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(REPOST)PSA: BATTLE DIFFICULTY SETTING IS REVERSED, EASY IS VERY HARD AND VICE VERSA (confirmed!)

42konyo42konyo Registered Users Posts: 781
edited December 2017 in General Discussion

BUG HAS BEEN CONFIRMED TO REVERSE AI BUFFS, MORE DETAILS BELOW

This thread initially only highlighted the wrongfully applied leadership bonuses related to campaign battle difficulty, I've removed the screenshots with proof to replace them with a clearer breakdown of the leadership changes per difficulty to avoid that the OP becomes a complete unreadable mess, all proof can still be found in my bug report here: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/208979/difficulty-leadership-buff-debuff-bugged-possibly-all-stat-buff-debuffs#latest

So far the following has been confirmed:
  • The bug only applies to campaign battle difficulty, custom battles are unaffected.
  • Leadership buffs/debuffs are properly applied to the player, not to the AI
  • The other bonuses (melee attack/defense/damage, charge bonus & reload speed) are reversed for the AI, easy difficulty applied to VH battles and VH difficulty applied to easy battles.
  • The bugs are also present in the opt-in reprisal update beta



The exact (bugged) leadership changes for each difficulty:
Difficulty A.I. Player
Easy +4 +4
Normal 0 0
Hard -4 -2
Very Hard 0 -4




User CeltiK has confirmed via modding that the AI bonuses are in fact also reversed, on easy the AI get's all the buffs for Very hard, and on Very Hard all the debuffs from Easy.
His comment:
CeltiK said:

You indeed noticed something interesting so I decided to take a look and... it appears you are quite right mate. The BATTLE difficulties very hard and easy are inverted.

I just made a simple mod that changed the bonuses the AI gets on very hard battle difficulty. Vanilla bonuses are:
- Charge bonus +15%
- Melee attack +15%
- Melee damage +15%
- Melee defense +20%

I changed those values to ridiculous levels:
- Charge bonus +500%
- Melee attack +500%
- Melee damage +500%
- Melee defense +500%

I started a new Empire campaign using my mod with the above changes. I attacked the Secessionists using Karl Franz and his starting army. I checked that the battle difficulty was very hard. I had an easy win, losing 35% of Franz health and only 23 men. If the bonuses were taking into account it would have been a slaughter of my units.

I reloaded the game this time with the easy battle difficulty. The battle was completely different, it wasn't a battle at all but a massacre of my men due to the insane bonuses in my mod.

Conclusion: easy battle difficulty IS in fact very hard and very hard IS the easy one.

Post edited by 42konyo on
«13

Comments

  • Lord_HenkusLord_Henkus Registered Users Posts: 1,475
    Bug = Bug report sectio
    How negative I may sound, game is stil 11 out of 10

    Also, please slow down combat!




  • 42konyo42konyo Registered Users Posts: 781
    edited December 2017

    Bug = Bug report sectio

    Literally what I posted previously in previous thread when the first comment said the same:

    Already did that yesterday, but since CA has never bothered to confirm a single bug i've posted in the past and that thread overal got 5 views I figured a PSA to warn people and make sure it's not ignored would be best.

    I've been seeing way too many people complain about not being able to win battles on easy, those people should know why they're having such troubles and not accidentally find out about it somewhere next year in a patchnote if they even bother to stick around for so long due to getting frustrated with the game.
  • endurendur Registered Users Posts: 3,380
    Just a comment that while I have seen this leadership bug in AI for TWW2 campaign battles, I have not seen this in custom battles. Custom battles seemed to have the correct leadership values when I checked.

  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,162
    endur said:

    Just a comment that while I have seen this leadership bug in AI for TWW2 campaign battles, I have not seen this in custom battles. Custom battles seemed to have the correct leadership values when I checked.

    It's probably an issue in the campaign tables telling them where to draw the buffs/debuffs from.
    Thrones of Britannia: 69/100
    Warhammer II: 73/100
    Warhammer: 79/100
    Attila: 70/100 [Age of Charlemagne: 72/100]
    Rome II: 49/100
    Shogun II: 93/100 [Fall of the Samurai: 95/100]
    Napoleon: 58/100
    Empire: 53/100
    Medieval II: 90/100 [Kingdoms: 90/100]
    Rome I: 88/100
    Medieval I: 92/100
    Shogun I: 84/100
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,315
    edited December 2017
    It is easy to see if the campaign buffs/debuffs work other than ld.

    Doubt im going to log into WHTW until they fix the blobbing, ai artillery headless chicken bugs but if i do i can post if it is so or not.


    So sick of these bugs and CAs slow fix of it sucks the fun out of the game.
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • 42konyo42konyo Registered Users Posts: 781
    edited December 2017
    Since the thread is flagged for some reason, In case any mods decide to close this thread like the previous one please be so kind to delete/wipe my profile as well, it's 1 thing to be completely ignored by the company that you're trying to help out by doing their QA for them but it's another to get your hard work closed and ignored simply because someone else posts an unacceptable comment in my thread which I have no control over whatsoever.

    Edit- The thread isn't flagged anymore, guess I jumped the gun a bit.
    And to avoid confusion; the initial thread was closed due to personal attacks in the comments, it had nothing to do with the matter being discussed in the thread so let's just keep this going in this thread.
    Post edited by 42konyo on
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 17,622
    edited December 2017
    42konyo said:

    Since the thread is flagged for some reason, In case any mods decide to close this thread like the previous one please be so kind to delete/wipe my profile as well, it's 1 thing to be completely ignored by the company that you're trying to help out by doing their QA for them but it's another to get your hard work closed and ignored simply because someone else posts an unacceptable comment in my thread which I have no control over whatsoever.

    Calm down friend, I do believe it was closed partially because this thread also exists in the bug report section. That said I suggest you don't worry about flags, they're often used as a dislike button.

    Regardless, I would not have seen this were it not for your efforts, so they are appreciated.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • 42konyo42konyo Registered Users Posts: 781

    It is easy to see if the campaign buffs/debuffs work other than ld.

    Doubt im going to log into WHTW until they fix the blobbing, ai artillery headless chicken bugs but if i do i can post if it is so or not.


    So sick of these bugs and CAs slow fix of it sucks the fun out of the game.

    Could you clarify how it's possible to spot that in a campaign?
    I might have some time later to have a look but I can't think of a way to test that without too many variables that would influence the outcome.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,315
    42konyo said:

    It is easy to see if the campaign buffs/debuffs work other than ld.

    Doubt im going to log into WHTW until they fix the blobbing, ai artillery headless chicken bugs but if i do i can post if it is so or not.


    So sick of these bugs and CAs slow fix of it sucks the fun out of the game.

    Could you clarify how it's possible to spot that in a campaign?
    I might have some time later to have a look but I can't think of a way to test that without too many variables that would influence the outcome.
    I can see it within a few minutes in the start battle of a campaign. Huge diff between easy and VH.

    Maybe i can log in and check it for you if i feel like it later.
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • 42konyo42konyo Registered Users Posts: 781

    42konyo said:

    It is easy to see if the campaign buffs/debuffs work other than ld.

    Doubt im going to log into WHTW until they fix the blobbing, ai artillery headless chicken bugs but if i do i can post if it is so or not.


    So sick of these bugs and CAs slow fix of it sucks the fun out of the game.

    Could you clarify how it's possible to spot that in a campaign?
    I might have some time later to have a look but I can't think of a way to test that without too many variables that would influence the outcome.
    I can see it within a few minutes in the start battle of a campaign. Huge diff between easy and VH.

    Maybe i can log in and check it for you if i feel like it later.
    That might work indeed, I forgot that in ME i can start with a faction that is at war with a faction of it's own race unlike in vortex, I think i'll do some testing with empire to see if I can spot the difference.

    Really hope i'm wrong on this though, considering that the buffs are a bit more nuanced in game 2 when compared to game 1 (only found that out recently thanks to your thread!) i might just be really used to the tough early game of game 1.
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,162
    Any updates?
    Thrones of Britannia: 69/100
    Warhammer II: 73/100
    Warhammer: 79/100
    Attila: 70/100 [Age of Charlemagne: 72/100]
    Rome II: 49/100
    Shogun II: 93/100 [Fall of the Samurai: 95/100]
    Napoleon: 58/100
    Empire: 53/100
    Medieval II: 90/100 [Kingdoms: 90/100]
    Rome I: 88/100
    Medieval I: 92/100
    Shogun I: 84/100
  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Registered Users Posts: 2,357
    Thanks for reposting this, if it gets closed again just keep reposting it. It won't get closed again unless there's a serious attempt to "silence" this bug which I highly doubt that's what's going on, but if it does get closed again ill join you and leave the forum cuz that's to far
  • LestaTLestaT Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,290
    edited December 2017
    endur said:

    Just a comment that while I have seen this leadership bug in AI for TWW2 campaign battles, I have not seen this in custom battles. Custom battles seemed to have the correct leadership values when I checked.

    Maybe campaign is not a bug because those 'bugs' seens are due to AI units getting buffs-debuffs from their lords?

    Or due to player's Lords presence on the field giving debuffs to enemy AI units?
  • BillyRuffianBillyRuffian Moderator UKRegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 36,654
    edited December 2017

    Thanks for reposting this, if it gets closed again just keep reposting it. It won't get closed again unless there's a serious attempt to "silence" this bug which I highly doubt that's what's going on, but if it does get closed again ill join you and leave the forum cuz that's to far

    Just to clarify, threads don't get closed for reporting bugs - look in the Support sections. They do get closed when the discussion turns toxic, however, so the best way to keep this thread open is to stay on topic and avoid posts breaching the forum terms and conditions.

    If you really want to raise the profile of this as a bug report, your best option would be to either post your own bug report in the Support forums, where CA are looking for them, with screenshots and saved games or tag a "me too" onto the OP's.


    "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts - for support rather than illumination." (Andrew Lang)

    |Takeda| Yokota Takatoshi

    Forum Terms and Conditions: - https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest

    "We wunt be druv". iot6pc7dn8qs.png
  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Registered Users Posts: 2,357

    Thanks for reposting this, if it gets closed again just keep reposting it. It won't get closed again unless there's a serious attempt to "silence" this bug which I highly doubt that's what's going on, but if it does get closed again ill join you and leave the forum cuz that's to far

    Just to clarify, threads don't get closed for reporting bugs - look in the Support sections. They do get closed when the discussion turns toxic, however, so the best way to keep this thread open is to stay on topic and avoid posts breaching the forum terms and conditions.

    If you really want to raise the profile of this as a bug report, your best option would be to either post your own bug report in the Support forums, where CA are looking for them, with screenshots and saved games or tag a "me too" onto the OP's.

    I get that's the technical way to do it man but the bug section never gets any views and barely any responses. And I know you dont close things to silence people, im just saying if it got closed again that'd be weird and id be questioning it. People are just frustrated I guess. Its being worked on, we all understand that.
  • BillyRuffianBillyRuffian Moderator UKRegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 36,654
    edited December 2017
    The bug section threads should only need one view each from a CA staffer collating info to be sufficient. If you don't post there it's possible that the extent of the issue may be under-rated.

    I understand that people can be frustrated, but that is why there is a rants and raves section so that you can vent a little.

    Edit: enough off-topic. Back to the difficulty issue the OP raised.

    "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts - for support rather than illumination." (Andrew Lang)

    |Takeda| Yokota Takatoshi

    Forum Terms and Conditions: - https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest

    "We wunt be druv". iot6pc7dn8qs.png
  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Registered Users Posts: 2,357

    The bug section threads should only need one view each from a CA staffer collating info to be sufficient. If you don't post there it's possible that the extent of the issue may be under-rated.

    I understand that people can be frustrated, but that is why there is a rants and raves section so that you can vent a little.

    Edit: enough off-topic. Back to the difficulty issue the OP raised.

    Yeah I understand. Thanks for having the small discord. Ok back to topic
  • 42konyo42konyo Registered Users Posts: 781
    MrJade said:

    Any updates?

    Yes, finally!

    Just wrapped up a 2 hour testing session and I have to say upfront, it's not a foolproof testing method and it's really hard to gather conclusive data, I did about 5 battles on both easy and VH mirroring the empire secessionist army, took me a while but I managed to find a formation that enabled me to at least succesfully 1v1 swordmen without too many variables involved and the only campaign bonus I had was a +2 leadership from Karl Franz.
    (on a side note, AI on VH gets no leadership buff nor a penalty hadn't been able to fully confirm this in initial testing)

    As for the results, i'm 90% sure it's bugged, on easy I had a hard time winning anything when engaging 2 units head on, here's a screencap of 1 of the tests, the first image shows the AI swordmen, the second my own:






    As you can see AI swordmen had 67 vs 46 in this particular test, every other test went roughly the same on easy, the AI always seemed to have the most kills in a 1v1.

    Next up is VH difficulty, added some screenshots from one of the best test cases, first AI then the player again:





    As you can see these battles where way closer then it was on easy, almost the same amount of kills and their health roughly at the same levels.

    But here is where it get's interesting, in all those scenarios both on easy and VH I had 1 spearmen and 1 halberd unit engage 2 spearmen and 1 swordmen unit, and in easy it was a close call each time but on VH my 2 units won against their 3 units each time, and this wasn't due to leadership buff from the generals influence but purely by damage taken debuff.
    Image of the aftermath of 1 of the tests on VH:



    This all leads me to believe that it's either reversed as well, or not working at all.
    I really hope CA has a look at the stats, I do realize that I might be biased since game 1's buffs for AI on VH were considerably larger but even when taking that into account I feel my army should have been demolished in the testing on VH.

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 17,622
    Is difficulty in custom battles the same as difficulty in campaign? I've heard multiple people say they're different, I've never tested it myself though.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • MaleAmazonMaleAmazon Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 664
    That truly sucks.
  • 42konyo42konyo Registered Users Posts: 781

    Is difficulty in custom battles the same as difficulty in campaign? I've heard multiple people say they're different, I've never tested it myself though.

    Yeah it's highly likely that they're separate, this is supported by for example the Skaven death runners having their smoke bombs in custom battles but not in campaign battles, my assumption is that there's separate tables for both SP and MP.

    Normally that'd be a great thing, not forcing every MP tweak onto the average campaign player but in this case it makes it way to hard to get reliable 1v1 test results, shame I don't know anything about modern modding or i'd have a look at it from that side.
  • CeltiKCeltiK Registered Users Posts: 161
    You indeed noticed something interesting so I decided to take a look and... it appears you are quite right mate. The BATTLE difficulties very hard and easy are inverted.

    I just made a simple mod that changed the bonuses the AI gets on very hard battle difficulty. Vanilla bonuses are:
    - Charge bonus +15%
    - Melee attack +15%
    - Melee damage +15%
    - Melee defense +20%

    I changed those values to ridiculous levels:
    - Charge bonus +500%
    - Melee attack +500%
    - Melee damage +500%
    - Melee defense +500%

    I started a new Empire campaign using my mod with the above changes. I attacked the Secessionists using Karl Franz and his starting army. I checked that the battle difficulty was very hard. I had an easy win, losing 35% of Franz health and only 23 men. If the bonuses were taking into account it would have been a slaughter of my units.

    I reloaded the game this time with the easy battle difficulty. The battle was completely different, it wasn't a battle at all but a massacre of my men due to the insane bonuses in my mod.

    Conclusion: easy battle difficulty IS in fact very hard and very hard IS the easy one.
  • 42konyo42konyo Registered Users Posts: 781
    CeltiK said:

    You indeed noticed something interesting so I decided to take a look and... it appears you are quite right mate. The BATTLE difficulties very hard and easy are inverted.

    I just made a simple mod that changed the bonuses the AI gets on very hard battle difficulty. Vanilla bonuses are:
    - Charge bonus +15%
    - Melee attack +15%
    - Melee damage +15%
    - Melee defense +20%

    I changed those values to ridiculous levels:
    - Charge bonus +500%
    - Melee attack +500%
    - Melee damage +500%
    - Melee defense +500%

    I started a new Empire campaign using my mod with the above changes. I attacked the Secessionists using Karl Franz and his starting army. I checked that the battle difficulty was very hard. I had an easy win, losing 35% of Franz health and only 23 men. If the bonuses were taking into account it would have been a slaughter of my units.

    I reloaded the game this time with the easy battle difficulty. The battle was completely different, it wasn't a battle at all but a massacre of my men due to the insane bonuses in my mod.

    Conclusion: easy battle difficulty IS in fact very hard and very hard IS the easy one.

    Incredible, huge thanks for putting in the effort to confirm that bug!
    I'll edit the OP to reflect both that and the exact LD bonuses for each difficulty, i'll be sure to add those results to my bug report as well.
  • CeltiKCeltiK Registered Users Posts: 161
    edited December 2017
    Additional info: the bonuses for each battle difficulty are located in the _kv_rules table.
  • MIHALISMIHALIS Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 129
    any comment from CA ?
  • DMFan79DMFan79 ItalyRegistered Users Posts: 403
    This must be a bug introduced with the last beta patch.

    I remember checking tooltips pre-patch and bonuses were working properly.
  • CeltiKCeltiK Registered Users Posts: 161
    DMFan79 said:

    This must be a bug introduced with the last beta patch.

    I remember checking tooltips pre-patch and bonuses were working properly.

    It's not the beta patch as I haven't installed the beta patch. I tested on the regular version of the game, not the beta branch.
  • 42konyo42konyo Registered Users Posts: 781
    CeltiK said:

    DMFan79 said:

    This must be a bug introduced with the last beta patch.

    I remember checking tooltips pre-patch and bonuses were working properly.

    It's not the beta patch as I haven't installed the beta patch. I tested on the regular version of the game, not the beta branch.
    Beta should have the same bug, someone confirmed that either in the previous thread that was closed or in the bug report
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,315
    CeltiK said:

    You indeed noticed something interesting so I decided to take a look and... it appears you are quite right mate. The BATTLE difficulties very hard and easy are inverted.

    I just made a simple mod that changed the bonuses the AI gets on very hard battle difficulty. Vanilla bonuses are:
    - Charge bonus +15%
    - Melee attack +15%
    - Melee damage +15%
    - Melee defense +20%

    I changed those values to ridiculous levels:
    - Charge bonus +500%
    - Melee attack +500%
    - Melee damage +500%
    - Melee defense +500%

    I started a new Empire campaign using my mod with the above changes. I attacked the Secessionists using Karl Franz and his starting army. I checked that the battle difficulty was very hard. I had an easy win, losing 35% of Franz health and only 23 men. If the bonuses were taking into account it would have been a slaughter of my units.

    I reloaded the game this time with the easy battle difficulty. The battle was completely different, it wasn't a battle at all but a massacre of my men due to the insane bonuses in my mod.

    Conclusion: easy battle difficulty IS in fact very hard and very hard IS the easy one.

    Bugs. Bugs everywhere.
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,315
    42konyo said:

    CeltiK said:

    DMFan79 said:

    This must be a bug introduced with the last beta patch.

    I remember checking tooltips pre-patch and bonuses were working properly.

    It's not the beta patch as I haven't installed the beta patch. I tested on the regular version of the game, not the beta branch.
    Beta should have the same bug, someone confirmed that either in the previous thread that was closed or in the bug report
    I did some tests aswell. Im on beta. I can confirm that easy is not easy battle difficulty in the beta.
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
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