Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Boris Todbringer NEEDS a SERIOUS BUFF

BRiiTASH2BRiiTASH2 Posts: 383Registered Users
Okay so I was going through the patch notes and couldnt help but fell dissappointed. One of the more interesting and more immediate balances that needed to happen was that of Boris Todbringer. This Lord is grossly underpowered and I cant help but struggle to understand why CA would put him in this state.

To be quite blunt, for a follower of Ulric he's a bit of a bitch, even by Stirlander Standards. This mans battle prowess ingame is a joke. I put him up against various other lords to test his ability in 1v1 combat and was left dissappointed.

Boris vs Chaos Lord.

I stripped Boris and the Chaos Lors of their abilities and it was a straight up 1v1 slugfest. In every engagement, each were tied for about 80% of the duel with neither at a clear disadvantage or advantage during the duel, yet each time Boris lost, as he routs before either combatant lands the killing blow. This is despite Boris costing +50 more than a Chaos Lord. How does this happen you ask. Simple, the Chaos Lord grossly outperforms him in every way but 2.

Compared to Boris a Chaos Lord has +132 health, +15 armour, -1 speed, +5 melee attack, +5 melee defence, +20 weapon strength, -10 charge bonus. All this whilst costing 50 less.

From this 2 conclusions can be drawn, either Boris needs a buff or Chaos lords need a debuff. As I can see no evidence of the latter happening, that only leaves the option for Boris to recieve a Buff. There is no justification for Boris to be at a loss vs a non Legendary Lord whilst costing more.

It ia only when testing a fully decked Boris with all his abilities and items against a fully decked Chaos Lord, do things turn in Boris' favour. This however comes at a price of Boris costing +416 more than the Chaos Lord a difference which is enough to afford a unit of Chaos Marauders at bronze chevron 2, who when accompanying the Choas Lord into battle, will result in Boris getting his grizzled veteran ass kicked unceremouniously kicked repeatedly.
This is perhaps one of the greatest insults that a Legendary Lord can at max strength can face, being defeated by a Generic Lord at max strength paired with the weakest infantry unit that faction has to accommodate the cost difference.


Boris vs Sigvald

When tested against other Chaos Lords such as Sigvald the result is even more shocking. Despite only costing 100 more than Boris, Sigvald has a significant advantage over him. +684, + 15 armour (-20% missile shield parry), +15 leadership, +6 speed, +5 melee attack, +10 melee defence, +30 weapon strength, same charge bonus.

All this, for less than the cost of equiping Boris with his Signature ability Crush the Weak, which coincidently costs 241 (+141 the cost of a base sigvald) which even if you did send Boris with into combat against Sigvald, still wouldnt be enough to help him win the duel. Sigvalds innate skill simply makes him too difficult for Boris to defeat even when Boris costs more. Even sending Boris into Combat with The White Cloak of Ulric isnt enough to help him defeat Sigvald, despite taking his total cost to over +372 that of a base Sigvald the Magnificent bastard.

To add insult to injury, a fully decked Boris with all of his abilities and items equipped costing 1966 pairing off against a fully decked sigvald with all his abilities and items costing 1655 and both Lords given enough time for then to activate them before engaging results in Boris gettting the positive **** kicked out of him repeatedly time and again. Maybe if he had his other eye he might be able to land more of his blows?

Anyone who isnt a complete masochist can see that our one eyed battle scarred bastard with his magnificent muttonchops needs a buff to make him less of a bretonnian man-at-arms and more of the Grizzled War Loving Veteran Melee expert that he is supossed to be.

Now this is where things get interesting, how to balance boris? This is ultimately up to CA, but with the information i have gathered and evidence presented, I would love to hear the suggestions that the community has to offer. Should all of the Chaos Lord units get nerfed to balance them vs Boris, or should Boris be revisited and actually be made into a competent melee expert as his Unit Info screen implies.

I will post my own recommendations for Boris once other people have been given the chance.

Comments

  • ystyst Posts: 6,161Registered Users
    edited January 2018
    R u insane? he borderlines as one of the most op lords out there. ppl wanna make him superman

    Stop bypassing the word filter.
    Post edited by dge1 on
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
    Unit stats compare courtesy of Seal62 https://total-war-unit-compare.herokuapp.com/
  • WakaWaka3000WakaWaka3000 Junior Member Posts: 452Registered Users
    Boris was already one of the most-picked empire lords because of regen and crush the weak, and he has a good price too.

    In terms of multiplayer and unit-to-unit balance, he really doesn't need a buff.
  • MukipMukip Posts: 576Registered Users
    Boris on foot or horse is not a cost effective fighter compared to most other lords for his price. He does seem to pay slightly over the odds for his minor stat boost when on foot or horse, it's more like 100 gold upgrade than a 200 gold upgrade. Although he only pays 100 gold extra when on a griffon and his extra stats over the general are worth it there. That is also how most people use him.

    Relative cost effectiveness aside, Chaos Lords are supposed to be very powerful and experienced warriors in the setting and in tabletop. Regular humans are not on their level. Everybody in Warhammer is a "grizzled veteran", including and especially Chaos Lords. Most of them are probably older than Boris is.

    "Legendary Lord" is just a label that can mean anything. It's more of a category for named characters than anything else. You shouldn't read too much into it.

    Boris Todbringer's abilities obviously don't shine in 1v1 duels. Two of his abilities are auras that work best in an engagement with multiple units. His regeneration doesn't suit him on foot either, since it works best if he can disengage to heal. It's quite obvious that he gets the most value from supporting his army and not just duelling other lords.
  • EizoEizo Posts: 1,006Registered Users
    it could just be that Empire is in a weak state right now so Boris is not shining or performing as much as he use to be in game one.

    but He and Volkmar are probably your two safest choice as LL right now considering that Karl Franz, Balthazar Gelt, General of the empire, and Arch-lector are more lack-luster choices.
  • BRiiTASH2BRiiTASH2 Posts: 383Registered Users

    Boris was already one of the most-picked empire lords because of regen and crush the weak, and he has a good price too.

    In terms of multiplayer and unit-to-unit balance, he really doesn't need a buff.

    Run the same duels and come back and say thay with a straight face.
  • EizoEizo Posts: 1,006Registered Users
    BRiiTASH2 said:

    Boris was already one of the most-picked empire lords because of regen and crush the weak, and he has a good price too.

    In terms of multiplayer and unit-to-unit balance, he really doesn't need a buff.

    Run the same duels and come back and say thay with a straight face.
    I think they want Karl Franz to be your Dueling lord for the Empire but he hasn't reach that state of power just yet. Boris is better at fighting blobs of units because of his debuff aura.
  • BRiiTASH2BRiiTASH2 Posts: 383Registered Users
    Mukip said:

    Boris on foot or horse is not a cost effective fighter compared to most other lords for his price. He does seem to pay slightly over the odds for his minor stat boost when on foot or horse, it's more like 100 gold upgrade than a 200 gold upgrade. Although he only pays 100 gold extra when on a griffon and his extra stats over the general are worth it there. That is also how most people use him.

    Relative cost effectiveness aside, Chaos Lords are supposed to be very powerful and experienced warriors in the setting and in tabletop. Regular humans are not on their level. Everybody in Warhammer is a "grizzled veteran", including and especially Chaos Lords. Most of them are probably older than Boris is.

    "Legendary Lord" is just a label that can mean anything. It's more of a category for named characters than anything else. You shouldn't read too much into it.

    Boris Todbringer's abilities obviously don't shine in 1v1 duels. Two of his abilities are auras that work best in an engagement with multiple units. His regeneration doesn't suit him on foot either, since it works best if he can disengage to heal. It's quite obvious that he gets the most value from supporting his army and not just duelling other lords.

    Boris fulfilling a support role is pointless as Volkmar does a better job of that with his leadership, melee attack, damage resistance, despelling, etc. The idea that Boris is a support character conflicts with his Deadly Onslaught and debuff abilities. The fact that he has Melee expert in his bio also implies he is intended to duel by breaking down his enemies combat prowess. Volkmar doesnt have this implying he is to play a more passive/support role.
  • WakaWaka3000WakaWaka3000 Junior Member Posts: 452Registered Users
    BRiiTASH2 said:

    Boris was already one of the most-picked empire lords because of regen and crush the weak, and he has a good price too.

    In terms of multiplayer and unit-to-unit balance, he really doesn't need a buff.

    Run the same duels and come back and say thay with a straight face.
    I don't need to run the duels myself to say that. I trust you that Sigvald beats Boris badly in that fight. However, I think the fight you set up is inherently unfair. Sigvald has the duellist trait. He's MEANT to win fights like this one. It should be no surprise that this is the case.

    The reason boris is such a good lord is because crush the weak is a great AoE debuff, and regen is always good. Essentially what this means is that he is a great lord to run around the battlefield and dive in on fights. The -leadership from crush the weak stacks with fear+terror so he can rout enemies easily, and the regen means he can get hitpoints back before the next dive.

    That type of play synergizes well with how flyers are generally used as cycle charging units in this game, and if you cycle charge well, you can make lords like boris trade above their weight class in lord fights as well.
  • BRiiTASH2BRiiTASH2 Posts: 383Registered Users
    Eizo said:

    BRiiTASH2 said:

    Boris was already one of the most-picked empire lords because of regen and crush the weak, and he has a good price too.

    In terms of multiplayer and unit-to-unit balance, he really doesn't need a buff.

    Run the same duels and come back and say thay with a straight face.
    I think they want Karl Franz to be your Dueling lord for the Empire but he hasn't reach that state of power just yet. Boris is better at fighting blobs of units because of his debuff aura.
    The problem then is whilst boris is off skirmishing and taking out missile units or enemy cavalry, the other teams Legendary Lord is free to massacre the rest of your army and win the battle,
  • zer0zer0 Posts: 304Registered Users
    Foot Lords without mount options, i.e. Vlad, Sigvald, Grimgor, Grombrindal etc. tend to be better on foot than lords with mount options.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,260Registered Users
    Well, Boris is actually a pretty powerful character because he has free regeneration, thus allowing you much more flexibility. Testing him in a 1v1 fight, with no mount is a wrong way to test him and will produce unusable results.

    Boris in the air is a huge threat, because he has some nice abilities, good damage potential and it offers him mobility to fly away from danger, regenerate and go back where he's needed.

    That's why Boris is often considered as the most competitive choice for the empire and a very powerful lord option. He's value is so much more than just winning or losing against another lord on foot.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USAPosts: 18,755Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    Off topic and trolling comments deleted, along with those quoting said posts with a response. Stay on the thread topic and avoid making derogatory remarks about other members with opposing opinions.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • BRiiTASH2BRiiTASH2 Posts: 383Registered Users

    Well, Boris is actually a pretty powerful character because he has free regeneration, thus allowing you much more flexibility. Testing him in a 1v1 fight, with no mount is a wrong way to test him and will produce unusable results.

    Boris in the air is a huge threat, because he has some nice abilities, good damage potential and it offers him mobility to fly away from danger, regenerate and go back where he's needed.

    That's why Boris is often considered as the most competitive choice for the empire and a very powerful lord option. He's value is so much more than just winning or losing against another lord on foot.

    Well, Boris is actually a pretty powerful character because he has free regeneration, thus allowing you much more flexibility. Testing him in a 1v1 fight, with no mount is a wrong way to test him and will produce unusable results.

    Boris in the air is a huge threat, because he has some nice abilities, good damage potential and it offers him mobility to fly away from danger, regenerate and go back where he's needed.

    That's why Boris is often considered as the most competitive choice for the empire and a very powerful lord option. He's value is so much more than just winning or losing against another lord on foot.

    The problem is that Boris in the air isnt as powerful as he should be, especially on his Imperial Griffon mount, as it has less leadership, armour, melee attack and defence than Karl Franz on Deathclaw, not to mention Karl has his stand your ground to buff his leadership by 16 and melee defence by 27, as well as his Runefang and Ghal Marhaz ability to give him his +40 large bonus making him the more effective airiel combatant, something that Boris simply cannot compete with. And both Karl and Boris on their griffons lose to nearly every lord that has a dragon mount now that they all havr breath attacks.
    And to make things even worse, Boris' Griffon doesnt even have its bloodroar ability which makes it less effective at routing enemies whilst all the dragon mounts were given 3 devastating breath attacks that can annihalate an entire unit of artillery, infantry, missile units, etc and causing the rest to break and rout. These breath attacks are even dealing enough damage against the griffons that they can take over half their health away and results in Boris routing before the engagement begins.
    Boris on a griffon is one of the weakest lords when engaged in ariel combat.
    I will be running some more tests tonight and will report the results but I am noy holding much confidence in Boris and his ability to hold his own against anything more than a manticore or great eagle, and thats without them being accompanied by a chaos or elven hero riding them.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,260Registered Users
    As I've said, the value of a lord is not just whether he can defeat another lord or a powerful monster. When you bring Karl Franz, you need to worry about healing him. With Boris you don't, he regenerates on his own. Fear and Terror are powerful abilities.

    Simply fly around, find where an enemy unit at 50% healtj is engaged in combat with your unit and charge it in the back. Rear charge, fear and terror should rout most units almost instantly.

    If you're fighting a losing battle with Boris, move away and heal, or look for some easy opportunities for routing while he regenerates. If you're facing a lot of air units, from which you can't run away, look for a battle where your anti large infantry is winning. Simply land Boris there, if the enemy flyers follow him, they'll land into your anti large. Or withdraw in the path of your Handgunners. Enemy flyers will have to give up or suffer a lot of damage.

    When mentioning Elves, it appears you're talking about High Elves. In general, I wouldn't bring lords in the air against them. It's a good rule of a thumb, unless you're absolutely certain you what you're doing.

    It is a different play style. Female Glade Lord is considered the most competitive Wood Elven lord option. She won't beat many other lords in a straight up one on one fight, but the utility she brings is huge.
  • BRiiTASH2BRiiTASH2 Posts: 383Registered Users

    As I've said, the value of a lord is not just whether he can defeat another lord or a powerful monster. When you bring Karl Franz, you need to worry about healing him. With Boris you don't, he regenerates on his own. Fear and Terror are powerful abilities.

    Simply fly around, find where an enemy unit at 50% healtj is engaged in combat with your unit and charge it in the back. Rear charge, fear and terror should rout most units almost instantly.

    If you're fighting a losing battle with Boris, move away and heal, or look for some easy opportunities for routing while he regenerates. If you're facing a lot of air units, from which you can't run away, look for a battle where your anti large infantry is winning. Simply land Boris there, if the enemy flyers follow him, they'll land into your anti large. Or withdraw in the path of your Handgunners. Enemy flyers will have to give up or suffer a lot of damage.

    When mentioning Elves, it appears you're talking about High Elves. In general, I wouldn't bring lords in the air against them. It's a good rule of a thumb, unless you're absolutely certain you what you're doing.

    It is a different play style. Female Glade Lord is considered the most competitive Wood Elven lord option. She won't beat many other lords in a straight up one on one fight, but the utility she brings is huge.

    The problem with Boris is he is far to easy to break and rout. I cant recall how many battles i have had boris rout on a griffon when he has over 50% of his health left. The fact that Karl Franz is immune to psychology is immense, and his 80 leadership and the extra 28 leadership buffs from his stand your ground, runefang and the brace ability means he lasts almost twice as long as boris in battle and more often than not dies before routing. With Boris its the opposite. He routs before he inflicts any meaningful damage in a duel and if pursued will never return to the battle.
Sign In or Register to comment.