Bretonnia in Game 2 ME campaign feels bad because of this.

Prkl8r · March 13

I'll preface this by saying that all experiences described by me will be from the perspective of the game being on Very Hard difficulty, as I play exclusively on that in both Game 1 and 2, so remember that when you want to bring up counterpoints of your own experiences if you don't play on Very Hard at least.

I decided I wanted to play Bretonnia again as it was my favorite game 1 race.

After playing 4 games to about 50 turns in ME as Bretonnia, I have noticed some consistent issues that the faction has in game 2 that it did not have in game 1.

It's really one problem with a number of possible contributing issues.

That main issue is that the Bretonnian factions get destroyed very easily and quickly. If you haven't noticed yet, Game 2 makes the AI far more aggressive than it was in game 1.

In all of my games, 1 or more Bretonnian subfaction was destroyed before I ever even was able to research the confederation tech for it. In 3 of those games Carcassonne was destroyed, not only depriving the player of the confederation, but also a powerful LL.

Now many people may not consider this a problem, as the Empire almost always loses a few of it's counties before it can confederate.

The difference here is 2 fold. One, the Empire, and well...All other factions can just confederate whenever, and does not need to research specific 6 turn researches to be able to confederate. Secondly, the Empire loses access to no LLs if they lose any sub-factions. and almost no other faction has a subfaction with an LL that starts in a precarious enough spot that it will get wiped out in under 30 turns.

To add insult to injury, if one of the factions is destroyed before you can confederate with them, you still have to spend 6 turns to research the ability to confederate with them to get down the tree, and the only thing you get out of it is 30 chivalry. This feels really bad considering how often it happens.

In my last game i watched a full stack beastmen army come from Estallia (it was new as it was Kazarak and I had just killed him ~10 truns earlier) and attack Carcassonne castle with the enchantress in it with a full stack army. Kazarak razed the castle in one turn with no siege.

This points a light at a few possible reasons for this. One is that the Bretonnian AI is unable to manage and properly crate effective armies. Two is that they are incapable of being able to properly create an economy to allow for better units, and/or buildings. Three could be that low tier Bretonnian armies are super undervalued by Auto resolve. Four could be that game one was never balanced around the AI being this aggressive.

I never had any of these issues over many Bret playthroughs in game one because the AI was very passive in game one. Even when factions were at war they would usually just sit in their towns and wait for the other faction to move first.

There are a few easy ways to fix this issue imo. One is to give Carcassonne and Bordeleaux at least a tier 1 garrison when they are AI controlled. Alternately adjust their starting units or even make the Bretonnian AI better at upgrading it's armies.

TLDR: If you are going to make us do research chains in order to confederate with the subfactions, that give no other benefit, they need to be able to stay alive until we can actually finish.

Playing Bretonnia feels really bad because of this right now though.

Prkl8r · March 13

I do have to amend that the crooked moon clan can be destroyed early if you aren't playing as them.

endur · March 13

If you research the Carcasonne chain first and NOT the Bordeleaux chain, you should have no problems with either Carcasonne being wiped out or Bordeleaux being wiped out.

I've played many ME Bretonnia campaigns, including Very Hard and Legendary.

While Carcasonne is more vulnerable due to Beastmen and Skaven, neither of them are likely to wipe out Carcasonne before turn 25.

Itharus · March 13

That's more of a workaround than a solution, Endur.

yukishiro1 · March 13

Cascaronne does get wiped out early a fair % of the time. Sometimes it beats Morghur and survives, but sometimes it loses that battle with Morghur at the start and ends up crippled and wiped out.

You basically have to research the Casc confederation tree from the very start and also keep careful tabs on it and send your army down south to prevent it from being eliminated if you want to be sure of getting the enchantress.

Crossil · March 13

Or you embrace Chaos and let the dice role.

Either commit to getting LLs or research other tech.

Replayability 'n' all that.

Uagrim · March 13

Crossil said:
Or you embrace Chaos and let the dice role.

Either commit to getting LLs or research other tech.

Replayability 'n' all that.

the problem is with the high chance of cascaronne getting wiped if you comit to the research you'll only waste your time.

but last thing I heared is that beastmen Auto resolve for the AI is broken and that they are a bit toovertuned with like razing estalis capital on turn 2 or 3.

Prkl8r · March 13

Crossil said:
Or you embrace Chaos and let the dice role.

Either commit to getting LLs or research other tech.

Replayability 'n' all that.

That's well and good if it was just a small chance to happen but it's a pretty high chance that Caarcassonne will be destroyed before I even get the research done, even if I do rush down that tree. 3 of 4 of my games had them destroyed between turn 30 and 50.

Uagrim said:

Crossil said:
Or you embrace Chaos and let the dice role.

Either commit to getting LLs or research other tech.

Replayability 'n' all that.
the problem is with the high chance of cascaronne getting wiped if you comit to the research you'll only waste your time.

but last thing I heared is that beastmen Auto resolve for the AI is broken and that they are a bit toovertuned with like razing estalis capital on turn 2 or 3.

That would make sense as I said in the OP, that in my last game, Carcassonne had a full stack army inside the castle. They only had the garrison from the town but a single full stack of Beastmen shouldn't be strong enough that early in the game to wipe out a full stack army + 5-6 additional units and walls without even besieging.

krunsh · March 13

If you care very much about Confederating them, then I guess you could just send some troops and help them out against the Beastmen?

Prkl8r · March 13

krunsh said:
If you care very much about Confederating them, then I guess you could just send some troops and help them out against the Beastmen?

I mean, If the beastmen can do that I'll pretty much have to.

Doesn't change the fact that the beastmen should probably not be able to do that.

I don't think adding a tier 1 garrison to the city when it's not being played would be too much to ask though, Like how they made the empire start with all of Reikland when the player is not playing it. Seems simple enough.

Jastall · March 13

I think that's a problem because of three main reasons;

One, the Beastmen (especially Khazrak) start smack dab in Carcassonne and usually turn it into rubble quickly, and the Beastmen then snowball quite quickly from there.

Two, Mousillon ties down several factions by itself with its large army and powerful garrison.

Three, Louen starts at war with the Skaelings and will, in defiance of both lore and logic, drop everything to conquer them. So that means that no matter what Bretonnian faction you play, one, maybe two of your potentially most powerful allies either get rekt by the AI or are tied down fighting pointless wars.

The safest startpos for Brets if you want to confederate them all is probably Carcassonne, which allows you to neutralize Khazrak before he becomes a threat, which also makes the Wood Elves like you and thus secures your border eastern. From there just destroy Mousillon and ensure Louen doesn't get beaten by the Skaeling and you'll have an easy confederation.

Prkl8r · March 13

Jastall said:
I think that's a problem because of three main reasons;

One, the Beastmen (especially Khazrak) start smack dab in Carcassonne and usually turn it into rubble quickly, and the Beastmen then snowball quite quickly from there.

Two, Mousillon ties down several factions by itself with its large army and powerful garrison.

Three, Louen starts at war with the Skaelings and will, in defiance of both lore and logic, drop everything to conquer them. So that means that no matter what Bretonnian faction you play, one, maybe two of your potentially most powerful allies either get rekt by the AI or are tied down fighting pointless wars.

The safest startpos for Brets if you want to confederate them all is probably Carcassonne, which allows you to neutralize Khazrak before he becomes a threat, which also makes the Wood Elves like you and thus secures your border eastern. From there just destroy Mousillon and ensure Louen doesn't get beaten by the Skaeling and you'll have an easy confederation.

One problem that I have is that Bretonnia, and I mean Louen, Main Faction Bretonnia, more than any other faction in the game, feels like a linear checklist of things you have to do in a specific order. At least at the higher difficulties.

Turn 1 recruit 4 archers and recruit an additional lord
Turn 2 Take Marionburg and move additinal lord to the border so he can recruite.
Turn 3 Enemy army will go after lone lord retreate him. kill Grung Zint while the main army is away.
Turn 4 move lone lord to carcasone,
Turn 5 enemy orc army will siege your capital, move louen to reinforce and attack with your lone lord, kill the orc army.
Turn ~6-20 spend that killing Musillon. and trying to stabilize public order while doing diplomacy and confederating, praying you don't get some terrible event like Whining Peasants that cripples you for 15 turns (seriously wtf gettign this event at the start of the game)

After that Pray that all the sub factions left are still around to confederate with.

After that, if you manage to fully confederate, the game opens up but those first 20-30 turns are so formulaic.

endur · March 13

Prkl8r said:

One problem that I have is that Bretonnia, and I mean Louen, Main Faction Bretonnia, more than any other faction in the game, feels like a linear checklist of things you have to do in a specific order. At least at the higher difficulties.

Turn 1 recruit 4 archers and recruit an additional lord
Turn 2 Take Marionburg and move additinal lord to the border so he can recruite.
Turn 3 Enemy army will go after lone lord retreate him. kill Grung Zint while the main army is away.
Turn 4 move lone lord to carcasone,
Turn 5 enemy orc army will siege your capital, move louen to reinforce and attack with your lone lord, kill the orc army.
Turn ~6-20 spend that killing Musillon. and trying to stabilize public order while doing diplomacy and confederating,

There are a bunch of different ways to handle turns 1-5, so its not entirely formulaic, but it is pretty much, deal with Marienburg and deal with Skullsmashers, however you prefer to do that.

Ephraim_Dalton · March 13

Mousillon is the main problem, huge garrison and gigantic starting funds, all so that Vampire players could get a chance to confederate them and get the Red Duke in campaign. Plus they almost always take out Lyonesse within 10 turns or so.

I say screw that, nerf them back into being turn5 fodder.

endur · March 13

Prkl8r said:

That's well and good if it was just a small chance to happen but it's a pretty high chance that Caarcassonne will be destroyed before I even get the research done, even if I do rush down that tree. 3 of 4 of my games had them destroyed between turn 30 and 50.

You can confederate Carcasonne by turn 23 if you have just one province with the 10% tech research buff. If you have multiple tech research bonuses, you could potentially confederate Carcasonne even sooner. Carcasonne is highly unlikely to be destroyed before turn 23.

That said, Bretonnian factions definitely need a buff in the campaign. The weakest factions in the campaign seem to be Bretonnia, Empire, and Skaven.

karge068 · March 13

Ephraim_Dalton said:
Mousillon is the main problem, huge garrison and gigantic starting funds, all so that Vampire players could get a chance to confederate them and get the Red Duke in campaign. Plus they almost always take out Lyonesse within 10 turns or so.

I say screw that, nerf them back into being turn5 fodder.

This. Vampires in general seem to have garrisons that are just too strong for Empire or Bretonnian AI to defeat

Ephraim_Dalton · March 13

Bretonnia is weak because they are poor and have that Vampire blob in their midst they don't dare touch, so the tumor can grow uncontrollably.

Empire has the same problem with their Vampires plus enemies from all sides and half the Empire factions hating on Karl Franz (GREATEST STATESMEN OF THE WORLD, everyone).

Skaven are screwed because there are so few of them and they're scattered all around the map so they can't support each other.

Crossil · March 13

The problem is that Beastmen have a tendency to RIP very quickly due to having no settlements so losing a battle has more drastic consequences for them and they don't have automatic spawning of several armies at once like WoC. It ended up being balanced by auto-resolve?

What other staying power can Beastmen have?

On the other hand Bret AI sure loves its peasant spam. That might be a better place to look at. Perhaps when they have knights they'll consider ousting Moussilon.

Ephraim_Dalton · March 13

Beastmen being a minor nuisance that is defeated easily but always returns for more is perfectly replicating the lore. If you buff them they'll just torch the map and you get the Attila experience all over again.

Wargol5 · March 13

Hey, at least you can say something like : "Some bitches refugees on Ulthuan created a useful vortex but they keep hiding on their island since then, us bretonnians are actually the Wall against chaos, protecting the pansies wood elves and high elves and thus, the rest of the world".

xXAlduin99 · March 13

bretonnia still have a lot of problems.

1) recruitment AI. it recruits units that i never would recruit in mid/lategame, with a reason. instead of using polearms, spears and swords with shields, the AI is spamming the ones without shields, and no polearms. and no squires. Knights are also rare- but in the very late game i seen a bretonnian army with Grail guardians. (it was so ... wow, that i first thought it was a bug, but then i realized that this is kind of cool.) the AI also never recruit archers with fire & the blessed trebuchet. the AI also likes the peasent mob very much. i think it does not happen anymore, but i seen armies with 1 Lord and 19 peasent mob.
2) buildings. the AI just don't understand it. it negates the income from resources, because they are never building the industry chain, only the farms- which is negating the income from industry at its highest tier. i also think that the smithy as a requirement for the units with shields is a problem. i think the smithy should be a tier 4 building with no following tiers and just enabling the highest tier knights.
3) the worst garrisons in the game. empire is getting greatswords, dwarfs are getting longbeards, high elves are getting shielded sea guard of lothern- and bretonnia have not even polearms in their garrisons. yeah. great.

the recruitment AI, the building AI & the garrisons were much better in Bretonnia before it was unlocked via FLC lol.

the funny thing is- the garrisons are intentional. it was done because bretonnia is getting walls in minor settlements without have to build the garrison chain.

this "advantage" hardly worked in Game1. but in Game2 its just not working because its super outdated.

but nothing will happen. bretonnia is ticked on CAs list with the 3 LL skill trees and the tech tree. (which are good changes)
but i think the recruitment AI still needs a little buff (not too much, one race with high tier spam is enough.. looking at you, dark hydras.. eh i mean dark elves)
the building AI & the garrisons needs a change (or just change the bretonnia building system, because i honestly never liked it that much)

and everything will be fine. but it will not happen as I said.

karge068 · March 13

Ephraim_Dalton said:
Bretonnia is weak because they are poor and have that Vampire blob in their midst they don't dare touch, so the tumor can grow uncontrollably.

Empire has the same problem with their Vampires plus enemies from all sides and half the Empire factions hating on Karl Franz (GREATEST STATESMEN OF THE WORLD, everyone).

Skaven are screwed because there are so few of them and they're scattered all around the map so they can't support each other.

Yeah I love the greatest statesman shtick.

Eleven nobles, Louen (possibly others) can improve diplo relations with ALL factions on their skill tree

I think in latest update Frannie got the ability to do this with empire factions only.

karge068 · March 13

Crossil said:
The problem is that Beastmen have a tendency to RIP very quickly due to having no settlements so losing a battle has more drastic consequences for them and they don't have automatic spawning of several armies at once like WoC. It ended up being balanced by auto-resolve?

What other staying power can Beastmen have?

On the other hand Bret AI sure loves its peasant spam. That might be a better place to look at. Perhaps when they have knights they'll consider ousting Moussilon.

IMO they don't need staying power. They re spawn form time to time which works well.

Prkl8r · March 13

karge068 said:

Crossil said:
The problem is that Beastmen have a tendency to RIP very quickly due to having no settlements so losing a battle has more drastic consequences for them and they don't have automatic spawning of several armies at once like WoC. It ended up being balanced by auto-resolve?

What other staying power can Beastmen have?

On the other hand Bret AI sure loves its peasant spam. That might be a better place to look at. Perhaps when they have knights they'll consider ousting Moussilon.
IMO they don't need staying power. They re spawn form time to time which works well.

Exactly, they literally never die completely unless you are playing them and lose.

hurricane501 · March 13

Bret are super strong now... you dont need to confed at all i skip that tree altogether.

The only lord you want is the port income dude.

Fey enchantress is meh if you want to have her start with her louen wont get wiped out and youll get both but the ai will ruin louens skill tree.

Wargol5 · March 13

karge068 said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:
Bretonnia is weak because they are poor and have that Vampire blob in their midst they don't dare touch, so the tumor can grow uncontrollably.

Empire has the same problem with their Vampires plus enemies from all sides and half the Empire factions hating on Karl Franz (GREATEST STATESMEN OF THE WORLD, everyone).

Skaven are screwed because there are so few of them and they're scattered all around the map so they can't support each other.
Yeah I love the greatest statesman shtick.

Eleven nobles, Louen (possibly others) can improve diplo relations with ALL factions on their skill tree

With their tech tree, bretonnians factions can improve their relations with the factions of the Order only (Empire, Dwarves, High Elves, Lizardmens), excluding wood elves.

hurricane501 said:
Bret are super strong now... you dont need to confed at all i skip that tree altogether.

The only lord you want is the port income dude.

Fey enchantress is meh if you want to have her start with her louen wont get wiped out and youll get both but the ai will ruin louens skill tree.

Uh... yeah, in my last Bordeleaux campaign, i decided to confederate with Bretonnia very late in the game and i got a lvl 40 Louen without his hypogryph...

hurricane501 · March 13

Wargol5 said:

karge068 said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:
Bretonnia is weak because they are poor and have that Vampire blob in their midst they don't dare touch, so the tumor can grow uncontrollably.

Empire has the same problem with their Vampires plus enemies from all sides and half the Empire factions hating on Karl Franz (GREATEST STATESMEN OF THE WORLD, everyone).

Skaven are screwed because there are so few of them and they're scattered all around the map so they can't support each other.
Yeah I love the greatest statesman shtick.

Eleven nobles, Louen (possibly others) can improve diplo relations with ALL factions on their skill tree
With their tech tree, bretonnians factions can improve their relations with the factions of the Order only (Empire, Dwarves, High Elves, Lizardmens), excluding wood elves, not all.

hurricane501 said:
Bret are super strong now... you dont need to confed at all i skip that tree altogether.

The only lord you want is the port income dude.

Fey enchantress is meh if you want to have her start with her louen wont get wiped out and youll get both but the ai will ruin louens skill tree.
Uh... yeah, in my last Bordeleaux campaign, i decided to confederate with Bretonnia very late in the game and i got a lvl 40 Louen without his hypogryph...

Lol yeah the ai skilling their lords is just messed up.

I always go louen the other 2 are super boring in comparison.

Fay does have easy access to go south which is nice and then you can fight some tombkings too

psychoak · March 13

The enchantress is a godlike caster. She has excellent stats, a great mount, and can actually hang in melee against AI lords, without a melee build. This puts her special abilities to work the best, nerfing enemy units with that attack debuff, giving allied units the magic resistance boost. You can even kill melee lords with her, by using the favour ability on herself.

Prkl8r · March 13

hurricane501 said:
Bret are super strong now... you dont need to confed at all i skip that tree altogether.

The only lord you want is the port income dude.

Fey enchantress is meh if you want to have her start with her louen wont get wiped out and youll get both but the ai will ruin louens skill tree.

I'm not arguing that the unit roster is bad. I'm arguing that the bretonnia AI is terrible, even worse than other factions.

Also if you are arguing that confederating is pointless, than that brings up the fact that your saying that 1/3 of the Bret skill tree is pointless...which adds another level to the existing argument.

Also, by your own admission the only reason you want Alberic is so that you can turn him into a permanent statue in marienburg.

karge068 · March 14

Wargol5 said:

karge068 said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:
Bretonnia is weak because they are poor and have that Vampire blob in their midst they don't dare touch, so the tumor can grow uncontrollably.

Empire has the same problem with their Vampires plus enemies from all sides and half the Empire factions hating on Karl Franz (GREATEST STATESMEN OF THE WORLD, everyone).

Skaven are screwed because there are so few of them and they're scattered all around the map so they can't support each other.
Yeah I love the greatest statesman shtick.

Eleven nobles, Louen (possibly others) can improve diplo relations with ALL factions on their skill tree
With their tech tree, bretonnians factions can improve their relations with the factions of the Order only (Empire, Dwarves, High Elves, Lizardmens), excluding wood elves.

Check Louen's skill tree.

ghtot · March 14

Alberic's port skill should be changed. He is not a legendary lord right now, but a legendary town mayor. His starting faction bonuses are also terrible compared to the other two lords.

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Bretonnia in Game 2 ME campaign feels bad because of this.

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