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Argwylon needs more advantages to play them instead of Wood-Elves

v1r0nv1r0n Posts: 4Registered Users
Hello Support Team/Warhammer Community,

i'm playing the Wood-Elves Addon for a pretty long time now and was always choosing Argwylon as starting-faction.
I really like the style of the fores-spirits, much more than the "elvish" troops...
But as i was progressing in the campaign OR the Multiplayer campaign, i was confronted one problem again and again: The "real" Wood-Elves (of Orion and the other Elvish lords) are much stronger than the Argwylon Faction, it's nowhere balanced as it should!

As example: The Amber-Units are not equally split... Why doesnt Orion has to pay Amber for the Wild-Rider Units? But why then Durthu has to pay Amber for almost every "NOT WOODGHOST" Unit, e.g. Wood-Riders, Wardancers, Wildwood Rangers, Waywatchers, Sisters of the Thorn...

This is just not even in comparison!

And this goes on with everything compared between the two factions, it just doesnt feel like it's written in the lore.. i don't see a single advantage of picking Argwylon instead of Wood-elves :(
It's written that the Argwylon rely on their Spirit-Creatures, like Dryads, Treekin, Treeman etc. and therefore having them be more effective under Durthus control than under Elven-Lords?

but why the heck do the wood-ELVES have a position in their council to boost up the Argwylon special units and the Durthu-faction does NOT?!?!?
This doesn't even make sense.. and the tech-tree (which is the same for both factions) mostly fits for the Elvish Warriors, because with "Eldrazor and Addaioth" the boost only goes for them again!

And it's so uncool that the Wood-Elves can buy Durthu as a leader but vice versa the Argwylon can't recruit Orion... o_O
Durthu should be available ONLY to Argwylon!

Please dear team of TW:Warhammer, fix this in the name of fairness!
Everytime i fight against other wood elve factions most of the time they only need wildwood-rangers to kill everything of my faction.. there is nothing to stand against them in early game of the argwylon-units!

Best regards! :)

Comments

  • lucibuislucibuis Posts: 2,495Registered Users
    I agree, more tree units and dragons please
  • v1r0nv1r0n Posts: 4Registered Users
    great to have some support on my side here :P
    i would recommend:

    1. Durthu only available for Argwylon
    2. Slightly different Tech-Tree for Argwylon, with a focus for tree units
    3. Amber Payment for Argwylon only for Wardancers, Wildwood-Rangers, Waywatchers and Forest-Riders/Sisters of the Thorns..
    4. Amber Payment for Wood-Elves only for Deepwood-Archers, Treekin, Dryads, Treemen, Eagles, Wild-Riders and Forest Dragons..
    5. Let the councils of the Wood-Elves boost up THEIR Elven-Units and the Council of the Elders boost up the Tree-Units.

    I would really appreciate to keep this discussion alive and maybe we can see some improvements in the future =)
  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    v1r0n said:

    great to have some support on my side here :P
    i would recommend:

    1. Durthu only available for Argwylon
    2. Slightly different Tech-Tree for Argwylon, with a focus for tree units
    3. Amber Payment for Argwylon only for Wardancers, Wildwood-Rangers, Waywatchers and Forest-Riders/Sisters of the Thorns..
    4. Amber Payment for Wood-Elves only for Deepwood-Archers, Treekin, Dryads, Treemen, Eagles, Wild-Riders and Forest Dragons..
    5. Let the councils of the Wood-Elves boost up THEIR Elven-Units and the Council of the Elders boost up the Tree-Units.

    I would really appreciate to keep this discussion alive and maybe we can see some improvements in the future =)

    1. I think Durthu is already limited to Argwylon unless you confederate them, and i guess Argwylion can use Orion too if they confederate. A least is how it works for all the other factions.

    2. ok

    3 and 4. Makes no sense. Why would Orion have to pay amber to recruit wild riders, which are supposed to be "his" personal unit, and Durthu not? The actual system is unbalanced, but makes sense. What you are proposing makes none. Why should wood elves pay for such a basic unit as deepwood archers?

    Limiting the units needing amber makes sense, as it is a boring mechanic. Increasing them? No, thx.



    Again, the two factions being balanced is not really necessary. The point of having subfactions and different LLs is also including more difficult challenges in the game.
  • v1r0nv1r0n Posts: 4Registered Users
    edited December 2017
    Well, first of all thanks for reply..
    Maybe i should double-check some of my suggestions.

    The reason is suggest Orion hast to pay amber for wild riders and deepwood archers, is the following:

    The real wood-elves have to pay amber only for following units: Treekin, Treeman, Hawk Riders, Eagles and Forest Dragons... These are in TOTAL Five Units!!! (and only units i usually don't need in bigger numbers)

    The Argwylon faction have to pay amber for following units: Wardancers (both), Wildwood Rangers, Waywatchers,
    Glade Riders (both) and Sisters of the Thorn.
    In total: SEVEN Units!
    Pocman said:

    Why should wood elves pay for such a basic unit as deepwood archers?
    In my opinion they should pay amber for them because Durthu has to pay for every other TIER 2 Unit (e.g. Wardancers) and has to rely mainly on Dryads to hold the main battle-line.. Not a very fair standoff against Wardancers/Wildwood Rangers because they even don't get affected by the dryad's fear ability.. ;)

  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,260Registered Users
    Use Treekin for your main line. Works against AI.
  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    v1r0n said:

    Well, first of all thanks for reply..
    Maybe i should double-check some of my suggestions.

    The reason is suggest Orion hast to pay amber for wild riders and deepwood archers, is the following:

    The real wood-elves have to pay amber only for following units: Treekin, Treeman, Hawk Riders, Eagles and Forest Dragons... These are in TOTAL Five Units!!! (and only units i usually don't need in bigger numbers)

    The Argwylon faction have to pay amber for following units: Wardancers (both), Wildwood Rangers, Waywatchers,
    Glade Riders (both) and Sisters of the Thorn.
    In total: SEVEN Units!

    Pocman said:

    Why should wood elves pay for such a basic unit as deepwood archers?
    In my opinion they should pay amber for them because Durthu has to pay for every other TIER 2 Unit (e.g. Wardancers) and has to rely mainly on Dryads to hold the main battle-line.. Not a very fair standoff against Wardancers/Wildwood Rangers because they even don't get affected by the dryad's fear ability.. ;)

    Instead of making orion pay for wild riders and deepwood archers, take out the amber requirement from both variants of glade riders. They are not elite (in fact, in TT they were considered a "core" unit, meaning very very basic, so paying ambar for them doesn't make sense. That way, both have the same number of units requiring ambar, and Argwylon can get some cavalry without needing ambar.


    Ambar for recruitment is in my opinion a very boring mechanic, so non-elite units units should not need it.

    Having said that, trying to balance it taking into account the results of a civil war doesn't really make sense, as mosts times you want to confederate other elven nations instead of conquering them.


  • lucibuislucibuis Posts: 2,495Registered Users
    I agree, especially if drycha is added and age can only raise forest spirits...

    Another thing I don’t love kevis how elves got 5 ror and trees only one... very skewed. Forest faction is poorly made tbh
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,260Registered Users
    Do you pay Amber for RoR, can't remember?
  • lucibuislucibuis Posts: 2,495Registered Users

    Do you pay Amber for RoR, can't remember?

    No, but it still shows the difference in attention the two subfuctions got
  • RhyndirRhyndir Posts: 251Registered Users
    edited December 2017
    I think we had this topic some time ago and even as Talsyn (Wood Elves - Orion) player I slightly agree.

    I am not speaking of any major stat changes here just for the sake of some campaign balance between Argwylon and Talsyn - though we might expect some buffs/tweaking in the future, because many monstrous units of the WE underperform in MP a bit, especially the Treekin.

    The "Amber"-Pendulum swung slightly in favour of Talsyn at the end of TWW, and with the release of Warhammer 2 and the ME balancing the Wood Elves are finally and utterly dominant over the Forest Spirits.

    Asrai Spear WD ascended to demigodhood, WD are finally worth their upkeep and cost, good stuff these Ladies, Glade Riders became even more amazing, Rangers and Watchers where buffed reasonbly and 20% cheaper Wild Riders still hold their spot as amazing Cav.

    IIRC the only true buff to Forest Spirits was FD recieving Breath, and hell, FD has become and even cooler pick. On the other hand the Treekin became worse (Spreading their slightly upscaled healthpool over 12 instead 9 wasn't a good idea IMO.)

    My proposals for this issue would be.

    1. Do nothing: Awesome eh? Well, I can't tell what CA has in mind in the future regarding forest spirits. It's pretty obvious they do underperform (except Forest Dragon) and their might be some changes to them: If anything in this direction is planned it might be unnecessary to revamp any amber limitations on units.

    2. Wardancers(+Asrai Spears) OR Wildwood Rangers made amber-free for Argwylon in addition to Gladeriders (Hagebane included).
  • Phoenix99Phoenix99 Senior Member Posts: 1,036Registered Users
    uhm you have access to basic archers and spears, then you have treekin, dryads, treemen, HAWK RIDERS, giant eagles, DRAGONS and you have a problem with this roster? I'll take amber free forest dragon over sisters of the thorn any day.

    This line up is pure hammer and anvil where treekin are your anvil and dragons and other flying units are your hammer
  • v1r0nv1r0n Posts: 4Registered Users
    maybe IF you have control over all those great units.. but playing in the campaign, or the Multiplayer Campaign Realms of the Mortal, you will only have DRYADS for a long time, and maybe archers or Spearmen against Wildwood Rangers/Wardancers you wont have a chance even with 6 units of Treekin against AI because (if u play on Difficulty Heavy/Very Heavy) the AI starts with much more infrastructure, higher tax rates what means more money to spend and the time you'll need to build up to TIER 3 to get Treekin, they'll beat the **** out of you with their units!

    The reason with "amber-free" Forest Dragons: i don't see a real advantage here, because what do you have to buy more and earlier? Dragons or Main-Units like Wildwood-R. or sth. like that.. As is said: the Wardancers are available at Tier-2, Argwylon gets NOTHING at tier-2 except they build Archers like Deepwood-Archers or Wardancers themselves.. but now tell me how much wardancers could i buy then? Of course not 12-14 like the AI does sometime!

    i just don't like the idea of beeing forced to buy ELVISH units or mainly Archers just for the win, if i intend to play an other faction... -.-
    That's just plain ****!

    I really love this game overall, but i'm not playing as Argwylon anymore out of these reasons.
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