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High Elf/Lizardmen alliances in the Lore

JellyphasJellyphas Posts: 43Registered Users
I've recently watched a Teclis campaign video of the second game, and one thing that caught my mind was the starting mission assignment. The text mentioned how the Lizardmen were allies to the High Elves at times, but foes more often.

Can anyone explain the times when the Lizardmen and High Elves allied with each other to fight a common enemy in the tabletop lore?

Comments

  • AntfunkAntfunk Posts: 365Registered Users
    To be honest this is one of my biggest personal annoyances. As far as I know it and please correct me if I'm wrong someone but i believe the Slann Mage priests fought Teclis magic which is why he is so good at it and in turn he learnt the humans. That is why it really bugs me that's teclis is at war with the lizardmen as it completely goes against his character and the respect the 2 races have for one another.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,520Registered Users
    Caledor Dragontamer may have been taught by a Slann. Teclis certainly hasn't.

    The exact attitude between the Asur and the Slann has varied across WFB's lifespan. In 8E, though, there are essentially two main components. The first is that the Slann help shore up the Vortex when it's under threat - it's left ambiguous whether the Asur know this, but if any do, Teclis would. The second is that many High Elven settlements on the southern hemisphere are built on ancient Lizardmen places of power, and the Lizardmen actually like this - the Asur keep the location functioning almost as well as a Slann could. As a result, when they can the Lizardmen will act to keep these sited in Asur hands. There's an example, for instance, of the Lizardmen breaking a Druchii siege of the Citadel of Dusk.

    This is, of course, measured against the times they've come to blows over, basically, misunderstandings. The Asur might still be the closest things to allies the Lizardmen have, however.
  • TheOrganKingTheOrganKing Junior Member Posts: 989Registered Users
    There is not really ever a point of an extended alliance between the two races. The Lizardmen follow the Great Plan, or what little of it they can glean from it from all the Ancient Plaques left by the old ones. If the great plan says that to help the elves, then help them they do. If it says to kill them, then kill them they will. In general, What the Great plans says is that the Elves should stay on Ulthuan, and since the Lizardmen have no need to go to Ulthuan themselves, most times the two races meet it will not be on Ulthuan. So the Lizardmen will usually come to the conclusion that the HE should not be were they are, and that they subsequently need to be removed. One way or the other. Hence the Foes more often part.

    The times when the HE and the Lizardmen are allies only happen when the Lizardmen decide that whatever the HE are doing is part of the Great plan, and therefore they should be helped. Such instances are relatively rare, and never last for more then it takes for the HE to complete their appointed task. The Great plan says that the elves need to know magic, The Lizardmen will teach them magic. The Great Plan says that some HE need to be saved, then the Lizardmen will do just that. A good example of this was at the Battle of the Citadal of Dusk. Where a magic Bridge was summoned by the Lizardmen that allowed an army from Itza to cross over to the island, where the HE their were being attacked by the DE. The Lizardmen Army arrived to save the HE from the invading DE, only to have the Lizardmen turn around and march back across the bridge without saying a word to the Surviving HE.

    For the most part, the alliances between the two races are short lived, and the HE don't know what drives them. Occasionally the Lizardmen will help them. More often the lizardmen will attack Them. Sometimes the Lizardmen wont react at all. And that there is no Pattern to what the lizardmen do.
    "Chaos strong. Gors strong. Humans, Elves, Dwarf — weak. We win. We fight, we kill, one day we win. One day soon. You — if you lucky, we eat you, make you into part of us, make you better than you, stronger than any of you, stronger than all of you. Once this arm weak, like you. I eat many of your kind, now I strong."
    —Karzog, Beastigor Charioteer.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,520Registered Users
    edited September 2017
    There were indications in late 6E or so that GW was toying with the idea of a longstanding alliance, with the Asur interdicting treasure hunters going to and from Lustria and returning any plaques they find in the process. They evidently decided against this before the 7E Lizardmen book, though.

    I will note, though, that the 'Elves should only be in Ulthuan' thing was Mazdamundi's revelation in the 7E book, but this is not present in 8E lore, where Mazdamundi has a different revelation - basically that the Lizardmen need to get off their tails and fight Chaos directly if the Great Plan is ever to have a chance to be completed.
    Post edited by Draxynnic on
  • HoneyBunHoneyBun Senior Member Posts: 4,623Registered Users
    Lizardmen only came in in 5th edition.

    I was a HE played at the time. I wholly reject them and revile their lore. They aren't really warhammer.

    All they did was nick HE lore and pretend that it was them and not us who 1. Fought chaos and 2. Were best at magic.

    They are just a badly written imposter race.

    If I am forced to pretend they belong in game then I will be committing froggy genocide.

    I imagine Teclis feels the same.

    They are making an FPS. Who knew a company could have a mid-life crisis ...

  • Learn2EelLearn2Eel Posts: 137Registered Users
    If any race comes close to allying with Lizardmen, it's the High Elves, yes. Both factions are the two most ancient enemies of Chaos in the Warhammer Fantasy world, so it stands to reason both would see the merits of the other. Even so, the Lizardmen don't really see anyone as allies and will attack them at a moment's notice if it is decreed.
  • Fear_The_WolfFear_The_Wolf Posts: 3,264Registered Users
    The point of that little pop up that displays that HE were one time allies to the Lizardmen is a call back to when they fought against the daemon tide at the collapse of the polar gates. Even then, it was an alliance of convenience.

    The Lizardmen as a whole are not political. They have extremely specific, if not seemingly erratic, ways of handling situations and all other races are either helping or in the way. And if said race is in Lustria, 9 times our of 10 that race will be considered in the way. If the game wanted to stay 100% true to lore, the Lizardmen would have neither a diplomacy screen nor a form of public order. But that detracts from the Total War experience. Gotta have a way for lizards to interact with other races outside of, "I really hope this Saurus 20 stack doesn't just randomly decide to kill everyone in x city".
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,520Registered Users
    Eh, the Lizardmen do communicate occasionally, including to form alliances - said alliances are all short-term affairs to complete a specific goal, however.

    One of the 'what-if's of TWW2, however, is what would happen if the Lizardmen did become more active in the wider world - as Mazdamundi was preparing to on the eve of the End Times, but that was too late.
  • Wargol5Wargol5 Posts: 1,289Registered Users
    edited September 2017

    The point of that little pop up that displays that HE were one time allies to the Lizardmen is a call back to when they fought against the daemon tide at the collapse of the polar gates. Even then, it was an alliance of convenience.

    The Lizardmen as a whole are not political. They have extremely specific, if not seemingly erratic, ways of handling situations and all other races are either helping or in the way. And if said race is in Lustria, 9 times our of 10 that race will be considered in the way. If the game wanted to stay 100% true to lore, the Lizardmen would have neither a diplomacy screen nor a form of public order. But that detracts from the Total War experience. Gotta have a way for lizards to interact with other races outside of, "I really hope this Saurus 20 stack doesn't just randomly decide to kill everyone in x city".

    I disagree with no diplomatic option with the lizardmens, it's hard to understand them but it's still possible to trade with them, i suggest you to read the adventures of Marco Columbo in Lustria (well, it's old fluff...), it's fun to see him dealing with skinks who speak in bretonnian language :lol:
  • Fear_The_WolfFear_The_Wolf Posts: 3,264Registered Users
    Wargol5 said:

    The point of that little pop up that displays that HE were one time allies to the Lizardmen is a call back to when they fought against the daemon tide at the collapse of the polar gates. Even then, it was an alliance of convenience.

    The Lizardmen as a whole are not political. They have extremely specific, if not seemingly erratic, ways of handling situations and all other races are either helping or in the way. And if said race is in Lustria, 9 times our of 10 that race will be considered in the way. If the game wanted to stay 100% true to lore, the Lizardmen would have neither a diplomacy screen nor a form of public order. But that detracts from the Total War experience. Gotta have a way for lizards to interact with other races outside of, "I really hope this Saurus 20 stack doesn't just randomly decide to kill everyone in x city".

    I disagree with no diplomatic option with the lizardmens, it's hard to understand them but it's still possible to trade with them, i suggest you to read the adventures of Marco Columbo in Lustria (well, it's old fluff...), it's fun to see him dealing with skinks who speak in bretonnian language :lol:
    Am well familiar. In another thread i even mentioned the possibility of high elf traders. Thing is like any other interaction the Lizards have had, it was a one off rarity that did not last.
  • NemotheelfNemotheelf Posts: 745Registered Users
    Both the Lizardmen and the High Elves share the same long-term goal: defeat Chaos, and of all the factions in the Warhammer world, they're the ones that are the most capable of doing so. This has brought the two factions together when fighting Chaos or other evil forces, but any kind of relationship evaporates after that. Lizardmen follow the Great Plan and hardly ever leave their cities, and the High Elves have little reason to go into Lustria since they have colonies for that already.

    The two factions at best are fair-weather friends. When things are going alright, they're normally amenable with some local trade happening between Lustria and the High Elven colonies planted there, as well as maybe, maybe, some correspondence between the Slann and a selected few loremasters and archmagi. If the Lizardmen get in the High Elves' way however or vice-versa, especially when the Lizardmen think that the High Elves are violating the Great Plan, then they can come to blows, but that's rarely soured relationships since the two races are just so enigmatic to begin with.
  • Coldone666Coldone666 Posts: 620Registered Users
    HoneyBun said:

    Lizardmen only came in in 5th edition.

    I was a HE played at the time. I wholly reject them and revile their lore. They aren't really warhammer.

    All they did was nick HE lore and pretend that it was them and not us who 1. Fought chaos and 2. Were best at magic.

    They are just a badly written imposter race.

    If I am forced to pretend they belong in game then I will be committing froggy genocide.

    I imagine Teclis feels the same.

    Seek help.
  • Fear_The_WolfFear_The_Wolf Posts: 3,264Registered Users
    edited September 2017
    HoneyBun said:

    Lizardmen only came in in 5th edition.

    I was a HE played at the time. I wholly reject them and revile their lore. They aren't really warhammer.

    All they did was nick HE lore and pretend that it was them and not us who 1. Fought chaos and 2. Were best at magic.

    They are just a badly written imposter race.

    If I am forced to pretend they belong in game then I will be committing froggy genocide.

    I imagine Teclis feels the same.

    oh no....its the lucibius of high elves
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 7,785Registered Users
    Lizards were there before, they just weren't fully fleshed out.
  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 10,640Registered Users
    The Lizardmen are not Official Allies to the High Elves in the Lore, but they did help them at times.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 13,478Registered Users, Moderators
    I'd imagine they helped each other more than they hurt.
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