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Old World Rite's will they make it in? if they make it in what do you think they will be?

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  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 4,959
    Hopeflly they add rites. I have too less things to do on the campaignmap :(
  • madskittlsmadskittls Registered Users Posts: 294
    Okay seriously? Can we get actual meaningful mechanics rather than shoeing in OW to fit into NW faction rites? The current rites really are not that great.

    Cool the Skaven can recruit two "unique heroes." THAT HAVE ONLY ONE PURPOSE AND THEY'RE THE SAME. Sabotage a city... "Woo." They can also have more PO and growth for a couple turns and they can also INCREASE DIPLOMACY WITH SKAVEN... Once again "woo."

    Playing as the HE and Lizardmen, I basically just spammed the construction rite every time and very rarely used other ones. Using them didn't make me feel more "Elfgi or Lizard-y" just made me feel like I was playing a game, making a large investment of cash to marginally save later...

    In my opinion, I would much rather see real, new, meaningful mechanics that make you feel like the faction you're playing as, rather than having more "game-y" rites. (In fairness the Plague mechanic is very Skavenly, but I'd much rather see a political intrigue game for the Empire, a loyalty + show em whose boss for the Greenskins... Stuff like that rather than... Here's a growth + PO buff for 2000 gold. Here's a faction diplomacy buff for 4,000.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,515
    I don't know what the technical limits of the Rites mechanic are but they seem awfully unoriginal. You can find all Rites' effects through other means while playing the game. Skaven agents spawning is just agent spawn events, only triggered by the player instead of random/ prescripted. You can get X bonus to Y effect for Z turns from so many other parts of the game.
    Even the unlock of recruiting Slann-Priest or Black Ark can be found in unlocking Legendary Lords.

    The only practical argument for Rites is that OW factions are boring or lacking in similar power creep. In which case just straight up buff those factions?
    Also, Dwarfs and Beastmen have VERY similar effect to Rites through Grombrindal and Dark Moon events. Hell even with the Vortex factions the rites tend to seem superfluous, as in you could have just added those effects through regular means.
    Guess they just kept it as a distinct thing for purposes of marketing. So far it works pretty well.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,437

    Okay seriously? Can we get actual meaningful mechanics rather than shoeing in OW to fit into NW faction rites? The current rites really are not that great.

    Cool the Skaven can recruit two "unique heroes." THAT HAVE ONLY ONE PURPOSE AND THEY'RE THE SAME. Sabotage a city... "Woo." They can also have more PO and growth for a couple turns and they can also INCREASE DIPLOMACY WITH SKAVEN... Once again "woo."

    Playing as the HE and Lizardmen, I basically just spammed the construction rite every time and very rarely used other ones. Using them didn't make me feel more "Elfgi or Lizard-y" just made me feel like I was playing a game, making a large investment of cash to marginally save later...

    In my opinion, I would much rather see real, new, meaningful mechanics that make you feel like the faction you're playing as, rather than having more "game-y" rites. (In fairness the Plague mechanic is very Skavenly, but I'd much rather see a political intrigue game for the Empire, a loyalty + show em whose boss for the Greenskins... Stuff like that rather than... Here's a growth + PO buff for 2000 gold. Here's a faction diplomacy buff for 4,000.

    Even if not all the Rites are very useful, it's still better to have them then to have nothing. At this point it's clear that Rites should be an general feature, and the Old World's Factions don't get them mainly because of lack of work, and not because any loreful reasons.
  • madskittlsmadskittls Registered Users Posts: 294
    Tayvar said:

    Okay seriously? Can we get actual meaningful mechanics rather than shoeing in OW to fit into NW faction rites? The current rites really are not that great.

    Cool the Skaven can recruit two "unique heroes." THAT HAVE ONLY ONE PURPOSE AND THEY'RE THE SAME. Sabotage a city... "Woo." They can also have more PO and growth for a couple turns and they can also INCREASE DIPLOMACY WITH SKAVEN... Once again "woo."

    Playing as the HE and Lizardmen, I basically just spammed the construction rite every time and very rarely used other ones. Using them didn't make me feel more "Elfgi or Lizard-y" just made me feel like I was playing a game, making a large investment of cash to marginally save later...

    In my opinion, I would much rather see real, new, meaningful mechanics that make you feel like the faction you're playing as, rather than having more "game-y" rites. (In fairness the Plague mechanic is very Skavenly, but I'd much rather see a political intrigue game for the Empire, a loyalty + show em whose boss for the Greenskins... Stuff like that rather than... Here's a growth + PO buff for 2000 gold. Here's a faction diplomacy buff for 4,000.

    Even if not all the Rites are very useful, it's still better to have them then to have nothing. At this point it's clear that Rites should be an general feature, and the Old World's Factions don't get them mainly because of lack of work, and not because any loreful reasons.
    I'm not saying, "let's ask for nothing." I'm saying let's ask for (quoting myself)
    "real, new, meaningful mechanics that make you feel like the faction you're playing as"
    Instead of asking for just "generic rites."
    In conclusion: Do I want rites for OW factions? If they make sense, sure, why not? But if they come at the expense of actual new mechanics, my answer would be, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! NOT TOBY!"
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,515
    If Rites served very race-specific benefits that's something else, but they also mostly serve as additional general buffs that introduce power creep. With things like treasure hunting and general global events, actually don't need Rites that reduce construction costs or upkeep, or grant XP bonuses to such and such, because there are so many other ways to gain these benefits.

    If it was things like Skaven getting more food or decreased food consumption per turn, or reduced penalties in high Skaven corruption regions, then that's original because you really can't get that sort of bonus playing the game otherwise. Even the way the mechanics worked (ie some races can toggle while others are free but longer cooldown) could have made Rites vastly different than other mechanics. But, they're not.

    Rites ought to have served to plug gaps in ways other bonuses do not, that would have made them distinctive. But Rites for their large part do not work this way. More importantly, making Rites work like this removes the power creep and makes them much more trivial compared to Old World factions' lack of it. This would make Rites new and present real meaningful improvements to the game.

    The same need only apply to Old World factions if they decide to do it. You want Rites for everyone then at least do it well. Giving certain factions certain things just because some other factions have them is actually harmful to product quality.

    In any case I think the best way to go forward on this is faction-by faction basis. I think most of us agree that if OW factions get Rites, the blandest factions ought to get them first since they need the rounding out the most (and probably could benefit from power creep).

    Warriors of Chaos seem the best faction to start since they do not have things like Dark Moon events that confer similar temporary buffs. Like Norsca in Game1 they work on four different levels, each with three tiers.

    Distinguishing concepts:
    -Name: I'll call them Marks of XYZ since Marks of Chaos is a thing
    -Chaos favour metre: like Grudges or Chivalry, you have a metre bar that represents Undivided favour: progress is achieved by doing otherwise normal actions while under the effects of rites, so defeating an enemy army while using the rite for Khorne progresses the metre, whereas winning the battle without the rite does not. This way you are heavily incentivized to use the rites feature to gain major bonuses. Reaching max means you are champion of Chaos Undivided and you will then be able to gain benefits from all four rites without any penalties.
    -Multiple methods: you can opt to go all out on one particular god favour first and maximize benefits quickly, or try an even approach and reach Champion Undivided status to reduce penalties first.
    -Ranked benefits: like the Norscan version of favour, over time as you achieve progress, Marks provide more powerful buffs, so there is great incentive to do play out certain progression methods over others to achieve certain marks for optimum effectiveness
    -Competitive yet undivided: achieving certain marks first makes achieving the others more difficult, so there is an element of juggling between favouring one over other marks, versus trying to go for an even approach; however unlike Norsca, you can ultimately gain equal favour from all four.
    -Rift specializations: Unlike Norsca razing settlements only serve as a region-specific bonus, not a means to gain favour. depending on which one you dedicate, the type of Chaos Rift confers different effects to that razed region.
    Unique followers: every time you activate a mark, you gain a follower of that different Mark. IE activating Mark of Khorne spawns a Khornate Champion follower.

    Mark of Khorne:
    battle related stuff like increased weapon damage and charge bonus
    penalties: reduced casualty replenishment rate, combat defenses
    ranks: improved benefits, reduced penalties
    Rift specialization: reduced leadership to enemy armies in region
    Khornate Champion: raises leadership to Lord's army

    Mark of Nurgle
    campaign related stuff like unlocking special Hero missions (spread plague)
    penalties: increased change of Heroes getting wounded if unsuccessful,
    ranks: greater plague damage if successful, less chance of being wounded if caught
    Rift specialization: faster corruption rate, increased casualties to enemy armies (or general debuff to enemy armies when fighting them in the region)
    Nurglite Champion: unlocks an army-wide heal spell

    Mark of Slaanesh
    horde related stuff like reducing attrition from all sources, including nearby hordes
    penalties: reduced combat efficiency
    Slaaneshi Champion: increases replenishment rate

    Mark of Tzeench
    increased research rate, winds of magic reserve, and other magic related stuff
    penalties: increased miscast chance, more susceptible to enemy spells
    Khornate Champion: increases campaign movement range

    Ranks: the higher the rank, the more powerful the benefits and less to penalties. For example, having Mark of Tzeench activated at a high level means the miscast chance is practically negligible; at max rank the penalties no longer exist.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
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