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Have the Empire and Dark Elves ever fought any wars/battles?

CowstevepinCowstevepin Registered Users Posts: 6
I've heard about High Elves Vs Dark Elves but apart from pirate raids from the dark elves have there been any actual battles between humans and dark elves?
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  • MortatoMortato Registered Users Posts: 157
    Dark elves have never really attacked anything in any real number outside of ulthuan, they mainly fight High elves and chaos.
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,899
    they raid the empire coast and generally you can assume that in course of the time all races fight each other in battle, thou major "prober" wars are the exception.

    But rather you would see either a constant (like the raids) or a freak accident leading to the battles.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • RandomTagRandomTag Registered Users Posts: 1,479
    DE pirate raiding parties are not that uncommon along the coast of Empire, but there's no full-blown war between Empire and DE, at least not in canon lore.
  • ArstellandaArstellanda Registered Users Posts: 341
    edited November 2017
    Not much with the Empire, but with Tilea and Estalia, it's more than that.

    While with Tilea there wasn't really an "open war" kind of vicissitudes, what happened was that the attacks from the Dark Elves enraged the Tileans to the point where they sent expeditions to hunt the DE down and destroy them, wherever they found them.

    With Estalia it's unclear, to be honest. Estalia did fight the High Elves because the HE wanted to stop them from getting into Lustria, but since both Tilea and Estalia have really strong navies, it is safe to assume that at sea they fought, in one way or another, with the Dark Elves as well.

    Their contacts have been much more frequent in general.
  • IxalIxal Registered Users Posts: 479
    I think I read in the backstory of Marco Colombo that his home city was once raided by Dark Elves.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,599
    I feel like Alberic should get more naval battle bonuses for Bordeleaux as a faction.
  • Fear_The_WolfFear_The_Wolf Registered Users Posts: 3,685
    Dark Elf piracy is felt the warhammer world over. Beyond that its important to remember how relatively small an empire they really are. And how content the average dark elf is just to kill each other. They can launch military actions against the HE but even then those actions are strictly opportunistic in nature, and take years and years of preperation. Theirs a fine balance between the two powers.

    There haven't been any full blown invasions of The Empire by the Dark Elves because there is very little to gain overall. Check the score board. Outside the End Times series the Empire has a pretty good **** track record of putting a stop to imvasions. Even victories that seem pyrric in nature, they bounce back quick. While off the coast DE win, launch an invasion of an Empire province at the wrong time and you have the worlds strongest human force barreling down on you. Dark Elves get crushed, HE have an opportunity to put em down for good, they stand to accomplish nothing. No loreful reason they ever would.

    On that note imma deviate a bit to a classic topic. Why does the Empire have no way of politically uniting until its too late? Empire mechanics......
  • IzzyStradlinIzzyStradlin Senior Member Karaz BrynRegistered Users Posts: 11,132
    edited November 2017
    Yes, a couple of battles. There's actually a Dreadlord out there who beat Karl Franz. But never a full-scale war. The Empire doesn't have the resources for that and the Dark Elves are content with raids.
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  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,900
    Of the two, I'd actually rate the Dark Elves as being more powerful than the Empire, although I'm not 100% sure of that assessment.

    However, druchii foreign policy is pretty much focused on Ulthuan. The Dark Elves will raid coastal Empire settlements for slaves and other resources just like they'll raid anywhere else they'll get the opportunity (which may be less so in Nordland, since Nordland settlements tend to be on high alert by default because of the Norscans). They also tend to act in order to weaken allies of the Asur and/or to drive a wedge between Lothern and its allies - Bretonnia, Cathay, and the Empire have suffered from this, and in the latter case the Dark Elves came disguised as High Elves.

    But when push comes to shove, with the possible exception of being put on the defensive by Chaos, everything Malekith does is directed, whether directly or indirectly, towards conquering Ulthuan. A full-blown invasion of anyone else is an overcommitment of resources that could give the Asur an opportunity.

    Meanwhile, the Empire doesn't have the navy or the spare capacity to attack Naggaroth. The Empire is a big deal in the Old World, but they're not a world player like the Asur and Druchii are.
  • Fear_The_WolfFear_The_Wolf Registered Users Posts: 3,685
    Draxynnic said:

    Of the two, I'd actually rate the Dark Elves as being more powerful than the Empire, although I'm not 100% sure of that assessment.

    You'd be wrong. At least when it comes being able to hold ground. Now it is a given that the High Elves and Dark Elves have a greater naval force. The Elves were world explorers and conquers long before the Empire was a thing. But being able to throw together an army strong enough to stop a world destroying invasion is the Empires bread and butter. The elves haven't been able to muster that up since Aenerion, and maybe Calador.

    But as their high elves own lore points out, the elves arent what they used to be. The civil war itself being partially to blame. The scope of them being "world players" as you pointed out is strictly limited. While they know and can explore more of the world freely, their military influence is extremely limited world wide. Once again, exception to their navies. Every Elf isnt mandated military service by tradition alone. Its a necessity. One that only barely allows them to both act on others in the case of the dark elves, and survive against others in the case of high elves. You think for a moment if the Dark Elves were capable of it they wouldnt take Ulthuan? Not a snowballs chance in hell. Malakith has been angry fist shaking at that Island for thousands of years and failed over and over again. An invasion into the Empire would be met with the same catastrophic failure.

    Getting wrecked by the Dwarves in the war of vengeance, torn into literal thirds by Malakith, and a fading population count has left them rather strained. Teclis knows this, and it is the primary reason he set about creating the College of Magics. It was his intention (originally, changed later as hes kind of a tzeentch grade ****) to pass the torch off to the upcoming Empire.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,900

    Draxynnic said:

    Of the two, I'd actually rate the Dark Elves as being more powerful than the Empire, although I'm not 100% sure of that assessment.

    You'd be wrong. At least when it comes being able to hold ground. Now it is a given that the High Elves and Dark Elves have a greater naval force. The Elves were world explorers and conquers long before the Empire was a thing. But being able to throw together an army strong enough to stop a world destroying invasion is the Empires bread and butter. The elves haven't been able to muster that up since Aenarion, and maybe Caledor.
    I don't think so. Naggaroth has also been hit hard by Chaos a few times, and while the Elves are in decline, they're declining from a point much higher than the Empire ever was, and what Aenarion faced was greater than anything the Empire faced outside of the End Times (and... even that is arguable, to be honest). And for all Ulthuan is described as showing clear signs of a dwindling population, it is still - in the maps in the books if not in Mortal Empires - larger than the Empire (which has large areas dominated by beastmen, forest goblins, and others) before you even consider the remaining colonies, and the Asur citizen levies are, elf to man, superior to the Empire's professional soldiers.

    Furthermore, Ulthuan isn't focused only on surviving against others as you imply. It is, after all, the High Elves that have the spare capacity to send military forces to assist the Empire occasionally. The Empire has, to my knowledge, only sent significant military forces outside the Old World only once, during the Crusades, and that was just hopping over next door... and Bretonnia was the leader of that expedition besides.

    My general ranking of the three is Ulthuan, Naggaroth, Empire (from most to least). The significance of the Empire, however, is that it was the only significant Order power that was on a trajectory to become more powerful over time rather than less, at a time when the Asur were having to admit that they couldn't do everything themselves any more.
  • Wargol5Wargol5 Registered Users Posts: 1,306
    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Of the two, I'd actually rate the Dark Elves as being more powerful than the Empire, although I'm not 100% sure of that assessment.

    You'd be wrong. At least when it comes being able to hold ground. Now it is a given that the High Elves and Dark Elves have a greater naval force. The Elves were world explorers and conquers long before the Empire was a thing. But being able to throw together an army strong enough to stop a world destroying invasion is the Empires bread and butter. The elves haven't been able to muster that up since Aenarion, and maybe Caledor.
    I don't think so. Naggaroth has also been hit hard by Chaos a few times, and while the Elves are in decline, they're declining from a point much higher than the Empire ever was, and what Aenarion faced was greater than anything the Empire faced outside of the End Times (and... even that is arguable, to be honest). And for all Ulthuan is described as showing clear signs of a dwindling population, it is still - in the maps in the books if not in Mortal Empires - larger than the Empire (which has large areas dominated by beastmen, forest goblins, and others) before you even consider the remaining colonies, and the Asur citizen levies are, elf to man, superior to the Empire's professional soldiers.

    Furthermore, Ulthuan isn't focused only on surviving against others as you imply. It is, after all, the High Elves that have the spare capacity to send military forces to assist the Empire occasionally. The Empire has, to my knowledge, only sent significant military forces outside the Old World only once, during the Crusades, and that was just hopping over next door... and Bretonnia was the leader of that expedition besides.

    My general ranking of the three is Ulthuan, Naggaroth, Empire (from most to least). The significance of the Empire, however, is that it was the only significant Order power that was on a trajectory to become more powerful over time rather than less, at a time when the Asur were having to admit that they couldn't do everything themselves any more.
    The Empire army book say if the Empire is united no other nation can stand against their military might.
    So it's empire propaganda vs elf propaganda debate ;)
  • JastallJastall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,114
    The Empire's biggest weaknesses is that the Elector Counts are always divided, and that sheer attrition from the many dangers in their lands (Beastmen, Goblins, WAAAGHs, Chaos invasions...). Should the Empire be truly united, I think it could take on either the Asur or Druchii and come out on top thanks to superior technology and vastly greater manpower. But of course that's not going to happen outside of a campaign since it would be a massive waste of resources that leaves the Empire vulnerable for no reason.

    The only thing DEs ever did to the Old World is raiding coastal settlements for slaves, as I recall, and Bretonnia gets hit by that harder than the Empire does.
  • HeroofRome1HeroofRome1 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,616
    Bretonnia gets hit harder than the Empire in the lore, but the Dark Elves will raid anywhere for loot and slaves.

    Fundamentally, when looking at the situation from the view of the Dark Elves, looting the Empire is far more high risk to invade than somewhere like Bretonnia. This can be stemmed from the fact that there are so many Beastmen and Greenskins in the Old World that the raiding party could potentially be ambushed by a Beastmen warherd, or attacked by a war party of Greenskins. Finally, the Empire's Knights and gunpowder weapon - and if the army is under the command of a skilled leader - would be more than capable of dispatching a band of raiding corsairs.
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  • ZerglesZergles Member Registered Users Posts: 3,014
    The Delfs are smart enough NOT to invade the Empire. Or even Bretonia.

    Aside from the fact that others brought up about them having no real reason to ever start a real war with the Empire, Delfs understand that the Empire would probably win. They don't have the "Elfpower" to get into a war that big.
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