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High Elves - Where's the love??

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  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,187
    Ixal said:

    Valkaar said:

    Turin says HE feel underwhelming.

    Geldor said:

    Turin says HE feel underwhelming.




    If that's true it would be pretty much exactly the issues we identified. But let's see.
    This guy Turin, he's a known good player? Not disagree with the guy as I haven't played the game yet, just wondering why there seems to be a high regard for his opinion.
    I think he's more well known as a multiplayer commentator, sort of like HeirofCarthage.

    I'm not saying he's bad. In fact, I'm sure he's quite good, better than most probably. But the top-tier tournament folks are better than he is imo.

    It's more his analysis that his opinion is valued for in my observation.
    So only the #1 TWW player in the world is able to make an educated guess on the HE?
    Of course not.

    In fact, a reasonable argument could be made that the analysis/commentator people are oftentimes BETTER resources to rely on for the state of multiplayer than many elite players, as the elites don't represent most of the community and sometimes can be narrow-minded, arrogant, and boxed into a meta or tournament mindset only when they give their opinion.

    But that's a discussion for another time.

    It's just...his literal question was "is this guy a known good player". I think a fair answer to that is to say he's known more for his commentary than his play.
  • irurobinirurobin Registered Users Posts: 1,826
    edited September 2017

    @Valkaar

    In the data of CA they think DWARFS ARE MID TIER FACTION AND DO FINE. LoL

    In the data of CA they can't see how strong spells such as Net are used. Ended up ignoring the nerf of net for a year.

    Took 2 patches (8months) to nerf Raise Dead.

    I think these are more than enough to say that balance base on those stats are trash.

    Skillful multiplayer players are the most creative players to explore new tactics amd builds. The very opposite of narrow minded.
  • BulanskovichBulanskovich Constanta, RomaniaRegistered Users Posts: 648
    irurobin said:



    @Valkaar

    In the data of CA they think DWARFS ARE MID TIER FACTION AND DO FINE. LoL

    In the data of CA they can't see how strong spells such as Net are used. Ended up ignoring the nerf of net for a year.

    Took 2 patches (8months) to nerf Raise Dead.

    I think these are more than enough to say that balance base on those stats are trash.

    There may be some things that slip, but overall I think the balance is doing good.

    Again overall, that is the goal of balancing, overall balance even at the expense of certain units not following the TT stats or lore 100%.
    "Don't leave for tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow." - Will find the author of the quote some other time.
  • bawzzzbawzzz Registered Users Posts: 117
    Part 2 of LegendOfTotalWar legendary campaign is up:

    Turin says HE feel underwhelming.

    It's way too soon to have a definitive opinion imo.

    On a side note, unless you want the thread closed, stop poking fun @andreii707 @Vanilla_Gorilla @Galvinized_Iron and @GalenHHH because they were once wrong. They are being fine folks lately.
  • VladtheLadVladtheLad Registered Users Posts: 55


    I love that they added special generic Lords. It's so cool. I hope something similar for Teclis happens.
  • kelembriborkelembribor Registered Users Posts: 767
    edited September 2017



    I love that they added special generic Lords. It's so cool. I hope something similar for Teclis happens.

    Usually I complain about High Elves lately but this is awesome, more of these gems would be great.

  • bawzzzbawzzz Registered Users Posts: 117



    I love that they added special generic Lords. It's so cool. I hope something similar for Teclis happens.

    I love it too, a Khoril lookalike.

    Look at this one, perfect cavalery leader.


  • mitthrawnuruodomitthrawnuruodo Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,972
    bawzzz said:

    P
    It's way too soon to have a definitive opinion imo.

    On a side note, unless you want the thread closed, stop poking fun @andreii707 @Vanilla_Gorilla @Galvinized_Iron and @GalenHHH because they were once wrong. They are being fine folks lately.

    I think you have your threads mixed up. This thread was made to discuss the High Elves, not to mock members of the community. Remember who started the "poking fun".
  • CirdanCirdan Registered Users Posts: 790
    edited September 2017



    I love that they added special generic Lords. It's so cool. I hope something similar for Teclis happens.

    Wow, nice catch man. I love that! Hopefully they add more of this.

    Definetly gonna rename him "Korhil".
  • TheOrganKingTheOrganKing Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 990
    Ixal said:

    Canuovea said:

    High Elves seem to be looking very good right now.

    They are looking too good. CA seems to have overtuned them too much, which is rather standard for CA balancing. Hopefully they fix it before Launch.
    Fix what?
    The few MOd we have aeen were far from "stomps" and the AI in the campaign is too stupid to exploit weaknesses.

    Against the AI the spearmen hold very long and archers are very good. But the AI does not understans how MP works and is not targeting units to knock MP off. And one reason why the archers look so good is that no other race has proper archers.

    Balance will generally be a challenge as not only has CA to balance the races within TWW2 both for SP and MP but also needs the same stats then also be balanced acainst all TWW1 races.
    I am pretty sure there will be a lot of unbalanced matchups once all races are playable in MP.
    Of Course their will be a lot of Unbalanced matchups. CA have not particularly good at Balancing in the first place. The point is, that for most Battles that I have seen so far, the HE have been doing far too well for a faction that has only just hit "Just fine" in the eyes of this thread. Which in itself suspicious, since my own experience from the TT tells me that "Just fine"In the eyes of a HE fans usually translates to OP in everyone else's. And some people seem to have taken to the idea that Because CA have decided to buff HE it means that HE were obviously UP, I feel the need to remind you that CA have also Said that Chaos warriors were fine, despite being horribly cost inefective. Said that Chosen were a reasonable counter to Foot Squires. And that they let Devolve get through at Beastmen Launch as a "Reasonable Spell". Just because CA have decided to go along with what you have asked, does not mean you were right.


    So far, even in the early builds where the HE were apparently UP there has been a distinctive lack of the supposed underperformance on the HE's part. The Phoenix Guard that traded equally 1v1 against a Saurus warrior had been hit with the Solar engine before hand. That's a 1400 anti large unit at less then full strength with a -26 MA and -27 MD debuff going toe to toe with a 800 gold Heavy mainline infantry and trading equally. That's not underperformance. The WL were suitably crushed by the Supported DE Excecutioners in the first DE vs HE, and suitably crushed the Saurus warriors in the LM vs HE. The only reason that the LM won that battle was because of 2 near ideal Ruination's of Cities from Mazdamundi. A battle that close should not have happened if the HE were as blatantly UP as Constantly Claimed. If they've actually received anything more then very minor buffs it could very easily mean these units are over performing, and from all the videos I've seen so far that are on the newer build, it definitly leans that way.

    The HE archers long range by itself is not a problem, but alongside their High Arcs it looks like it will become one. So far they seem to be the only archer unit able to Fire over their own troops into melee, which makes them the only archer unit able to sustain their damage output against enemy infantry without the need to micro them into a better position. That's a lot of reward for very little effort, and already we've seen CA return their damage back to what it was on the old build. If that isn't telling of their strengths then I don't know what is.

    In the Newer builds so far, a common choice seems to be the relatively cheap but very effective Tyrion Double Noble goon squad. Which seems far too capable at bringing down important units, while being far too hard to counter. Their Small unit models make shooting them relatively ineffective, their high movespeed means they can easily avoid Anti-Large infantry, and their own high AP and Anti-large attacks means that they will at the very least trade equally against enemy Cav or Monsters. But in all the videos I've seen trade cost effectivly against these targets unless they are miss-microed and completely overwhelmed. What's more, they are the perfect tool for hunting down the other 3 races Support units. The Screaming Bell, Plague Furnace, Cauldron of Blood, Revivification Bastilidon are all slow moving large units, Easy prey for Tyrion and his buddies.

    And this is only some of the things seen so far. Noone has had access to the game long enough to find the really cheesy tactics yet. Now I'm not claiming that HE are Definitely OP, or that any of the others are UP. That is a foolish thing to do when I haven't played the game myself, for I have not been able to test anything out on my own. But so far, everything that I have seen points to the fact that the buffs to the HE from the Old build were largely unwarranted. And that the HE seem to have been over performing ever since. Now I could be wrong, it could simply be that the HE are far easier to play then the other factions, causing them to perform exceptionally well while the few players with access to the game currently take time to learn the other factions. And it's very possible. No need to Micro HE archers, no strong Air force to threaten them on the other 3 factions, nor any easy access to the summoning mechanic. Lots of strong Anti Large to ward Cav and monsters away from said archers. Either way, hopefully CA tunes them back to something more in line with the old build. It is better to have a slightly UP faction that's easy to play then an OP faction that's easy to play. An UP faction that's easy to play can still perform well, an OP faction that's easy to play is overbearing.
    "Chaos strong. Gors strong. Humans, Elves, Dwarf — weak. We win. We fight, we kill, one day we win. One day soon. You — if you lucky, we eat you, make you into part of us, make you better than you, stronger than any of you, stronger than all of you. Once this arm weak, like you. I eat many of your kind, now I strong."
    —Karzog, Beastigor Charioteer.
  • GeldorGeldor Registered Users Posts: 1,115
    edited September 2017
    All other factions are doing fine too when played by a good player. Skaven and Lizardman had no problems taking care of the elf factions they encounter.

    I have no idea how you could think the buffs were unwarranted. HE stats were just way too low for the price tag they had. They are pretty comparable now to other races.

    Of course there might slight adjustments up and down, same is true for the other factions.

    Players who actually played the game like the above mentioned Turin don't seem to agree with you there.
  • mitthrawnuruodomitthrawnuruodo Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,972
    edited September 2017
    Yup. TheOrganKing seems to have only seen the HE playthroughs.

    Every faction playthrough has been similarly easy. Skaven most of all. By that logic all factions in all games in the history of Total War should be nerfed... because you can easily beat the AI with it.

    Stats are the only real basis for balancing, and the stats are fine now. Even a little less than similarly priced units, but I am willing to accept that for Martial Prowess.

    High Elf factions are also suffering from a severe handicap, which some people here are not bothering to consider.Every High Elf player, Tyrion or Teclis, keeps loosing settlements left and right, because they can not afford to maintain a second army. HE have costlier stronger units. Exactly how it should be.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,710
    bawzzz said:



    I love that they added special generic Lords. It's so cool. I hope something similar for Teclis happens.

    I love it too, a Khoril lookalike.

    Look at this one, perfect cavalery leader.


    It looks like they might have been inspired by the 6E Honours system.
  • GalenHHHGalenHHH Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,233

    Yup. TheOrganKing seems to have only seen the HE playthroughs.

    Every faction playthrough has been similarly easy. Skaven most of all. By that logic all factions in all games in the history of Total War should be nerfed... because you can easily beat the AI with it.

    Stats are the only real basis for balancing, and the stats are fine now. Even a little less than similarly priced units, but balanced by Martial Prowess.

    High Elf factions are also suffering from a severe handicap, which some people here are not bothering to consider.

    Every High Elf player, Tyrion or Teclis, keeps loosing settlements left and right, because they can not afford to maintain a second army. HE have costlier stronger units. Exactly how it should be.

    Clearly the FFA doesnt count. ;)
  • SurielSuriel Registered Users Posts: 114



    I love that they added special generic Lords. It's so cool. I hope something similar for Teclis happens.

    Yup I'm naming him Korhil. Would be so cool if he had axe instead of Sword. :)

    PS. Prince is melee specialist and Princess ranged? How does it work?
  • RandomTagRandomTag Registered Users Posts: 1,479
    edited September 2017
    Off topic: Lizardmen Temple Guard in the latesr livestream sucks epically as expected. They failed to take down Rat Ogres in time, resulting in clanrat fodders catching up as reinforcement. That's classical fodder+monster vs halberd matchup. Temple Guard lost as expected. The entire battle starts with power balance of 1:4 favoring Lizardmen but Skaven won in the end.
    So all halberd units still suck in WH2 while Duck insists the current design is fine. Derp.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    Enforest said:

    Don't you love that?

    People on forum: "HE stats seem to be lacking compared to other factions, which contradicts their concept from Lore and ingame perspective";

    Trolls: "LOL stupid HE fanboys!!! stop doomsaying lmao all u do is whining haHAA cringe i'm 12 btw";

    CA: "We admit that HE stats are too low so we are bringing them up";

    Trolls: "B-but... uhhh... duh... um..... haHAA stupid HE fanboys!1!1!".

    Funny how people now think that stats were the only/main complaints that this thread brought.


    It was more about the lack of publicity for the HE and missing the "taste" that HE should have (animations and stats to a lesser degree).


    Stats were always going to change and we knew it (both sides did tbh).
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


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  • AwesomeLionAwesomeLion Member Registered Users Posts: 1,255
    I have to say that I wasn't concerned about the High Elves until I just now read what Turin said about them. The guy is an absolute beast in multiplayer. If he says they are underwhelming, then maybe it might be time to look a bit more harshly at them.

    Then again, even if they are underwhelming at release, it's something CA can fix in due time after.
    Total War: Warhammer <3
  • SakuraHeinzSakuraHeinz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,232

    I have to say that I wasn't concerned about the High Elves until I just now read what Turin said about them. The guy is an absolute beast in multiplayer. If he says they are underwhelming, then maybe it might be time to look a bit more harshly at them.

    Then again, even if they are underwhelming at release, it's something CA can fix in due time after.

    The dawarves are not competitive in multiplayer why should the high elves get an extra change to be.

  • GCRustGCRust Registered Users Posts: 604
    The thing with the High Elves is...should they be a beast, militarily? With their Intrigue focus on the Diplomacy and basically being able to trade agree with everybody, it stands to reason the obvious trade off is going to come on the battlefield.

    From what I've seen from Lionheart and Heir of Carthage, I'd say the High Elves can more then hold their own in battle, but they are by no means a blunt force object...which fits thematically.
  • EnforestEnforest Registered Users Posts: 2,213
    Belialxv said:

    Enforest said:

    Don't you love that?

    People on forum: "HE stats seem to be lacking compared to other factions, which contradicts their concept from Lore and ingame perspective";

    Trolls: "LOL stupid HE fanboys!!! stop doomsaying lmao all u do is whining haHAA cringe i'm 12 btw";

    CA: "We admit that HE stats are too low so we are bringing them up";

    Trolls: "B-but... uhhh... duh... um..... haHAA stupid HE fanboys!1!1!".

    Funny how people now think that stats were the only/main complaints that this thread brought.


    It was more about the lack of publicity for the HE and missing the "taste" that HE should have (animations and stats to a lesser degree).


    Stats were always going to change and we knew it (both sides did tbh).
    I am referring to the last discussion in this thread, never said it was the only one. I already pointed out in my next post though.


    Demand more love for Empire, Greenskins and Beastmen! Playable Middenland with Cult of Ulric! Expanded Beastmen roster with Ghorgon and Jabberslythe! Bring back Black Orcs variants and Orc Big Boss heroes!
  • RandomTagRandomTag Registered Users Posts: 1,479
    @SakuraHeinz First, you misspell the name of the illustrious Dawi! That's a grudge. Second, both Dawi and Asur deserve the justice that is due to them and players expect a proper and functional product. Dawi performance in game 1 is not functional and the lack of rune system cannot be described as proper. Thus the unending Dwarf threads in balance board.
  • AnotonyAnotony Registered Users Posts: 175

    Anotony said:

    I prefer the unique, interesting mechanic which forces the HE to play like they should, but each to their own.

    Well, Marital Prowess might be unique but unique is not always a good thing. Marital Prowess certainly isn’t interesting (in and of itself) and its lore appropriateness is questionable.

    Marital Prowess on tabletop gave the High Elves a potential offensive advantage: an extra rank of models able to make supporting attacks. This advantage applied to both melee and archer units. It’s use depended on how a High Elf player deployed. It was in no way essential for the High Elves to operate effectively.

    The issue that I, and I believe a lot of others have, is that in Total War the rate at which a unit absorbs damage across its entire Health pool is not linear (thanks to Charge Bonuses, Fatigue etc.). In fact, I think if you plotted average damage over time, it would sort of look like an exponential decay graph (plateauing off when a unit breaks).

    Binding a huge buff/debuff from the most important/easiest to observe statistic of all (Health) to, essentially, one statistic (Melee Defence) feels severe, and too easy for an opponent to take advantage of. E.G:
    • If High Elf unit > 50% health: use range, magic, and shock cavalry
    • If High Elf unit < 50% health: use infantry
    It doesn’t take much thought to come up with a potentially more interesting interpretation of Martial Prowess, such as:
    • +6 Melee Defence
    • +2 Melee Attack
    • +25% Charge Resistance
    • +15% Reload Time Reduction
    Obviously, base Melee Defence might need to be increased a little. I still don't think this will make the mechanic great, but it would align with CAs vision, while at the same time not incorporating such a massive drop in Melee Defence.

    I suspect the current version of Martial Prowess might be why it’s seemingly taken CA awhile to balance the High Elves.

    It’s going to be interesting to see how the High Elves are used in Multiplayer matches and how opposing players can use the Martial Prowess debuff to their advantage. The more mobile armies, that are better equipped to dictate when and where engagements happen, may fare better against the High Elves. The health of the High Elves infantry when main lines engage, is going to be a disproportionately large factor in determining how a battle might proceed, especially against the Dark Elves.
    I prefer my trigger for Martial Prowess - it is active as long as a unit is not flanked (i..e after flanking, the third rank now has to look elsewhere and can no longer attack in front). Its more dependent on tactics. I like your bonuses though.
    That's an interesting idea. Although it might put a bit too much emphasis on defensive geometry.

    In multiplayer, with the current Martial Prowess, I expect people to use ranged focus fire on the strongest HE units before attacking in melee.

    Yes, I agree. I think most people were thinking that making the High Elves competitive would involve a change to how Martial Prowess works. Instead, CA seem to have focused on boosting some base stats. Given that Turin’s remarks seem to vindicate the consensus established in this thread, it seems some further adjustments will be needed.

    If the High Elves keep with the same version of Martial Prowess and continue to get some stat boosts in order to be competitive in matchups against factions that have the tools to dictate the terms of engagement, such as the Dark Elves, Bretonnia or the Empire, they might end up being disproportionately strong against factions that might not have those tools, such as the Dwarfs, Chaos, or, even the Vampire Counts.
  • BrakierBrakier Registered Users Posts: 1,555
    of what ive seen of the high elfs i like it alot, my ffirst play is gonna be tyrion and get all of the iland, then act as a power house whit trade and influence.

  • VladtheLadVladtheLad Registered Users Posts: 55
    Just saw this on a stream. Turn 80 ish.

    Tyrion gets his third artifact after all?


  • mitthrawnuruodomitthrawnuruodo Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,972
    edited September 2017
    I dedicate this to people who think High Elves are now overpowered.

    Just saw this on a stream. Turn 80 ish.

    Tyrion gets his third artifact after all?


    That looks like a generic mission. Is Heart of Avelorn a generic artefact then, usable by any lord?
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 27,057
    The HE's can lose a battle, that must mean they're underpowered, just like whenever they win a battle it means they're overpowered.
    Hyped for TWW3.

    CA! Cathay has the most potential of any race in TWW by far. More A+ material to design a race from than any other. You can make Cathay the best race in TWW history. I bolieve in you!
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,896

    I dedicate this to people who think High Elves are now overpowered.



    Just saw this on a stream. Turn 80 ish.

    Tyrion gets his third artifact after all?


    That looks like a generic mission. Is Heart of Avelorn a generic artefact then, usable by any lord?
    The Item itself is not meant to be generic as it's one of Tyrions items from the TT.
    It would be like saying is Ghal Maraz a generic item usable by any lord. If it is though then there's an issue.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,165
    Flags are flying hard and fast in here. They aren't dislike buttons.
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  • GalenHHHGalenHHH Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,233

    I dedicate this to people who think High Elves are now overpowered.



    Just saw this on a stream. Turn 80 ish.

    Tyrion gets his third artifact after all?


    That looks like a generic mission. Is Heart of Avelorn a generic artefact then, usable by any lord?
    The HE lost another battle?Clearly they are UP!!!
    Regrding HoA ...I have to say im conflicted.On one hand that item was Tyrions and should not be equipable by everyone(lorewise).On the other hand....depending on its stats i may give to Gilgalion...
This discussion has been closed.