factions like Orcs would grind them down. So HE had lots of special op rules but you could mess with them if you brought a wizard.

    I also get it. But if you're going down that route then HEs would have to be seriously OP in the initial stages. As it is, the bonus they get seems to just keep them in the fight.

    I think the attempt to give the factions characteristic rules is admirable. Just looks like they've mildly cocked this one up.
    Can you say that when they said the new build (which they weren't playing on) buffs the HE's? It's TW, a SP game, the bar set in TW for MP is so low that I'm confident they'll meet it.
    Hyped for TWW3.

    CA! Cathay has the most potential of any race in TWW by far. More A+ material to design a race from than any other. You can make Cathay the best race in TWW history. I bolieve in you!
This discussion has been closed.