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Monsters and how to fix them.

OndjageOndjage Junior MemberPosts: 544Registered Users
Hey there! I'd like to give some thoughts on how to change the battlefields use of monsters and perhaps make the monsters that are bad a little better and the ones that break the game a little worse.

Any land monster that has 66 Speed or above with a small hitbox should never go above these values: 70 Speed, 80 Armour and 40 Melee Defence and 6500 Hp.

And should in the Roster have no other way to heal then by using of the winds of magic pool to heal. (atleast the healing effects should be drasiticly reduced by any other form or shape then magic)

Its exactly these monsters that are fast and with their small hitboxes that screw up the internal balance between the factions because if you dont have the tools in the roster to stop them you can never lock them down and kill them.

Now for the other monsters the grindy ones like the hydra, mammoth or hellpit just to name some who are also slow. You can give these between 70-100 armour depending on the HP pool. The higher the Hp pool the lower the armour. This is why the Spider has always felt like its a balanced unit because it has a low hp pool with high armour. (even though it is slightly to expensive)

Their melee defence should be around 35-40 Always never lower or higher simply because when its too low it dies to fast in the grind and when its too high it becomes difficult to deal with outside of ranged units or dedicated monster killing single entities.

I have not added the skaven bells into this simply because they are mostly wierd because of their attack animations helping them dodge ranged attacks.

Comments

  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    alright i don't see what's the fuss about ,i know you exaggerate about somethings on stream but even in warhammer 1 when most said shaggohts are fine aka balance mod,you still raged about it

    Now its warhammer 2 of course things have changed.most importantly same things with ore armor and healingand support unlike a shaggoth but we like to target shaggoth...


    Please read last 2 points it important,i i think generalizing it as monsters is wrong and harmfull since rarely see some mosnters like trolls,kroixgors,dragon ogres regular,minatours (maybe not) with healing dinos like carnasour or cheap basaitladons
    Meanwhile turning a blind eye to likes of demi's


    Data : so testing with surround clearly shows most monsters aren't worth it

    Real case scenario : but monsters have more mas,and strategically can' move through stuff with their mass(important note will come late) and force them to blob (which players shouldn't its their fault )

    Where the hate comes From : Because in the end of the match what happens is some faction monsters are last left ,player LOSE AND Rage omg so bull***..e.tc

    BU they FOrget some of these monsters cost a Ton and they do Evidently from tourney data do rarely their worth of damage

    Tournamnet Vs QB : so seeing how its comign from tourney players Aside FROM LIZARDMEN,i never see those monsters,chaos if even played don't even bring shaggoths now,last kings cup rarely saw a necrosphynx

    Now if its quick battle @CA_Duck can provide the data of their usage vs other units


    What's the Real Issue : MOnsters with healing AKA LIzaRDMEN
    Kora-gar and just recently the match between shetland vs pip showed how basically healing monsters dragged out the game
    What's THE REAL REAL Issue and fix : CAVALARY MASS,they don't pin these monsters effectively IMo and most warhammer factions have such low mass on their cavs,Monsters performance should stay the same but they should be able to pin Monsters.

    ^^ read last 2 points above for quick read and again its my opinion so please take it light

    Balance Is A Lie

  • OndjageOndjage Junior Member Posts: 544Registered Users
    edited January 2018

    alright i don't see what's the fuss about ,i know you exaggerate about somethings on stream but even in warhammer 1 when most said shaggohts are fine aka balance mod,you still raged about it

    Now its warhammer 2 of course things have changed.most importantly same things with ore armor and healingand support unlike a shaggoth but we like to target shaggoth...


    ^^ read last 2 points above for quick read and again its my opinion so please take it light

    I didnt single out the shaggoth here...... if anything the normal shaggoth could gain +10 armour...... Its a formula to avoid making stupid op monsters in the future..... And kholek has been silly since he got 100 armour and he should never have been faster then cavalry in the first place.

    And monsters means monsters not monstrous infantry like ogres etc, these are a different class and i did not adress them in this post.

    Secondly i dont condone monsters costing 2000+ In my opinion monsters should cost less and have less of an impact so that you can field more units and avoid these monster mash armies.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,782Registered Users
    SO basically monster armour/MD be relevant to their speed?

    and healing only through spells that require WOM otherwise reduced effect?

    I get what you're saying i think but i think it would be important to just take a look at all the monsters out there and rebalance them.

    I think its important to look at attack animations also, the warhammer 2 monsters have so many animations that disperse units around them and allow for them to escape easily when surrounded, perhaps monsters could be affected more when surrounded (such as lower MD/armour?), im not sure if im rite but perhaps forcing them to stick to their target for 3sec could be good, instead of allowing players to constantly charge new target to get out of trouble.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    Ondjage said:

    alright i don't see what's the fuss about ,i know you exaggerate about somethings on stream but even in warhammer 1 when most said shaggohts are fine aka balance mod,you still raged about it

    Now its warhammer 2 of course things have changed.most importantly same things with ore armor and healingand support unlike a shaggoth but we like to target shaggoth...


    ^^ read last 2 points above for quick read and again its my opinion so please take it light

    I didnt single out the shaggoth here...... if anything the normal shaggoth could gain +10 armour...... Its a formula to avoid making stupid op monsters in the future..... And kholek has been silly since he got 100 armour and he should never have been faster then cavalry in the first place.

    And monsters means monsters not monstrous infantry like ogres etc, these are a different class and i did not adress them in this post.

    Secondly i dont condone monsters costing 2000+ In my opinion monsters should cost less and have less of an impact so that you can field more units and avoid these monster mash armies.
    so you want lower speed then..?? i am fine with this as long as they are buffed at what their role is

    heck both shaggohts and kholek can get speed and missile resist nerf but gain less attack interval and more bonus vs large

    So what do you think about the cav mass issues i mentioned i think it the biggest culprit people tend to overlook..??
    and i think carnasour attack animation needs to be looked at to,so its effective in combat but doesn't miss missiles all the time .

    and yes you should make a distinction not for us but for ca devs who sometimes just take a look at things on surface,i don't wanna see nerfed minatours and trolls on next patch, so might wanna edit it

    Balance Is A Lie

  • Busa1227Busa1227 Posts: 3,118Registered Users
    edited January 2018
    Part of the problem came when monsters started being able to wreck cavalry units (even antilarge ones) by themselves. I mean, I still remember that if in WH1 you failed to screen your monsters properly, they got surrounded and killed by cavalry but it is not the case anymore. The monsters performance gets insanely improved when they are screened with infantry units, so these guys being as strong as they are now for themselves in melee, si simply too much if a decent player is able to use them correctly.

    I remember these days when monters like kholeck got surrounded by DGKs Halberds and easily killed... This was probably too bad for single entity monsters but the current situation is just the opposite. Think that there are factions designed to have weak infantry units and they haven't access to monsters nor AP missile units, how could these factions deal with monsters if not with cavalry units?. As is the situation, if you don't have Antilarge monsters or AP missile units you are simply done against some factions and there is no much you can do.

    On the other hand, It's true that part of the problem is these monsters having access to healing and Chaos is the least of the problems currently but I also think that something should change regarding single entity armored monsters.

  • SpaniardSpaniard Posts: 914Registered Users
    Ondjage said:

    This is why the Spider has always felt like its a balanced unit because it has a low hp pool with high armour. (even though it is slightly to expensive)

    You mean low MD? Spider has more HP than Kroq Gar on carno or even Shaggoths.

    But yea I do get your point. You bring Setra on a warsphinx plus another Warphinx, one necrosphinx and a Scorpion. Spend the rest of 5K gold on infantry, some factions aren’t able to deal with this many monsters at once.

    I agree these monsters need more weaknesses. However nerfing their stats should come with cost reduction. Otherwise they will not be cost effective against dragons, gorebulls, hellpits, etc

    Not a bad idea making them not heal, but what about a Star Dragon for example? They are faster and have more MD than let’s say Shaggoths. Should they not be able to heal as well?


  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,248Registered Users



    and yes you should make a distinction not for us but for ca devs who sometimes just take a look at things on surface,i don't wanna see nerfed minatours and trolls on next patch, so might wanna edit it

    Yeah, CA devs balance the game with info they take from glancing on forum posts.
  • SpaniardSpaniard Posts: 914Registered Users
    Busa1227 said:



    I remember these days when monters like kholeck got surrounded by DGKs Halberds and easily killed...

    Kholek was 300 cheaper back then though.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    oh yeah forgot about stardragon,if rng goes aliitle left,star dragon can kill a shaggoth,and its pretty close and its flying ,more anti infy from stats and general purpose ,has/had great breath

    can be healed by apotheosis,which is just warhammer 1 spirit leech in reverse,but lest not complain about apotheosis since its not available for chaos ....meanwhile leech does same damage but is more expenive

    Balance Is A Lie

  • Busa1227Busa1227 Posts: 3,118Registered Users
    edited January 2018
    Spaniard said:

    Busa1227 said:



    I remember these days when monters like kholeck got surrounded by DGKs Halberds and easily killed...

    Kholek was 300 cheaper back then though.
    Yes, 300 cheaper but even 2 globin archers or cavalry killed him in no time. Anyway, quoting only this part of my post looks like if I would be asking for making kholeck as weak as before when it isn't the case. I still remember when kholeck got 100 armor, everyone said: Kholeck has been overbuffed (included Chaos fans except KhorneFlakes of course). Yes, in WH2 Kholeck is now more expensive but he has more HP, some archers units got -1 AP damage, gunners are not as effective as before and net spells have got huge nerfs...

    Anyway, I repeat what I said before: " It's true that part of the problem is these monsters having access to healing and Chaos is the least of the problems currently".

    Maybe most of archers units should get +1 AP damage again or something else should change.

  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    Busa1227 said:

    Spaniard said:

    Busa1227 said:



    I remember these days when monters like kholeck got surrounded by DGKs Halberds and easily killed...

    Kholek was 300 cheaper back then though.
    Yes, 300 cheaper but even 2 globin archers or cavalry killed him in no time. Anyway, quoting only this part of my post looks like if I would be asking for making kholeck as weak as before when it isn't the case. I still remember when kholeck got 100 armor, everyone said: Kholeck has been overbuffed (included Chaos fans except KhorneFlakes of course). Yes, in WH2 Kholeck is now more expensive but he has more HP, some archers units got -1 AP damage, gunners are not as effective as before and net spells have got huge nerfs...

    Anyway, I repeat what I said before: " It's true that part of the problem is these monsters having access to healing and Chaos is the least of the problems currently".

    Maybe most of archers units should get +1 AP damage again or something else should change.
    and i still stand by that in wh1 he needed that as it was on tt,kholek costs a ton now and doesn't even having good abilities like kroq-gar..

    Balance Is A Lie

  • ystyst Posts: 6,074Registered Users
    Spells should not be factored in. Not everyone brings life.

    Monster should balance by itself, u take spells in its a dif game. They can heal all they want, throw an enfeeble and that monster is useless and then uve countless other spells.

    Trex have hit box changed big time. Which is fair i suppose. Afterall just a $1600 unit.

    They need variety and should not be stuck in the same range of att or def. They r doing ok right now, hasnt been any impossible counters
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  • OndjageOndjage Junior Member Posts: 544Registered Users
    Spaniard said:

    Ondjage said:

    This is why the Spider has always felt like its a balanced unit because it has a low hp pool with high armour. (even though it is slightly to expensive)

    You mean low MD? Spider has more HP than Kroq Gar on carno or even Shaggoths.

    But yea I do get your point. You bring Setra on a warsphinx plus another Warphinx, one necrosphinx and a Scorpion. Spend the rest of 5K gold on infantry, some factions aren’t able to deal with this many monsters at once.

    I agree these monsters need more weaknesses. However nerfing their stats should come with cost reduction. Otherwise they will not be cost effective against dragons, gorebulls, hellpits, etc

    Not a bad idea making them not heal, but what about a Star Dragon for example? They are faster and have more MD than let’s say Shaggoths. Should they not be able to heal as well?


    Sure spider has more HP then Kroq Gar as it bloody well should considering its hitbox is twice as large minimum, and its slower. It gets surrounded much easier and its defence is much much lower, ergo a balanced monster. But still the HP pool of an arachnarok is one of the lowest of all the big monsters.

    Their High stats is whats keeping them alive all the bloody time against all cav and counters except ranged. High MD and high armour on monsters is canerous.

    And if you dare to compare a dragon to a shaggoth or a carnosaur you are barking up the wrong tree..... The second a dragon lands and stays more then 5 seconds against any anti large cav unit it dies horribly fast because its hitbox is massive....... Try a unit of cold one riders against a Carno/shaggoth/warsphinx and then against a dragon. The dragon will actually die and the others will murder them. Dragons get surrounded when they are on the ground and a star dragon mount costs 1650..... thats twice the cost of a Warsphnix and 150 away from being twice the cost of a carnosaur.........
  • OndjageOndjage Junior Member Posts: 544Registered Users
    edited January 2018

    oh yeah forgot about stardragon,if rng goes aliitle left,star dragon can kill a shaggoth,and its pretty close and its flying ,more anti infy from stats and general purpose ,has/had great breath

    can be healed by apotheosis,which is just warhammer 1 spirit leech in reverse,but lest not complain about apotheosis since its not available for chaos ....meanwhile leech does same damage but is more expenive

    Apotheosis is a cancerous spell, and should cost a lot more winds and have a longer cooldown, i've said this on stream and on the forums before.

    But the dragon is much more vulnerable when its on the ground then a shaggoth and it costs 400 more. I have no problems with the shaggoths right now because the chaos infantry roster is weak again for some reason, but the second chaos get their infantry back in line the shaggoth and kholek is the first units in the roster that needs fixing.

    Are the shaggoths the least of these troublesome units.... for sure no doubt about that, but it still has the same issue just less and thus needs fixing just as much as the others.

    Fixing a unit does not mean giving it game breaking nerfs....... it might be as little as -5 MD or in the shaggoths case -6 too -10 speed is what i would do..... Being faster then cav is never a good thing for small hitboxed monsters.
  • AfanAfan Posts: 361Registered Users
    i see the wierdness of this debate. some people here are saying 'arachnarok is a balanced monster'.

    how many times do you see arachnarok in competitive multiplayer ?

  • salsichasalsicha Posts: 3,572Registered Users
    Afan said:

    i see the wierdness of this debate. some people here are saying 'arachnarok is a balanced monster'.

    how many times do you see arachnarok in competitive multiplayer ?

    Greenskins need a “hit squad” (unless you go with Azhag on wyvern). Against some factions that can just be a lord and big boss, against others you need more. HE is a good example, I always get lots of value out of the Spider Queen against HE. Skarsnik with an Arachnarok is a potent combo.
  • NightOfTheDeadNightOfTheDead Member Posts: 590Registered Users
    edited January 2018
    I don't see how making all monsters following the same template could be good.




  • PippingtonPippington Posts: 2,026Registered Users
    edited January 2018
    The RoR one, lots. It's in the balanced place where it's a good choice in some matchups and a poor choice in others, as opposed to the Carno/Sphinx/Shaggoth position of pretty much always being good.


    Get on, Kroq-Gar, we're going shopping

  • OndjageOndjage Junior Member Posts: 544Registered Users

    I don't see how making all monsters following the same template could be good.

    its not about following a template its about having parameters that monsters of certain types shouldnt cross
  • NightOfTheDeadNightOfTheDead Member Posts: 590Registered Users
    Ondjage said:

    I don't see how making all monsters following the same template could be good.

    its not about following a template its about having parameters that monsters of certain types shouldnt cross
    Sure, but can we get down to specifics then. Take specific monsters and apply your idea. For example, your proposed changes to monsters of lizardmen and Tomb kings. Because it is hard to discuss general idea until we see it specifically.




  • SpaniardSpaniard Posts: 914Registered Users
    Ondjage said:

    Spaniard said:

    Ondjage said:

    This is why the Spider has always felt like its a balanced unit because it has a low hp pool with high armour. (even though it is slightly to expensive)

    You mean low MD? Spider has more HP than Kroq Gar on carno or even Shaggoths.

    But yea I do get your point. You bring Setra on a warsphinx plus another Warphinx, one necrosphinx and a Scorpion. Spend the rest of 5K gold on infantry, some factions aren’t able to deal with this many monsters at once.

    I agree these monsters need more weaknesses. However nerfing their stats should come with cost reduction. Otherwise they will not be cost effective against dragons, gorebulls, hellpits, etc

    Not a bad idea making them not heal, but what about a Star Dragon for example? They are faster and have more MD than let’s say Shaggoths. Should they not be able to heal as well?


    Try a unit of cold one riders against a Carno/shaggoth/warsphinx and then against a dragon. The dragon will actually die and the others will murder them.
    I tested this since you asked. The cold one knights were no match for the Star Dragon. Then I tried 2 of them against the dragon, was a very close fight but the dragon still managed to kill both units. No breaths nor healing involved.

    I want your thoughts on giants. Are they balanced? We only see them against Vampires sometimes and not even. How would you fix them ?


  • VistahmVistahm Posts: 224Registered Users
    Spaniard said:

    Ondjage said:

    Spaniard said:

    Ondjage said:

    This is why the Spider has always felt like its a balanced unit because it has a low hp pool with high armour. (even though it is slightly to expensive)

    You mean low MD? Spider has more HP than Kroq Gar on carno or even Shaggoths.

    But yea I do get your point. You bring Setra on a warsphinx plus another Warphinx, one necrosphinx and a Scorpion. Spend the rest of 5K gold on infantry, some factions aren’t able to deal with this many monsters at once.

    I agree these monsters need more weaknesses. However nerfing their stats should come with cost reduction. Otherwise they will not be cost effective against dragons, gorebulls, hellpits, etc

    Not a bad idea making them not heal, but what about a Star Dragon for example? They are faster and have more MD than let’s say Shaggoths. Should they not be able to heal as well?


    Try a unit of cold one riders against a Carno/shaggoth/warsphinx and then against a dragon. The dragon will actually die and the others will murder them.
    I tested this since you asked. The cold one knights were no match for the Star Dragon. Then I tried 2 of them against the dragon, was a very close fight but the dragon still managed to kill both units. No breaths nor healing involved.

    I want your thoughts on giants. Are they balanced? We only see them against Vampires sometimes and not even. How would you fix them ?


    Try demis with halberds spaniard and you would see the difference between the dragon and shaggoth.
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  • snowflakesnowflake Posts: 103Registered Users
    edited February 2018
    But I think monsters now in a good spot that they should be. TK have all the monsters that armored, speedy, lots of health but they are still not OP. So called 'balanced monster', such as giants and Arachnaroks, they are suck :D some people might say that ' yo you need to learn how to use them they have their role in some situation' so what? the fact is that they are suck. No one scared about 'What should I do if my opponent have Arachnarok spider in his roster?' now. They are mediocre. They are easy prey. plz stop pretend that they are cool units. If GS can have any monster that other factions have(EXCEPT poor hellpit) they will gladly throw their spider in a trashcan.
  • OndjageOndjage Junior Member Posts: 544Registered Users
    snowflake said:

    But I think monsters now in a good spot that they should be. TK have all the monsters that armored, speedy, lots of health but they are still not OP. So called 'balanced monster', such as giants and Arachnaroks, they are suck :D some people might say that ' yo you need to learn how to use them they have their role in some situation' so what? the fact is that they are suck. No one scared about 'What should I do if my opponent have Arachnarok spider in his roster?' now. They are mediocre. They are easy prey. plz stop pretend that they are cool units. If GS can have any monster that other factions have(EXCEPT poor hellpit) they will gladly throw their spider in a trashcan.

    They are balanced because they have counters, I never said they were great the arachanrok needs to cost 1750-1800 to be viable and the giant could drop down to 1400 and get a slight missile resist of lets say 15% and it would be good but still have counters.

    The armoured speedy monsters with high hp pools are not balanced because its so easy to use them with huge effect and archers barely hit them with any missiles and they outright kill most cav units that are supposed to be their counter.
  • OndjageOndjage Junior Member Posts: 544Registered Users
    Spaniard said:

    Ondjage said:

    Spaniard said:

    Ondjage said:

    This is why the Spider has always felt like its a balanced unit because it has a low hp pool with high armour. (even though it is slightly to expensive)

    You mean low MD? Spider has more HP than Kroq Gar on carno or even Shaggoths.

    But yea I do get your point. You bring Setra on a warsphinx plus another Warphinx, one necrosphinx and a Scorpion. Spend the rest of 5K gold on infantry, some factions aren’t able to deal with this many monsters at once.

    I agree these monsters need more weaknesses. However nerfing their stats should come with cost reduction. Otherwise they will not be cost effective against dragons, gorebulls, hellpits, etc

    Not a bad idea making them not heal, but what about a Star Dragon for example? They are faster and have more MD than let’s say Shaggoths. Should they not be able to heal as well?


    Try a unit of cold one riders against a Carno/shaggoth/warsphinx and then against a dragon. The dragon will actually die and the others will murder them.
    I tested this since you asked. The cold one knights were no match for the Star Dragon. Then I tried 2 of them against the dragon, was a very close fight but the dragon still managed to kill both units. No breaths nor healing involved.

    I want your thoughts on giants. Are they balanced? We only see them against Vampires sometimes and not even. How would you fix them ?


    I'l be the first to admit that cold ones were not the greatest unit to test against, their terrible stats and low hp means the dragon will splash them down very quickly. But try against dragon ogres, Demis and the TK halberd unit and you will see the difference.

    Giants are slightly too weak and VC need more mass and damage on blood knights to be viable against them.

    i think a price decrease of 50-100 and a slight missile resist of 15% could make the giant better, or you could increase its melee defence by 10 and missile resist by 15% that way it would be better at taking less damage from single monsters. (and take away the knockdown on giants......) its silly.
  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    For once... i agree with Khorne Flakes.

    Multiple entity monsters are rarely cost effective. Normally only used in very specific match ups, i think they are not a problem at all. In fact, i think they probably need buffs as a general rule.

    Regarding single entity monsters, i don't think they are broken per se. Oh, some of them are performing ok, but no amazingly. They cost the same as almost a full infantry line. They should be powerful.


    Having said that, it is true that Bretonnia, VC and the GS have some problems with monsters. But i think it has more to do with their roster being either incomplete (GS, which btw, have ap anti large cavalry, so not too shabby against monsters)
    Ondjage said:

    snowflake said:

    But I think monsters now in a good spot that they should be. TK have all the monsters that armored, speedy, lots of health but they are still not OP. So called 'balanced monster', such as giants and Arachnaroks, they are suck :D some people might say that ' yo you need to learn how to use them they have their role in some situation' so what? the fact is that they are suck. No one scared about 'What should I do if my opponent have Arachnarok spider in his roster?' now. They are mediocre. They are easy prey. plz stop pretend that they are cool units. If GS can have any monster that other factions have(EXCEPT poor hellpit) they will gladly throw their spider in a trashcan.

    They are balanced because they have counters, I never said they were great the arachanrok needs to cost 1750-1800 to be viable and the giant could drop down to 1400 and get a slight missile resist of lets say 15% and it would be good but still have counters.

    The armoured speedy monsters with high hp pools are not balanced because its so easy to use them with huge effect and archers barely hit them with any missiles and they outright kill most cav units that are supposed to be their counter.
    Ok, now you are talking my language. I mean, most of the WH1 monsters (forest dragon excluded) feel UP as ****.

    But i can agree that monsters like the Carnosaur may need something to make them more counterable, even if that means reducing their cost.
  • ArchonPrimeArchonPrime Posts: 1,087Registered Users
    How can people say TK monster are balanced,Haven't they seen the charge/attack animation of WarSphinx?it's so fuking crazy...
  • OndjageOndjage Junior Member Posts: 544Registered Users

    How can people say TK monster are balanced,Haven't they seen the charge/attack animation of WarSphinx?it's so fuking crazy...

    indeed Archon, the warsphinx is probably one of the biggest offenders, and its especially insulting when it costs 800, when a dragon mount is now 1200-1350 for the normal dragon mounts and 1650 for the star dragon..... and the sphinx is most times simply just better, fewer weaknesses and crazy animations.

    I get trying to please the majority of single players by adding cool animations, but damn tone it down.
  • kenjigreatkenjigreat Posts: 490Registered Users
    edited February 2018
    Ondjage said:

    How can people say TK monster are balanced,Haven't they seen the charge/attack animation of WarSphinx?it's so fuking crazy...

    indeed Archon, the warsphinx is probably one of the biggest offenders, and its especially insulting when it costs 800, when a dragon mount is now 1200-1350 for the normal dragon mounts and 1650 for the star dragon..... and the sphinx is most times simply just better, fewer weaknesses and crazy animations.

    I get trying to please the majority of single players by adding cool animations, but damn tone it down.
    Am I the only one that finds the bow ubshabti is too cheap for what it does?

    Doesn't Settra get an even cheaper War Sphinx while Malekith's Dragon is the most expensive Black Dragon?

    To be honest, I think the speed of Monsters needs to be looked at.

    You can't even Skirmish Kroq with Bow cav because he can reach max speed of 90 + 36%.

    He can catch almost any lord on a horse and shotgun blast them. The only way I've beaten TK monsters is by having bow cav survive till the end of the game and skirmishing the crap out of them. Since Ubshabti and monsters are way faster than any infantry. Bringing bow Infantry especially when they have a free summon of Ubshabti that move at 50 speed is sucide.
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