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Saving the Hydra - official message from PETA.

h455566hhh455566hh Posts: 38Registered Users
Hydra is an interesting unit to play with in single player. It's tanky and has an AOE attack - good features to take care of unsupported blobs in AI armies. Hydra was supposed to fill the same role in multiplayer, but for that it's too slow and too vulnerable to anti-large ranged units. The same problems that plague other anti-infantry monsters. Probably a straight forward fix would be to give the Hydra physical resistance and maybe a silver shield to block ranged fire. This way archers won't be able to kill it in seconds, another solution can be a speed buff to 50 or so, like the tomb scorpion's speed. This way the dark elf monster can get to the fighting faster and do it's job.

But i was thinking of a different way to make this unit a desired choice for dark elf players in online. Since it already has a form of a ranged attack as it's ability. Could a complete role switch be made by making hydra a specialist artillery unit, similar to Cygor.

Considering how powerful it's fire breath is the firing rate and accuracy can be taken from the Cygor. Witch I think is in a very good place after the last patch - not too accurate and not too inaccurate. And the ranged can be lowered to 255, like that of the ushabti. So the Hydra won't feel like complete copy of the Cygor as far as functionality goes.

My proposed idea is to create a unit that would give the High Elf roster new tools - tanky monster artillery that can damage at range, but can also be used in melee if necessary. In the artillery role it's slow speed is no longer a huge problem like before because it has a ranged attack, even if it's only 255 units. And at that range it's fire breath can have the same spread as the casket of souls and the same damage per single "fire ball". I don't have access to all the numbers so actual stats of the "close range artillery Hydra" are up to different people to decide.

The idea is to make Hydra useful by repurposing it from a failed melee anti-infantry monster unit to something that ushabti are right now. An intermediate range monster that's good at ranged attacks and has melee stats good enough to protect itself from flanking cavalry and be used as support melee unit. I think CA created an interesting unit niche with ushabti that can be applied to other units and broadening the available Dark Elf arsenal, for example.

Comments

  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 1,084Registered Users
    h455566hh said:

    Hydra is an interesting unit to play with in single player. It's tanky and has an AOE attack - good features to take care of unsupported blobs in AI armies. Hydra was supposed to fill the same role in multiplayer, but for that it's too slow and too vulnerable to anti-large ranged units. The same problems that plague other anti-infantry monsters. Probably a straight forward fix would be to give the Hydra physical resistance and maybe a silver shield to block ranged fire. This way archers won't be able to kill it in seconds, another solution can be a speed buff to 50 or so, like the tomb scorpion's speed. This way the dark elf monster can get to the fighting faster and do it's job.

    But i was thinking of a different way to make this unit a desired choice for dark elf players in online. Since it already has a form of a ranged attack as it's ability. Could a complete role switch be made by making hydra a specialist artillery unit, similar to Cygor.

    Considering how powerful it's fire breath is the firing rate and accuracy can be taken from the Cygor. Witch I think is in a very good place after the last patch - not too accurate and not too inaccurate. And the ranged can be lowered to 255, like that of the ushabti. So the Hydra won't feel like complete copy of the Cygor as far as functionality goes.

    My proposed idea is to create a unit that would give the High Elf roster new tools - tanky monster artillery that can damage at range, but can also be used in melee if necessary. In the artillery role it's slow speed is no longer a huge problem like before because it has a ranged attack, even if it's only 255 units. And at that range it's fire breath can have the same spread as the casket of souls and the same damage per single "fire ball". I don't have access to all the numbers so actual stats of the "close range artillery Hydra" are up to different people to decide.

    The idea is to make Hydra useful by repurposing it from a failed melee anti-infantry monster unit to something that ushabti are right now. An intermediate range monster that's good at ranged attacks and has melee stats good enough to protect itself from flanking cavalry and be used as support melee unit. I think CA created an interesting unit niche with ushabti that can be applied to other units and broadening the available Dark Elf arsenal, for example.

    I don,t like this way of game design, started with dwarfs. They were too weak against chariots, and CA buffed them in several patches. Today they are so overbuffed, that cav, chariots and monst. inf. fail to break their lines. It is realy disgusting - unit that is immune to it's counter. You are suggesting to make monster, that is tanky to missles. It is BAD idea.
  • h455566hhh455566hh Posts: 38Registered Users
    I don,t like this way of game design, started with dwarfs. They were too weak against chariots, and CA buffed them in several patches. Today they are so overbuffed, that cav, chariots and monst. inf. fail to break their lines. It is realy disgusting - unit that is immune to it's counter. You are suggesting to make monster, that is tanky to missles. It is BAD idea.

    First - have you read all of my post? I guess not...

    Second - dwarves aren't that bad. You need to be on top of your micro to beat them, but their not that bad that it's warrant more whining on the forums requesting nerf bat carpet bombing.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    edited February 2018
    If you think the problem is ranged units specifically then wouldn't the most logical suggestion be increasing it's missile resistance and only it's missile resistance? Not that I agree with you but you kinda went overboard in trying to say something that could have been summarized in a few words.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,171Registered Users
    Totally bad suggestion. Left me traumatised also.
  • BMNOBLE981BMNOBLE981 Senior Member Posts: 1,208Registered Users
    There is nothing wrong with the unit, your just facing real opponents not an AI, that realize its a threat and know how to deal with it.

    If a unit is too weak alone give it some support from other units in your army don't expect the game to buff the unit against the things designed to counter it. (And people in single player will face them in larger numbers than you ever see in multiplayer, they need an effective way to counter them)

    If missile units are shooting it(Who can blame them its a big pin cushion) have your own missile units target them, if artillery is firing upon your hydra, get into a shooting match with your own artillery or flank it with cavalry.

    The hydra is slow it should be advancing with your main infantry line so it can get support if a unit of anti large attacks it. If you have it alone on the flank enemy anti large cavalry/monsters(even infantry) will intercept it before you can give it support, since a skilled player will have tied up your nearby units to prevent them coming to the Hydra's aid.

    You can't expect tactics that work against the AI to work against a real person.

    Even if you got the buffs you wanted for the unit, it wont stop real people making it a priority target and killing it relatively quickly, it just might last a few more seconds take a few more enemy troops with it that's it.

    It wont fill the role you want in multiplayer and make the unit more of a pain when fighting half stacks full of them in single player.
    Dr Zoidberg "We fight over matters of honour, and whether or not abbreviations count in scrabble. THEY DON'T"

    “My fault. What I said in the guild was incorrect: rather than ‘death is certain if you follow me’, I actually meant ‘come along and I shall slaughter the lot of you’.”

    Ainz Ooal Gown Overlord Light Novels
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,405Registered Users
    Well not sylver shield, because it doesnt have one, haha but missile resist would do


  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,171Registered Users
    Kranox said:

    Well not sylver shield, because it doesnt have one, haha but missile resist would do

    No, a snake doesn't have missile resistance.
  • h455566hhh455566hh Posts: 38Registered Users
    Do you people even read anything past the first paragraph?

    "But i was thinking of a different way to make this unit a desired choice for dark elf players in online. Since it already has a form of a ranged attack as it's ability. Could a complete role switch be made by making hydra a specialist artillery unit, similar to Cygor.

    Considering how powerful it's fire breath is the firing rate and accuracy can be taken from the Cygor. Witch I think is in a very good place after the last patch - not too accurate and not too inaccurate. And the ranged can be lowered to 255, like that of the ushabti. So the Hydra won't feel like complete copy of the Cygor as far as functionality goes.

    My proposed idea is to create a unit that would give the High Elf roster new tools - tanky monster artillery that can damage at range, but can also be used in melee if necessary. In the artillery role it's slow speed is no longer a huge problem like before because it has a ranged attack, even if it's only 255 units. And at that range it's fire breath can have the same spread as the casket of souls and the same damage per single "fire ball". I don't have access to all the numbers so actual stats of the "close range artillery Hydra" are up to different people to decide. "
  • BMNOBLE981BMNOBLE981 Senior Member Posts: 1,208Registered Users
    h455566hh said:

    Do you people even read anything past the first paragraph?

    "But i was thinking of a different way to make this unit a desired choice for dark elf players in online. Since it already has a form of a ranged attack as it's ability. Could a complete role switch be made by making hydra a specialist artillery unit, similar to Cygor.

    Considering how powerful it's fire breath is the firing rate and accuracy can be taken from the Cygor. Witch I think is in a very good place after the last patch - not too accurate and not too inaccurate. And the ranged can be lowered to 255, like that of the ushabti. So the Hydra won't feel like complete copy of the Cygor as far as functionality goes.

    My proposed idea is to create a unit that would give the High Elf roster new tools - tanky monster artillery that can damage at range, but can also be used in melee if necessary. In the artillery role it's slow speed is no longer a huge problem like before because it has a ranged attack, even if it's only 255 units. And at that range it's fire breath can have the same spread as the casket of souls and the same damage per single "fire ball". I don't have access to all the numbers so actual stats of the "close range artillery Hydra" are up to different people to decide. "




    There breath attack is short ranged like that of a Dragon, you can't just change the unit to a monster artillery piece, just because you find its current role lacking in multiplayer performance.

    It still works well in single player. As for not reading anything past the first paragraph you might want to give your last one a re read. Last time I checked the Hydra was Dark Elf unit.
    Dr Zoidberg "We fight over matters of honour, and whether or not abbreviations count in scrabble. THEY DON'T"

    “My fault. What I said in the guild was incorrect: rather than ‘death is certain if you follow me’, I actually meant ‘come along and I shall slaughter the lot of you’.”

    Ainz Ooal Gown Overlord Light Novels
  • h455566hhh455566hh Posts: 38Registered Users
    "There breath attack is short ranged like that of a Dragon, you can't just change the unit to a monster artillery piece, just because you find its current role lacking in multiplayer performance.

    It still works well in single player. As for not reading anything past the first paragraph you might want to give your last one a re read. Last time I checked the Hydra was Dark Elf unit."

    I just punched through my skull with a facepalm.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,241Registered Users
    edited February 2018
    h455566hh said:

    I just punched through my skull with a facepalm.

    Thanks for doing that.

    Hydra is a highly regenable monster with multiple self heal charges which r like 1k+ each. Armor isnt amazing which i wish they would add in 15-30 more and maybe 5-10 more def. But they r frikking nowhere 1 shot kill with 35% missile resist, the thickest of skins even surpassing drag in this game of 25%

    For the price they r highly viable due to flaming breath.

    Compare then with skaven abo and ull consider urself lucky
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  • DavielebbDavielebb Posts: 792Registered Users
    I dont think theres much of an issue with the Hydra, tho i agree it could use a small speed buff.
    The issue is that its an anti infantry monster and DE already have amazing infantry and ranged, theres just no real reason to take a Hydra over say, executioners or some shades in a MP battle. Its great in campaign because in campaign money is a non issue and AI doesnt know how to prioritise targets and focus fire its ranged.
    But in MP cost effectiveness and versatility is everything, just not much reason to take a monster like that same way greenskins never take giants except against VC, hell its the same with WE that pretty much never take Tree men, these units are just too expensive for what they can do and rarely if ever actually pay for themselves, also they are extremely vulnerable to a lot of different units.
    If you really want to use a Hydra in MP you can do, its probably still a great choice vs factions with weak or no ranged like Greenskins and VC,
    A good way to use units like a Hydra, since its not exactly "slow" is to deliberately have it in front of your main infantry line when you charge tempting the enemy to focus fire on it, then just zigzag, youl nullify the majority of the incoming damage and even if it takes like 30% damage its still going to get into combat and do its job disrupting and causing terror, with the added advantage that your expensive vulnerable to ranged units like executioners get into combat without taking massive damage from the opening volleys.
  • h455566hhh455566hh Posts: 38Registered Users
    yst said:

    h455566hh said:

    I just punched through my skull with a facepalm.

    Thanks for doing that.

    Hydra is a highly regenable monster with multiple self heal charges which r like 1k+ each. Armor isnt amazing which i wish they would add in 15-30 more and maybe 5-10 more def. But they r frikking nowhere 1 shot kill with 35% missile resist, the thickest of skins even surpassing drag in this game of 25%

    For the price they r highly viable due to flaming breath.

    Compare then with skaven abo and ull consider urself lucky
    Why are you in MP forum if you clearly never used Hydra in MP? The unit simply doesn't work. I made it clear in my OP.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,241Registered Users
    edited February 2018
    just buff their armor and def and get it iver with
    Post edited by yst on
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  • DavielebbDavielebb Posts: 792Registered Users
    They dont need any buffs, the unit isnt underpowered its just not a great unit for MP
  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    yst said:

    h455566hh said:

    I just punched through my skull with a facepalm.

    Thanks for doing that.

    Hydra is a highly regenable monster with multiple self heal charges which r like 1k+ each. Armor isnt amazing which i wish they would add in 15-30 more and maybe 5-10 more def. But they r frikking nowhere 1 shot kill with 35% missile resist, the thickest of skins even surpassing drag in this game of 25%

    For the price they r highly viable due to flaming breath.

    Compare then with skaven abo and ull consider urself lucky
    I think that was nerfed:

    From the patch noted:


    War Hydra: +100 HP & Another Takes Its Place +1 max use.

    Davielebb said:

    They dont need any buffs, the unit isnt underpowered its just not a great unit for MP

    If a unit isn't great in any match up it needs either buffs or a cost reduction.


    Having said that, the Hydra doesn't need a rework, it needs minor buffs.
  • DavielebbDavielebb Posts: 792Registered Users
    Not really, there are plenty of units that just dont work in MP, in most matchups, but are super powerful units in campaign, or in any situation where money is a non issue.

    Like the steam tank for example, hardly an underpowered unit but except for maybe GS and VC it doesnt get used.
    Before they got buffed beyond comprehension organ guns and hellbasters werent used much at all, not because they were bad units but because they were to hard to utilise in a MP match where the short range meant good players can easily avoid most of the damage it can do, but left to their own devices, in an ideal situation even before the buffs those artillery could do amazing damage.
    Hexwraiths and cairnwraiths arevery bad either, but the damage they can do is limited because their main role is terror and tying up units with their phys resist. But most good players going up against VC will bring something to counter them in case they are brought, a simple aoe spell destroys them almost completely, doesnt mean they are bad unit.
    There are always going to be units in each faction that arent bad on their own merits, but just arent effective in MP or can be countered easily, that doesnt mean they need to be buffed through the roof.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,241Registered Users
    Pocman said:

    I think that was nerfed:

    From the patch noted:

    War Hydra: +100 HP & Another Takes Its Place +1 max use.

    What was nerfed? they only have 3 charges before, now 4 charges, on long prolong fights it almost guarantees their regen to be capped, as it should being the king of regen, hydras.

    They buffed it slightly but still hardly enough to be the go to - land kings of dark elf. 26 def is really low with just 50 armor. 32 def with 80 armor would truly make this unit shines. Right now its just a fat pool of hp, thats about it which should be reserved for abomination
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  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    yst said:

    Pocman said:

    I think that was nerfed:

    From the patch noted:

    War Hydra: +100 HP & Another Takes Its Place +1 max use.

    What was nerfed? they only have 3 charges before, now 4 charges, on long prolong fights it almost guarantees their regen to be capped, as it should being the king of regen, hydras.

    They buffed it slightly but still hardly enough to be the go to - land kings of dark elf. 26 def is really low with just 50 armor. 32 def with 80 armor would truly make this unit shines. Right now its just a fat pool of hp, thats about it which should be reserved for abomination
    Ok you are right, i misunderstood.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Posts: 947Registered Users
    OP, maybe you missed that but cygor is the beastmen's sole arty. DE already have arty and it could become really op if combined with a flamethrower hydra. If anything DE is the last faction that needs such a buff right now. I get this is about the unit, not the faction, if hydra was on someone else's roster maybe, but with DE I think it wouldnt be a good idea.
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  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Posts: 947Registered Users

    h455566hh said:

    Hydra is an interesting unit to play with in single player. It's tanky and has an AOE attack - good features to take care of unsupported blobs in AI armies. Hydra was supposed to fill the same role in multiplayer, but for that it's too slow and too vulnerable to anti-large ranged units. The same problems that plague other anti-infantry monsters. Probably a straight forward fix would be to give the Hydra physical resistance and maybe a silver shield to block ranged fire. This way archers won't be able to kill it in seconds, another solution can be a speed buff to 50 or so, like the tomb scorpion's speed. This way the dark elf monster can get to the fighting faster and do it's job.

    But i was thinking of a different way to make this unit a desired choice for dark elf players in online. Since it already has a form of a ranged attack as it's ability. Could a complete role switch be made by making hydra a specialist artillery unit, similar to Cygor.

    Considering how powerful it's fire breath is the firing rate and accuracy can be taken from the Cygor. Witch I think is in a very good place after the last patch - not too accurate and not too inaccurate. And the ranged can be lowered to 255, like that of the ushabti. So the Hydra won't feel like complete copy of the Cygor as far as functionality goes.

    My proposed idea is to create a unit that would give the High Elf roster new tools - tanky monster artillery that can damage at range, but can also be used in melee if necessary. In the artillery role it's slow speed is no longer a huge problem like before because it has a ranged attack, even if it's only 255 units. And at that range it's fire breath can have the same spread as the casket of souls and the same damage per single "fire ball". I don't have access to all the numbers so actual stats of the "close range artillery Hydra" are up to different people to decide.

    The idea is to make Hydra useful by repurposing it from a failed melee anti-infantry monster unit to something that ushabti are right now. An intermediate range monster that's good at ranged attacks and has melee stats good enough to protect itself from flanking cavalry and be used as support melee unit. I think CA created an interesting unit niche with ushabti that can be applied to other units and broadening the available Dark Elf arsenal, for example.

    I don,t like this way of game design, started with dwarfs. They were too weak against chariots, and CA buffed them in several patches. Today they are so overbuffed, that cav, chariots and monst. inf. fail to break their lines. It is realy disgusting - unit that is immune to it's counter. You are suggesting to make monster, that is tanky to missles. It is BAD idea.
    As for that, nobody asked for the latest mass increase but if you think that dwarf are OP, please show us smthing. Plus as long as charging units get their full charge bonus when charge through friendlies without penalties of any kind, there must give the player some counter. Maybe it was half assed solution but smthing had to be done.

    Mostly speaking about the several last patches actually. Which brings me to the point. If so many buffs, way more than any other faction has ever received, were required to make dwarfs the pretty good but certainly not WH2 faction level faction that they are today, speaks volumes of how badly they were made, no man's sky level bad design if you ask me, partly at least.
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  • h455566hhh455566hh Posts: 38Registered Users

    OP, maybe you missed that but cygor is the beastmen's sole arty. DE already have arty and it could become really op if combined with a flamethrower hydra. If anything DE is the last faction that needs such a buff right now. I get this is about the unit, not the faction, if hydra was on someone else's roster maybe, but with DE I think it wouldnt be a good idea.

    Hydra is 1800 gold. If it becomes an artillery at that price it will be very cost prohibitive to bring both it and the bolt thrower. But it would open new possibilities on the battle field.

    CA please don't nerf ushabties!
  • OndjageOndjage Junior Member Posts: 544Registered Users
    The hydra just needs more armour, Buff its armour to 80 and its movespeed to 50 and maybe increase its melee defence a little and it would be fine for multiplayer imo
  • InsultedHeroInsultedHero Posts: 39Registered Users
    I just finished testing hydra and i found [ what i presume ] a bug . Lets say that hydra hp is 7000 - ,, another takes its place '' kicks in at 3499 hp and heals for abou 1000 - 1100 hp than this skill gets 60 s cd [ it's not showing on unit card ] . Now lets say that hydra doesnt take dmg during 60 s and its current hp is 4827 . Now when hydra takes dmg and drops to 3499 hp ,, another takes its place '' doesnt proc . It will take 60 s from this moment for skill to reboot . In different scenario hydra hp drops from 7000 hp to 1 hp instantly ,, another takes its place '' kicks in and hydra is at 1001 hp but cd on ,, another takes its place '' is rebooting and will proc in next 60 s - and so on till it reaches 50 % hp . In other words its best to keep hydra under 50 % all time .
    Sorry for my bad english .
  • h455566hhh455566hh Posts: 38Registered Users
    Well, more of CA's QA and patch note quality.
  • kenjigreatkenjigreat Posts: 491Registered Users
    The only 'Use' I've found with the hydra is a 1.8K distraction for canons.
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