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Mega Campaign - Need for new special settlement system for Wood Elves.

AngmirAngmir Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 1,253
edited September 2017 in General Discussion
Since WH1 was all happenning on relatively small map - Wood Elves campaign was relatively ok as it was. Limiting Wood Elves to only have proper buildings etc in the Athel Loren.

But with Mega Campaign comming to the game - I feel it is no longer suficing way to implement Elves.

After all there will be entire continents without any Athel Loren like settlements. (There might be one at Heart of the Jungle in Southlands)

Not to mention that stacking bonuses from outpost will start to be absolutely OP if they are left like that on even greater map.

Therefore - Wood Elves building system needs to change. And I think CA will change it somehow - it is unavoidable.



Outposts



Leaving individual buildings aside - Lets concentrate on the settlement system for starters.

I still belive that the lev1 outpost system is ok - but I strongly believe that Capital provinces should have access to 2 building slots instead of 1 - and be able to build diffrent kind of buildings than standard outposts.
Important super-cities - like Altdorf, Drakenhof, Karaz-a-Karak etc. should have IMHO 3 building slots.


Amber



Whole Amber mechanic needs to be revised slightly - with less amber beeing used for permanent upkeep of the settlements and Oak of Ages and tech, and more beeing a single time spend.

Amber itself should be acumulative resource instead of a pool like recourse it is now - similar to other WH2 races ritual recourses (like Warpstone). There should be provinces very rich in it same way there are warpstone rich provinces.

For Example Oak of Ages would only consume 2/3/5/8/10 Amber as each turn Upkeep - but instead it will require much more Amber to level it up as a single time only expanse.

Same with technologies - instead of them costing 1 permanent Amber upkeep - make it cost 20 Amber per technology unlock.

This will allow for even relatively small WE faction - spaning only 10-20 settlements to be able to reach campaign objectives and advance their technology/ Oak of Ages.



Expanding the Athel Loren


Ultimatly - all this changes wont fix the initial problem about WE - Athel Loren beeing only 4 real Cities for WE.

Therefore - I believe a Ritual like mechanic should be implemented - where using big quantities of Amber - and similar mechanics as other rituals restrictions - Wood Elves will be able to Grow Athel Loren - expanding the borders of the Forest itself to the neighbouring provinces (they all must be controlled by WE player in order for it to work.

1st stage ritual would cause the closest neighbouring provinces (Queneless, Paravon, Vaults, Gray Mountains) to get more foresty, and making settlements there increase their status to semi-wood elf provinces.
In there WE Player will be able to make normal WE buildings - only to tier 2 hovever.
Their capacity will be incresed too (from 1 to 3 for Small settlements, from 2 to 5 for Provincial Capital settlements)

2nd stage ritual will add some Athel Loren atriction to thouse regions and increase their max tier of buildings to tier 3.

3rd stage will make thouse regions almost etirely like Athel Loren itself, increasing the slots per settlement for Provincial Capital Cities to 7 slots. Also increasing max tier for Provincial Capitals there to tier 4.

4th last stage will finish the expansion of Athel Loren - after that it will be more than double its original size.
Provintial Capitals of Paravon, Karak Izor and Karak Norn will become full fladged Athel Loren like Cities with 11 additional slots and max tier 5 buildings. Other smaller settlements in this belt arround Athel Loren will have 5 extra slots and max tier of 3.

Other Continents

Simmilar ritual could be launched on other continents - first spawning a single Wood Elf Capital City there, and then making it grow to 3-4 surrounding provinces.

I would say thouse new WE Tree Cities on the other continents should only be made in predistined locations.

1 obviously allready is in Heart of the Jungle in Suthlands.

1 more should be erectable in central Lustria (Itza ? )

1 another in middle of Ulthuan (Everqueen Palace)

1 more in Nagarond - probably on the ruins of Dark Elves Capital.


____________________________________________________________________


As usual feel free to coment, speculate, and add on to this idea.

Thanks for your attencion.

Post edited by Angmir on
Tagged:

Comments

  • jhandjhand Registered Users Posts: 409
    I don't hate the idea of expanding Athel Loren, but it really depends on what the WE campaign objective is. Is it the same as 1? Get Oak to 5 and survive? or are the going to have objectives like everyone else?

    if its just survive then they don't need to be in other continents, extremely lore friendly, they only care about Athel Loren.

    if they have objectives I wouldn't mind your system of taking over capitals, or some system like Norsca where they can only conquer certain regions. Forests vs ports.
  • NEARCHOS3#7091NEARCHOS3#7091 Registered Users Posts: 144
    I like the idea of occupying certain settlements and expand them in full WE cities, in different continents of the map, but not expanding the forest. Nevertheless these are very good sugestions Angmir and for my favorite faction.
  • Lord_XelosLord_Xelos Registered Users Posts: 1,806
    I think there should be several "forests" on the map that are basically extension of Ather Loren via worldroots, while every other settlement stays the same - outposts only. This way WE will have several directions to expand, aiming for those ancient forests, while not loosing their unique mechanic that made them interesting in the first place.
  • Skarsnik_De_EmperorSkarsnik_De_Emperor Registered Users Posts: 1,832
    1, My main concern with Wood Elves in campaign was that they do not have strategy depth to prevent enemies to sniper the Oak by just parking outside the forest. This happens mainly from the south-east entrance;

    2, I quite enjoy the amber mechanics as it is now. Being consumed from turn by turn and being unable to be stocked like some fruits is exactly what makes amber so special. I do not really like somehow we invent a fridge and be able to keep the fruit. Besides, the revamp only costs CA extra workloads but no signicant more fun in terms of difficulty, instead it does take away some unique mechanics away by being just another collectiable and stock-able (rite) resources;

    3, I think rites are more about the vortex and vortex in turn is about Chaos. I do not really know at the moment whether I like the mechanics or not and if I like it then to what degree, not to mention that Vortex is not likely in combined map;

    4, I like the concept of getting the Athel Loren to expand (more correctly speaking, to be restored to its reasonable size) because my concern stated in point 1. But as the new climate mechanics is coming soon, I would love to see how things go first. By the way, getting restored at the expense of taking regions from Bretonnia sounds not so cool;

    5, I do not like getting other forest Athel Loren treatment except those locations are lore-mentioned. Alternatively, I would like some impassable forests be opened to Wood Elves access and allow Welf to build outposts there (even a low tier outpost than the current one).
  • lucibuis#6195lucibuis#6195 Registered Users Posts: 7,168
    edited September 2017
    I think outposts need more and better buildings . All occupied regions could be made into magic forests making we basically immune to climate maluses
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • Lord_HenkusLord_Henkus Registered Users Posts: 1,766
    Title of the discussion suggest about a confirmed new feature, while it's not. Please change title pls
    How negative I may sound, game is stil 11 out of 10

    Also, please slow down combat!




  • Commissar_G#7535Commissar_G#7535 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,826
    WE will be fine. They can seed every settlement regardless of climate and can't turn them fully into towns. That makes WE more than unique and interesting enough.
    MarcusLivius: You are indeed a lord of entitlement.
  • GeldorGeldor Registered Users Posts: 1,115
    lucibuis said:

    I think outposts need more and better buildings . All occupied regions could be made into magic forests making we basically immune to climate maluses

    You can have only one or the other. Either they adept the climate system for the WE and give them better buildings everywhere, or they keep the outpost system, which means favorable environment everywhere. All they could do in that case is upgrading the outpost a little bit - maybe to T2 or something like that.

    You can't have favorable climate everywhere and much better buildings for the outposts.

    WE with the same outpost bonuses as in game1 on the mega campaign would be quite hilarious anyway in late game, so they'll likely change the system for them.

    What Angmir mentioned above would look like a good compromise. Some system like that with some T2 or even T3 outposts, but you could make it also work with incorporating the climate system but with other pros and cons for the WE. Woodland can build T3 outposts, grassland T2, uninhabitable T1 or something like that. That would be a bit easier to implement I guess.

    I also like the idea with only one central magic forest area on each continent, that they WE would have to conquer to expand from there. That would fit very well with them.

    It will definitely be interesting to see what they are going to do with the WE on the mega-campaign.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,388
    The thought has crossed my mind that the climate system might well replace the outpost system, with places that make good forests being the most favoured, places where forests can grow but in a more limited fashion being unfavoured, and places where you can't reasonably expect a forest to grow being uninhabitable.

    Having a rite or the like that allows you to convert outposts in a province into full-on settlements could well be another way to do it, as long as a) you control the province, and b) the province is adjacent to one that is already converted. To allow expansion into other continents, there could be strategic locations that can serve as starting points for a new Athel Loren. These might not be just one per continent - one could even re-introduce Laurelorn as a potential such location inside the Empire.
  • Sultschiem#8734Sultschiem#8734 Registered Users Posts: 3,499
    I would simply recommend a system like norsca: conquer faction capitals for a full-fledged settlement with unique bonuses and have unique settlements in or near forests where you can have an enhanced outpost with a bigger garrisson as a retreat-point.
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,166

    I think there should be several "forests" on the map that are basically extension of Ather Loren via worldroots, while every other settlement stays the same - outposts only. This way WE will have several directions to expand, aiming for those ancient forests, while not loosing their unique mechanic that made them interesting in the first place.

    Best part about the whole thread is this user's avatar.
  • lucibuis#6195lucibuis#6195 Registered Users Posts: 7,168
    Geldor said:

    lucibuis said:

    I think outposts need more and better buildings . All occupied regions could be made into magic forests making we basically immune to climate maluses

    You can have only one or the other. Either they adept the climate system for the WE and give them better buildings everywhere, or they keep the outpost system, which means favorable environment everywhere. All they could do in that case is upgrading the outpost a little bit - maybe to T2 or something like that.

    You can't have favorable climate everywhere and much better buildings for the outposts.

    WE with the same outpost bonuses as in game1 on the mega campaign would be quite hilarious anyway in late game, so they'll likely change the system for them.

    What Angmir mentioned above would look like a good compromise. Some system like that with some T2 or even T3 outposts, but you could make it also work with incorporating the climate system but with other pros and cons for the WE. Woodland can build T3 outposts, grassland T2, uninhabitable T1 or something like that. That would be a bit easier to implement I guess.

    I also like the idea with only one central magic forest area on each continent, that they WE would have to conquer to expand from there. That would fit very well with them.

    It will definitely be interesting to see what they are going to do with the WE on the mega-campaign.
    why is that? even if they have favorable climate everywhere, with the outposts they have right now they are still going to be economically very weak compared to everyone else. So they also need some better buildings that give more money, more troops or more garrison.
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • TalosXTalosX Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 151
    Well CA has already stated that the WE cities will be expanded to 12 slots each. They've also mentioned that their are no plans to change the Amber mechanic at this time. That could mean they might look at it later, but I seriously doubt we'll see any changes in the this year. They'll be busy with balancing all the Old World races, and DLC/FLC content (still crossing my fingers for Tomb Kings).

    As for expanding Athel Loren, I'd be willing to bet serious money that this will never happen. CA has tried to stay as close to the lore/TT as they can while maintaining game balance, and expanding Athel Loren directly conflicts with both.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,388
    TalosX said:

    As for expanding Athel Loren, I'd be willing to bet serious money that this will never happen. CA has tried to stay as close to the lore/TT as they can while maintaining game balance, and expanding Athel Loren directly conflicts with both.

    Not really. Athel Loren has been larger in the past, and I don't think there's anything to contradict the possibility of it happening again. It didn't, because the inhabitants weren't really interested in expanding on the whole (those that were being held back by those that weren't), but there's nothing to say it couldn't happen, and TWW is all about things that a particular faction might theoretically be able to do under different leadership.
  • GnarnarGnarnar Registered Users Posts: 21
    How is this mega campaign even going to work for other races?

    So we can play as all the races from the first game in the second game, in single player? So we can get things like counts vs skaven, or Orcs v.s dark elves. Or beastmen vs skaven, Because i actually want to see that i want total warhammer 2 but im not finished with the first game yet and i still wanted to get the beastmen and woodelf dlc for the first game.
  • lucibuis#6195lucibuis#6195 Registered Users Posts: 7,168
    Gnarnar said:

    How is this mega campaign even going to work for other races?

    So we can play as all the races from the first game in the second game, in single player? So we can get things like counts vs skaven, or Orcs v.s dark elves. Or beastmen vs skaven, Because i actually want to see that i want total warhammer 2 but im not finished with the first game yet and i still wanted to get the beastmen and woodelf dlc for the first game.

    my suggestion: keep playing WH1 until you're bored then switch to WH2/mega campaign
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • Itharus#3127Itharus#3127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,387
    Isn't there a "magical forest" climate type in WH2? I'd think WE would be able to make buildings as normal in that climate.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,388
    Itharus said:

    Isn't there a "magical forest" climate type in WH2? I'd think WE would be able to make buildings as normal in that climate.

    There is, but how much of it is there is another question. Besides the Wood Elves, the High Elves and Lizardmen are probably the races you'd most expect to be suitable to that terrain type. I don't know if we've seen what the Lizardmen think of 'magic forest', but for the High Elves it's 'unsuitable'.

    Which means that Avelorn, which is probably the province that you'd think would be most likely to be 'magic forest' outside of the Wood Elven holdings, probably isn't. There's a good chance that the only 'magic forest' climates are those that have Wood Elves already present at the start of the game.
  • GnarnarGnarnar Registered Users Posts: 21
    lucibuis said:

    Gnarnar said:

    How is this mega campaign even going to work for other races?

    So we can play as all the races from the first game in the second game, in single player? So we can get things like counts vs skaven, or Orcs v.s dark elves. Or beastmen vs skaven, Because i actually want to see that i want total warhammer 2 but im not finished with the first game yet and i still wanted to get the beastmen and woodelf dlc for the first game.

    my suggestion: keep playing WH1 until you're bored then switch to WH2/mega campaign


    That sort of doesnt anwser my question, will beastmen and greenskins and empire and counts be playable in the 2nd game or no?
  • lucibuis#6195lucibuis#6195 Registered Users Posts: 7,168
    Gnarnar said:

    lucibuis said:

    Gnarnar said:

    How is this mega campaign even going to work for other races?

    So we can play as all the races from the first game in the second game, in single player? So we can get things like counts vs skaven, or Orcs v.s dark elves. Or beastmen vs skaven, Because i actually want to see that i want total warhammer 2 but im not finished with the first game yet and i still wanted to get the beastmen and woodelf dlc for the first game.

    my suggestion: keep playing WH1 until you're bored then switch to WH2/mega campaign


    That sort of doesnt anwser my question, will beastmen and greenskins and empire and counts be playable in the 2nd game or no?
    Yes, if you own both games you can play every faction in a combined mega campaign, so as orcs you can conquer naggaroth
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • GeldorGeldor Registered Users Posts: 1,115
    Gnarnar said:

    lucibuis said:

    Gnarnar said:

    How is this mega campaign even going to work for other races?

    So we can play as all the races from the first game in the second game, in single player? So we can get things like counts vs skaven, or Orcs v.s dark elves. Or beastmen vs skaven, Because i actually want to see that i want total warhammer 2 but im not finished with the first game yet and i still wanted to get the beastmen and woodelf dlc for the first game.

    my suggestion: keep playing WH1 until you're bored then switch to WH2/mega campaign


    That sort of doesnt anwser my question, will beastmen and greenskins and empire and counts be playable in the 2nd game or no?
    Yes, they will be playable. But not from the start. On the 28th, the game starts with the "Vortex Campaign". In that campaign you can play initially 4 races: Dark Elves, High elves, Lizardman and Skaven. They'll add some other factions too to be playable later, but we do not know which ones yet (although a few are almost 100% confirmed, won't be game1 factions though, but new ones).

    All the factions from game 1 will also be present on the Vortex Campaign, but they aren't playable. You do not have to own game 1 to play the Vortex Campaign.

    A few weeks after 28th (people are guessing 4 to 6), they'll add what they've called so far the "Mega Campaign", which is the combination of both central campaign maps of game one and two - "Grand Campaign" and "Vortex Campaign" - into one big map, where you can play all the playable factions from both games sandbox style, if you own both games.
  • GnarnarGnarnar Registered Users Posts: 21
    Geldor said:

    Gnarnar said:

    lucibuis said:

    Gnarnar said:

    How is this mega campaign even going to work for other races?

    So we can play as all the races from the first game in the second game, in single player? So we can get things like counts vs skaven, or Orcs v.s dark elves. Or beastmen vs skaven, Because i actually want to see that i want total warhammer 2 but im not finished with the first game yet and i still wanted to get the beastmen and woodelf dlc for the first game.

    my suggestion: keep playing WH1 until you're bored then switch to WH2/mega campaign


    That sort of doesnt anwser my question, will beastmen and greenskins and empire and counts be playable in the 2nd game or no?
    Yes, they will be playable. But not from the start. On the 28th, the game starts with the "Vortex Campaign". In that campaign you can play initially 4 races: Dark Elves, High elves, Lizardman and Skaven. They'll add some other factions too to be playable later, but we do not know which ones yet (although a few are almost 100% confirmed, won't be game1 factions though, but new ones).

    All the factions from game 1 will also be present on the Vortex Campaign, but they aren't playable. You do not have to own game 1 to play the Vortex Campaign.

    A few weeks after 28th (people are guessing 4 to 6), they'll add what they've called so far the "Mega Campaign", which is the combination of both central campaign maps of game one and two - "Grand Campaign" and "Vortex Campaign" - into one big map, where you can play all the playable factions from both games sandbox style, if you own both games.

    Oh i see now, I was thinking that the grand campaign and vortex would be happening at the same time or something so its sandbox style with no objective, cool.

    Maybe for FREEDLC perhaps they could make the races from the first game have a vortex campaign?
  • Itharus#3127Itharus#3127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,387
    edited September 2017
    In the WE late game you can pop a full army in 3 turns via Global Recruitment from basically everywhere. Recruitment in Athel Loren is limited to like 3 or 4 units a turn per province. It takes you 4 lords to recruit like you can with global and 1 lord.

    All they should really do is make it so that capital settlements are mildly upgradeable so that you can actually have a decent defense going on. So long as you keep Athel Loren safe... you're pretty much golden anywhere. You can pop a lord from any outpost and then recruit a full stack in 3 turns.
  • TalosXTalosX Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 151
    Draxynnic said:

    TalosX said:

    As for expanding Athel Loren, I'd be willing to bet serious money that this will never happen. CA has tried to stay as close to the lore/TT as they can while maintaining game balance, and expanding Athel Loren directly conflicts with both.

    Not really. Athel Loren has been larger in the past, and I don't think there's anything to contradict the possibility of it happening again. It didn't, because the inhabitants weren't really interested in expanding on the whole (those that were being held back by those that weren't), but there's nothing to say it couldn't happen, and TWW is all about things that a particular faction might theoretically be able to do under different leadership.
    Incorrect. Athel Loren can't expand. Short version is the elves placed the Weystones around the boundary of Athel Loren a very long time ago. Since there construction, Athel Loren hasn't expanded as much as a foot beyond the Weystones. They're so integral to the forests lore, CA felt the need to put them on the campaign map, and surprise, they are the boundary!
  • NeverUseMeBladeNeverUseMeBlade Registered Users Posts: 15
    I like the Idea of having the outpost size be determined by the climate, so settling in suitable climates would give more building options and better defensive holdings while uninhabitable regions would have the normal size. I still think that the WE should keep their main building selection in special zones like athel loren and the spot in the southlands.
  • coffeecake13#9393coffeecake13#9393 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 484
    I agree with the OP. In my opinion the amber system should have always been a resource you collected permanently and spent accordingly. To be tied to concurrent territories of allies or your own outposts creates a situation where you have already permanently spent the amber in the form of upgrading the great oak, tier 5 settlements, and of course technology.

    The system needs to be reworked to a currency and perhaps the outposts either need to be more easy to defend or more economically beneficial.
  • MorkMork Registered Users Posts: 324
    aren`t there existing Wood Elf factions in game 2 (although non-playable)? I saw a faction on the stream yesterday. There is one in the Southlands.

    So,my guess is that these settlements can be build up to a maximum. otherwise, outposts it is.
  • GeldorGeldor Registered Users Posts: 1,115
    TalosX said:

    Draxynnic said:

    TalosX said:

    As for expanding Athel Loren, I'd be willing to bet serious money that this will never happen. CA has tried to stay as close to the lore/TT as they can while maintaining game balance, and expanding Athel Loren directly conflicts with both.

    Not really. Athel Loren has been larger in the past, and I don't think there's anything to contradict the possibility of it happening again. It didn't, because the inhabitants weren't really interested in expanding on the whole (those that were being held back by those that weren't), but there's nothing to say it couldn't happen, and TWW is all about things that a particular faction might theoretically be able to do under different leadership.
    Incorrect. Athel Loren can't expand. Short version is the elves placed the Weystones around the boundary of Athel Loren a very long time ago. Since there construction, Athel Loren hasn't expanded as much as a foot beyond the Weystones. They're so integral to the forests lore, CA felt the need to put them on the campaign map, and surprise, they are the boundary!
    The Asrai don't have to worry much longer about those waystones, they are needed elsewhere and a Waystone Liberation & Restoration Force is already on its way : )


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