Can RO be modded back in?

Stephince · November 2017

Unaware as I am of the smallest detail related to modding, I was wondering if this was at all possible. Early days in an Empire campaign and already Bretonnia are in the mountains, Dwarfs are in Bretonnian lands, VC are in the mountains etc.

Totally breaks the immersion.

blaat · November 2017

I am afraid not

this is the best we have http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1169853500&searchtext=AI+climate

Stephince · November 2017

I feared as much. I started using that mod as soon as it appeared but sadly it isn't 'strong' enough to prevent the AI doing what the AI is doing.

mewade44 · November 2017

Yes the AI doesn't care. They still go across a continent and bum rush and settlement I just razed EVEN if they HATE my civilization and I have a 20 stack parked right next to the settlement recovering from just razing it...
A semi-smart AI would not try to settle that knowing ill attack them instantly. Especially when they lose half their units health to occupy it. AND #1- because its not climate friendly to them!

Stephince · November 2017

Now I have to go to war with Angrund to take control of Wissenland. Wonderful game design.

Xenos7777 · November 2017

Stephince said:
Now I have to go to war with Angrund to take control of Wissenland. Wonderful game design.

Well, just take this complaint to people who raised hell because of RO, starting with Arch Warhammer. And they had a mod to remove it since day one, to booth. I always defended RO as necessary and conductive to lore-friendly gameplay, it seems I've been vindicated in time.

Nitros14 · November 2017

Remember a million people complaining about RO?

They were wrong, obviously, but you can't blame CA for listening to thousands of people upset.

Lord_Xelos · November 2017

Xenos7 said:

Stephince said:
Now I have to go to war with Angrund to take control of Wissenland. Wonderful game design.
Well, just take this complaint to people who raised hell because of RO, starting with Arch Warhammer. And they had a mod to remove it since day one, to booth. I always defended RO as necessary and conductive to lore-friendly gameplay, it seems I've been vindicated in time.

a) Not by me, that's for sure. I liked original RO limits.
b) Climates system isn't bad per se. In fact it's a great concept, just it's implementation is on CA level (meaning: as poor as it can be).

c) If AI was programmed correctly it would respect inhabitability of regions and let razed uninhabitable regions stay razed. So it's not RO limit or lack of RO limit at fault but CA being too bad at programming to create even remotely acceptable AI.

uriak · November 2017

I'm gonna share a secret. They programmed the AI to account for climates. They didn't put values in there that are to your liking, though.

Okay, I admit they did make a rather important oversight - the personnalities they thought were used aren't -, though. So I guess it's both design and bugs, at the same time.

Xenos7777 · November 2017

Lord_Xelos said:

Xenos7 said:

Stephince said:
Now I have to go to war with Angrund to take control of Wissenland. Wonderful game design.
Well, just take this complaint to people who raised hell because of RO, starting with Arch Warhammer. And they had a mod to remove it since day one, to booth. I always defended RO as necessary and conductive to lore-friendly gameplay, it seems I've been vindicated in time.
a) Not by me, that's for sure. I liked original RO limits.
b) Climates system isn't bad per se. In fact it's a great concept, just it's implementation is on CA level (meaning: as poor as it can be).

c) If AI was programmed correctly it would respect inhabitability of regions and let razed uninhabitable regions stay razed. So it's not RO limit or lack of RO limit at fault but CA being too bad at programming to create even remotely acceptable AI.

And that would have been a straight buff for the player. AI works exactly like RO, and the players gets to ignore it when it suits him.

Lord_Xelos · November 2017

AI doesn't "ignore when it suits it". It does so everytime. It ignores climates all the time, conquering uninhabitable regions and still getting profit off of that, because cheats.

AI isn't smart, AI doesn't create and execute strategy nor it responds to actual player actions. AI follows terrible script which most likely can be summarized in one screen of switches (programming term - basicaly wall of "if -> do something" but simpler) instead of being an actual AI.

And don't even start on "games don't use true AI's" because they do. There are dozens of video games with actual (and moddable) AI's, up to a point when modding team from MIT changed AI in Civilization 4 so it wins 99% of the time without any cheats.

And now I will share a secret with You guys: CA is too cheap to actually develop real AI. They rather spend milions on false marketing than create good AI.

Xenos7777 · November 2017

Lord_Xelos said:

And don't even start on "games don't use true AI's" because they do. There are dozens of video games with actual (and moddable) AI's, up to a point when modding team from MIT changed AI in Civilization 4 so it wins 99% of the time without any cheats.

Seems like a recipe for market failure. Also, do you have a link about it?

TRex · November 2017

I agree with the sentiment though. I hate seeing empire cities occupied by goblins, dwarfs in bretonnia or whatever. I can accept the occasional bit here or there, especially later game, but i really do prefer the map to bear some semblance of how it 'should be'.

Also the diplomacy! I started a Skaven campaign yesterday, i've never played as a 'baddie' faction before. I was surprised/disappointed to see all the dwarf factions seem to be wanting to trade/ally with me ? Surely, certain races should within reason literally always be at war? Or at least not friends?

I realise this was fine in regular total war titles, as humans were fighting humans. But you simply can't have skaven friends with dwarfs! Elves siding with dark elves to fight against their own people? Ouch.

antony23 · November 2017

I don't agree with the sentiment and I'm glad we can conquer anywhere without mods. However I see no issue with having the option to have either RO or conquer anywhere before you start a campaign.

AIMA_Dracklor · November 2017

RO was a restrictive thing, that blocked gameplay, now it opens full new starting locations for factions that befote would have had such a small territory to expand

daelin4 · November 2017

That's disappointing. At least RO could be modded out.

MrJade · November 2017

Kranox said:
RO was a restrictive thing, that blocked gameplay, now it opens full new starting locations for factions that befote would have had such a small territory to expand

Why does it bother you that some want it modded back in?

Orontes · November 2017

Stephince said:
Unaware as I am of the smallest detail related to modding, I was wondering if this was at all possible. Early days in an Empire campaign and already Bretonnia are in the mountains, Dwarfs are in Bretonnian lands, VC are in the mountains etc.

Totally breaks the immersion.

I'm all about player freedom. Should someone like a mod to return one of the two grand idiocies of Warhammer I, I hope your get it.

Sultschiem · November 2017

Kranox said:
RO was a restrictive thing, that blocked gameplay, now it opens full new starting locations for factions that befote would have had such a small territory to expand

And it screws up the balance, makes alliances much harder to maintain because you want to finish your provinces without the option to demand/buy/offer settlements ...

Just look at the dawi, vampire and norscatides....

I understand it for CERTAIN factions such as Vampires, Greenskins etc. but not for others.

Player Choice/Freedom does not equal "good" or an improvement.

A tight well designed restricted system is usually better than a huge open but worse designed free system for the same budget.

As Skarsnik I actually liked only being able to sack/raze and raid the empire and bretonnian settlements.... but now that I can conquer it...do I really want to keep sacking or just take it over to improve my defenses further and cripple their economy harder?...

Thats a big issue I had in Rome 2 and Atilla.... did it ever actually make sense just to sack and raid? No....conquering was usually way more viable.

cool_lad · November 2017

I think that the replacement of RO with climates was a good idea overall. However, there should perhaps be an option to trade/give cities with their 'suitable' owners.

For example, if the Empire conquers a Dwarf hold, they should have the option to give it to the Dwarves (in return for a hefty relationship boost), whereas if it is allied with the Dwarves it should be able to ask for any imperial/human territories that the Dwarves hold with a good chance of success.

Reconquering lost lands and gifting them to their proper owners may even become a great way of currying favour with any faction.

That said, the Skaven should not be able to ally with the Dwarves as they're essentially a continuing grudge. Elves should find it difficult (but not impossible as their grudge is settled).

uriak · November 2017

You can reach an almost "RO"

- enforce strict AI guidelines for occupation, like 0% change in unsuitable
- make the penalties extravagant: increase prices for building 50 folds, and add 100 turns for completion.

There, you can't completly forbid a region, but almost.
If you know scripting you can go all the way, too : basically write a script that checks for factions owning settlements in forbidden areas, destroy them each turn.

- note that you would have to decide what is the RO fitting all the new areas, and I suspect this was the main reason for climates being added.

Layzan · November 2017

In ME, it's so easy to just make friends with the dwarfs as greenskins. Feels awful.

The vampire counts, dwarfs etc spread like a plague.

Looks so lame as a greenskin when you occupy a vampire castle....

All the feelings I once had towards each faction has been diluted.

Drome · November 2017

We're going to house mammoths and ice trolls in the middle of a desert soon.
Just like coldbloods can live in the far north where the sun barely shows it's face.

Wargol5 · November 2017

Xenos7 said:

Stephince said:
Now I have to go to war with Angrund to take control of Wissenland. Wonderful game design.
Well, just take this complaint to people who raised hell because of RO, starting with Arch Warhammer. And they had a mod to remove it since day one, to booth. I always defended RO as necessary and conductive to lore-friendly gameplay, it seems I've been vindicated in time.

The mod who removed the Regional Occupation system allowed the factions to take all regions WITHOUT any penalties. This is NOT like the actual climate system.

Layzan · November 2017

Drome said:
We're going to house mammoths and ice trolls in the middle of a desert soon.
Just like coldbloods can live in the far north where the sun barely shows it's face.

Yay!!!! Sun block 5000 and a nice hot water bottle for those cold climates, win.

FranzSaxon · November 2017

uriak said:
You can reach an almost "RO"

- enforce strict AI guidelines for occupation, like 0% change in unsuitable
- make the penalties extravagant: increase prices for building 50 folds, and add 100 turns for completion.

There, you can't completly forbid a region, but almost.
If you know scripting you can go all the way, too : basically write a script that checks for factions owning settlements in forbidden areas, destroy them each turn.

- note that you would have to decide what is the RO fitting all the new areas, and I suspect this was the main reason for climates being added.

Yeah guys listen to him I agree with him here. **** this unloreful **** I just ignore it. No AI cheat mods, no confederations for AI mods, climate mod. Boom back to RO. They cant stop me. I just keep laughing while the "DURRR SANDBOX" crowd thinks they got their smug way. An guys, you lost, I can still mod it back in. You lose. Lore wins.

blaat · November 2017

FranzSaxon said:

uriak said:
You can reach an almost "RO"

- enforce strict AI guidelines for occupation, like 0% change in unsuitable
- make the penalties extravagant: increase prices for building 50 folds, and add 100 turns for completion.

There, you can't completly forbid a region, but almost.
If you know scripting you can go all the way, too : basically write a script that checks for factions owning settlements in forbidden areas, destroy them each turn.

- note that you would have to decide what is the RO fitting all the new areas, and I suspect this was the main reason for climates being added.
Yeah guys listen to him I agree with him here. **** this unloreful **** I just ignore it. No AI cheat mods, no confederations for AI mods, climate mod. Boom back to RO. They cant stop me. I just keep laughing while the "DURRR SANDBOX" crowd thinks they got their smug way. An guys, you lost, I can still mod it back in. You lose. Lore wins.

they win too because this is what others and I wanted be able to conquer everywhere

Xenos7777 · November 2017

Wargol5 said:

Xenos7 said:

Stephince said:
Now I have to go to war with Angrund to take control of Wissenland. Wonderful game design.
Well, just take this complaint to people who raised hell because of RO, starting with Arch Warhammer. And they had a mod to remove it since day one, to booth. I always defended RO as necessary and conductive to lore-friendly gameplay, it seems I've been vindicated in time.
The mod who removed the Regional Occupation system allowed the factions to take all regions WITHOUT any penalties. This is NOT like the actual climate system.

The gist of the discussion is that the AI ignores the penalties.

FranzSaxon · November 2017

blaat said:

FranzSaxon said:

uriak said:
You can reach an almost "RO"

- enforce strict AI guidelines for occupation, like 0% change in unsuitable
- make the penalties extravagant: increase prices for building 50 folds, and add 100 turns for completion.

There, you can't completly forbid a region, but almost.
If you know scripting you can go all the way, too : basically write a script that checks for factions owning settlements in forbidden areas, destroy them each turn.

- note that you would have to decide what is the RO fitting all the new areas, and I suspect this was the main reason for climates being added.
Yeah guys listen to him I agree with him here. **** this unloreful **** I just ignore it. No AI cheat mods, no confederations for AI mods, climate mod. Boom back to RO. They cant stop me. I just keep laughing while the "DURRR SANDBOX" crowd thinks they got their smug way. An guys, you lost, I can still mod it back in. You lose. Lore wins.
they win too because this is what others and I wanted be able to conquer everywhere

Yeah but you could mod it in before with no problem and now we cant mod it out unless we sub a concoction of AI **** mods, which I happily do but shouldn't have to. So there should have been a balance instead of pure ridiculousness for our crowd I.e. bretonnia conquering dwarf holds...gross

mewade44 · November 2017

AI not just ignores all penalties but will rush to take any settlement that's been razed regardless if hostile army is standing within range of it.

TheGuardianOfMetal · November 2017

mewade44 said:
AI not just ignores all penalties but will rush to take any settlement that's been razed regardless if hostile army is standing within range of it.

Before: "Ai doesn't care about razed settlements"
Now: "AI Takes all razed settlements wihtout any considerations!"

I guess we'll never find the middle ground

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