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[campaign][skirmish] will we still be stuck with 20 unit card armies?

ma7moud_al_sharifma7moud_al_sharif Posts: 209Registered Users
some ppl are fine with it
some ppl hate these limitations
ofc its mostly a matter of preference. look at at ultimate general civil war. they did a lot of things right. i think the extremely strict unit count restriction is rly holding the tw as a franchise down.

discuss if ure interested
---Furthermore i am of the opinion, that the current Unit Count(20,21) must be lifted!!

appeal to CA:

skirmish related (applicable for historical titles):
new innovations in the ToB campaign look very promising! skirmish need that kind of revamp too!
pls, dont overemphasize unit r/p/s counter-matching as the hierarchical confluence of all decision making
- ! make unit formations (and perhaps abilities) great again! (charlemagne)
- ! same with LoS system! (tw:arena/UG:CivilWars)
- ! same with terrain (ridges) (tw:arena/shogun2/UG:CivilWars)
you've already made the tools!
just make use of them!


menu related (mp skirmish lobby):
* add "large army" option to quickmatch pls!
* have "large army" settings be tagged visually in lobby selector (so that all players have easier time in lobby select)
* pls introduce scheduled rank resets to quickmatch as means to repress unsportsmanlike conduct related to stat fetishism
* enable shared team funds (sum == opposition funds irrespective of player count) that all members can (optionally) submit to that facilitate the setup of uneven teams

campaign related:
+ kudos for adding a basic supply system to the ToB campaign
* for a much more elegant way of addressing autoresolve of not so decisive battles and how armies reinforce each other mount and blade's marshal system could b a fitting reference. mbe there is a way to integrate the marshal concept in one way or the other
-or-
* instead of imposing a hard cap of 20 units per army introduce a more organic approach of having lower ranking officers command ~ 10/15 units at max and higher ones up to ~ 40 (with supply, replenishment and all considered)
* * reinforcing armies in this case would trickle in so a count of 40 intact units is kept rather than exceed 40+ units
* dynamic quest/notification-event system (may b interesting for 3 kings)

+ thx for addressing spaghetti lines
+ kudos for adding a basic supply system to the ToB campaign


  • Tier1: Shogun 2 / Wh 2 / Warhammer
  • Tier2: Age of Charlemagne / Napoleon
  • Tier3: Attila / Medieval 2 / Rome
  • ....
  • Accident: Rome II

  • pending: ToB is yet to b acquired
  • pending: Three Kings not been released yet
image

Team Shadowgave
Team Cao Wei
wu xing graph

casual survey on tw skirmish battles
casual survey provisional analysis
let's learn about the diplomacy game first before comlaining about vassals!

Comments

  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Posts: 8,209Registered Users
    China is known for having massive battles with lots of soldiers...

    Hope more men per unit and more unit per army.
  • MattzoMattzo Member United KingdomPosts: 1,433Registered Users
    I find 20 a nice balance between army size and control.

    More can be very overwhelming. Note that quite a lot of people new to Warhammer have asked if there are mods for lowering it.

    So any change would have to be managed carefully.
    "Everything in war is simple. But the simplest thing is difficult."
  • ma7moud_al_sharifma7moud_al_sharif Posts: 209Registered Users
    i can see how the need of using pause constantly can totally break immersion. in the end though its rly just a matter of getting used to it. whether be it 20 or 40, i for one mostly just draw a double line with some additional forces on the flanks and some forward attachements. truth is though, current ui is not comfortable with 40 unit cards. still i think 40 units is much more enjoyable. also if we want to make things more interesting, with just 20 units at players disposal, one can throw many possible new innovations out the window.
    ---Furthermore i am of the opinion, that the current Unit Count(20,21) must be lifted!!

    appeal to CA:

    skirmish related (applicable for historical titles):
    new innovations in the ToB campaign look very promising! skirmish need that kind of revamp too!
    pls, dont overemphasize unit r/p/s counter-matching as the hierarchical confluence of all decision making
    - ! make unit formations (and perhaps abilities) great again! (charlemagne)
    - ! same with LoS system! (tw:arena/UG:CivilWars)
    - ! same with terrain (ridges) (tw:arena/shogun2/UG:CivilWars)
    you've already made the tools!
    just make use of them!


    menu related (mp skirmish lobby):
    * add "large army" option to quickmatch pls!
    * have "large army" settings be tagged visually in lobby selector (so that all players have easier time in lobby select)
    * pls introduce scheduled rank resets to quickmatch as means to repress unsportsmanlike conduct related to stat fetishism
    * enable shared team funds (sum == opposition funds irrespective of player count) that all members can (optionally) submit to that facilitate the setup of uneven teams

    campaign related:
    + kudos for adding a basic supply system to the ToB campaign
    * for a much more elegant way of addressing autoresolve of not so decisive battles and how armies reinforce each other mount and blade's marshal system could b a fitting reference. mbe there is a way to integrate the marshal concept in one way or the other
    -or-
    * instead of imposing a hard cap of 20 units per army introduce a more organic approach of having lower ranking officers command ~ 10/15 units at max and higher ones up to ~ 40 (with supply, replenishment and all considered)
    * * reinforcing armies in this case would trickle in so a count of 40 intact units is kept rather than exceed 40+ units
    * dynamic quest/notification-event system (may b interesting for 3 kings)

    + thx for addressing spaghetti lines
    + kudos for adding a basic supply system to the ToB campaign


    • Tier1: Shogun 2 / Wh 2 / Warhammer
    • Tier2: Age of Charlemagne / Napoleon
    • Tier3: Attila / Medieval 2 / Rome
    • ....
    • Accident: Rome II

    • pending: ToB is yet to b acquired
    • pending: Three Kings not been released yet
    image

    Team Shadowgave
    Team Cao Wei
    wu xing graph

    casual survey on tw skirmish battles
    casual survey provisional analysis
    let's learn about the diplomacy game first before comlaining about vassals!
  • ma7moud_al_sharifma7moud_al_sharif Posts: 209Registered Users
    perhaps 30 units would b a good compromise most fans would agree with. also perhaps tie unit count with general experience. a 6 star general can have max 30 unit cards while a 1 star general starts with 15 so new players can get used to it.
    ---Furthermore i am of the opinion, that the current Unit Count(20,21) must be lifted!!

    appeal to CA:

    skirmish related (applicable for historical titles):
    new innovations in the ToB campaign look very promising! skirmish need that kind of revamp too!
    pls, dont overemphasize unit r/p/s counter-matching as the hierarchical confluence of all decision making
    - ! make unit formations (and perhaps abilities) great again! (charlemagne)
    - ! same with LoS system! (tw:arena/UG:CivilWars)
    - ! same with terrain (ridges) (tw:arena/shogun2/UG:CivilWars)
    you've already made the tools!
    just make use of them!


    menu related (mp skirmish lobby):
    * add "large army" option to quickmatch pls!
    * have "large army" settings be tagged visually in lobby selector (so that all players have easier time in lobby select)
    * pls introduce scheduled rank resets to quickmatch as means to repress unsportsmanlike conduct related to stat fetishism
    * enable shared team funds (sum == opposition funds irrespective of player count) that all members can (optionally) submit to that facilitate the setup of uneven teams

    campaign related:
    + kudos for adding a basic supply system to the ToB campaign
    * for a much more elegant way of addressing autoresolve of not so decisive battles and how armies reinforce each other mount and blade's marshal system could b a fitting reference. mbe there is a way to integrate the marshal concept in one way or the other
    -or-
    * instead of imposing a hard cap of 20 units per army introduce a more organic approach of having lower ranking officers command ~ 10/15 units at max and higher ones up to ~ 40 (with supply, replenishment and all considered)
    * * reinforcing armies in this case would trickle in so a count of 40 intact units is kept rather than exceed 40+ units
    * dynamic quest/notification-event system (may b interesting for 3 kings)

    + thx for addressing spaghetti lines
    + kudos for adding a basic supply system to the ToB campaign


    • Tier1: Shogun 2 / Wh 2 / Warhammer
    • Tier2: Age of Charlemagne / Napoleon
    • Tier3: Attila / Medieval 2 / Rome
    • ....
    • Accident: Rome II

    • pending: ToB is yet to b acquired
    • pending: Three Kings not been released yet
    image

    Team Shadowgave
    Team Cao Wei
    wu xing graph

    casual survey on tw skirmish battles
    casual survey provisional analysis
    let's learn about the diplomacy game first before comlaining about vassals!
  • KrilralKrilral Member Posts: 908Registered Users
    I prefer the 20 unit limit. It's roughly the highest number of units I can control at any one time, which seems to be the case for many other players as well; at least from what you can hear around the internet.

    Besides, I don't see the point in having more units to control. It's not likely to increase the number of tactical options available to you. Does it really matter if you are performing your flanking maneuver with one unit or two units?

    I too have played Ultimate General: Civil War and that game did indeed get away fairly well with having a large number of controllable units. But it's also a very different game from the Total War series. Ultimate General is much (much) slower with battles easily lasting over an hour, and many of your units will often be standing idle in reserve. The game is also much less micro-intensive than a Total War game. You are making more large, broad maneuvers and being distracted for a few seconds is rarely punished very hardly. And even then it sometimes still becomes a bit too much, especially during some of the larger campaign battles. UG:CW was a really good game, but unless TW fundamentally changes the way it works, it doubt it can learn much from UG:CW.

    With all that being said though, I fully support larger units, along with larger (but also more interesting) battlefields.
  • SuliotSuliot Senior Member Posts: 652Registered Users
    edited January 2018
    Yeah, I prefer the 20 unit per army limit too. Forty units per army is just too much micro management I think. If you want 40 units just keep two armies closer together and fight with reinforcements. Kinda like Napoleon and his Army Corps system. :)

    I would like more soldiers per unit though.
    Post edited by Suliot on
  • LESAMALESAMA Member Posts: 1,016Registered Users

    perhaps 30 units would b a good compromise most fans would agree with. also perhaps tie unit count with general experience. a 6 star general can have max 30 unit cards while a 1 star general starts with 15 so new players can get used to it.

    Agreed! Overall more choices means better gameplay. Having higher generals command more troops seems a nice addition. This would effect you're choices were to put your 6 star general's and where to put the lower ones.

    Perhaps also add choices between recruiting local commanders (max force of 10-15) vs army commanders (15-30). Local commanders are used to fight off bandits, patrolling duties and strengthening already present city garrisons when invaded. Army commanders are used for attacking cities and fighting land battles. Each one should have certain campaign effects. For example a local commander improves siege hold out time, provincial happiness and trade & taxe income, has a higher movement bonus but can't recruit elite troops. Recruiting an army commander improves morale, let's you recruit elite troops and more units per army against lower upkeep but is slower and isn't able to garrison cities (due to it's size which drains local resources)

    To expand on the discussion. Ancient China was known for it's massive armies. It would be great if CA could increase the number of men per unit (laboratory style) to create massive armies.
  • LestaTLestaT Senior Member Posts: 3,054Registered Users
    I would prefer 200 units per card x 20 rather than 100 units per card x 40. Warhammer 2 Laboratory gives hope that we'll see 400-500 units per card being normal in the future games.
  • ma7moud_al_sharifma7moud_al_sharif Posts: 209Registered Users
    Krilral said:

    [...] I don't see the point in having more units to control. It's not likely to increase the number of tactical options available to you. Does it really matter if you are performing your flanking maneuver with one unit or two units?

    more than 20 units imo definitely changes the tactical nature of the game.
    greater numbers change how the environment, movement and stamina take effect on the battlemap. if the player got say 60 units instead of just 20, a choke point indeed becomes a choke point. if the player tries to stack units, terrain effects will influence the game multiple-fold.
    if we assume that combat resolve stays the same, unit deployment/formations and foreplanning will become more important. the bigger the armies become, the harder it gets to reinforce weakened parts and the more prone one is to overpowering pushes.
    with 20, the player wants to spread as wide as possible. unless the pace of the game would slow down threefold, 60 units could expose the player more to breakthroughs. adds a new layer.

    since fiddling with 40 unit cards, that got first introduced in shogun 2, i felt like the TWs r supposed to b played with at least 40 unit cards. mbe its rly just me and some hipster niche guys :C
    Krilral said:

    I prefer the 20 unit limit. It's roughly the highest number of units I can control at any one time, which seems to be the case for many other players as well; at least from what you can hear around the internet.

    dont forget, ur mate will have as much busywork controlling his army and responding to cavalry raids, unless he decides go all elite. anyway, large armies usually make for some hilarious mayhem.

    and people should not make the mistake to take warhammer as reference for how 40vs40 would pan out. the more grounded historical titles in comparison pale in terms of content/stuff to do on the skirmish map. in rome ii i ve probably played 70% of time on large army settings and it would have been 100% if ppl were more open to it. warhammer not so much.

    funnily though, more constraints in unit selection somewhat poses its own funny layer of strategic dilemma in terms of assembling an army but still the trade off is not worth it imo. its just my suspicion, but having large army setting ticked tends to make army selection more forgivable.

    if, say, combat pace would slow down, would u guys still prefer 20 unit armies over 30/40/60?
    i would gladly trade for some juicy 40+ units




    ---Furthermore i am of the opinion, that the current Unit Count(20,21) must be lifted!!

    appeal to CA:

    skirmish related (applicable for historical titles):
    new innovations in the ToB campaign look very promising! skirmish need that kind of revamp too!
    pls, dont overemphasize unit r/p/s counter-matching as the hierarchical confluence of all decision making
    - ! make unit formations (and perhaps abilities) great again! (charlemagne)
    - ! same with LoS system! (tw:arena/UG:CivilWars)
    - ! same with terrain (ridges) (tw:arena/shogun2/UG:CivilWars)
    you've already made the tools!
    just make use of them!


    menu related (mp skirmish lobby):
    * add "large army" option to quickmatch pls!
    * have "large army" settings be tagged visually in lobby selector (so that all players have easier time in lobby select)
    * pls introduce scheduled rank resets to quickmatch as means to repress unsportsmanlike conduct related to stat fetishism
    * enable shared team funds (sum == opposition funds irrespective of player count) that all members can (optionally) submit to that facilitate the setup of uneven teams

    campaign related:
    + kudos for adding a basic supply system to the ToB campaign
    * for a much more elegant way of addressing autoresolve of not so decisive battles and how armies reinforce each other mount and blade's marshal system could b a fitting reference. mbe there is a way to integrate the marshal concept in one way or the other
    -or-
    * instead of imposing a hard cap of 20 units per army introduce a more organic approach of having lower ranking officers command ~ 10/15 units at max and higher ones up to ~ 40 (with supply, replenishment and all considered)
    * * reinforcing armies in this case would trickle in so a count of 40 intact units is kept rather than exceed 40+ units
    * dynamic quest/notification-event system (may b interesting for 3 kings)

    + thx for addressing spaghetti lines
    + kudos for adding a basic supply system to the ToB campaign


    • Tier1: Shogun 2 / Wh 2 / Warhammer
    • Tier2: Age of Charlemagne / Napoleon
    • Tier3: Attila / Medieval 2 / Rome
    • ....
    • Accident: Rome II

    • pending: ToB is yet to b acquired
    • pending: Three Kings not been released yet
    image

    Team Shadowgave
    Team Cao Wei
    wu xing graph

    casual survey on tw skirmish battles
    casual survey provisional analysis
    let's learn about the diplomacy game first before comlaining about vassals!
  • ma7moud_al_sharifma7moud_al_sharif Posts: 209Registered Users
    edited January 2018
    in historical titles, 20 just feels so wrong. once u go 40 u never go back :V

    also im just a casual player playing random average plebs, some of u know how bad the average tw player is. :smiley: while not 100% accurate i still think my claims somewhere have some practical truth though. but still u may take my observations with a grain of salt.

    whether one gets to control 40 or 60 probably does not make that much of a difference but 20 or 30 more so. if u ask me 20 units is on the low extreme end.
    ---Furthermore i am of the opinion, that the current Unit Count(20,21) must be lifted!!

    appeal to CA:

    skirmish related (applicable for historical titles):
    new innovations in the ToB campaign look very promising! skirmish need that kind of revamp too!
    pls, dont overemphasize unit r/p/s counter-matching as the hierarchical confluence of all decision making
    - ! make unit formations (and perhaps abilities) great again! (charlemagne)
    - ! same with LoS system! (tw:arena/UG:CivilWars)
    - ! same with terrain (ridges) (tw:arena/shogun2/UG:CivilWars)
    you've already made the tools!
    just make use of them!


    menu related (mp skirmish lobby):
    * add "large army" option to quickmatch pls!
    * have "large army" settings be tagged visually in lobby selector (so that all players have easier time in lobby select)
    * pls introduce scheduled rank resets to quickmatch as means to repress unsportsmanlike conduct related to stat fetishism
    * enable shared team funds (sum == opposition funds irrespective of player count) that all members can (optionally) submit to that facilitate the setup of uneven teams

    campaign related:
    + kudos for adding a basic supply system to the ToB campaign
    * for a much more elegant way of addressing autoresolve of not so decisive battles and how armies reinforce each other mount and blade's marshal system could b a fitting reference. mbe there is a way to integrate the marshal concept in one way or the other
    -or-
    * instead of imposing a hard cap of 20 units per army introduce a more organic approach of having lower ranking officers command ~ 10/15 units at max and higher ones up to ~ 40 (with supply, replenishment and all considered)
    * * reinforcing armies in this case would trickle in so a count of 40 intact units is kept rather than exceed 40+ units
    * dynamic quest/notification-event system (may b interesting for 3 kings)

    + thx for addressing spaghetti lines
    + kudos for adding a basic supply system to the ToB campaign


    • Tier1: Shogun 2 / Wh 2 / Warhammer
    • Tier2: Age of Charlemagne / Napoleon
    • Tier3: Attila / Medieval 2 / Rome
    • ....
    • Accident: Rome II

    • pending: ToB is yet to b acquired
    • pending: Three Kings not been released yet
    image

    Team Shadowgave
    Team Cao Wei
    wu xing graph

    casual survey on tw skirmish battles
    casual survey provisional analysis
    let's learn about the diplomacy game first before comlaining about vassals!
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Posts: 8,209Registered Users
    The current 20vs20 battle seems small for a game set in China which is known for massive battles.
  • AryndelinAryndelin Junior Member Posts: 1,425Registered Users
    To give an example. Cao Cao vs Liu - Sun alliance at chi bi.
    Cao Cao is calculated to have an army of roughly 250k - 260k while the Liu - Sun alliance had 50k. (the 1 million troop thingie was fictional)

    So yes, i hope they up the number of soldiers quite abit. And hopefully through army size.
  • LestaTLestaT Senior Member Posts: 3,054Registered Users
    Aryndelin said:

    To give an example. Cao Cao vs Liu - Sun alliance at chi bi.
    Cao Cao is calculated to have an army of roughly 250k - 260k while the Liu - Sun alliance had 50k. (the 1 million troop thingie was fictional)

    So yes, i hope they up the number of soldiers quite abit. And hopefully through army size.

    500 units per card should be the norm if the Laboratory code is used as a based.
  • AryndelinAryndelin Junior Member Posts: 1,425Registered Users
    LestaT said:

    Aryndelin said:

    To give an example. Cao Cao vs Liu - Sun alliance at chi bi.
    Cao Cao is calculated to have an army of roughly 250k - 260k while the Liu - Sun alliance had 50k. (the 1 million troop thingie was fictional)

    So yes, i hope they up the number of soldiers quite abit. And hopefully through army size.

    500 units per card should be the norm if the Laboratory code is used as a based.
    Even that might be too small scaled in the case of Chi Bi. :P
  • LestaTLestaT Senior Member Posts: 3,054Registered Users
    Aryndelin said:

    LestaT said:

    Aryndelin said:

    To give an example. Cao Cao vs Liu - Sun alliance at chi bi.
    Cao Cao is calculated to have an army of roughly 250k - 260k while the Liu - Sun alliance had 50k. (the 1 million troop thingie was fictional)

    So yes, i hope they up the number of soldiers quite abit. And hopefully through army size.

    500 units per card should be the norm if the Laboratory code is used as a based.
    Even that might be too small scaled in the case of Chi Bi. :P
    Well, not every customers are using super computers :)
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Posts: 8,209Registered Users
    edited January 2018
    LestaT said:

    Aryndelin said:

    LestaT said:

    Aryndelin said:

    To give an example. Cao Cao vs Liu - Sun alliance at chi bi.
    Cao Cao is calculated to have an army of roughly 250k - 260k while the Liu - Sun alliance had 50k. (the 1 million troop thingie was fictional)

    So yes, i hope they up the number of soldiers quite abit. And hopefully through army size.

    500 units per card should be the norm if the Laboratory code is used as a based.
    Even that might be too small scaled in the case of Chi Bi. :P
    Well, not every customers are using super computers :)
    That is why you can adjust the unit size in options.

    I hope Ultra size to be ultra, its possible proved by Laboratory in Warhammer.
  • wingren013wingren013 Posts: 868Registered Users
    edited January 2018
    Its a UI issue. When you have the big 40 v 40 battles your unit display takes up a lot of screen space.

    Units per card is more a performance/pathfinding issue.
  • iceniiicenii Senior Member The PhilippinesPosts: 1,328Registered Users

    perhaps 30 units would b a good compromise most fans would agree with. also perhaps tie unit count with general experience. a 6 star general can have max 30 unit cards while a 1 star general starts with 15 so new players can get used to it.

    Something which i posted in a previous thread/forum, as i have been playing since S1 i certainly feel it's time for CA too push the envelope on unit count and indeed increase unit size. This is 1 area where CA have never tried too advance the series, they're quite willing to try new ideas in virtually every other aspect of the game.
    I cannot force you to believe the truth but i can allow you to believe a lie. Quote by me " Icenii ".
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Posts: 9,904Registered Users
    They said before Warhammer was released they experimented with different sizes but still found 20 the most player friendly number. This was during the big controversy pre launch about no option to control reinforcements for 40 unit battles. They eventually gave us the tick box like previous TW's for people who feel they can control 40 units.

    For CA to even consider removing this feature tells me they think most players are not capable of controlling more than 20 so expecting a change in this regard is futile.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • LESAMALESAMA Member Posts: 1,016Registered Users
    I think 20 is perfect without artillery/general counting as a unit. They could make a system where you link three cohorts to one unit. For example an unit of spearman consists of three cohorts of 100 man each. This way you get the look and feel of larger battles while keeping it manageable without pausing every few seconds.

    Furthermore I never got it why artillery and generals/agents are taking up slots. This could better depend on the skill of the general. For example a fully developed skill tree or certain retainers provide a max of three artillery pieces.

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