Orc boys and orc big uns are pathetic and no one uses them in SP or MP.
BO are extremely cost effective and are some of the best infantry around. Savage orcs are decent too.
As a result, no one uses orc big uns or orc boyz. They get shredded by missile fire, have terrible stats which don’t hold up well with anything (even empire infantry trade cost effectively with them)
Big uns have terrible leadership and poor ap so struggle to deal with large units (supposedly their niche). In campaign, the buffs for them are pretty bad (skill trees and tech trees) so they don’t even become viable in campaign.
Thoughts??
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I don't think their infantry needs any buffs to be honest.
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0 · LikeThey have pretty awful defensive stats but they arent meant to be used as line holders, greenskins are agressive as a faction and Big uns reflect that, high weapon strength, decent attack and a pretty big charge bonus.
Orc boyz and Big uns themselves dont need buffs, orc infantry for the most part is pretty damn good, the problem is their lack of other tools to deal with stuff that makes their faction weak as a whole
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0 · LikeOrc Boyz are just fodder. They're pretty decent at being fodder, but Goblins are *great* at being fodder so there's once again no real niche for Orc Boyz to fill.
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0 · LikeThe problem is that in a roster with so many infantry options competing for the same roles there is little point to bring the less cost effective option once you discover another unit performs better for a very similar price.
having said that, empire is probably a bad example to test units against as swordman are actually pretty good for their cost.
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0 · LikeOrcs chase down fleeing enemies that shoot back, who also have decent melee stats.. How do you fight that? 2:1, 3:1? Come on....
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0 · LikeAlso greenskins have arguably the best light cav in the game
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0 · LikeThe argument being that Skarsnik and Goblin Big Bosses, give their light cavalry a large boost, outside of that, GS light cav is... situational. Also great for hitting fleeing targets. But sticking one or 2 wolf riders, or Spiders, in your Orc armies doesn't do too much, late game.
Usually the CPU will over match your numbers, so if im fighting the DE, they met me with 3 full armies, a bunch being skirmishers and AP ranged; not much I can do about it, unless I so happened to have a Goblin Big Boss, in that particular fight. You also get to deal with dragons that tie up units too easily; for some reason they have a hard time runnign past, once they land, further hampering my pursuit. Goblin spears will get melted, by DE; there's really no way outside of having at least 4 GS chartiots and Wolf Chariots.
I know because running up one the enemy: im flanked by so many arrows that it doesn;t matter which direction alls i know, at that point, micro manging becomes a HUGE chore.
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0 · LikeDE is a bad example because they have so much ap ranged everywhere all the time. No matter how good your army is you cant win without heavy losses most of the time especially in siege battles. That being said "i cant beat them without losing half my army" is a very different argument from "i cant beat them" Factions like greenskins if you wanna troll auto resolves without losing a lot of stuff you need to 2v1 factions like DE.
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1 · 1LikeLate campaign-wise, it's about 200+ turns, I just can't churn out units like that, gobbos sure, but with current Waagh army losses, over trading out, for other units is very risky. Anyways, bringing units like goblin spears to a ranged match, seems kinda bad, in the grand scheme, it maybe just me, but I don't think it's a good idea, in the later part of the game.
It may not seem "overpowered", to some, but that doesn't mean that it makes me wanna throw my hands up, at the current game state, that the CPU dishes out. There are very many enjoyable battles to be lost and won. But one thing CA never semms to get right: is their "skirmish" type of units. I feel, for one, that 'foot ranged skirmishers", outside of Lizardmen, are too fast, when running+shooting. I feel that fighting foot skirmisher units are more of a chore, than a challenge, when the player has to drudge up some faster units quickly. Or maybe Orcs could have a different ranged unit.
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0 · LikeThat sounds like more of a campaign knowledge and micro issue for you, in which case you should watch the youtube videos and see what you can learn. This thread is essentially "200 turns in and orc boys and big uns arent cutting it" ofc not lol the elves have armies full of swordmasters and dragons by turn 80 :P
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0 · LikeEconomy doesn't mean much with generals eating money, and upkeep is buckling. I am very privy on the campaign sector, maybe not so much "battle knowledge", with magic, as the primary buff. I sack enough cities that it's ok to be deficit for about 30 turns, lol.
The problem is Bigg'Uns get wasted by arrows, before they even swing their choppuhz, if they do get there, they wont last long. Bigg'Uns stand alone, as the ONLY GS anti-large infantry, which they don't perform very well. They're "damage dealers", yet they have a difficult time doing so, with their MA being kinda low. Non-Savage Bigg'Uns feel shoehorned, when you can use "Savage ones". I really associate Bigg'Uns as another regular infantry, though I will use them against cav primarily, because..well it's the only option, other than BO, and it's late game.
Bigguns struggle to have an identity, as to what they're capable of, they feel like just a slightly beefier version of an Orc Boy; try about a 'side' grade. The only way they're "viable" is by use of ONE general, and that is Grimgor, which makes their BvL shoot even higher. So this tells me that they ARE useless, unless you got this ONE general beefing them up. They could use a MA buff upgrade, by about at least 3 points, after all, they are "Damage Dealers".
Either this, or the difficulty modifier buffs need adjustments. Because they don't hold weight, in the late game.
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0 · LikePlus Big uns are not "anti large" infantry. They dont have charge defence, they are completely different from typical anti large infantry units. Instead think of them as a great mid tier infantry thats primarily used as anti non armored infantry that also happens to have a small bonus vs large.
Any infantry can kill large units, you dont NEED an anti large bonus, even so the bonus Big Uns get is very small, but combined with their high attack speed and weapon strength they do a lot of damage to large targets especially non heavily armored ones. That being said, Black orcs are still better than Big uns at killing both infantry and large. They have better stats, more hp and armor, higher weapon strength and have armor piercing. The only time Big uns might perform better is vs unarmored cav since they have a slightly higher attack speed and the armor piercing from the black orcs isnt an advantage.
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1 · 1LikeIn some respects to fighting monsters, i don't think it's quite ideal to match monsters, against Orc Boyz and GoblinSpears, given by 3 key factors: Leadership, The Monsters "Terror/Fear, and their inherent ability, to fight. If your other units that aren't goblins, start to route, it's easy to say that gobbos will surely follow. I find the Orc faction highly ridged, when it comes to, building, and engaging most armies, with the exception of Dwarves, since they practically just stand there; too easy to flank.
Bigg'Uns strength, heavily relies on them backing a unit up, like a goblin taking the charge instead of Bigg'Uns. Which in this case severely gimps your Army, just use units that 'soak' up damage; there's no middle ground, and Bigg'Uns suck when shot at, and or getting flanked. You know that 90% of CPU armies field at least enough skirmishers and cavalry, to annoy without impunity, there's too many variables, the easiest way to identify Bigg'Uns weaknesses is maybe the apparent lack of another "support" type unit. BiggU'ns don't HAVE to be "directly buffed, but I feel that maybe the GS is lacking a versatile type of infantry.
They don't hold up to being flanked, or charged at, very well. they can take a beating, but their 'melee attack' isn't notable. I find them 'mediocre' T2 infantry, at best, an 'ok' one, if goblins have to waste space and take the damage, but then you're out of better uses.
However, despite my rant, you are right: You don't "Need" anti-large, to kill large, but when the time comes for Black Orcs, upkeep quickly becomes an issue, and you must opt for lower tier nonsense, while the CPU still recruits their most annoying, very high, advanced infantry. They just don't take being hit, all that well and when come face to face with other enemies they only feel like tar pit, rather than "damage dealers".
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0 · LikeWhen you need more armies sometimes you need back up, in the mix, so at the apex of your game, one might need to make some units, fast on the fly. Keeping upkeep in mind, one may opt for BiggUns, just to say(hypothetically). You use them as a make shift defense or offense, and to cut down on turn times, to boot, they just wont cut the mustard, even using an army of Bigguns 150 turns later.
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0 · LikeGenerally speaking you only need 1 army per new front your expanding into, and 1 or 2 for defence depending how much territory you have. However you ususally dont need much defence unless youve only half killed a faction and then moved on, you should wipe out a faction entirely before you move on to another if you can which means starting off with smaller factions.
Did you go through all the buildings you got from confederating etc? you only need 1 maybe 2 recruitment bases in total, the rest of the provinces should just be income and public order buildings for the most part as well as garrison buildings so that you only need a small force and a general to bolster the garrison if an enemy army manages to sneak past your frontline armies.
If you have 9 armies and they are low tier garbage, your far better off cutting half that and having 4-5 fully high tier armies as much as possible.
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0 · LikeIn my HE campaign i had generals with like 2 star dragons and 2 dragon princes sailing across the sea to trade units with my main armies lol. Oh theres also always global recruitment :P
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0 · LikeGenerally yes, I agree. But again, have you even tried GS? Their rebellion tendencies, are higher than most factions. Meaning you wont ALWAYS have an army on every convenient front. Not everything is scripted to fall into place with befriending, or warring factions.
Yeah im pretty familiar with the building system, myself, and again sometimes you may need convenient building space, not to mention "Altdorf" Garrison, is bugged for any other faction, that isn't Empire(Walls don't help, it acts like the Altdorf building, itself), so sometimes the player may need more buildings depending on situation. Again, recruiting Generals, is "multiplicative" for upkeep, the GS suffer greatly, when recruiting more generals, including public order issues. Defense isn't really so much in the nature of the "fightiness" system; it's a fast paced faction.
My armies include most everything, beyond Bigg'Uns. As I've said Bigg'Uns are lost because of either: Their current status, or it's either lacking another GS unit. Once i have the appropriate amount of full armies, I can't really produce anymore, and Black Orcs still get hit pretty hard, especially against DE, which i think needs nerfing, to hell.
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0 · LikeBlack orc and spider armies are great against everything else but against DE youl want to have a specialised army with night goblins in it the stalk lets them get really close before getting fired on and they have silver shields too, i would have 3-4 of them in an army fighting DE to absorb the fire or get close enough to make the archers run before sending the orcs in.
On sieges though your best bet if you dont want to take a lot of damage is to just **** the auto resolve with 2 armies etc.
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0 · LikeBut the end goal is ultimately black orcs.
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0 · LikeThey are an upgrade on orc boyz but only cos they’re trash
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