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Orc boys & big un upgrade???

Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,707
Orc boys and orc big uns are pathetic and no one uses them in SP or MP.

BO are extremely cost effective and are some of the best infantry around. Savage orcs are decent too.

As a result, no one uses orc big uns or orc boyz. They get shredded by missile fire, have terrible stats which don’t hold up well with anything (even empire infantry trade cost effectively with them)

Big uns have terrible leadership and poor ap so struggle to deal with large units (supposedly their niche). In campaign, the buffs for them are pretty bad (skill trees and tech trees) so they don’t even become viable in campaign.

Thoughts??

Comments

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,087
    Theo91 said:

    Orc boys and orc big uns are pathetic and no one uses them in SP or MP.

    BO are extremely cost effective and are some of the best infantry around. Savage orcs are decent too.

    As a result, no one uses orc big uns or orc boyz. They get shredded by missile fire, have terrible stats which don’t hold up well with anything (even empire infantry trade cost effectively with them)

    Big uns have terrible leadership and poor ap so struggle to deal with large units (supposedly their niche). In campaign, the buffs for them are pretty bad (skill trees and tech trees) so they don’t even become viable in campaign.

    Thoughts??

    Actually big uns are seen very often, orc boyz from time to time, i think they quite decent for their points, i think all Greenskin untis seem fine only issue is dealing with monsters for GS the AP ratios on archers should help a bit but having cheap spear chukkas added might be great for greenskins.

    I don't think their infantry needs any buffs to be honest.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,873
    Orc boyz could get an slight MA buff tho
  • Blissey1Blissey1 Registered Users Posts: 59
    they need to completely redo the tech tree and add some actual orc infantry buffs to it, preferably ones that aren't at the very end of the tree. As it there's more tech buffs for chariots...
  • MukipMukip Registered Users Posts: 595
    edited February 2018
    Orc boys with chevrons can be okay sometimes, either up to 65 or 70 morale. I use them against Wood Elves since they are cheaper than big uns and have shields.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,249
    Orc boys were recently buffed and definitely have their uses. You're not always going up against elite enemies.
  • DavielebbDavielebb Registered Users Posts: 792
    orc boys and big uns are very cost effective. Orc boys a great cheap shield unit you can use to soak up fire or flank or go around to engage archers etc. Big uns are some of the most cost effective infantry in the game, hold up very well against large. Have enough armor that non ap units dont do great against them yet not heavily armored enough for the enemy to commit elite AP units to deal with.
    They have pretty awful defensive stats but they arent meant to be used as line holders, greenskins are agressive as a faction and Big uns reflect that, high weapon strength, decent attack and a pretty big charge bonus.
    Orc boyz and Big uns themselves dont need buffs, orc infantry for the most part is pretty damn good, the problem is their lack of other tools to deal with stuff that makes their faction weak as a whole
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,194
    Never saw the point of orc boyz when you can just bring gobbos. Big uns are fine, i dont know why they needed a cost increase for mortal empires though.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,009
    Big 'Uns are. . . Ok. But there's just no point to them. Savage Orc Big 'Uns are objectively superior in every way that matters when it comes to fighting off cavalry and crushing low-tier infantry, and if you want them to do any other job then the Greenskins have another unit that does it better and more efficiently.

    Orc Boyz are just fodder. They're pretty decent at being fodder, but Goblins are *great* at being fodder so there's once again no real niche for Orc Boyz to fill.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 2,843
    Both are ok, not terrible at all.

    The problem is that in a roster with so many infantry options competing for the same roles there is little point to bring the less cost effective option once you discover another unit performs better for a very similar price.


    having said that, empire is probably a bad example to test units against as swordman are actually pretty good for their cost.

  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,194
    Shrroomz said:

    eumaies said:

    Orc boys were recently buffed and definitely have their uses. You're not always going up against elite enemies.

    True, but the problem lies in dealing with newer, more recent units, on foot that can turn AND fire at pursuing infantry, can't really do much against DE,WE, and HE. Orcs need a better outlet against fleeing/kiting enemies! As Orcs, I end up chasing and losing more because of that. Spider riders are more viable on a Gobb Big Boss, rather than "buffs" that you get with Orc Boars, and the like.

    Orcs chase down fleeing enemies that shoot back, who also have decent melee stats.. How do you fight that? 2:1, 3:1? Come on....
    Gobbos with silver shields.

    Also greenskins have arguably the best light cav in the game
  • DavielebbDavielebb Registered Users Posts: 792
    Your talking about campaign lol? thats a totally different story, if your going against high tier DE armies with orc boyz and wolf riders wtf do you expect will happen lol. Elves have the highest costing armies in the game by a large margin, A fully high tier DE or HE army will crush a full tier GS army 1v1 any time. But they cost a helluva lot more, dont have free waagh armies and ofc are played by the AI which means you can easily beat them even if their army is better if you know how to play properly.
    DE is a bad example because they have so much ap ranged everywhere all the time. No matter how good your army is you cant win without heavy losses most of the time especially in siege battles. That being said "i cant beat them without losing half my army" is a very different argument from "i cant beat them" Factions like greenskins if you wanna troll auto resolves without losing a lot of stuff you need to 2v1 factions like DE.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,194
    Shrroomz said:

    Shrroomz said:

    eumaies said:

    Orc boys were recently buffed and definitely have their uses. You're not always going up against elite enemies.

    True, but the problem lies in dealing with newer, more recent units, on foot that can turn AND fire at pursuing infantry, can't really do much against DE,WE, and HE. Orcs need a better outlet against fleeing/kiting enemies! As Orcs, I end up chasing and losing more because of that. Spider riders are more viable on a Gobb Big Boss, rather than "buffs" that you get with Orc Boars, and the like.

    Orcs chase down fleeing enemies that shoot back, who also have decent melee stats.. How do you fight that? 2:1, 3:1? Come on....
    Gobbos with silver shields.

    Also greenskins have arguably the best light cav in the game
    I thought the 'silver shields' symbol, were mainly for extra 'melee' defense'? It doesn;t really do much else, plus enemy AP range support, I'd rather bring Orc boyz.

    The argument being that Skarsnik and Goblin Big Bosses, give their light cavalry a large boost, outside of that, GS light cav is... situational. Also great for hitting fleeing targets. But sticking one or 2 wolf riders, or Spiders, in your Orc armies doesn't do too much, late game.

    Usually the CPU will over match your numbers, so if im fighting the DE, they met me with 3 full armies, a bunch being skirmishers and AP ranged; not much I can do about it, unless I so happened to have a Goblin Big Boss, in that particular fight. You also get to deal with dragons that tie up units too easily; for some reason they have a hard time runnign past, once they land, further hampering my pursuit. Goblin spears will get melted, by DE; there's really no way outside of having at least 4 GS chartiots and Wolf Chariots.

    I know because running up one the enemy: im flanked by so many arrows that it doesn;t matter which direction alls i know, at that point, micro manging becomes a HUGE chore.
    Silver shields give 55% missile resist when the unit is being shot at from the front. In MP greenskin light cav is excellent, very cost effective and lots of options. Late game campaign is another thing entirely. Youll need multiple stacks to deal with just 1 high tier elven stack.
  • DavielebbDavielebb Registered Users Posts: 792
    your 200 turns in and not only have you not won yet but your having a hard time lol? For anyone else even on VH around turn 60-80 tops is when your economy is booming and you have multiple high tier armies going around trashing stuff, thats why if you ask hardly anyone actually plays campaigns after turn 100 or so because its just too easy at that point and becomes boring.
    That sounds like more of a campaign knowledge and micro issue for you, in which case you should watch the youtube videos and see what you can learn. This thread is essentially "200 turns in and orc boys and big uns arent cutting it" ofc not lol the elves have armies full of swordmasters and dragons by turn 80 :P
  • DavielebbDavielebb Registered Users Posts: 792
    edited February 2018
    Big uns are a mid tier infantry. never mind 200 turns, by 50 turns in you shouldnt have any big uns in your armies, the only infantry you should have is Black Orcs, a few night goblin archers, doom divers, spiders, and Boar boy big uns. Thats about the best late game army you can make with GS, it is still far weaker than the late game armies of other factions but doesnt cost nearly as much per army and gets free waaghs.

    Plus Big uns are not "anti large" infantry. They dont have charge defence, they are completely different from typical anti large infantry units. Instead think of them as a great mid tier infantry thats primarily used as anti non armored infantry that also happens to have a small bonus vs large.
    Any infantry can kill large units, you dont NEED an anti large bonus, even so the bonus Big Uns get is very small, but combined with their high attack speed and weapon strength they do a lot of damage to large targets especially non heavily armored ones. That being said, Black orcs are still better than Big uns at killing both infantry and large. They have better stats, more hp and armor, higher weapon strength and have armor piercing. The only time Big uns might perform better is vs unarmored cav since they have a slightly higher attack speed and the armor piercing from the black orcs isnt an advantage.

  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,830
    edited February 2018
    Big'Uns could use a bonus vs infantry while the savage variant retains its bonus vs large. Goblin spearmen could also use a bonus vs large as well.
  • DavielebbDavielebb Registered Users Posts: 792
    upkeep should not be an issue 200 turns in. Usally by 60-70 turns in you have so much money you can afford whatever you want. How many armies do you have? How many provinces? Upkeep shouldnt be an issue, because the less territory you have, the less armies you need. The more territories you have the more you need but you will also have more money. If your total income before expenditure 200 turns in isnt at least 30k your doing something very wrong.
  • DavielebbDavielebb Registered Users Posts: 792
    well its quite simple, the less territory you have the less armies you need and vice versa, if you need 9 armies than by the point you should have like half the entire world lol in which case you would have an insane amount of income. Unless ofc your trying to fight on 5-6 fronts at the same time and need multiple armies for each which is just silly.
    Generally speaking you only need 1 army per new front your expanding into, and 1 or 2 for defence depending how much territory you have. However you ususally dont need much defence unless youve only half killed a faction and then moved on, you should wipe out a faction entirely before you move on to another if you can which means starting off with smaller factions.
    Did you go through all the buildings you got from confederating etc? you only need 1 maybe 2 recruitment bases in total, the rest of the provinces should just be income and public order buildings for the most part as well as garrison buildings so that you only need a small force and a general to bolster the garrison if an enemy army manages to sneak past your frontline armies.
    If you have 9 armies and they are low tier garbage, your far better off cutting half that and having 4-5 fully high tier armies as much as possible.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,707
    The issue I have with the green skins is that only black orcs are higher tier than big uns and by the time a region has access to them, I’ve already moved on and my frontline is way further forward. I feel like I never end up with black orcs in my stack
  • DavielebbDavielebb Registered Users Posts: 792
    thats what reinforcement armies are for. At Black Crag you can get Black orcs at tier 4, but if your main army is pushing forward and you dont want to bring it back, just recruit a new general with all the new tier units youve just unlocked and then move him up to transfer to your main general, easy lol.
    In my HE campaign i had generals with like 2 star dragons and 2 dragon princes sailing across the sea to trade units with my main armies lol. Oh theres also always global recruitment :P
  • DavielebbDavielebb Registered Users Posts: 792
    Unfortunately DE is extremely annoying to fight with all factions pretty much, as is fighting wood elves, though you dont have to fight them much if at all and they dont expand. Simple because DE will always field a lot of ap archers and black guard, black orcs with your campaign buffs and lord skills etc will do perfectly well against everything but being non shielded and fairly slow and without good ranged yourself (with short range as well) you always take a lot of damage especially in sieges where just approaching the gate can get you killed.
    Black orc and spider armies are great against everything else but against DE youl want to have a specialised army with night goblins in it the stalk lets them get really close before getting fired on and they have silver shields too, i would have 3-4 of them in an army fighting DE to absorb the fire or get close enough to make the archers run before sending the orcs in.
    On sieges though your best bet if you dont want to take a lot of damage is to just **** the auto resolve with 2 armies etc.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,830
    edited March 2018
    Big un's actually are an upgrade over orc boyz. Especially when dwarfs get longbeards. You can still use goblins or orc boyz to soak up arrow fire and then send in the big un's and trolls.

    But the end goal is ultimately black orcs.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,707
    The issue with big uns is that they take 2 turns to recruit, they have no shields so get melted by archer fire, they have poor leadership so they get terror routed by large and they have poor ap so can’t compete with heavy armoured troops

    They are an upgrade on orc boyz but only cos they’re trash

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