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Crooked Moon

NirgaloNirgalo Registered Users Posts: 57
edited November 2017 in Balancing Discussions
CA sell DLC like The King and the Warlord as a complete product. But they dont test it at all.
Goblins have 48 charge bonus instead of 12 (u get 40 flat instead 40%)
Squek Cavalry dont get bonus for ALL CAVALRY tech
Goblins dont have repleneshment on settlens
No way u can fight against DE or HE (no answer for shades, cavalry)
Goblins dont have quality units at all ( Spider Moma and Ogre just kill in the second by shades. Shades kill goblin chariot 1 vs 1)
Goblins fanatic chains are stuck (glitch) at hole in the wall and most part of siege map.

I dont tell about autoresult, im complete I and II TTW on legendary on all factions. But if in game 1 Crooked Moon seems just not good. Know with change viktory condition u must keep at least 8 enemy capital. DE kill HE, get alliance with Skaven and gonna kill u. No Way that u can do again infinity DE armys.

No fix for that in game 1, no fix in game 2. And no plans announced. That race just ONE BIG BUG and just complete unwinible on legendary.

I think u must fix that bugs and review balance of that race.

Sry for my eng, im not eng speaker.


  • Necropolitan13Necropolitan13 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 38
    I've been playing a Crooked Moon campaign in Mortal Empires on hard, and I absolutely agree they need to be fixed. With all respect to the OP, I'll try to clarify his issues and add my own.

    Crooked Moon is nearly unplayable. I've attempted to complete a campaign with them three times now, twice in Warhammer 1, and now once in Warhammer 2. So far, I've never come close to winning with them, though I've gotten further with my current campaign than the ones I attempted in the first game. To be perfectly clear, I completed a hard/very hard campaign with every faction from the first game except Crooked Moon, and have completed at least a hard campaign with every race (not every LL) in the second game; so I have a lot of experience with the game.

    Crooked Moon suffers from a number of problems that compound into a severely disadvantaged campaign. Firstly, they are goblins, and goblins, quite frankly, are almost worthless. The upkeep reduction for them is not nearly enough to allow you to recruit enough to really make a difference, especially against Dwarfs, which are your primary early and late-game enemies. My current campaign has been going for almost 80 turns, and aside from some rapid expansion through confederation here and there (and the subsequent loss of most of that territory), I am only now really starting to put any pressure on the badlands regions.

    I have had a negative income through most of my campaign, only surviving due to fortunately timed raids in enemy territory; yet I have really only had two or three mid-tier armies for most of the game. Meanwhile, the Dwarfs have outnumbered me (which is REALLY backwards) and, while I have yet to encounter any Dwarf unit higher than a Longbeard, I have been utterly crushed by them in almost every standup fight I've been in (even siege defenses, which I think I am quite good at). Even when I ambush them, I still have the hardest time winning, and most often just hurt them enough to turn back their survivors, while losing my own army completely.

    It is only with the aid of Waaagh! armies that I am able to put up any significant resistance, and even then only against one enemy army at a time, typically; and it is difficult to keep an army alive and strong long enough to spawn one.

    Another huge obstacle faced by Crooked Moon (which is made far worse by the above problems) is their start position. They start with nothing but a small settlement, and are surrounded by factions that hate them. What is a goblin to do in this situation? Mostly, they die. It took me 15 turns of preparing and besieging Karak Norn to finally take it; the first settlement I was able to capture. That's 15 turns into the game before I had any expansion at all. In contrast, playing as almost any other faction, you are able to take a settlement within the first 1-5 turns; often more than one settlement. To add to this slow start, it doesn't take long before the Empire and Wood Elf factions declare war on you as well. So now you are forced into a defensive posture, needing to dedicate all of your forces to defending your meager holdings, unable to afford an offensive force. So you sit and wait for your two settlements to grow to get a little more income and recruitment potential. Maybe you raid a little here and there, but doing so is risky, since you don't have the funds or the buildings to recruit decent units. It's a painful early game, making you wonder why on earth you decided to torture yourself by playing this nearly useless faction.

    So, in the early game, Crooked Moon is about the equivalent of a noodle boiling in a pot of water. All you can do is just try to hold on and hope that at the very least your enemies leave you alone, and at best they destroy each other for you so you can go clean up the scraps. Eventually, if you do manage to survive long enough, you'll start to make some headway. But now comes the next challenge: Clan Angrund.

    Clan Angrund is your eternal enemy. They are Dwarfs, on the opposite side of the combat spectrum from goblins. They are tough, have insane amounts of leadership, and, unlike Crooked Moon, start in a big walled settlement. So, now you are a nearly worthless race with a weak starting position trying to go up against one of the toughest races with a fairly strong starting position. And to reach your goal, you have to somehow get past them, and several other hostile factions. Life as a goblin is pretty bleak, even Skarsnik, the supposed Supreme Ruler of the Eight Peaks.

    To summarize a bit, Crooked Moon is unreasonably difficult to achieve victory with, due to the combination of low-quality units, low recruitment capacity, a weak starting settlement, and myriad local threats in the early game. I don't think it is indeed possible to win as Crooked Moon on Very Hard or Legendary, and I have yet to see if it is possible even on Hard, without significant modding. To address these issues, here are some suggestions, some or all of which should be implemented, or at least considered, to bring Crooked Moon more in-line with other factions:

    Increase fightiness - Crooked Moon depends largely on Waaagh! armies to make them competitive in the campaign, so much so that an army without a Waaagh! to accompany it is really only useful as a garrison boost.

    Further decreased goblin upkeep/lower upkeep increase per army - Goblins rely heavily on superior numbers to win. If you can't support more units/armies than your enemy, you are going to lose. Given their weak start, both militarily and economically, they really need to have cheaper units, so they can field more of them earlier in the game.

    Increase quality of starting settlement/garrison - It's a huge gamble trying to go on the offense in the early game, since your capital is basically undefended. Karak Azgaraz (your capital) should start at least at level 2, possibly already with a garrison structure. In addition, it wouldn't hurt to get some nasty skulkers in the garrison either, as they are pretty much the only early-game unit capable of hurting Dwarfs much.

    Decrease enmity from Wood Elves - I don't know the lore at all, but if it is reasonable to make the Wood Elves more passive/neutral toward Crooked Moon, and thus less likely to declare war, it would go a long way to giving Crooked Moon enough security to go on offense more readily (even though the Wood Elves have yet to actually attack me, in spite of declaring war on me a number of times).

    All in all, the early game for Crooked Moon is simply not fun, but rather tedious and frustrating. Even if it's decided that my suggestions aren't the right fix, SOMETHING needs to be done to bring them up to par.
  • Necropolitan13Necropolitan13 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 38
    In addition to everything in my first post above, I'll also second the OP's observation of the Night Goblin Fanatics being bugged. A lot of the time the spinning fanatics don't actually move forward, which makes them pretty much useless. It seems to be related to having nearby obstacles (i.e. structures), but I haven't been able to test it thoroughly yet.
  • Necropolitan13Necropolitan13 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 38
    Another thing I just remembered is that Crooked Moon's garrisons are too large. The game only seems to allow up to 20 units in a garrison, yet a fully upgraded settlement with garrison structure adds more than 20 units to the garrison, so it leaves some of the units out. Replacing some of the weaker units with stronger ones and decreasing the overall number of units should be an easy solution for this, of course.
  • R4tmanR4tman Registered Users Posts: 34
    Now, I haven't played Crooked Moon in ME yet but if anything it should be easier in ME since you have more possible settlements (I suppose human settlement-places are "orange" for them - I might be wrong though).
    I have won the Crooked Moon campaign in TWW1 on hard twice though.

    The fun part about Crooked Moon is the fact that you have to rely on goblins and that you can be damn effective with them. The trick is to use goblin warlords and pump those red skills that buff your goblins into oblivion - I remember goblin spearmen with 72 MA and dirt cheap at that.
    Raiding the empire was very useful in the old campaign aswell, now that you can settle there I'm not sure what would be better. Probably raiding since you want to go south.

    The tricky early game is the most fun part of the Crooked Moon campaign in my opinion and I hope they don't change it (aside from bugs if there are any).

    Honestly in my opinion Angrund is more difficult - the upkeep penalty is much more a penalty since you don't get anything in return like Crooked Moon's goblin bonuses.
  • Necropolitan13Necropolitan13 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 38
    edited December 2017
    Hm, perhaps I've just had poor luck with them in the past, or lacked the patience to deal with the early game difficulties. Or maybe they just aren't really my style. Still, I feel like many, if not all, of the issues I mentioned are valid problems. Though it sounds like the Dwarfs may be getting a bit of a nerf in the next patch to make them less dominant, so that may go some way in fixing my issues, too. Perhaps I just need to sack settlements more (a lot) to support my armies and just accept that my income will be in the red constantly, behaving more like a horde faction.

    In any case, I have been doing ok in my current campaign, now that I've gained some traction. I don't understand how the early game is very fun though lol.
  • R4tmanR4tman Registered Users Posts: 34
    I'm wondering, did the Wood Elves actually attack you or did they only declare war on you? I can't remember them attacking me even after I captured Clan Angrunds Territory. Your starting position is rather safe from the Wood Elves since they would have to run a long way to get to you.
    Also it's a good idea to use your heroes a lot since they gain double XP through actions and you can level them up fast.

    It definately is one of the harder/slower starting positions the fun for me comes from overcoming the problems.
  • natesos1natesos1 Registered Users Posts: 159
    edited December 2017
    Yeah I agree crooked moon has huge issues fanatics not working inside walls is a huge one the limited garrison size is another huge issue, green skins are sparse and die fast confederations is broken. On another note yes mortal empires is much harder for any green skin cause everybody hates you so you have to fight a war with everybody on face of planet you are not willing to hand 50000k and make a alliance with then watch the the relationship with care and hand them more money if need be. Ive won as gobbos on leg many times its not that hard just go to nagarond take what ever you can give dark elfs some cash allie with them and boom you got a huge ice kingdom you barely have to defend at all try to only have a standing army if you really need it I like to just sit with no army build lots of forts with walls save up a ton of cash then if I see a rebellion or a attack just call up a Lord and regs of renown I need to defend the city then disband them. If im in a real war with a nation larger or stronger then me i end it fast call up 3-6 stacks of all goblin Spears with a few bows maybe a wolf rider or 2 just to chase down routing units real fast fast as I can. Goblins are a solid unit as well it's just night goblins that sucks moral is to low on night goblins. So to cut this all short garrison limit needs to be fixed, fanatics need to work in citys, more diplomatic options skaven should not hate green skins as much nor lizard men and orks should be able to trade especially skarsnik, but I do not agree that legendary is impossible just got to team up with dark elfs and send massive waves of 10k-20k of goblins at your enemies.
    Post edited by natesos1 on
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 25,076

    Completely disagree. I've completed Crooked Moon campaigns in WH1 (on H/H) and played the first few turns of a Crooked Moon campaign in ME (H/N due to difficulty bug) and they're just fine. You are given all the tools you need to defeat your enemies without Ork troops. Goblins make for a suitable tarpit to bind troops so your Nightgoblins or Nasty Skulkers can flank or rear charge then and the AP damage of Squig Hoppers has been increased by quite a bit helping against the early wars against the Dwarfs. The battle pace changes in WH2 actually made the battles actually easier for them since your Goblins stand and fight much longer now.

    Treat them like a Skaven army, so lots of HP to throw at the enemy to grind through plus some elites that pinpoint the hurt where it needs to be. If you play them like Warriors of Chaos and just throw them all into a frontal charge you of course won't reap and victories.

    Pluse the red buffs on Skarsnik and Nightgoblin Warbosses can seriously boost basic Goblins and Nightgoblins to the point that they can give other race's elite infantry a run for their money.

  • natesos1natesos1 Registered Users Posts: 159
    edited December 2017
    If you guys are so afraid of the wood elfs just give them all the gifts you can like all 3 as early as you can I can make lasting alliances with both the empire and wood elfs at the same time ive done it in game 1 on legendary. 20000k early game means you can get a permanent alliance with just about anybody maybe even a dwarf if you really work at it just got to give them all the gifts at once and make sure relations are on the up and up.
    Post edited by natesos1 on
  • natesos1natesos1 Registered Users Posts: 159
    edited December 2017
    That first dwarf city is a real bitch I found a way to take it out turn 2 just got to charge the danm city distract the **** out of them at side gate with lord and goblins with unbreakable banner sneak night goblins over wall on other side wait for all of them to climb up get them close to victory point charge giant spider and cav in through front gate and take the victory point then hold them off from it might take a few trys at first if this is to much for you you should just set sail to northern nagarond right away stake a claim and pay off you're new lords the dark elfs who knows you might just rule over the dark elfs but you might be to busy taking back and holding eight peeks or exterminating all chaos related factions before chaos can even arrive greatly weakening chaos and saving most of the South but sorry smashing things tell they break will never work with the goblins it's all about the art of the deal in my book.
    Post edited by natesos1 on
  • Necropolitan13Necropolitan13 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 38
    Well I do use a couple of mods that might be making my life a bit more difficult lol. One of them removes the chance for a capture victory on siege battles, as I think it's a cheap tactic and the AI exploits it in stupid ways too often ("haha I got my half-dead trash unit to your city center because it rallied behind your walls" what? they should try to run out the gates not into the city >.<).

    As for the Wood Elves, they have been a potential threat so far. They declare war but have never attacked. But they can use the Worldroots to bypass the mountains so they could attack in just two turns if they wanted to, making them an immediate threat. As stated, I've struggled with money the whole campaign, so I haven't had any extra to give to anyone, so buttering them up hasn't been an option either. I suppose it could also be a matter of their assigned personalities; from what I understand, they get a random or semi-random personality for each campaign.

    Squigs/Hoppers, night goblins, and nasty skulkers are good units that are quite effective if used well, but the trouble is growing the early settlements enough to recruit them. In my experience, my cities have grown very slowly. Couple this with the financial struggle, and it because quite difficult to recruit higher-tier units for some time. Again, maybe my financial problems as Crooked Moon stem from me not being aggressive enough with raiding and sacking; I'm perhaps too cautious and unwilling to leave my settlements without armies nearby to defend them if needed to go raiding very far. But this doesn't address the slow growth of cities. It seems to be a choice between growing cities and having a military in the early game, since you don't have many building slots to work with.

    I suppose I should do a campaign without any mods that could possibly affect gameplay to make a better assessment of the base mechanics. I don't use very many mods that do that, though, and I hadn't thought they'd make it significantly more difficult. Really the only one that significantly changes anything in combat is the one that makes it impossible to capture city victory points. I also have one that gives a slight buff/debuff to tax income based on happiness/obedience level, but I don't think that would make a massive difference either (maybe I'm underestimating it).

    In any case, I still feel like Crooked Moon could use some tweaks to give them a bit more staying power in the early game.
  • UniverseBearUniverseBear Registered Users Posts: 123
    Crooked Moon are my all time favourite faction to play in campaign. I have won with them on legendary (albeit in Warhammer 1) and I find them pretty powerful once they get going.

    Yes, the start is an absolute **** fest. But if you read the giant red print in the campaign select screen their starting location is marked as HARD. In my last game I had to bait Karak Norn into attacking my **** starting settlement so I could sneak past and take the capital. Then I went about slaughtering the rest of that stupid faction.

    There are 3 things that are imperative to winning as Crooked Moon: Goblin Big Boss lords, that 40% upkeep/recruit reduction and Waaaaaghs!

    Only using Goblin Big Boss Lords is really important. Why? Because dey get all da good gobbo buffs. Tons of Melee attack and charge bonuses plus, most important of all, at level 4 ALL your gobbo units get poison. Crappy gobbo spears get it, crappy gobbo archers get it, skulkers get it (which makes them OP AF btw). By the time your general is hitting lvl 8 regular gobbo spears can 1v1 dwarf warriors but, very importantly, they cost less than half as much in upkeep. I don't bother with night goblins as they are more expensive and the poison buff from your general doesn't add anything to them plus they have 7 less leadership than spears. Once gobbo spears get poison the night goblins are pretty much redundant. Sure they have stalk and vanguard but your skulkers should be taking on the flanking role anyway. The poison and other gobbo upgrades means you can field relatively effective armies for often half the cost of other race equivalents. With a little raiding one province can easily support two full stacks of poison wielding ninja gobbos which is important because...

    Waaaaaghs! They are important for GS but even more so for Crooked Moon. With such cheap army stacks Waaaaaghs really shine. For each dirt cheap stalk of poison gobbo ninjas you get a bonus stack for free, often touting artillery and trolls. The more cheap stacks you can make the more free ones you get. It's a little gimmicky for GS but for Crooked Moon it's totally exploitable! Raid your own settlements at the start if you have to. You'll get experience to get gobbo army upgrades as well as a nice waaaaaagh with almost no risk.

    While your starting location is awful the province itself is not. With only two entrances and guaranteed attrition for anyone non orcy or dwarfy it's really easy to defend. Sure, the Wood Elves declare war on you every time, but when do they actually attack you? In my experience never. Plus you can head on down there with your 2 stacks and 2 waaaaghs and beat them into submission pretty easily. Empire sometimes attacks but not always and they will attack from the northern pass that is easy to defend. Brettonia will often sign a non-aggression pact with you (which I find...strange but I'll take it every time). Also if you go north a little you can hook up with some orc tribes up there. Dwarfs will be your biggest threat but with the right starting build they are easy to deal with. That build being:

    Gobbo spears to hold the front line (surprisingly good at it, 55 leadership and 24 defence is actually slightly above average for **** 300 gold units.) a couple archers, mostly for morale lowering and nasty skulkers (you can get this in the first few turns). You need those skulkers or you won't win your early dwarf engagements. Sure, after you get some upgrades the gobbo spears will actually wreck dwarf warriors (and fully upgraded they will wreck longbeards, which is as hilarious as it sounds). The skulkers are key early game and really all game. The comp can't deal with stalk, lure them into your gobbo spear line and descend upon them with skulkers from the flank/rear. GG. Even more so when your stalkers get poison meaning they almost always automatically start winning their fights giving them that buff that gives them 42 melee attack and 25 AP (way more if your gobbos are upgraded). Hurl your spider into the front line causing fear and terror to break them. With this tactic you can pretty easily take on larger, more expensive stacks at the start of the game. After the starting phase it just becomes OP and you'll wreck dwarves left and center and right and back to left again. Clan Angrund are nothing but bitches. Easy to beat as any dwarf faction, just leave the Ethereal till last.

    Honestly, Waaaaaghs are super powerful for Crooked Moon but you can do well even without them. I consistently take on stacks twice my power and win. If you are looking to Auto-Roll then Crooked Moon is not really the faction for you but if you can play tricksy they are actually awesome.

    On Hard your skulkers are also going to be your answer to cav, it's pretty hard to micro them without pause but in Hard you can still use pause so micro-ing their smoke bomb is easy peasy. Fully upgraded you can take on demi-griffs and other elite cav with skulkers (that's FULLY upgraded, meaning general, techs and Eight peaks). Smoke bomb them, completely nullifying their charge and speed and then rush em. You don't have AL but you have tons of AP and most cav have lots of armor (if they don't who cares? Use whatever to fight them) so they'll die pretty fast. The poison will keep them from escaping or doing much damage. Skarsnig himself should also be used to fight cav/large as he does get AL.

    I'm not sure how you are even running into HE and DE with Crooked Moon, can't say I have had the pleasure since I go Eight Peaks which is completely opposite of their territory. I wouldn't see shades as being any more dangerous than regular archers though. Gobbos don't have much armour so their AP is wasted and gobbos also get silver shields and, again, skulkers, which easily wreck backlines because the bot is pretty dumb. Squig riders are anti-infantry and will catch them pretty fast too (for mid-early game fights). Anyway you shouldn't be fighting towards HE or DE so...just stop doing that I guess.

    Once you have Eight Peaks it's business as usual if you want. BOs an all the orcy nonsense. Personally I like fighting chaos with gobbos. Just sending waves and waves of them.

    In Legendary I find Crooked Moon Easier than Greenskins. With GS you'll struggle to defend anything and your first province can get attacked by multiple sides and your stacks are really costly in comparison. The bots will be able to generally support two stacks per province and the Crooked Moon, with a couple upgrades, is simply better at dealing with that as you can actually match those stalks (or overcome them with waaaaghs). You just have to use clever battlefield tactics to make those stacks as powerful, which is honestly pretty easy against bots.

  • Necropolitan13Necropolitan13 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 38
    Hmm, well it seems perhaps some of my mods must have a larger impact on my games than I had thought, because I know and utilize everything you talked about, and still had a terrible time. As an example, I once ambushed Belegar of Clan Angrund, I had him outnumbered significantly and had a good number of skulkers, if I recall correctly. Even outnumbered and surrounded, they STILL wrecked me. I consider myself a pretty good Total War player, typically I play on hard these days (and as I've said, I've completed numerous very hard and a legendary campaign), I've won some pretty crazy battles, but to see my goblins just flop around being largely useless like that, it's just too much, heh. The dwarfs came out of the ambush still strong enough to finish off my ambushing army and then take a walled city besides.

    So my only conclusion, given what people are saying here, is that mods (at least the ones I have, apparently) are terrible for Crooked Moon... It's really odd that they effect them so differently than other factions. I suppose I could try a completely vanilla Crooked Moon game and see how it goes. I really didn't think the mods I use changed that much.
  • UniverseBearUniverseBear Registered Users Posts: 123

    Hmm, well it seems perhaps some of my mods must have a larger impact on my games than I had thought, because I know and utilize everything you talked about, and still had a terrible time. As an example, I once ambushed Belegar of Clan Angrund, I had him outnumbered significantly and had a good number of skulkers, if I recall correctly. Even outnumbered and surrounded, they STILL wrecked me. I consider myself a pretty good Total War player, typically I play on hard these days (and as I've said, I've completed numerous very hard and a legendary campaign), I've won some pretty crazy battles, but to see my goblins just flop around being largely useless like that, it's just too much, heh. The dwarfs came out of the ambush still strong enough to finish off my ambushing army and then take a walled city besides.

    So my only conclusion, given what people are saying here, is that mods (at least the ones I have, apparently) are terrible for Crooked Moon... It's really odd that they effect them so differently than other factions. I suppose I could try a completely vanilla Crooked Moon game and see how it goes. I really didn't think the mods I use changed that much.

    I would say try it without the mods. I tend to have a great time with them so I'm not sure what other advice I can give. Let me know how you fare, I'd be interested in hearing.
  • DivvytownDivvytown Registered Users Posts: 1
    From my experience the first lets say 10-15 turns of every campaign has a huge impact on how well you will do for the rest of the game.

    For the Crooked Moon campaign i usually tunnel towards your regions capital currently occupied by the dwarfs at turn 1, and then I'm able to set up a siege on turn 2 so they cant build or recruit anything. If they attack you just retreat and take the fightiness drop, and then siege up anew.

    At the same time recruit a new lord and start recruiting units on him while moving him towards your siege. That way you should be able to take over the capital at turn 4 or 5, and the entire region well before turn 10. (i use Steel Faith, but I think it should work for un-modded games as well)

    That said i did find this campaign rather difficult/annoying due to lack of synergy between a need to be on the move sacking settlements and no talents on either lord or hero to increase replenishment for your troops.
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