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Why are dragons so weak?

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  • GalenHHHGalenHHH Junior Member Posts: 1,233Registered Users
    irurobin said:

    GalenHHH said:

    irurobin said:

    Low armor + Huge hit box + Slow = Shot to pieces by any kind of missile units.

    Aimming at the corner bug sometimes happen on their breath attack so it all depends ob RNG. My dragons aim for the corner 8 out of 10 times. /__>\

    Attack animation on ground is full of bugs and often can't hit anything and waste a ton of time spinning.

    Use the breath from a units flank.not from their front or behind.
    That is what I did. And my star dragon get the corner 8 out of 10. /__>\
    If you say so.
  • Surge_2Surge_2 Posts: 1,596Registered Users
    They do aim at the corner, the majority of the time. And lord help them if they get hit by an arrow on the way to using the breath, they seem to get hung up and stop at that point.

    Either way, I just finished the Tyrion run, and in watching the final battle replay (which is too easy a fight honestly, I didnt even use the Vortex powers and just walked through it) the dragons (2 Star, 1 Sun) cleaned up. Yeah you have to manage them a bit, but the only thing the HE's dont have to manage is Tyrion, as he enters god mode and kills...everything.

    The only units that touched Tyrion's kill total, were the Dragons.

    Weak? No. Countered by certain things? Yes.
  • GalenHHHGalenHHH Junior Member Posts: 1,233Registered Users
    Surge_2 said:

    They do aim at the corner, the majority of the time. And lord help them if they get hit by an arrow on the way to using the breath, they seem to get hung up and stop at that point.

    Either way, I just finished the Tyrion run, and in watching the final battle replay (which is too easy a fight honestly, I didnt even use the Vortex powers and just walked through it) the dragons (2 Star, 1 Sun) cleaned up. Yeah you have to manage them a bit, but the only thing the HE's dont have to manage is Tyrion, as he enters god mode and kills...everything.

    The only units that touched Tyrion's kill total, were the Dragons.

    Weak? No. Countered by certain things? Yes.

    I cant say i have seen my dragons aim at the corner.Uusually i aim breaths at blobs(moon and sun dragons) or at single targets (star dragons).
  • Surge_2Surge_2 Posts: 1,596Registered Users
    Yeah its gotten to the point where I hope the AI blobs up and then cast it then. If I go after a single unit its a corner shot, easily the majority of the time.

    I dont know, maybe its due to the Star Dragon breath being different? I thought I read that somewhere.
  • GalenHHHGalenHHH Junior Member Posts: 1,233Registered Users
    Surge_2 said:

    Yeah its gotten to the point where I hope the AI blobs up and then cast it then. If I go after a single unit its a corner shot, easily the majority of the time.

    I dont know, maybe its due to the Star Dragon breath being different? I thought I read that somewhere.

    ...Dragon breaths are different based on the dragon.Sun dragon is for chaff.Star for single entities(heroes ,lords carnosaurs etc etc) Moon dragons (and all the rest of the dragons like black,undead ,forest) are jack of all trades kind of deal.
  • Surge_2Surge_2 Posts: 1,596Registered Users
    Do they have different breadth of attack as well? I probably should have tested, as I only made 1 Sun, and the rest I recruited were star dragons :D
  • GalenHHHGalenHHH Junior Member Posts: 1,233Registered Users
    Surge_2 said:

    Do they have different breadth of attack as well? I probably should have tested, as I only made 1 Sun, and the rest I recruited were star dragons :D

    They are supposed to iirc.Sun gets the wide "weak" breath.Star gets the small concetrated one.Moon is in between.
    All 3 are bad news (depending on terrain and targeting) for the AI though.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,919Registered Users
    Dragons are not weak at all.

    Sounds as if you want them incredibly OP.

    Where is the fun and strategy in point and click with dragons then win?

    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • SavageSavantSavageSavant Posts: 176Registered Users
    Lazyking said:

    Something that has annoyed me very much is how weak the dragons are in the Total War series. When my Chaos Lord, a being in lore which should slaughter hundreds of imperial troops by himself sat on a chaos dragon and lost to two squads of imperial swordsmen in custom battle i just facepalmed...

    The dragons in Warhammer 1 was weak as ****, but i had hoped that in Warhammer 2 when the star dragons came they whould be fearsome beasts. But no they arent. I heard so many things in the beginning about how powerfull the S-dragons breath where supposed to be, but when i use it it doese less dmg than an average arty strike.

    Dragons in lore are so powerfull that they are supposed to take care of armies, and in the description the S-dragon are powerful enough to face a greater deamon one VS one. But since the s-dragon are so weak, and when i say weak i mean i dont fear them more than i fear a Hydra or Carnosaur or say a mammoth, it gets me thinking... How weak will the greater deamons be? (The Lord of Change was pathetic in Warhammer 1)

    I know it comes down to balancing, but for lores sake, i would rather have a cap on how many dragons i can have + an insane upkeep and cost than alot of weak dragons thats makes my yawn istead of gape in awe.

    What are you thoughts about the dragons in the game?

    P.S. Im a huge warhammer fan, and knows alot of the lore from Warhammer Fantasy and love to read about it.

    P.S.S. I know mods might fix this or has fixed this, but thats not the point.


    I couldn't agree more!
  • ThatRabidPotatoThatRabidPotato Member Posts: 403Registered Users
    If your dragons are not producing, it's because you're using them wrong. It really is that simple.
  • EmarthEmarth Junior Member Posts: 401Registered Users
    edited October 2017
    Funny thing is that dragons are WAY more powerful than they ever were in the tabletop due to scale. On the tabletop a dragon could be taken down by a block of 50 of pretty much any half decent infantry. "But muh lore" argument hardly applies to anything, every single unit is awesome in the lore (Or very grimdark in case of skaven and certain other low tier units), beacuse the lore is there to sell models.

    "But dragons can fight greater deamons!"

    Yeah Greater Deamons are gonna be balanced too, but still more powerful than TT as well. But send a star dragon against Big Bird and see what happens.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 10,187Registered Users
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?

    GHAL MARAZ IS THE WEAPON OF THE SETTING! YET SOME BRETONNIAN SWORD IS MORE POTENT?! BUFF GHAL MARAZ IN SIGMAR'S NAME!
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 7,122Registered Users
    As much as it is fun to have things that wreck face there comes a point at which things cannot be so much better than something else because everything else then becomes as much obsolete as you can afford to buy and upkeep the better thing. Making for less interesting stacks. Which is already the case.

    Personally I like stacks that are sprinkled with different units of different tiers and roles. That makes for the most fun for me.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • VincentNZVincentNZ Posts: 953Registered Users
    I like them. For DE cav gets phased out by two dragons. They are just plain better at what I need them to do, which is usally taking out arty pieces or block off chariots and cav. On the way they will deal will reduce elite infantry to 66% percent and will do so again when they come back and before they rear charge.

    Just think of the advantages, high speed, high maneuverability, a powerful spell, and they still take quite some damage while also dealing quite a bit.

    When I see the talk here about other monsters there are only the advantages mentioned, not the drawbacks they have. For a Carno that is clearly the rampage. They might be out of the battle for a major amount of time. The bastiladon is a tank, and nothing more, while it takes a lot of damage it will not really take down much with him. The stegadon is a cheaper mammoth, but will get shredded by ranged infantry as well. The hydra is painfully slow and is more designed to rout or be pulled out to regenerate and use the ranged attack before going back in.

    The design philosophy is clear to see for each unit and it all makes sense. You need to use them accordingly to get the most out of it.
    And it needs to work for both the MP and SP as well as for the player and the AI. Imagine a buff to dragons, when AI armies regularly field seven of them.
  • LazykingLazyking Posts: 28Registered Users
    I see alot of comments saying that im using dragons wrong. I am not, i use them very well and they work very well. But its not the issue being discussed here. I think it is silly that a mighty dragon for the sake of balance has been reduced to a specifik task. As much as i would hate to see a Bloodthirster being only good at duelling heroes/Lords/Monsters.

    Also i see some mention the tabletop. I played the tabletop before AOS ruined it all. And if you played it you know that there where balancing shenanigans there also as for an example: Ogres had impact attacks when they charged but a Juggernaut of Khorne didnt. (So a fat dude do but a rhino-monster made of metal dont, que!)

    I was speaking from a lore perspective. Dragons where the sole reason why the Elves had the upper hand in the War of Vengance/War of the Beard.

    It pleases me that this has woked a big debate, as it proves we are very passionate over this game. =)
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 10,187Registered Users
    "I was speaking from a lore perspective. Dragons where the sole reason why the Elves had the upper hand in the War of Vengance/War of the Beard."
    last time i looked Caledor was dead and the Dawi got the Phoenix Crown... "Upper Hand" indeed...
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?

    GHAL MARAZ IS THE WEAPON OF THE SETTING! YET SOME BRETONNIAN SWORD IS MORE POTENT?! BUFF GHAL MARAZ IN SIGMAR'S NAME!
  • LazykingLazyking Posts: 28Registered Users

    "I was speaking from a lore perspective. Dragons where the sole reason why the Elves had the upper hand in the War of Vengance/War of the Beard."
    last time i looked Caledor was dead and the Dawi got the Phoenix Crown... "Upper Hand" indeed...

    Correct, the Dawis resiliens won in the end. There is much to take an account for in that war. Elves only had colonies, which they where hard pressed defending, Then Malekith took time to invade which is why the super arrogant Caledor the II rushed the offence and died for his insolens.

    Dawi didnt have anything to fight dragons with really. They had not invented Cannons yet and their Airships became a failed prototype.

    But if you have read the War of the Beard series you know the details, otherwise do its a great series! :)
  • VincentNZVincentNZ Posts: 953Registered Users
    Yeah but the lore perspective is flawed in terms of game design. I have very limited knowledge about the warhammer lore, but I know that it is a constant story of contradiction. Monsters, people, realms are either immensly strong, immensly weak and inconsistently so. A single person can go from nothing more than a regular guy to a demi-god, and a crazily powerful monster can lay waste to whole cities, but get devastated by a lucky punch or some semi-intelligent trick.

    And then there is the whole discrepancy between the background lore in correlation to the TT over the different editions and balance changes. It is totally inconsistent, therein lies the problem.

    From a game design perspective they did nothing wrong, the best they could actually, they made everything powerful in the right circumstances.
  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Posts: 2,357Registered Users

    I would HATE it if they break the balance just to make the Dragons overpowered.
    It doesn't matter if they would cost a lot or if there was a max capped, I don't want to see a single Unit crushing half an Army... Like I said in another post, this is still a Total War, so we have the typical rock, paper, scissor thing.
    (I never played TT but what I hear even there Monster were not able to defeat hole armies).

    If my opponent in single player has a Dragon in his full stack and I have just a normal balanced army, what should I do? If I understand correctly you want to make this beast so powerful that normal tactics are not working on it. It would be terrible if I was forced to have at least one of such Units in the army to have a counter.

    BTW: Never underestimate Empire Soldiers in the lore! I am currently reading Sword of Vengeance and the soldiers there are still able to hold their own against monstrous enemies once thy have order in their ranks. ;-)

    THE EMPERORS CHAMPION...GOODDAY SIR LUDWIG SCHWARZHELM..
  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Posts: 860Registered Users

    I would HATE it if they break the balance just to make the Dragons overpowered.
    It doesn't matter if they would cost a lot or if there was a max capped, I don't want to see a single Unit crushing half an Army... Like I said in another post, this is still a Total War, so we have the typical rock, paper, scissor thing.
    (I never played TT but what I hear even there Monster were not able to defeat hole armies).

    If my opponent in single player has a Dragon in his full stack and I have just a normal balanced army, what should I do? If I understand correctly you want to make this beast so powerful that normal tactics are not working on it. It would be terrible if I was forced to have at least one of such Units in the army to have a counter.

    BTW: Never underestimate Empire Soldiers in the lore! I am currently reading Sword of Vengeance and the soldiers there are still able to hold their own against monstrous enemies once thy have order in their ranks. ;-)

    THE EMPERORS CHAMPION...GOODDAY SIR LUDWIG SCHWARZHELM..
    The Emperor! Sigmar protects!
  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 10,597Registered Users
    Emarth said:

    Funny thing is that dragons are WAY more powerful than they ever were in the tabletop due to scale. On the tabletop a dragon could be taken down by a block of 50 of pretty much any half decent infantry. "But muh lore" argument hardly applies to anything, every single unit is awesome in the lore (Or very grimdark in case of skaven and certain other low tier units), beacuse the lore is there to sell models.

    "But dragons can fight greater deamons!"

    Yeah Greater Deamons are gonna be balanced too, but still more powerful than TT as well. But send a star dragon against Big Bird and see what happens.

    The thing is that many other big creature and heroes got a bigger multiplier then Dragons, and Dragons are quite overshadowed by them. Also making Dragons good at only one thing, while they clearly good at multiple things is quite silly. Also Lore or not, many people expect Dragons to be very strong, and get disappointed.
  • EmarthEmarth Junior Member Posts: 401Registered Users
    edited October 2017
    They are very strong and dragons arent overshadowed by anything. Beacuse they fly. And what is the "one thing" dragons are good at? With 550 armor piercing weapon strenght, great melee attack and defence stats a breath attack and flying the "one thing" can only possibly be "killing things"
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