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Warhammer + Three Kingdoms = ?

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  • talonntalonn Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 533
    MrJade said:

    Serkelet said:

    Same with Cathay. You can have a small map with 4 flavours of Chaos for the 3rd game, or expand the map to the east and flesh out Cathay to add strategic depth to the CAMPAIGN. As Total War players, what do you feel is better?

    No Cathay. I care more about the combined map than anything else, and making a fun game.

    1. CIN isn't fleshed out at all meaning a disproportionate amount of resources would have to go to making it.
    2. We still have DZ and OK for the game. Saying Chaos only is disingenuous at best, a falsehood at worst.
    3. The combined map was already shrunk, and is dragging around. I'd rather not double it again.

    As a Total War player first and foremostly, I absolutely do not want CIN. From a lore perspective, CIN is a waste. From all possible paths, CIN is a bad idea.

    There has never been a single shred of evidence that CIN was ever thought about by GW.

    All in all, as a Total War player, I would rather have:
    1. Middenland.
    2. Araby.
    3. Kislev.
    4. Other unique Imperial Provinces.
    5. The missing units from the GS roster.
    6. Nagash and a unified undead list.
    7. Amazons.
    8. Albion.
    9. TEB.
    10. A functional mercenary system.
    11. A overhaul of OWE factions to redo mechanics like Grudges and WAAAGHs and add unique mechanics to the Empire.
    12. Beastmen missing units.
    13. A smoother mega-map experience like what is possible from the Laboratory.
    14. More DLC for OWE factions.
    Ok. We want different things.
    Bring on Cathay!
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,162
    Draxynnic said:

    Out of curiosity... would you change your tune if it turned out that GW had done preparation work for a Cathayan army list that never got published (for whatever reason)?

    Probably, but I sincerely doubt that any serious work had ever been done for them. The closest we ever get is a Bretonnia reskin done for White Dwarf where it was implicitly stated there was no work or desire to make a Cathay army.

    From a TW perspective, Cathay would exacerbate the current mega-map issues, namely turn time, lag, and factions never encountering each other. (As Dwarves, VCs, or GS will you ever encounter the HE or DE? No. As Dorfs or VC will you ever encounter the LM or TKs? No. As Empire or VCs do you encounter HE, DE, LM, or TKs? No.)

    From a lore perspective, CIN is a non-starter.

    Again, there are many things that both a TW-centric gamer can want more, and from a lore-centric gamer, there are few things less important.

    Can you want Cathay? Sure. Do most gamers? Probably not.
    Thrones of Britannia: 69/100
    Warhammer II: 73/100
    Warhammer: 79/100
    Attila: 70/100 [Age of Charlemagne: 72/100]
    Rome II: 49/100
    Shogun II: 93/100 [Fall of the Samurai: 95/100]
    Napoleon: 58/100
    Empire: 53/100
    Medieval II: 90/100 [Kingdoms: 90/100]
    Rome I: 88/100
    Medieval I: 92/100
    Shogun I: 84/100
  • Omega_WarriorOmega_Warrior Registered Users Posts: 791
    Seems to me there's a lot of people still in denial that there is actually going to be a 3rd game rather then just Warhammer 1 2.0.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,034
    MrJade said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Out of curiosity... would you change your tune if it turned out that GW had done preparation work for a Cathayan army list that never got published (for whatever reason)?

    Probably, but I sincerely doubt that any serious work had ever been done for them. The closest we ever get is a Bretonnia reskin done for White Dwarf where it was implicitly stated there was no work or desire to make a Cathay army.

    From a TW perspective, Cathay would exacerbate the current mega-map issues, namely turn time, lag, and factions never encountering each other. (As Dwarves, VCs, or GS will you ever encounter the HE or DE? No. As Dorfs or VC will you ever encounter the LM or TKs? No. As Empire or VCs do you encounter HE, DE, LM, or TKs? No.)

    From a lore perspective, CIN is a non-starter.

    Again, there are many things that both a TW-centric gamer can want more, and from a lore-centric gamer, there are few things less important.

    Can you want Cathay? Sure. Do most gamers? Probably not.
    Eh, I've seen that article. It was showcasing an army made by a player, which is something that WD does occasionally. Doesn't really imply anything one way or another regarding GW's intentions.

    I think, from a lore perspective, there's enough on Cathay to build from (which, in turn, implies that GW might have been thinking about it at some stage: no other faction has so much detail about its military available without having had an army list at some stage). There is more that I've seen on Cathay than the Amazons or Albion.

    Map issues aside, it's good to know that the presence of serious unpublished work is a factor for you. That's really the big question in all this.
  • SudoKnightlyNonsenseSudoKnightlyNonsense Registered Users Posts: 1,818
    Draxynnic said:



    Eh, I've seen that article. It was showcasing an army made by a player, which is something that WD does occasionally. Doesn't really imply anything one way or another regarding GW's intentions.

    I think, from a lore perspective, there's enough on Cathay to build from (which, in turn, implies that GW might have been thinking about it at some stage: no other faction has so much detail about its military available without having had an army list at some stage). There is more that I've seen on Cathay than the Amazons or Albion.

    Map issues aside, it's good to know that the presence of serious unpublished work is a factor for you. That's really the big question in all this.

    To be fair, the Amazons do have a fanbase from the Bloodbowl and Mordheim communities: the latter actually gave some (very slim) basis for how they might function. Having a pre-established fanbase is important because it would allow for a wider and more reliable consumer base, plus I've seen a lot more people on here that are curious about the Amazons, Araby, Estalia, Tilea, Albion, Middenheim, ect than Cathay/Ind/Nippon combined: not to mention the fact that all of them have had some TT models (in some form) all the way up to 6th edition and (in the case of Middenheim + other Empire States) even up to 8th. That's a lot more than one can say about the WH East.

    Cathay, from what I've seen, has only gotten a footnote-worthy fanbase after TW Warhammer started: with much of it being people who just want to slap China into TW: WH for the sake of having China. Even then it only really started after those two kiddies applied social pressure by broadcasting them delivering that China map to Ca and GW and slapping "Warhammer" on it.
    Draxynnic said:


    That's a bit of a misrepresentation. The Tower of Ashstair sequence involved a significant portion of a Chaos horde (Sayl held his human forces back so he had the plausible deniability of being able to say the Beastmen attacked without order - said plausible deniability is the only reason he wasn't executed by a furious Tamurkhan for squandering a lot of troops) being taken out by the defenders of a minor outpost, which, incidentally, out-magicked a Tzeentchian coven along the way.

    Broadly speaking, there's a tendency in all army books, especially in later editions, to glorify victories of that race and downplay all but the most historically significant defeats. Forming your opinion on Cathay's actual strength from the viewpoint of other race's army books is like forming your opinion of French military history from Albino Blacksheep.

    "The armybooks showing them losing isn't accurate." How so? These are the sources we have and if people are going to pick the crumbs from them they need to look at the entire truth, not to mention how easily Cathay was sabotaged and rolled over by Chaos/Chaos Dwarves in the End Times novels. Some Cathay fans (the rare few who actually pay attention to their lore) base their arguments for Cathay off the Armybooks, so why should it be okay to nitpick the things they wish to fit their own narrative of "Glorious Cathay Steel/Magic."

    Also, as I said, the Cathay outpost was being overrun by Beastmen of all things: which is exactly what I said in my earlier post. Beastmen are horrible in sieges, probably the worst at them, with the finest example of this being that they decided to climb up the walls. Beastmen are the whipping-boys of Warhammer Fantasy, GW has a history and reputation of thoroughly abusing them and THEY backed the Cathay garrison into a corner.

    I will give their mages credit, as the main thing Cathay seems to have going for it is it's Magic: but the performance of their soldiers makes me shake my head. They had Constructs to counter the Minotaurs/Ghorgons, they had "Thousand Folded swords" ("Glorious Cathay Steel" memes ahoy, not bashing but I find it funny) and they had incredible Gunpowder-Swag that would make a Nuln Engineer drool so much it would flood the Chaos Wastes.

    This is why I find it absurd when Cathay fans try to claim the nation is the "most powerful nation in Warhammer" (yes, I've seen that claim: or "just" the most powerful Human nation), Cathay has impressive magic and technology for a Human nation but their actual military seems a tad squishy. My theory is that, after making the Great Bastion, Cathay has more-or-less relied on that and their magical prowess to protect their lands: hence their military-proper became overly ornate and complacent.

    "CA can work with GW to add them in." The same could be said about Araby, which is actually one of the most important non-book nations of the setting: if not the most. Besides, the more stuff is "added in" without having any major lore precedence the more we risk "Estalian Angels" (metaphorically speaking) finding their way in the game. As for Araby and Friends...

    Araby had a major war with the Empire, Bretonnia, Estalia and Tilea that resulted in the founding of most of the most prestigious Knightly Orders in the Empire: including, but not limited to, the Knights of the Blazing Sun and the Knight's Panther. Not only that, but Araby is a major player in world-trade and is the hub of expeditions into Tomb King lands: plus their lands and cities have been portrayed in detail before, while we can only guess what Cathay is like or the most part.

    Estalia and Tilea are major players in the mercenary trade and they are the main Human forces forming colonies in (and exploring) Lustria: they are a giant pain in the tush for the Lizardmen. The Amazons are, more or less, obscure but are enemies of the Lizardmen and have some minor cultural detail given in 6th edition. Albion is visited in the Gotrek/Felix novels (which is probably where it's main fan-base comes from) and was the site of a big tournament which detailed which book-faction would take control of it.

    But there is no faction more important, more pivotal, more setting-shaking.... than the Pygmies! :D

    But, as others have said, it would put far too much strain on the map: I doubt it would do CA any good to have a repeat of the Mortal Empires release. CA made their "great plan" well before they released Warhammer 1 and, while they did make it clear that things can change they probably would not do something as big as Cathay: especially not for a measly DLC.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, Cathay for Game 3 is absurd and should not take the place of the more established factions: but I am not against the faction itself. Cathay fans should really, REALLY push for CA to extend their deal with GW and make a Warhammer 4.

    Why? Because, if you look at the map, the Warhammer East is massive and could easily be it's own game. Cathay/Ind/Nippon easily cover enough space to have a fantastic title of their own and it's a crying shame that more people don't seem to realize that, condensing Cathay into Game 3 would be a slap to whatever they replace and it would be a slap to Cathay itself.

    Not only that, but the East easily has enough factions to make up it's own title. The primary 4 could be: Cathay ("good guys"), Ind (also "good guys"), Hobgoblins ("Bad Guys") and possibly the Snake-Men/Naga civilization ("Bad Guys") of Khuresh. Yes, there is a vague faction of Snake-Men led by "Blood Naga Queens," which are said to be a mix of Dark Elves and Vampires (blood and souls are their currency) with a friendly dose of steroids: they are the ones who made the "White Sistrum" found in the Monstrous Arcanum. Nippon could be one DLC faction, while the Beastmen of Ind/Khuresh could be the other DLC faction due to a possibly different roster and playstyle from the Beastmen we know and love (to kill).

    The Dark Elves could start off in Ind (they frequently raid it), Khairith Irlean (the city they nuked earlier, that got stricken from record) and Tor Elethis to compete with the High Elves; while the HElves could start in Tor Elethis, the Tower of the Rising Sun, the Tower of the Sun and the Gates of Calith. Chaos/Norsca/Daemons could start in the North with the goal of breaching a hole in the Great Bastion, or possibly in an already-established breach at the campaign start. Traditional Beastmen could come from the Southern Chaos Wastes and from the Western mountains along with the Ogres, Chaos Dwarves and Regular Dwarves.

    Lizardmen could be in Khuresh, as there is an unknown Old One ruin there, either in or near said ruin with the goal of taking it and protecting it from the Snake-Men. The Empire, Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts could be on the southern coasts, spread out of course, with some probably starting as main enemies for Ind. Wood Elves... I'm not too sure on, they might fit some random forests: possibly an expedition? Skaven, however, could be everywhere and do have a strong precedent for that: as Clan Eshin hails from the East. They could even be a main opponent for Nippon, as well as a major threat for Cathay.

    So, in conclusion, Cathay would be wasted if added into Game 3. They do, however, have the potential to make for an epic "last hooray" for the Total War Warhammer franchise. I'm tempted to make my own thread on this but I'm hesitant on making a speculation thread, let alone making one when Game 2 still needs so much work.
  • Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Registered Users Posts: 1,365
    edited March 2018
    @SudoKnightlyNonsense

    The Beastmen force attacking the Cathayan watchtower was actually massive. Before the Beastmen even got to the walls, cannons and crossbowmen felled hundreds "in mere moments", but that still wasn't enough to slow the assault. Multiple Ghorgons battered down the gates and sorcerous vines gave the Beastmen makeshift ladders to quickly scale the walls. Once inside, they still had a bitter fight from the Cathayan defenders, who made them pay in blood for every gain they made.

    Far from being unimpressive, the Cathayans driving off the Beastmen is very impressive. Their counterattack after the comet hits is devastating.

    Here's the full account. (Sorry for the bad quality.)



    And just for fun, here's the Siege of the Great Bastion from the 8th edition rulebook.


    Does that sound like a weak race to you?
  • SudoKnightlyNonsenseSudoKnightlyNonsense Registered Users Posts: 1,818
    edited March 2018

    @SudoKnightlyNonsense

    The Beastmen force attacking the Cathayan watchtower was actually massive. Before the Beastmen even got to the walls, cannons and crossbowmen felled hundreds "in mere moments", but that still wasn't enough to slow the assault. Multiple Ghorgons battered down the gates and sorcerous vines gave the Beastmen makeshift ladders to quickly scale the walls. Once inside, they still had a bitter fight from the Cathayan defenders, who made them pay in blood for every gain they made.

    Far from being unimpressive, the Cathayans driving off the Beastmen is very impressive. Their counterattack after the comet hits is devastating.

    Here's the full account. (Sorry for the bad quality.)



    And just for fun, here's the Siege of the Great Bastion from the 8th edition rulebook.


    Does that sound like a weak race to you?

    I've read it, but as I said Cathay fans tend to overplay how powerful Cathay is. Besides that, having walls alone is a giant advantage against the Beastmen: not to mention they are mostly unarmored savages with less wit and skill to them then a Chaos marauder.

    Edit: also, in the second story it makes it clear that the forces of Chaos, as I specifically said before, managed to make it into Cathay's homeland. Not to mention that the Cathay infantry were ultimately beaten back by the Beastmen of all things, requiring magic support to save their hide. That was my main point, my "theory" is that Cathay's magic, artillery and constructs are very good: but that their infantry has become a bit more laid back as a result of these three factors and the Great Bastion.

    This would make perfect sense because Cathay is, from what little we know, one of the more "secure" places in the world most of the time. The Bastion protects the north, sentry towers protect the west and they can more or less use magic to protect their coast. The Empire, on the other hand, has to deal with Chaos incursions, Beastmen essentially 24/7, Necromantic threats, Norscan raids and Orc invasions.

    The Empire, Bretonnia and Kislev are far less secured that Cathay is, as a result it would make sense for their armies to be more prepared for these things. If someone has a bed that can literally make itself, would they bother making it? Of course not, which would result on one to losing their knowledge of how to make beds over time. I imagine this is the problem with Cathay's infantry, not to mention (as said before) their magics, constructs and artillery would probably contribute to this as well: why pay for an army when you can make a Terracotta army for cheaper?
    Post edited by SudoKnightlyNonsense on
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,034
    You seem to be taking a lot of mileage out of the idea that Beastmen are weak.

    As Some_Scribe noted, the Beastmen force as described is one of some significance. The description of the battle also suggests that the courtyard may have been a pre-planned trap, or at least (as was often the case in such sieges) the walls were only an outer layer of defence with a significant reserve force within the central keep: some of the strongest Cathayan forces (the stone creatures and onyx raven-men) have clearly been held back until the counterattack. This isn't a case of 'was about to fall but deus ex machina' - that's a two-layered defence strategy where the outer layer fell, but the inner core remained strong.

    And this is a location described as a far-flung outpost, well outside of the normal Cathayan borders. Even if the Tower had fallen, claiming that Cathay was weak because of it would be like claiming the High Elves are weak because some far-flung outpost of theirs fell before reinforcements could arrive. The High Elves have lost outposts (and bigger settlements) multiple times throughout their history, but are still one of the stronger and most impactful groups in the setting.

    Regarding some of the other points you've raised:

    On Amazons: They may have a pre-established fanbase, but it's all in skirmish-level stuff. Everything we've seen suggests that the Amazons don't really have enough numbers to go above that level. I've certainly seen nothing to indicate that they're capable of fielding TWW-scale armies of hundreds of women, let alone what units such an army might have.

    For Cathay... I can (and have) put together a draft list of about a dozen units just off things that are specifically mentioned in the fluff. A little bit of extrapolation, research, and a few weapon-switches expand that out to a full Warhammer list. Easy.

    On the map: There were people advocating for the possibility of Cathay well before that happened.

    Personally, I was sceptical myself when I first saw the suggestion - until somebody did the research and demonstrated that there was enough fluff tidbits floating around to get an idea of at least what the general shape of the Cathayan military would be.

    I haven't seen anyone manage to do that for the Amazons. Or Albion. If somebody does, then I'll reconsider my position on those two. (Although I still maintain that both are minor powers compared to Cathay. Or even compared to Athel Loren.)

    On the End Times: Everybody got rolled over by the end in the End Times. That was kinda the point. (Okay, arguably the elves in Athel Loren were still intact when the world ended. Maybe a dwarf hold or two. Everything else was destroyed, though.)

    Even then, as I recall, Cathay weathered the initial Chaos attacks and then was knocked over before they could recover by the Beast-Waaagh! It may have happened offscreen, but they actually seem to have done at least as well as the Empire did - remembering that by the end, the Empire was basically a refugee camp in Athel Loren.

    I don't really think "died in the End Times" is really a solid argument here. By that yardstick, every Order faction is too weak to include.

    On the bias of Army Books: I invite you to compare and contrast the High Elf and Dark Elf 8E army books, particularly the recent history snippets section. If you just read the High Elf one, you'd think the High Elves were kicking everyone's butts around the park (except Mannfred, but that's an End Times setup). If you just read the Dark Elf one, you'd think the Dark Elves were winning everywhere and the High Elves couldn't lift a spear to save their lives. You need to read both to get the full picture.

    We don't have the full picture for Cathay - we've never heard their side of the story. But even then, we know they've had a few victories, and we know they're still there despite having faced significant opposition, including at least one significant Chaos incursion.

    On Araby and TEB: I've always advocated for these two as well. Next?

    On Albion: I have the campaign documentation for that global campaign you're talking about (no one army book took complete control: I believe the winners were the Dark Elves, High Elves, Dwarfs and Empire, while the Dark Elves, Empire, Lizardmen, and, I think, the greenskins all established colonies, and then the Lizardmen restored the mists in a later armybook, effectively claiming it for themselves. In an earlier post in this thread, I quoted every reference to the human natives of Albion (with the exception of the Truthsayers) in the campaign book.

    There's... not a lot. Certainly not enough to build an army list from. Unlike Cathay.

    I haven't read the Gotrek & Felix book, so maybe there's more there? I'm open to reconsidering my position on Albion if someone can demonstrate (with official references) that there genuinely is enough material to build an army list from.

    On the concept that including Cathay in Game 3 would be "a slap to whatever they replace": To make this argument, you need to answer the question:

    What are they replacing?

    Part of the reason Cathay has gained so much traction is the realisation that the remaining 'army book' races comprise a group of fairly destructive and raiding-oriented factions (DoC, Dawi-Zharr, and ogres), with no faction that could actually serve as the beacon of civilisation to fight them off (or drown beneath the unstoppable tide).

    People have raised the idea of Kislev being the target, but if the climax for Chaos in the Game 3 campaign is just knocking over Kislev, then that's a bit disappointing. I've said it before, it'd be like a 1914 Western Front strategy game where, playing as the Germans, you can't enter France and declare victory when you've taken over Belgium. It's cutting the campaign short at the preamble and skipping the whole point of the exercise.

    For the Game 3 non-mega-campaign campaign to work, there needs to be a satisfyingly substantial civilised region for the Chaos forces to destroy. Either incorporating the Old World in its entirety, or putting Cathay on the eastern side of the map and having that be the target.

    Those are the options. I can see either working, but the idea some people have of just squeezing a bit of Kislev into the corner and leaving off the rest of the Old World simply won't work.

    Combined campaign map size is a potential issue, but it's probably not unreasonable for CA to assume that the average player's computer capabilities will have improved by the time Game 3 rolls around. Furthermore, your idea of having a Far East Warhammer 4 just compounds the issue, since that would presumably add more to the ultimate map. There's also the aspect that while there is a fair amount floating around on the Cathayan military, Nippon just has a couple of pre-4E units, and I haven't come across anything specific for Ind or Khuresh.
  • SudoKnightlyNonsenseSudoKnightlyNonsense Registered Users Posts: 1,818
    Draxynnic said:

    You seem to be taking a lot of mileage out of the idea that Beastmen are weak.

    As Some_Scribe noted, the Beastmen force as described is one of some significance. The description of the battle also suggests that the courtyard may have been a pre-planned trap, or at least (as was often the case in such sieges) the walls were only an outer layer of defence with a significant reserve force within the central keep: some of the strongest Cathayan forces (the stone creatures and onyx raven-men) have clearly been held back until the counterattack. This isn't a case of 'was about to fall but deus ex machina' - that's a two-layered defence strategy where the outer layer fell, but the inner core remained strong.

    And this is a location described as a far-flung outpost, well outside of the normal Cathayan borders. Even if the Tower had fallen, claiming that Cathay was weak because of it would be like claiming the High Elves are weak because some far-flung outpost of theirs fell before reinforcements could arrive. The High Elves have lost outposts (and bigger settlements) multiple times throughout their history, but are still one of the stronger and most impactful groups in the setting.

    Regarding some of the other points you've raised:

    On Amazons: They may have a pre-established fanbase, but it's all in skirmish-level stuff. Everything we've seen suggests that the Amazons don't really have enough numbers to go above that level. I've certainly seen nothing to indicate that they're capable of fielding TWW-scale armies of hundreds of women, let alone what units such an army might have.

    For Cathay... I can (and have) put together a draft list of about a dozen units just off things that are specifically mentioned in the fluff. A little bit of extrapolation, research, and a few weapon-switches expand that out to a full Warhammer list. Easy.

    On the map: There were people advocating for the possibility of Cathay well before that happened.

    Personally, I was sceptical myself when I first saw the suggestion - until somebody did the research and demonstrated that there was enough fluff tidbits floating around to get an idea of at least what the general shape of the Cathayan military would be.

    I haven't seen anyone manage to do that for the Amazons. Or Albion. If somebody does, then I'll reconsider my position on those two. (Although I still maintain that both are minor powers compared to Cathay. Or even compared to Athel Loren.)

    On the End Times: Everybody got rolled over by the end in the End Times. That was kinda the point. (Okay, arguably the elves in Athel Loren were still intact when the world ended. Maybe a dwarf hold or two. Everything else was destroyed, though.)

    Even then, as I recall, Cathay weathered the initial Chaos attacks and then was knocked over before they could recover by the Beast-Waaagh! It may have happened offscreen, but they actually seem to have done at least as well as the Empire did - remembering that by the end, the Empire was basically a refugee camp in Athel Loren.

    I don't really think "died in the End Times" is really a solid argument here. By that yardstick, every Order faction is too weak to include.

    On the bias of Army Books: I invite you to compare and contrast the High Elf and Dark Elf 8E army books, particularly the recent history snippets section. If you just read the High Elf one, you'd think the High Elves were kicking everyone's butts around the park (except Mannfred, but that's an End Times setup). If you just read the Dark Elf one, you'd think the Dark Elves were winning everywhere and the High Elves couldn't lift a spear to save their lives. You need to read both to get the full picture.

    We don't have the full picture for Cathay - we've never heard their side of the story. But even then, we know they've had a few victories, and we know they're still there despite having faced significant opposition, including at least one significant Chaos incursion.

    On Araby and TEB: I've always advocated for these two as well. Next?

    On Albion: I have the campaign documentation for that global campaign you're talking about (no one army book took complete control: I believe the winners were the Dark Elves, High Elves, Dwarfs and Empire, while the Dark Elves, Empire, Lizardmen, and, I think, the greenskins all established colonies, and then the Lizardmen restored the mists in a later armybook, effectively claiming it for themselves. In an earlier post in this thread, I quoted every reference to the human natives of Albion (with the exception of the Truthsayers) in the campaign book.

    There's... not a lot. Certainly not enough to build an army list from. Unlike Cathay.

    I haven't read the Gotrek & Felix book, so maybe there's more there? I'm open to reconsidering my position on Albion if someone can demonstrate (with official references) that there genuinely is enough material to build an army list from.

    On the concept that including Cathay in Game 3 would be "a slap to whatever they replace": To make this argument, you need to answer the question:

    What are they replacing?

    Part of the reason Cathay has gained so much traction is the realization that the remaining 'army book' races comprise a group of fairly destructive and raiding-oriented factions (DoC, Dawi-Zharr, and ogres), with no faction that could actually serve as the beacon of civilization to fight them off (or drown beneath the unstoppable tide).

    People have raised the idea of Kislev being the target, but if the climax for Chaos in the Game 3 campaign is just knocking over Kislev, then that's a bit disappointing. I've said it before, it'd be like a 1914 Western Front strategy game where, playing as the Germans, you can't enter France and declare victory when you've taken over Belgium. It's cutting the campaign short at the preamble and skipping the whole point of the exercise.

    For the Game 3 non-mega-campaign campaign to work, there needs to be a satisfyingly substantial civilized region for the Chaos forces to destroy. Either incorporating the Old World in its entirety, or putting Cathay on the eastern side of the map and having that be the target.

    Those are the options. I can see either working, but the idea some people have of just squeezing a bit of Kislev into the corner and leaving off the rest of the Old World simply won't work.

    Combined campaign map size is a potential issue, but it's probably not unreasonable for CA to assume that the average player's computer capabilities will have improved by the time Game 3 rolls around. Furthermore, your idea of having a Far East Warhammer 4 just compounds the issue, since that would presumably add more to the ultimate map. There's also the aspect that while there is a fair amount floating around on the Cathayan military, Nippon just has a couple of pre-4E units, and I haven't come across anything specific for Ind or Khuresh.

    I'm saying the Beastmen are weak in sieges, they had to climb the walls and the closest thing to a siege weapon they have is their big beasts: not to mention their archers are unreliable in the best of times. Also, there is nothing there that even remotely suggested that them being pushed back was a "just as planned" moment: counter-attacking is obviously going to happen if an advantage is gained. As for the encirclement, it's painfully easy to outflank an enemy that is blinded. It struck me more as a last resort than anything, because they could probably see the reserves in the distance.

    Because they had to use their "delete" button on Beastmen, without even having engaged the real threat: the forces of Sayl the Faithless. They lost a lot to what, for all they knew, was the chaff and if Sayl had actually attacked he might have been able to take the outpost: though we do not know for certain. That's my point, they did well in the kill count but in terms of what they gained for what they lost the defense force could have done better.

    As I said before, I'm not saying Cathay's infantry is weak because of some silly belief that they might be "inferior" or something. I'm saying that Cathay seems to be one of the most peaceful and prosperous Human nations in the setting, which would naturally result in a degradation of troop quality over time. Think about it, the only major military threat Cathay has to deal with on a regular basis is the Hobgoblin Khanate: composed of a notoriously craven and traitorous race.

    Cathay made it's defenses and they made them well, but now the infantry probably don't have anywhere near as much to actually do besides patrolling or (in the case of the west towers) fend off the odd raid here or there. Meanwhile, the Empire has patrols that regularly need to cull populations of Beastmen, Orcs, Trolls, Undead, Heretics, Turnips (thanks Marius), ect and the same applies for most of the other Human nations in the "main" Warhammer map: as well as other races. Combined, as I stated before, with Cathay's affinity for magic, blackpowder and constructs I would say the soldiers of Cathay and it's generals generally feel like the nation is safe enough.

    There's also the fact that Cathay's main ruling council, which (so it implied) essentially writes the laws that even the big DE (Dragon Emprah) has to comply to most of the time, was infiltrated and taken over by Tzeentch worshipers. This, in my opinion, shows that Cathay has gotten rusty on handling infiltration: especially of the Chaotic nature. That's my main point on Cathay's strength, I feel like their incredible prosperity has made them rusty.

    It's logical, if a nation stays incredibly secure too long then it's soldiers lose their edge: even if it's folded a thousand times (I will not stop mentioning it, the Japanese aspect in a China faction is hilarious). If Cathay is ever implemented, I think it would be neat to have their infantry be a tad sub-par (in campaign) for their cost to show that the soldiery of Cathay became complacent: with more infantry-improvement coming from technology than any other faction to represent a resurgence of Cathayan martial prowess over time.

    Amazons and Albion, I would like to say, would not fit on the map at all either: I'd rather they are added into a Dogs of War army as it would fit better. My main point on them was that they have old and established fanbases, but even then I agree that making them into entire armies would be silly. But regarding Albion, yes the continent is indeed prominent in the Gotrek and Felix novels: Giantslayer at least. Mind you, I'm pretty sure it doesn't give much detail for an army: I'm just giving an example of the land having precedence for a fanbase.

    I'd argue that some of the other nations actually did better in the End Times, but just by a knife's edge. The Empire was able to purge itself for a little while and hold back the Everchosen's invasion, the main focus of all 4 Chaos Gods as well as the Horned Rat mind you, long enough for the setting's finale. Bretonnia did worse than Cathay I believe, as even with Giles le Breton coming to save their bacon they all died off to the Skaven. Kislev, Tilea, Estalia and the Border Princes got stomped faster than you can say "bacon:" so I'll give Cathay that.

    Dwarves decided to close the door and put a "do not disturb" sign up, which the Skaven ignored. High Elves and Dark Elves decided to squat in Athel Loren after Teclis's "brilliant" plan (destroy the Vortex, thus letting Daemons swarm the world, then rebuild it in Middenheim?) sunk Ulthuan, much to the WElf's ire. Lizardmen kept the entire world from being nuked after Skaven blew up Morrslieb and then went off into space, while the Tomb Kings had defeated the forces of Nagash and only fell due to a silly plot-armor trick. Araby actually did super well, they managed to hold back the Skaven hosts so thoroughly that the Skaven just poisoned their wells. The Skaven, who consider their minions to be as expendable as a grain of sand, were forced to use those kinds of methods to take down Araby: I'd say that's pretty darn impressive.

    As for Game 3: Ogre Kingdoms, Daemons of Chaos, Chaos Dwarves, Kislev, (possibly) Nagash and the Lahmian bloodline as factions. The last two are pure speculation, mind you, but Nagash is popular and I think the Lahmian Vampires deserve their own faction due to how drastically different they should be. I'm not mentioning Hobgoblins because, as mentioned before, I think we should push for an extension of the series so that a Game 4 could have the East as it's focus.

    As for "targets," they could and definitely should include the Empire to some degree. Chaos was meant to be the "boss faction" of Game 1, but CA bent to the demand to make them playable. That is why, I believe, that the Empire will be the "boss faction" for Warhammer 3. They could, and definitely should, make Middenland at the very least a playable faction in Game 3: the other Counties would also be very good and would only require a few extra units.

    Nagash is, beyond doubt, one of the most important characters in the setting: not including him would be nothing short of a "crime."Neferata is the First Vampire, not to mention her focus on infiltration and intrigue could make for an incredibly interesting faction. Neferata could, technically, be made a Vampire Countess LL: but I personally don't think that's a good option. Nagash should, like Arkhan the Black, be a mix of Tomb King and Vampire Count rosters: but with a focus on Vampire Counts rather than vice-versa.
  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,888
    edited March 2018



    Why? Because, if you look at the map, the Warhammer East is massive and could easily be it's own game. Cathay/Ind/Nippon easily cover enough space to have a fantastic title of their own and it's a crying shame that more people don't seem to realize that, condensing Cathay into Game 3 would be a slap to whatever they replace and it would be a slap to Cathay itself.

    There, right there is were you stumble. If we take this map for campaign at game#3

    Cathay replaces NOBODY.
    Because literally you have nobody else better for the core race problem.

    You need (which means everybody now wants and expects after two games doing it so) 4 core races and probably one Preorder race. And then you probably need someone for DLC left.
    Chaos Dwarfs & Ogre Kingdoms are core. No way around it. Daemons are most likely the third. That's like two Destruction and one Neutral, while the other two games had always two Order and two Destruction.

    You have now Kislev left on the side, who can be squeezed in as fourth core race or be a perfect preorder match, similar to Norsca.

    And after that? Who else is there? Which place would Cathay occupy?
    • Hobgoblin Khanate has certainly not more lore then Cathay. We can't even place them satisfying on the map since they horde around and we still have not even current Goblins for a real little WAAAGH fleshed out, so hoping for that bunch of ragtag traitors is stretching really hard. Hobgoblins will be part of the Chaos Dwarf army roster and we migth see some rogue armies of them roaming around. That's probably it.
    • Gnoblar hordes? Pff, don't make me laugh. Part of Ogre Kingdoms. If CA is funny enough, mabye rogue armies again.
    • Dogs of War? Placing them ANYWHERE in the Dark Lands is really pushing some buttons when Old & new World are way superior choices for an easy implementation and not just a small outpost looking over a trade route. Ironicly there is a larger force of them stationed in Cathay ^^
    • Kurgan/Mung/Tong? Would it really be better to have another chaos driven barbarian tribe getting a bit fleshed out? Norsca was already the pinnacle of them regarding lore & having at least a armylist once in their lifetime. These leftover tribes have way less to go on.
    • Nagahszizzar Undead? Besides that there is literally all work on the units done already, the chances of that happening dropped immensly after the Black Pyramid scam.
    And if Cathay is "not fleshed out enough" anyway to be fit on the map, all these contenders for a game#3 campaign map spot are basicly beneath that.
    So if Cathay really does not "replace" someone more important and we have way less suitable candidates for the open fourth core slot, what are we even talking about?

    [sidenote: if you really want to spearhead The (horrible) Endtimes in how insignificant Cathay is, since a bunch of Chaos steamrolled them, the same bunch of godly intervened plothero Chaos steamrolled Kislev as a sidenote. They also steamrolled the Auric Bastion (u know, the Empires magical great Bastion to stop Chaos) and then the entire Empire. We could also say that the great mighty Lustria Lizards, like Tilea, Etsalia and Border Princes, got steamrolled by puny little Skaven. So what does that say over their "power" as a major player holding a good bit on the wolrdmap landmass? And for the record: TWW is not The (horrible) Endtimes scenario, so the whole story from there is irrelevant to begin with. Which kinda makes it even more redundant to use the horrible written Endtimes as an argument to "measure" Cathays power.]

    ------Red Dox
  • BaronKlatzBaronKlatz Registered Users Posts: 1,037
    The End Times does help Cathay's case a little, though.

    Towards the end after Grimgor left they were one of the few races able to hold some territory and reform themselves instead of being completely wiped out (the other one was Araby who were able to hold off the Skaven until the moon fragments hit). The emperor won back some territories and then gathered his remaining people to sail for parts unknown. (I theorize they made it to the next setting in AoS and formed the oriental-styled Steppe Khanates empire. The sky titans do a similar thing by flying away in magic vessels in 8th edition and ended up as allies of the Khanate so there's a connection there.)

    So they at least proved themselves better than most who got wiped out off-screen in that instance.

    Though I don't agree with weaknesses shown to be a reason to not include them I do agree with Sudoknight in showing they aren't a invincible mystic faction.

    I see them as human high elves for that reason in a bad light as well, since the Cathay fan base started getting steam there's been some unsettling ideas from them that ring with how High elf fans wanted their race to be OP and basically mary sues with things like gunpowder artillery that far exceeds anything the Empire made and rivals the chaos dwarfs. O.o

    I know CA would balance them accordingly but I do hope the fans will lower their expectations of how powerful the Cathayans would be and not repeat the high elf salt days if they don't match the hype.



  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,034
    @SudoKnightlyNonsense Sure, if the entire Chaos horde had gone for the tower, it probably would have fallen.

    We're talking about a Chaos horde that posed a significant threat to Nuln, one of the biggest Imperial cities, after having taken quite a bit of attrition all the way. The tower was a watchpost out in the middle of hostile territory a long way from home. The fact that it took a noticeable chunk out of the Chaos horde and was left standing - even if the latter was in part a result of internal politics of the aforementioned Chaos horde - is impressive.

    I also wouldn't discount the effectiveness of Ghorgons as living battering rams.

    @BaronKlatz Yeah, to be honest, I'm expecting that most things that Cathay has that the Empire shares, the Empire's version will actually prove to be a little bit better (in part because of the complacency aspect that SudoKnightly mentions, in fact: that's a common theme in Chinese history, and the guardians of the Tower could be viewed as an exceptionally vigilant group because they are in an exposed and dangerous location. In particular, what we see of Cathayan artillery suggests it's less advanced: their anti-infantry solution, for instance, is to fire clusters of javelins out of a cannon, which is quite a primitive approach compared to the likes of mortars and Hellblasters.
  • SudoKnightlyNonsenseSudoKnightlyNonsense Registered Users Posts: 1,818
    Red_Dox said:



    Why? Because, if you look at the map, the Warhammer East is massive and could easily be it's own game. Cathay/Ind/Nippon easily cover enough space to have a fantastic title of their own and it's a crying shame that more people don't seem to realize that, condensing Cathay into Game 3 would be a slap to whatever they replace and it would be a slap to Cathay itself.

    There, right there is were you stumble. If we take this map for campaign at game#3

    Cathay replaces NOBODY.
    Because literally you have nobody else better for the core race problem.

    You need (which means everybody now wants and expects after two games doing it so) 4 core races and probably one Preorder race. And then you probably need someone for DLC left.
    Chaos Dwarfs & Ogre Kingdoms are core. No way around it. Daemons are most likely the third. That's like two Destruction and one Neutral, while the other two games had always two Order and two Destruction.

    You have now Kislev left on the side, who can be squeezed in as fourth core race or be a perfect preorder match, similar to Norsca.

    And after that? Who else is there? Which place would Cathay occupy?
    • Hobgoblin Khanate has certainly not more lore then Cathay. We can't even place them satisfying on the map since they horde around and we still have not even current Goblins for a real little WAAAGH fleshed out, so hoping for that bunch of ragtag traitors is stretching really hard. Hobgoblins will be part of the Chaos Dwarf army roster and we migth see some rogue armies of them roaming around. That's probably it.
    • Gnoblar hordes? Pff, don't make me laugh. Part of Ogre Kingdoms. If CA is funny enough, mabye rogue armies again.
    • Dogs of War? Placing them ANYWHERE in the Dark Lands is really pushing some buttons when Old & new World are way superior choices for an easy implementation and not just a small outpost looking over a trade route. Ironicly there is a larger force of them stationed in Cathay ^^
    • Kurgan/Mung/Tong? Would it really be better to have another chaos driven barbarian tribe getting a bit fleshed out? Norsca was already the pinnacle of them regarding lore & having at least a armylist once in their lifetime. These leftover tribes have way less to go on.
    • Nagahszizzar Undead? Besides that there is literally all work on the units done already, the chances of that happening dropped immensly after the Black Pyramid scam.
    And if Cathay is "not fleshed out enough" anyway to be fit on the map, all these contenders for a game#3 campaign map spot are basicly beneath that.
    So if Cathay really does not "replace" someone more important and we have way less suitable candidates for the open fourth core slot, what are we even talking about?

    [sidenote: if you really want to spearhead The (horrible) Endtimes in how insignificant Cathay is, since a bunch of Chaos steamrolled them, the same bunch of godly intervened plothero Chaos steamrolled Kislev as a sidenote. They also steamrolled the Auric Bastion (u know, the Empires magical great Bastion to stop Chaos) and then the entire Empire. We could also say that the great mighty Lustria Lizards, like Tilea, Etsalia and Border Princes, got steamrolled by puny little Skaven. So what does that say over their "power" as a major player holding a good bit on the wolrdmap landmass? And for the record: TWW is not The (horrible) Endtimes scenario, so the whole story from there is irrelevant to begin with. Which kinda makes it even more redundant to use the horrible written Endtimes as an argument to "measure" Cathays power.]

    ------Red Dox


    If Cathay fans would rather ignore the classic fight between Chaos and the Old world in favor of the East then they really don't know diddly about Warhammer: especially since some of them seem to think Nagash is not important. The battles between the Empire and Chaos essentially form the core of the setting and yet that should be shelved for the East? We fought off the hordes of Chaos in Game 1 (remember, CA never intended for WoC in game 1 to be playable), now we should get a chance to burn down the Empire: it would bring the series to a full circle.

    Not to mention that the Lizardmen are being discredited for saving the world by re-directing the meteors of Morrslieb (which was blown up by the "puny" Skaven) into Lustria and literally sacrificing their homeland. They can move continents, destroy entire naval expeditions funded by a certain Emperor like it is nothing and they were able to move the asteroids from an entire moon at what is essentially the drop of a dime: and yet they're somehow "weak" because of that? They also buggered out in hopes of starting something better, the Lizardmen were able to tell that things were going to Chaos in a handbasket and had the means to do so: good on them I say.

    But calling the Skaven "puny?" The Skaven have a massive empire that literally spans across nearly every corner of the setting, the only place they can't burrow into (Ulthuan) is disconnected from the world. The Skaven have some of the most potent, and volatile, technological horrors in the setting and breed monsters could easily smash down gates. The Skaven's numbers are absurd, they are the closest thing to the Imperial Guard of 40k in that regard, as well as possessing arcane users, plagues and sneaky agents that one should not scoff at.

    But here's the thing, the Skaven don't fight fair: this has been shown many times and most notably in the Vermintide series they are shown as launching invasions from within the settlements of their enemies. They are also the reason Nagash was stopped during his first attempt to turn the world into an undead hellhole, if it wasn't for them Alcadizaar would have been swatted aside: assuming he found a way to escape at all. Like it or not, the Skaven are one of the most important factions in the setting: so calling them "puny" with a straight face (metaphorically speaking) is absurd at best.

    Here's the real kicker, I despise the Skaven and the Lizardmen. They are my two least favorite races in Warhammer Fantasy and the Skaven are my least favorite fantasy race period, yet I'm willing to acknowledge that they (and the Lizardmen) are factions that are actually important to the setting. Discrediting them for the sake of arguing for the inclusion of Thousand-Folded-Empire should be in Game 3 makes it seem like the one making that argument would rather have their OC inserted into the setting than give the lore any sort of respect.

    Also, Black Pyramid scam? Are you referring to the Tomb Kings dlc? Because last time I checked CA never scammed anyone with that, unless there was some sort of trick they used to magically spend their money on the dlc.

    Nitpicking certain words of people's point just to try and derail the conversation does not do any good, not once did I say Dogs of War should be in Game 3: I was simply mentioning that, if Albion and Amazons get added at all, it should be with them. DoW should definitely be a Game 2 DLC, having them appear in Game 3 would be silly.

    But not including the End Times for what now? People seem to be eager to point out how powerful Cathay supposedly was in those books and yet it's not okay to use them as a counter argument? If we're going by the "it's not Total War timeline" argument then that gives Cathay even less precedence to be included, since the End Times is an official GW product and they are the ones who ultimately give the "yay or nay" to CA's more creative decisions.

    Why? Simple, because the TW timeline is mainly 8th edition with bits of 7th thrown in: therefore the argument that anything released before 7th edition is not to be considered. If we go by that logic, then the 3rd edition armybook pieces on Cathay goes right out the window: which is funny because I've seen those used a lot. Just because someone doesn't like certain books does not mean those books are magically disqualified unless the material suits the person's agenda, it's as simple as that.

    "Who are we removing?" As mentioned in the 1st paragraph, adding Cathay would rob players of the chance to fight the main enemy of Chaos: Sigmar's Empire.
  • SudoKnightlyNonsenseSudoKnightlyNonsense Registered Users Posts: 1,818
    Draxynnic said:

    @SudoKnightlyNonsense Sure, if the entire Chaos horde had gone for the tower, it probably would have fallen.

    We're talking about a Chaos horde that posed a significant threat to Nuln, one of the biggest Imperial cities, after having taken quite a bit of attrition all the way. The tower was a watchpost out in the middle of hostile territory a long way from home. The fact that it took a noticeable chunk out of the Chaos horde and was left standing - even if the latter was in part a result of internal politics of the aforementioned Chaos horde - is impressive.

    I also wouldn't discount the effectiveness of Ghorgons as living battering rams.

    @BaronKlatz Yeah, to be honest, I'm expecting that most things that Cathay has that the Empire shares, the Empire's version will actually prove to be a little bit better (in part because of the complacency aspect that SudoKnightly mentions, in fact: that's a common theme in Chinese history, and the guardians of the Tower could be viewed as an exceptionally vigilant group because they are in an exposed and dangerous location. In particular, what we see of Cathayan artillery suggests it's less advanced: their anti-infantry solution, for instance, is to fire clusters of javelins out of a cannon, which is quite a primitive approach compared to the likes of mortars and Hellblasters.

    I'm sorry, I was less than clear when referring to those situations: I was talking about two separate occurrences. The Tower had no internal politics to speak of, plus they had to expend a lot to deal with what was essentially a chaff force. As mentioned, they could probably see Sayl's main force (he was on top of a Chaos mammoth) and thus they had to assume those were the "reserves:" seeing as they had no idea he'd just bugger off.

    My argument was that, while they did kick the Beastmen's teeth in, they spent a lot doing so: which could have cost them the battle of Sayl had actually attacked. That's probably why they didn't use their "nuke spell" earlier, the defending mages were trying to save it for the second wave: but were forced to use it sooner due to their forces being pushed back. I'm arguing that it's a "won the battle, but not the war" situation, if it was only the Beastmen or of Sayl made a point of keeping his horde hidden then it could easily be chalked up as a grand victory for Grand Cathay.

    Also, Sayl's forces that are mentioned in that story are not the entire Horde that threatened Nuln, Sayl was a Chaos Sorceror Lord in service of a Chaos Lord: what I'm saying is that Sayl's splinter group could have probably taken the tower if Sayl had dedicated his own troops alongside the Beastmen horde he sent in. He did not do this, however, so that there would be no accountability: as he had no permission to attack said tower.

    Of course, there's no way of knowing for certain whether or not Sayl dedicating his forces would have made a difference: for all we know the defenders could have more secrets at their disposal. We do not have solid numbers besides the "dozen" War Mammoths Sayl never committed to the fight, so for all we know the Cathay defenders could have killed 10,000 Beastmen while only losing 2000 actual warriors.

    The second situation I mentioned was from the End Times, where the High Council of Cathay essentially blocked the Dragon Emperor from doing anything as the Chaos Dwarves opened a hole in the Great Bastion. After Chaos was running rampant the Dragon Emperor took control and managed to hold off what was left, but then decided to evacuate when Grimgor came to play. Again, sorry for not making the fact that these two instances are separate occasions clearer.

    But I do agree, those who work on the border would have to be far better trained and prepared for whatever nightmares try to make it into the mainland: the problem is that they are definitely spread thin. Not to mention that Cathay, so confident in the Bastion and so peaceful because of it, would almost completely forgo building more fortresses. This, combined with non-border soldiers being complacent, could easily explain why Chaos has a habit of steamrolling through Cathay whenever the Bastion is breached.

    There is also the issue of magic being powerful in Cathay, they did sink a Black Ark with magic: while the event was most likely created by GW to make the Black Arks seem scarce it's still a good hint on the nature of Cathay. Their artillery situation could easily be explained by the use of powerful magics, as powerful magic could replace artillery. "Oh we don't need to waste gold improving our canons, that guy in the robes can nuke entire companies."
  • Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Registered Users Posts: 1,365
    edited March 2018
    @SudoKnightlyNonsense

    We're pointing out Cathay's power because Cathay, whenever we see bits of it, is constantly implied to be very big and powerful. A Chaos invasion the size of the one in the Siege of the Great Bastion would be an End Times-level event in the Old World, and the Cathayans still managed to defeat that without any outside help or their wall helping them. The assault on the watchtower WAS an impressive display of Cathayan might if you don't totally undersell it with warped "it means nothing because Beastmen totally suck" logic.

    They've also sent a MASSIVE invasion fleet to conquer the whole Southlands (a typhoon took it out, but the lone survivor's account is in the 5th edition Lizardmen armybook and goes on for multiple pages) and frequently battle the powerful Hobgobbla Khan, whose forces are said to be enormous. They ALSO have to defend against Dark Elf attacks and, according to ancient lore, periodic Nipponese invasions. The Tilean explorers Ricco and Robbio were blown away at how vast Cathay's armies are. And Cathay's been standing strong since Nehekhara was alive and well, making it the longest-lasting human realm in Fantasy. I could go on.

    Cathay doesn't have massive amounts of lore, but when it does comes up, it's always shown or implied to be very big and powerful. Even Josh Reynolds, a writer who's worked for GW, speculates that Cathay is at least around the Empire's power level. Your arguments that they aren't feel like you're grasping at straws.

    Also, the story of the battle between Chaos and the Old World was already told in Game 1. Unless CA and GW want to just rehash that story for Game 3 (which would be pretty lame and make Game 3's events feel like a sideshow compared to Games 1 and 2), they'll have to look to the eastern lands for a good plotline. Adding Cathay can help with that, plus it gives Order players something new to play and Chaos/Ogre players a big, powerful, and NEW target. (Kislev could fill that role too, but not as well because it's frankly not as strong as Cathay. And as for the Empire, do you honestly want to face the same Imperial armies we've been fighting since 2016 instead of something new?)
    Post edited by Some_Scribe on
  • chrissher7chrissher7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,038
    edited March 2018

    Seems to me there's a lot of people still in denial that there is actually going to be a 3rd game rather then just Warhammer 1 2.0.

    There is no such thing as a trilogy with three game. Only warhammer and two large expansions with a first already here. It is just marketing and nothing more although disregarding that there is still enough without having to include a virtual unknown lorewise. There is kislev for a fourth base race to oppose daemons which wouldn’t require a huge overlap. Also there are potential other races in hobgoblins and dogs of war if they aren’t sooner. There is no need to draw on the far east.

  • Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Registered Users Posts: 1,365

    Seems to me there's a lot of people still in denial that there is actually going to be a 3rd game rather then just Warhammer 1 2.0.

    There is no such thing as a trilogy with three game. Only warhammer and two large expansions with a first already here. It is just marketing and nothing more although disregarding that there is still enough without having to include a virtual unknown lorewise. There is kislev for a fourth base race to oppose daemons which wouldn’t require a huge overlap. Also there are potential other races in hobgoblins and dogs of war if they aren’t sooner. There is no need to draw on the far east.
    Dogs of War really don't have a much of a presence in the Darklands, plus it just makes way more sense to add them to Game 1 or 2.

    As for the Hobgoblin Khanate, it lies somewhere to the north of the Mountains of Mourn and Ancient Giant Lands, and it borders Cathay. If they expand the map east enough to include the Hobgoblins, they might as well go a little further and add Cathay, the Khanate's only known enemy. Cathay also has more lore and way more known units than the Hobgoblins (though the Hobgoblins have more named characters alive in the present time if we use their two DoW characters, Ghazak Khan and Oglah Khan), so it'd be easier to make Cathay into a playable race.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,034
    @SudoKnightlyNonsense Actually, I was referring to the internal politics of Tamurkhan's horde. Sayl kept the Dolgans back so he could claim that the Beastmen acted without orders, with the fact that none of his own troops got involved as evidence.

    Most likely, if the entire horde had committed, the tower would have gone down. But Tamurkhan was after bigger fish, and the Beastmen that did attack represented a big enough portion of Tamurkhan's forces that he was ready to execute Sayl over their loss.

    For a minor outpost, this is impressive. They were one of the few survivors of a Chaos horde that basically swept all else before them until they hit Nuln.

    @chrissher7 You're trying to put forward the 'Germany stops the von Schlieffen plan at the French-Belgian border' scenario there.

    There are really two viable approaches for the Game 3 Chaos invasion. Either it's hitting the Old World as a whole, or it's targeting a major civilisation somewhere else. Tucking buffer state Kislev into a corner of the map and calling it done there just isn't going to cut it.
  • SudoKnightlyNonsenseSudoKnightlyNonsense Registered Users Posts: 1,818

    @SudoKnightlyNonsense

    We're pointing out Cathay's power because Cathay, whenever we see bits of it, is constantly implied to be very big and powerful. A Chaos invasion the size of the one in the Siege of the Great Bastion would be an End Times-level event in the Old World, and the Cathayans still managed to defeat that without any outside help or their wall helping them. The assault on the watchtower WAS an impressive display of Cathayan might if you don't totally undersell it with warped "it means nothing because Beastmen totally suck" logic.

    They've also sent a MASSIVE invasion fleet to conquer the whole Southlands (a typhoon took it out, but the lone survivor's account is in the 5th edition Lizardmen armybook and goes on for multiple pages) and frequently battle the powerful Hobgobbla Khan, whose forces are said to be enormous. They ALSO have to defend against Dark Elf attacks and, according to ancient lore, periodic Nipponese invasions. The Tilean explorers Ricco and Robbio were blown away at how vast Cathay's armies are. And Cathay's been standing strong since Nehekhara was alive and well, making it the longest-lasting human realm in Fantasy. I could go on.

    Cathay doesn't have massive amounts of lore, but when it does comes up, it's always shown or implied to be very big and powerful. Even Josh Reynolds, a writer who's worked for GW, speculates that Cathay is at least around the Empire's power level. Your arguments that they aren't feel like you're grasping at straws.

    GW's writers can say all they want outside of the source material, but just because they think something does not make it true. But I digress, my main point is that Cathay is peaceful enough that their armies outside those stationed the border are probably incredibly rusty. Just because Cathay's armies are "vast" does not mean their entire army is up to snuff, not to mention the whole "nation becoming complacent" thing is (as mentioned by someone else) a theme in ancient Chinese history.

    They are never mentioned as having invaded other lands besides the invasion that the Slaan laughed at, though to be fair it was the Slaan. Cathay fans point claim the Hobgoblin Khanate is "powerful" in one post, but then turn around and call them "unimportant" in another: they are Cathay's biggest threat at the moment and therefore they are important, that I can agree with. I'd say nearly everyone has to defend against Dark Elf raids, but to be fair they did manage to sink a Black Ark using magic (hence why I think it's an emphasis for their armies): which is no small feat.

    If we had more fleshed out lore on Cathay that would be, pardon the pun, Grand and I wouldn't be so adamantly against it in Game 3. But that's not the case, as it stands people who want Cathay find themselves digging through the most obscure corners of the book for anything they can find: "grasping at straws" if you will.

    Also, the story of the battle between Chaos and the Old World was already told in Game 1. Unless CA and GW want to just rehash that story for Game 3 (which would be pretty lame and make Game 3's events feel like a sideshow compared to Games 1 and 2)

    That's your opinion, which is fine, but let me point out mine. Cathay is mentioned nowhere in the Data Leak, which has been relatively accurate thus far: the main exception was a small dlc faction, which Cathay is most certainly not. Also, remember that we were not supposed to play Chaos in Game 1 and that CA had the overarching "trilogy" planned in advance. Game 3 was supposed to be our first time playing Chaos, with the first half of the game probably consisting of uniting the forces of the Dark Gods and preparing to invade their hated foe.

    The Empire was essentially the core of Warhammer, Sigmar's hammer is the logo for Throgg's sake. The goal of Chaos has, since the first Everchosen, always been to take out the Empire and Middenheim: Chaos Daemons rampaging through the streets of the Empire would be fabulous in my book, there's nothing "lame" about that. That's the point, the Empire has withstood the forces of Chaos for so long that they are essentially arch-enemies at this point: the Empire is a pivotal focus point of the setting.

    If they can fit Cathay and the Empire into Game 3's map, that would be perfectly fine as well. I will admit that Game 3 is lacking new and shiny faction options, but cutting off the arch-enemy of Chaos for the sake of adding the East would (in my opinion) be silly. The East is huge and Mortal Empires has already had enough issues from it's size, I doubt CA would want to make it worse or have a repeat situation in Game 3.

    If Cathay is added to Game 3, then chances are they'd have to get the Lustria treatment for the "Big Map" campaign: I can't wrap my stubborn as a Dwarf head around why Cathay fans would want that. Lustria was severely gimped for Mortal Empires, with a lot of it's mystery and grandeur being lost as a result. Now imagine, considering Cathay's size, how much splendor would have to be lost to fit them in.

    Then there's the "CA can easily implement assets from 3 kingdoms" argument, which I would like to encourage people to stop using. The main appeal of the TW: Warhammer series is how varied it is, if we encourage CA to start re-using assets for an entire faction it could severely cripple the series. Not only that, but I don't think re-using assets would fit the setting at all: it would look too "realistic" and bland compared to the fantastical nature of TW: WH.
    Draxynnic said:

    @SudoKnightlyNonsense Actually, I was referring to the internal politics of Tamurkhan's horde. Sayl kept the Dolgans back so he could claim that the Beastmen acted without orders, with the fact that none of his own troops got involved as evidence.

    Most likely, if the entire horde had committed, the tower would have gone down. But Tamurkhan was after bigger fish, and the Beastmen that did attack represented a big enough portion of Tamurkhan's forces that he was ready to execute Sayl over their loss.

    F.

    Ahh I see, that is a fair point: we are talking about a fragment of a major Chaos Horde. Cathay did do well enough, I'll give them that, but they didn't fulfill the "Cathay is best nation" notion I've seen thrown around. As I said before, I really wish we had numbers on that situation: it would probably give Cathay a lot more credit.

    The breach in the great Bastion, however, is a fine example of how Cathay is (for all it's grandeur) probably less prepared for enemies actually making it past the Great Bastion. Not to mention magic and constructs seem to be their answer to a lot of problems, which would logically lead to a "we have this, why do we need to improve" situation. That's the issue with comparing it to the Empire, Cathay is able to take on threats such as Dark Elf incursions, the Hobgoblins, Nippon, the Ogre Kingdoms and possibly the ever terrible, ever ferocious danger of the Gnoblars! :D

    But the Empire has been assailed from all sides, as well as from within, for how long now? In it's prime I'm sure Cathay could have even surpassed the Empire, but what I'm saying is that Cathay's own prosperity has probably harmed their military. The Empire continues to innovate it's gunpowder toys, meanwhile Cathay just launches spears out of a canon: effective but not as "advanced."

    Of course, it's all speculation in the end: but that's what makes it so fun. Cathay was always meant to be the "mysterious power in the East," I feel like the tidbits we did get from GW are mainly to keep the interest piqued, similar to how someone tells stories around a fireplace.
  • Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Registered Users Posts: 1,365
    edited March 2018
    @SudoKnightlyNonsense

    WARNING: LONG POST AHEAD

    The Far East's implementation in Game 3's "very big campaign" is a genuine concern. I don't know the ins and outs of programming, so I won't pretend to offer an answer.

    I also agree with the idea that Cathay is currently stagnant compared to the nations like the Empire, which is a common trope in Chinese storytelling and history. If Cathay does appear, I think rooting out corruption and cleaning up the administration would be big elements in its campaign. I also think they're behind in tech (after all, they use bronze cannons) compared to the Empire.

    However, I still disagree with the idea that Cathay is weaker than the Empire.

    First of all, Cathay doesn't seem to wage war any less than the rest of the world.

    Besides the events I mentioned earlier, (Nipponese invasions, attempted invasion of the Southlands, etc.), the Beastmen in Tamurkhan name Cathay as an ancient and bitter enemy of their kind (p.24-25). Considering how universal Beastmen are in the Warhammer world, it's likely that Cathay has Beastmen troubles as much as other parts of the world. And I highly doubt that Cathay could've cleared its lands of Beastmen, considering how well the Old Worlders and even Dark Elves have done trying to wipe them out.

    As for Cathay's performance during the Chaos invasion: When you talk about how the Chaos invasion penetrated into the heart of Cathay, keep in mind that Cathay doesn't have a large buffer state of fierce warriors on its northern border to give it any breathing room when a large Chaos invasion heads south. The Empire also has Dwarf and High Elf allies who can and often do help it out against Chaos. As far as we know, Cathay doesn't have allies like that.

    The relationship between Kislev, the Empire, and the Dwarfs is sort of like a later-World War 1 trench system. The first line (Kislev) is sparsely manned and constantly monitors the enemy. Most of the troops are back in the second line (the Empire), where they're safer from attack. When a large Chaos invasion begins, the second line rushes to reinforce the first line, hopefully getting there before the enemy can overrun it. Reserves further back (the Dwarfs) also move forward to bolster the first and second line troops. If the system works like it's supposed to, the enemy attack will be contained and eventually ground down until the attackers retreat.

    During the Great War Against Chaos, Kislev was badly damaged and down to its last city before the Empire arrived. The first Imperial army tried to stop the Chaos horde before it could penetrate into Kislev, but it and its Kislevite allies were wiped out. It wasn't until later that the Empire could muster another force large enough to oppose Chaos.

    During the final battle before the gates of Kislev, the Empire was aided by a large force of Dwarfs led by High King Alriksson and a coven of High Elf mages led by Teclis himself. Even then, the battle was extremely close, and the allies would've lost if it hadn't been for the arrival of the relieving army sent to Praag on the flank of the Chaos horde.

    The Empire, Kislev, Dwarfs, and High Elves fought off the invasion. But thousands of Imperials had died, and Kislev was nearly completely overrun, its armies shattered and its last city about to fall. If Kislev hadn't been in the invaders' way, it would've been Imperial cities that were razed and Imperial lands that were defiled before they were stopped.

    Looking at it this way, I think the Cathayans performed just as well during the Siege of the Great Bastion. Yes, Chaos penetrated into their heartland, but that's to be expected since Cathay doesn't have a Kislev of its own to absorb and slow down an invasion while it rallies its armied. The Great Bastion was in ruins after earthquakes, so Chaos got free access to Cathay lands just like they have with Kislev's wide open borders. Cathay also had no allies that we know of; no Dwarf High King and his army, no amazingly powerful High Elf mage and his associates. Cathay had to face this invasion alone.

    And make no mistake; it was a big invasion. "Truly colossal" according to the description. "Hordes of Chaos Warriors", War Mammoths, and even multiple Daemon Princes, not to mention tribesmen from "scores of tribes" who'd migrated leagues to take part in the invasion. It was a horde powerful enough to fight through a Cathayan army containing "legions of terracotta automatons", "whole regiments of one-horned Ogres", and multiple "bejewelled Gold Dragons".

    This invasion sounds very similar in scale to the largest Chaos attacks that hit the Old World prior to the End Times. Cathay had to face it alone and, just like the Old Worlders, beat Chaos back. It paid a terrible price and a lot of land was ravaged, but the same is true of the Great War Against Chaos.

    Granted, we don't have a map showing how far into Cathay Chaos actually got. Ultimately, we're left with a short blurb to draw details from. But to me, that sounds like solid proof that Cathay is powerful. They got hit with a Chaos invasion like that while their defenses were down, and they stood alone and did not fall (which makes them a great target for a Chaos invasion in Game 3; a mighty empire and old foe of Chaos who doesn't need help to stand against the encroaching darkness.)

    We have other lore snippets showing Cathay's power. The Hobgoblins are said in the DoW book to be a threat to Cathay's western border, so the Great Bastion is useless against them. They raid and plunder trade caravans and they're strong enough to engage and defeat whole Cathayan armies in pitched battle. They're a major power, and unlike the Old World, Cathay doesn't have any hardy Dwarfs to shield it from Greenskins. This threat keeps Cathay's soldiers busy, and the Tilean mercenaries supplied by the merchants in Shang-Yang are used to bolster Cathay's armies and "help defend [Cathay's] western frontier from the wrath of the Hobgobbla Khan."

    It's probable that Cathay faces other threats too: The Skaven are everywhere and everyone hates them, we don't know what their relations with Ind are like, and the snakemen of Khuresh have to get humans for their bloody rites somewhere.

    Switching over to Cathay's armies, sources say that, although normal Cathayan soldiers may or may not be up to par with Tilean infantry (if the claims by the Tileans that they fought off a "small" Cathayan army that outnumbered them 3:1 are true), they're still well-disciplined and come in massive numbers. Fitting, since after the Skaven, Cathay is probably the most populous realm in.the world. And that's not getting into the elites that Cathay can field.



    We also have the units previously mentioned, plus other stuff like magicsl fireworks, crossbowmen who probably use chu-ko-nus (if the Cathayans' rate of fire in Tamurkhan is anything to go by), monkey warriors, and other things that sound like they would give enemies a bad time.

    At this point, I just don't buy any argument that Cathay isn't strong. Based on what we know about their armies, their exploits, their interactions with other races, and the quality of the enemies they face, I don't see how they'd be militarily weaker than the Empire. Stronger? I don't know, but definitely not weaker.

    If you still disagree, then I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Ultimately, our debate boils down to what we think would make a better experience in Game 3. I want Cathay because I think it would make Game 3 more fun. You disagree. You want the Old World in Game 3 because you think it would make it more fun. I disagree. We both want a fun climax to the trilogy, but we have different views on what would make a good climax, and our lore posts aren't going to convince each other because they're ignoring that fundamental difference of opinion.

    Whatever happens in Game 3, though, I hope it's fun for both of us.

    (Also, sorry for the wall of text.)
  • SudoKnightlyNonsenseSudoKnightlyNonsense Registered Users Posts: 1,818
    edited March 2018

    @SudoKnightlyNonsense

    WARNING: LONG POST AHEAD

    The Far East's implementation in Game 3's "very big campaign" is a genuine concern. I don't know the ins and outs of programming, so I won't pretend to offer an answer.

    I also agree with the idea that Cathay is currently stagnant compared to the nations like the Empire, which is a common trope in Chinese storytelling and history. If Cathay does appear, I think rooting out corruption and cleaning up the administration would be big elements in its campaign. I also think they're behind in tech (after all, they use bronze cannons) compared to the Empire.

    However, I still disagree with the idea that Cathay is weaker than the Empire.

    First of all, Cathay doesn't seem to wage war any less than the rest of the world.

    Besides the events I mentioned earlier, (Nipponese invasions, attempted invasion of the Southlands, etc.), the Beastmen in Tamurkhan name Cathay as an ancient and bitter enemy of their kind (p.24-25). Considering how universal Beastmen are in the Warhammer world, it's likely that Cathay has Beastmen troubles as much as other parts of the world. And I highly doubt that Cathay could've cleared its lands of Beastmen, considering how well the Old Worlders and even Dark Elves have done trying to wipe them out.

    As for Cathay's performance during the Chaos invasion: When you talk about how the Chaos invasion penetrated into the heart of Cathay, keep in mind that Cathay doesn't have a large buffer state of fierce warriors on its northern border to give it any breathing room when a large Chaos invasion heads south. The Empire also has Dwarf and High Elf allies who can and often do help it out against Chaos. As far as we know, Cathay doesn't have allies like that.

    The relationship between Kislev, the Empire, and the Dwarfs is sort of like a later-World War 1 trench system. The first line (Kislev) is sparsely manned and constantly monitors the enemy. Most of the troops are back in the second line (the Empire), where they're safer from attack. When a large Chaos invasion begins, the second line rushes to reinforce the first line, hopefully getting there before the enemy can overrun it. Reserves further back (the Dwarfs) also move forward to bolster the first and second line troops. If the system works like it's supposed to, the enemy attack will be contained and eventually ground down until the attackers retreat.

    During the Great War Against Chaos, Kislev was badly damaged and down to its last city before the Empire arrived. The first Imperial army tried to stop the Chaos horde before it could penetrate into Kislev, but it and its Kislevite allies were wiped out. It wasn't until later that the Empire could muster another force large enough to oppose Chaos.

    During the final battle before the gates of Kislev, the Empire was aided by a large force of Dwarfs led by High King Alriksson and a coven of High Elf mages led by Teclis himself. Even then, the battle was extremely close, and the allies would've lost if it hadn't been for the arrival of the relieving army sent to Praag on the flank of the Chaos horde.

    The Empire, Kislev, Dwarfs, and High Elves fought off the invasion. But thousands of Imperials had died, and Kislev was nearly completely overrun, its armies shattered and its last city about to fall. If Kislev hadn't been in the invaders' way, it would've been Imperial cities that were razed and Imperial lands that were defiled before they were stopped.

    Looking at it this way, I think the Cathayans performed just as well during the Siege of the Great Bastion. Yes, Chaos penetrated into their heartland, but that's to be expected since Cathay doesn't have a Kislev of its own to absorb and slow down an invasion while it rallies its armied. The Great Bastion was in ruins after earthquakes, so Chaos got free access to Cathay lands just like they have with Kislev's wide open borders. Cathay also had no allies that we know of; no Dwarf High King and his army, no amazingly powerful High Elf mage and his associates. Cathay had to face this invasion alone.

    And make no mistake; it was a big invasion. "Truly colossal" according to the description. "Hordes of Chaos Warriors", War Mammoths, and even multiple Daemon Princes, not to mention tribesmen from "scores of tribes" who'd migrated leagues to take part in the invasion. It was a horde powerful enough to fight through a Cathayan army containing "legions of terracotta automatons", "whole regiments of one-horned Ogres", and multiple "bejewelled Gold Dragons".

    This invasion sounds very similar in scale to the largest Chaos attacks that hit the Old World prior to the End Times. Cathay had to face it alone and, just like the Old Worlders, beat Chaos back. It paid a terrible price and a lot of land was ravaged, but the same is true of the Great War Against Chaos.

    Granted, we don't have a map showing how far into Cathay Chaos actually got. Ultimately, we're left with a short blurb to draw details from. But to me, that sounds like solid proof that Cathay is powerful. They got hit with a Chaos invasion like that while their defenses were down, and they stood alone and did not fall (which makes them a great target for a Chaos invasion in Game 3; a mighty empire and old foe of Chaos who doesn't need help to stand against the encroaching darkness.)

    We have other lore snippets showing Cathay's power. The Hobgoblins are said in the DoW book to be a threat to Cathay's western border, so the Great Bastion is useless against them. They raid and plunder trade caravans and they're strong enough to engage and defeat whole Cathayan armies in pitched battle. They're a major power, and unlike the Old World, Cathay doesn't have any hardy Dwarfs to shield it from Greenskins. This threat keeps Cathay's soldiers busy, and the Tilean mercenaries supplied by the merchants in Shang-Yang are used to bolster Cathay's armies and "help defend [Cathay's] western frontier from the wrath of the Hobgobbla Khan."

    It's probable that Cathay faces other threats too: The Skaven are everywhere and everyone hates them, we don't know what their relations with Ind are like, and the snakemen of Khuresh have to get humans for their bloody rites somewhere.

    Switching over to Cathay's armies, sources say that, although normal Cathayan soldiers may or may not be up to par with Tilean infantry (if the claims by the Tileans that they fought off a "small" Cathayan army that outnumbered them 3:1 are true), they're still well-disciplined and come in massive numbers. Fitting, since after the Skaven, Cathay is probably the most populous realm in.the world. And that's not getting into the elites that Cathay can field.



    We also have the units previously mentioned, plus other stuff like magicsl fireworks, crossbowmen who probably use chu-ko-nus (if the Cathayans' rate of fire in Tamurkhan is anything to go by), monkey warriors, and other things that sound like they would give enemies a bad time.

    At this point, I just don't buy any argument that Cathay isn't strong. Based on what we know about their armies, their exploits, their interactions with other races, and the quality of the enemies they face, I don't see how they'd be militarily weaker than the Empire. Stronger? I don't know, but definitely not weaker.

    If you still disagree, then I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Ultimately, our debate boils down to what we think would make a better experience in Game 3. I want Cathay because I think it would make Game 3 more fun. You disagree. You want the Old World in Game 3 because you think it would make it more fun. I disagree. We both want a fun climax to the trilogy, but we have different views on what would make a good climax, and our lore posts aren't going to convince each other because they're ignoring that fundamental difference of opinion.

    Whatever happens in Game 3, though, I hope it's fun for both of us.

    (Also, sorry for the wall of text.)

    Those are all superb points, I can agree that I wouldn't mind if Cathay is in Game 3: but (as mentioned before) I think it would be a crying shame due to it ultimately having to be squished down. Plus, if CA can get the clear to make Cathay, why not push to get the other East factions cleared so that a 4th game could be made. It would make people who are interested in the region happy, it would draw interest from those who like Eastern mythology and it would bring in more profit for CA.

    Plus (as I said) we have six potential factions in the far East alone that CA could possibly create. I would personally love to see and play as CA's depiction of the Khuresh Snake-Men, I looked them up and thought find them far more fascinating than they should be considering the minuscule amount of lore on them. There's so much potential in the Far East of Warhammer, adding them in Game 3 would be a waste of that potential in my opinion.

    I do like the idea of having to fight off the internal corruption, it would well and truly justify fighting other Cathay factions: maybe we could even get an "Arkhan the Black" of Cathay, a Tzeentchian Cathay Councilman (try saying that ten times fast) who has access to some Tzeentch units. I just wish there were more Cathay LL options during the "modern" Warhammer era, considering what they did with Alberac I'm not sure CA hand-making LLs would make people happy.

    I'd argue that the Great Bastion is Cathay's "Kislev," though you are correct in that they don't really have any allies to speak of: I would argue that they probably get attacked (by Chaos) far less than the Empire. As for how much damage the Chaos host did, it's mentioned that they made it to "the heartland of Cathay." Though that's happened a few times with the Empire as well, so claiming that they are weaker than the Empire is indeed spotty at best.

    Edit: as for the Focus Empire vs Focus Cathay issue, I do agree that it is a matter of opinion. Though the Empire has a larger fanbase by far, I can understand that some people might want something new. Honestly I think the ideal solution was to have both, though we have to assume CA won't do that for the "story map."
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,034
    I think the flaw in the 'let's have the whole Far East' viewpoint is that most Far East factions make Cathay look well-developed. We have very little on Nippon, we don't know of anything for the Hobgoblin Khanate that could really make them more than a greenskin subfaction, and we have virtually nothing on Ind and Khuresh. Cathay at least offers a template to work off and a few mentions of what they have in the fluff - Ind or Khuresh would be making everything out of whole cloth, unless there's something hidden deep in a GW basement somewhere.

    It'd be awesome if a complete Far East did happen sometime, but I don't think it's practical to expect CA to create a fourth game where Cathay is the most well-known of the races, both in terms of recognition and in terms of available lore. It would be a lot of work to do for something that would be a significant gamble, and which many people would likely view as not being true Warhammer.

    One or two non-army-book races alongside the DoC, CD and OK to bring up the number of races (5 with a preorder bonus), I could see. An entire game of races that never had army books, though, is probably far too risky.
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,183
    Anyone else find it entertaining that seemingly every thread on this forum winds up one something totally different from what it was originally?

    Post pre-order suggestion for Three Kingdoms...
    TURNS INTO ANOTHER BATTLE FOR CATHAY AND THE FAR EAST!


    But to throw my hat in the ring, I do hope we get Cathay. Total War: Warhammer is a great opportunity for those factions with limited or old (like Norsca and Kieslev) rosters to be fully fleshed out.
    There are a couple of reasons why I personally want Cathay and group:
    1. They add a unique faction to Total War (not just a repeat of a different human faction).
    2. There are enough units to create a roster (if you do some good digging).
    3. There are a variety of factions in the area: Skaven (playable Clan Eschen?), Lizardmen, maybe Empire colonies, Dark Elves, Chaos, etc...
    4. There is enough lore to go off of (again, you have to do some digging, but CA seems to be good at that since they found Horned Ones).
    5. It would complete the Warhammer world and create a campaign that covered the entire globe. No more camping at the edge of the map. The options for exploration and conquest would be limitless. Yes, it would come with longer end-turn times, but that is something I would be willing to trade.

    I don't think Cathay is a MUST HAVE in Warhammer III, I just think it would be a great and flavorful addition. Will CA add it? We'll have to wait and see...

  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,888

    Red_Dox said:



    Why? Because, if you look at the map, the Warhammer East is massive and could easily be it's own game. Cathay/Ind/Nippon easily cover enough space to have a fantastic title of their own and it's a crying shame that more people don't seem to realize that, condensing Cathay into Game 3 would be a slap to whatever they replace and it would be a slap to Cathay itself.

    There, right there is were you stumble. If we take this map for campaign at game#3

    Cathay replaces NOBODY.
    Because literally you have nobody else better for the core race problem.

    You need (which means everybody now wants and expects after two games doing it so) 4 core races and probably one Preorder race. And then you probably need someone for DLC left.
    Chaos Dwarfs & Ogre Kingdoms are core. No way around it. Daemons are most likely the third. That's like two Destruction and one Neutral, while the other two games had always two Order and two Destruction.

    You have now Kislev left on the side, who can be squeezed in as fourth core race or be a perfect preorder match, similar to Norsca.

    And after that? Who else is there? Which place would Cathay occupy?
    • Hobgoblin Khanate has certainly not more lore then Cathay. We can't even place them satisfying on the map since they horde around and we still have not even current Goblins for a real little WAAAGH fleshed out, so hoping for that bunch of ragtag traitors is stretching really hard. Hobgoblins will be part of the Chaos Dwarf army roster and we migth see some rogue armies of them roaming around. That's probably it.
    • Gnoblar hordes? Pff, don't make me laugh. Part of Ogre Kingdoms. If CA is funny enough, mabye rogue armies again.
    • Dogs of War? Placing them ANYWHERE in the Dark Lands is really pushing some buttons when Old & new World are way superior choices for an easy implementation and not just a small outpost looking over a trade route. Ironicly there is a larger force of them stationed in Cathay ^^
    • Kurgan/Mung/Tong? Would it really be better to have another chaos driven barbarian tribe getting a bit fleshed out? Norsca was already the pinnacle of them regarding lore & having at least a armylist once in their lifetime. These leftover tribes have way less to go on.
    • Nagahszizzar Undead? Besides that there is literally all work on the units done already, the chances of that happening dropped immensly after the Black Pyramid scam.
    And if Cathay is "not fleshed out enough" anyway to be fit on the map, all these contenders for a game#3 campaign map spot are basicly beneath that.
    So if Cathay really does not "replace" someone more important and we have way less suitable candidates for the open fourth core slot, what are we even talking about?

    [sidenote: if you really want to spearhead The (horrible) Endtimes in how insignificant Cathay is, since a bunch of Chaos steamrolled them, the same bunch of godly intervened plothero Chaos steamrolled Kislev as a sidenote. They also steamrolled the Auric Bastion (u know, the Empires magical great Bastion to stop Chaos) and then the entire Empire. We could also say that the great mighty Lustria Lizards, like Tilea, Etsalia and Border Princes, got steamrolled by puny little Skaven. So what does that say over their "power" as a major player holding a good bit on the wolrdmap landmass? And for the record: TWW is not The (horrible) Endtimes scenario, so the whole story from there is irrelevant to begin with. Which kinda makes it even more redundant to use the horrible written Endtimes as an argument to "measure" Cathays power.]

    ------Red Dox


    If Cathay fans would rather ignore the classic fight between Chaos and the Old world in favor of the East then they really don't know diddly about Warhammer: especially since some of them seem to think Nagash is not important. The battles between the Empire and Chaos essentially form the core of the setting and yet that should be shelved for the East? We fought off the hordes of Chaos in Game 1 (remember, CA never intended for WoC in game 1 to be playable), now we should get a chance to burn down the Empire: it would bring the series to a full circle.

    Not to mention that the Lizardmen are being discredited for saving the world by re-directing the meteors of Morrslieb (which was blown up by the "puny" Skaven) into Lustria and literally sacrificing their homeland. They can move continents, destroy entire naval expeditions funded by a certain Emperor like it is nothing and they were able to move the asteroids from an entire moon at what is essentially the drop of a dime: and yet they're somehow "weak" because of that? They also buggered out in hopes of starting something better, the Lizardmen were able to tell that things were going to Chaos in a handbasket and had the means to do so: good on them I say.

    But calling the Skaven "puny?" The Skaven have a massive empire that literally spans across nearly every corner of the setting, the only place they can't burrow into (Ulthuan) is disconnected from the world. The Skaven have some of the most potent, and volatile, technological horrors in the setting and breed monsters could easily smash down gates. The Skaven's numbers are absurd, they are the closest thing to the Imperial Guard of 40k in that regard, as well as possessing arcane users, plagues and sneaky agents that one should not scoff at.

    But here's the thing, the Skaven don't fight fair: this has been shown many times and most notably in the Vermintide series they are shown as launching invasions from within the settlements of their enemies. They are also the reason Nagash was stopped during his first attempt to turn the world into an undead hellhole, if it wasn't for them Alcadizaar would have been swatted aside: assuming he found a way to escape at all. Like it or not, the Skaven are one of the most important factions in the setting: so calling them "puny" with a straight face (metaphorically speaking) is absurd at best.

    Here's the real kicker, I despise the Skaven and the Lizardmen. They are my two least favorite races in Warhammer Fantasy and the Skaven are my least favorite fantasy race period, yet I'm willing to acknowledge that they (and the Lizardmen) are factions that are actually important to the setting. Discrediting them for the sake of arguing for the inclusion of Thousand-Folded-Empire should be in Game 3 makes it seem like the one making that argument would rather have their OC inserted into the setting than give the lore any sort of respect.

    Also, Black Pyramid scam? Are you referring to the Tomb Kings dlc? Because last time I checked CA never scammed anyone with that, unless there was some sort of trick they used to magically spend their money on the dlc.

    Nitpicking certain words of people's point just to try and derail the conversation does not do any good, not once did I say Dogs of War should be in Game 3: I was simply mentioning that, if Albion and Amazons get added at all, it should be with them. DoW should definitely be a Game 2 DLC, having them appear in Game 3 would be silly.

    But not including the End Times for what now? People seem to be eager to point out how powerful Cathay supposedly was in those books and yet it's not okay to use them as a counter argument? If we're going by the "it's not Total War timeline" argument then that gives Cathay even less precedence to be included, since the End Times is an official GW product and they are the ones who ultimately give the "yay or nay" to CA's more creative decisions.

    Why? Simple, because the TW timeline is mainly 8th edition with bits of 7th thrown in: therefore the argument that anything released before 7th edition is not to be considered. If we go by that logic, then the 3rd edition armybook pieces on Cathay goes right out the window: which is funny because I've seen those used a lot. Just because someone doesn't like certain books does not mean those books are magically disqualified unless the material suits the person's agenda, it's as simple as that.

    "Who are we removing?" As mentioned in the 1st paragraph, adding Cathay would rob players of the chance to fight the main enemy of Chaos: Sigmar's Empire.
    The classic fight is CHAOS against the world. Yes, sicne GW has taken the point of view always mor eto the Old Word and to teh Empire as moist relatable race for customers to identify with, the narrative might been more on the Empire. But so what? Chaos fights everywhere. The end. Saying "that's soooo far east it would steal the Empires thunder" is just lazy argumentation. Especially if we are talking about a a videogmae where the combo mpa already has half the world in it. So Lizards are also Chaos worst enemy, is the Empire now stealing their Thunder because the Chaos wastes are geogrpahicly to far away?

    Skaven are basicly ****. You know it, I know it. The whole Endtime splot spouting up 15 trillion Skaven to first eradicate Tilea, Estalia & Borderprinces over night is ****. Then hitting the Empire hard because they probably had no losses at all so far, is stupid. Having enough forces to invade Lustria and trouble the Lizards would cost immense ressources. But hey, its the Endtimes, we have plenty. Of course the whole invasion force dies when Lustria is destroyed along with all other continents except the Old World. Who cares, in the following year the Skaven who took hundreds of years to claim a Kazak in the "old times" can now ERADICATE every Kazak in existence in the span of a year and have still trillions of Skaven left to besiege Karaz-a-Karak, the last hold. After they even won that, they fight against Chaos, lose and bow their head. They literally destroyed 3/4 of the worldmap through superior plothole cheese in terrible written stories, but that means nothing against IMBA Archaon who until then had done NOTHING except counting his fingers back at the northpol and waiting until Altdorf burns , half the Empires lays in ruin and the Auric bastion was long gone before rolling in and proclaim himself the conquerer king. Yeah, he must reallllly be powerful being becasue Endtimes plot said so. Poor trillion Skaven left have now to serve Chaos and become part of Archaons horde. Yes, PUNY is exactly the word I use for this **** tale. And yes, the context there & here is "Skaven in horrible Endtimes", since you choose to provide glorious Endtimes bogus to "prove" that Cathay is weak. It was also clearly marked as a Endtimes sidenote by my side, so spare me a lecture about Skaven power before that **** campaign. And since you follow your monoluge about how justified it is to use the Endtimes to prove that Cathay is ****, you have to accept that this also means Skaven are also puny little beings that can't do nothing right if the plot from the writer does not demand it. And also Lizardmen are little cowards who ratehr leave the planet then to fight on. Driven away by some puny rats makes it even more cringeworthy. Either you make an argument with the Endtimes, then you have to accept all the counterpoints that come with it even when you don't like how that undermines your own spun narrative up to that point. Or you leave that horrible written piece of garbage completly out of the discussion entirely, since it really is irrelevant for TWW which does not follow that timeline anyway. I would prefer to leave it out, which also was the point in just making that a sidenote and NOT the main question.

    Bkack Pyramid scam = no Nagash at all, while everyone was up in arms how glorius the DLC will be with Nagash endbattle and blablabla. Of course people have only to blame themselves. As mentioned previous to the DLC, "Hope is the first step to the road of disapointment" and I at least never really expected Nagash to pop up. But CA still did nothing with Black Pyramid besides using the flying Necron fortress for a go on N'kari. So N'kari scammed everyone. But yeah, of course I wanted to rant about some DLC policy blablabla. Dude, really?
    The point is & was, that chances of a Nagash Undead race (u know, in the race replacement question directed at your replacement quote) are now so low that it would be a miracle to drag that theme up again. Black pyramid was a Chaos scam = no big Nagash ressurection teaser for game#3 = chances of Nagash appearing in game#3 are under 10%.

    On we go with nitpicking then, because...what? I brought Dogs of War up since it is one of the last books left, while asking which one in your big world of generousity is replaced by Cathay. And I could plant like two spawnpoints for DoW on the Dark Lands map if I would grasp at straws. Now spinning a tale how I nitpick words from you with that and blabla hidden agenda bla, really? I asked a question, listed the suitable leftovers so you could add someone missed or explain a certain point of view of the named there. And what do you take that for? Jeez.


    Back to the point of the original question: "Replace someone" and "rob players from Chaos VS Empire fight" are two different kind of things. And since the Dark Lands campaign (which like Vortex has nothing to do with ME) should not even feature the Empire, there can't be stealing thunder from the allegedly obvious Empire VS Chaos fight. So, I am still wondering about who gets replaced in your mind, and why this specific race would be so much better then Cathay that it just should not be replaced?
    But after *that* reaction I doubt I will get a straight & interesting answer so you can also spare your effords in replying, since I will stop reading here at this point.

    -----Red Dox
  • SudoKnightlyNonsenseSudoKnightlyNonsense Registered Users Posts: 1,818
    edited March 2018
    talonn said:



    Its funny since from my experience, the anti-cathay posters were usually louder in expressing their hatred against cathay. They tend to turn normal healthy discussions with rage and insults (some even managed to get some threads closed).
    Makes me wonder if it's the "cathay" that they despise or something else ;)

    After some recent posts, I find myself pointing once more to the fact that certain Cathay fans are very aggressive and loud. A shame really, since other Cathay fans are very fun to have discussions with on the topic.

    As for the main topic at hand, I doubt it would be in CA's interests to do a gross-game promotional as it could result in some incredibly negative PR. It might work, but it's far too risky.
    Post edited by SudoKnightlyNonsense on
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 19,163
    Discuss the OP's topic and avoid including any derogatory remarks or characterizations about other members making their comments.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • BetoBotBetoBot Registered Users Posts: 247
    Bring me the ogre kingdoms...

    Then polish mortal empires..

    Revamp wh1 factions..

    Create unique subfactions for the current factions like the mod mousillon mixus.. that creates a different and unique VC army for the red duke....

    Then... and only then we can speak about Cathay or Indy or even Sparta for warhammer ;)

  • VladoffVladoff Registered Users Posts: 55
    @SudoKnightlyNonsense
    What you're saying about the aggressiveness of some of Katay's supporters can be applied to some opponents. Some people go very far in their reluctance to see this state in the game.

      Before the total war warhammer, I was unfamiliar with the FB (I gave preference to 40k). This is the reason why I do not understand the positions of some people who reject Katai only because he did not have any game figures before. I personally support Katya and that's why:
    1) Any strategy in our time must be diverse. In the case of game 3, Katai is not just "another region". This is an important and diverse battlefield. If you take the 3 main races that will definitely be in the game, then what can they give us in terms of geography? Wastelands, deserts and mountains. In comparison with the previous games this is rather weak. Katai can add forests, fields, more rivers and water regions (and perhaps the jungle). These fragments will be more familiar and attractive to the players' eyes. In the company ME 2.0 for those who love this climate (Empire, Bretonia, etc.) it will increase its ownership to the east, which will increase the variability of the game.

    2) As I said, Katai is a wonderful battlefield. Their territory will allow: to increase the number of scavens, beastmens and ordinary gnomes (+ 1 minor fraction of vampires because in the dark lands there are already 2 potential LL for VC). In addition, all kinds of elves will be added, and those of the Empire or Dogs of War.

    3) I live in one of the Kislev regions and I can say that some western cultural aspects reached us later. For example, such developed board games are very rare. But computer games are much easier to get. Thus, due to the implementation of some special races, it is possible to attract an audience that previously did not have access to something like that.These inductions can eventually give us many new LL for old races. (For example Lokhir Fellheart)
    For example, I have a friend who for a long time did not want to buy these games because of the price. I told him a lot about this game and once threw him links to the Wikipedia about Kislev. My friend and I laughed at this race (The way the Slavs in the West represent a lot of fun) and later it was interested in other aspects of this universe. Later, I told him about the theories of the possible appearance of Kislev in the game and he surrendered and bought 2 games.
    The same can work with the Chinese. At first people will be interested in Kata, and then, perhaps they will buy games. In addition, it can increase the interest in the board game (I was interested and I plan to buy something in the summer ... in the universe 40k), so that GW can win from this advertisement. I'm not saying that the SA should only orient to the east (After all, not only Easterners want Katai), but additional customers will not interfere.

    4. About the goal for the villains of the game 3 will not tell much. Kislev is the first line of defense of the empire. It would be very strange if, for victory in the war, it would be enough to throw only the first line. Kislev can be a tailor for Katai, who will help from the west towards the end of the game.

    5. Some believe that we should get the Empire as a goal, but:
      - What about being able to play for an empire? Should those who bought only 3 games get a playable empire or only those who bought 1 part? But beginners should then take 2 games for the opportunity to play for everyone? In both cases, this is not fair.
      - We have the Empire in 1 game and the second in ME. If the third game also focuses on the Old World With a pair of eastern territories, this means that we will pay twice for a part of this region. All those who want to destroy the Empire for demons will be able to do this later in ME 2.0.

    These are the most basic reasons in my opinion.
    Of course, there are many people who do not want to pay separately for Katai. I have a decision to make Katai a pre-order bonus. As a basis: Ogres, dwarves, demons and Kislev. Then the players who order the game immediately - will get Katay for free, and the one who will order later may not buy it.

    I also do not think that 4 different demon armies are a good idea. Then the whole 3 game will be concentrated on the destruction that can affect the sales. But even if the chaos is divided, this does not cancel out the possibility of Katai. Even on the contrary - the eastern lands will become narrower and they will need more space.

    Of course there are people who do not want either 4 gods, not Katya, not even Kislev, but I'm wondering - what do they generally expect from the third part? 3 races and the sea of ​​Lords. Then the map will become completely congested.

    Yes, I know, millions of errors. Excuse me. I'm trying to fix this but learning English when you're a fool is difficult.
  • SudoKnightlyNonsenseSudoKnightlyNonsense Registered Users Posts: 1,818
    Vladoff said:

    @SudoKnightlyNonsense

    Yes, I know, millions of errors. Excuse me. I'm trying to fix this but learning English when you're a fool is difficult.

    First of all, you're being far too hard on yourself: you make some very intelligent and well spoken points.

    I do agree that Cathay could be interesting if it's done right, though I can't really see it fitting in the map without causing the end-turn issue to become even worse. There's also the staggering amount of lore they'd need to add in, as well as making the faction "feel" like Warhammer. If they can add Cathay and make it work then it'll add a lot to the series, I do agree that Ogres, Chaos Dwarves, Kislev and Daemons of Chaos should come first.
  • VladoffVladoff Registered Users Posts: 55
    Yes, long moves are a problem. And personally, in my opinion this is the main disadvantage of the appearance of Catay in the game. The other shortcomings (in my opinion) are much inferior to advantages.
    It seems to me that there are some methods of optimization. Maybe I'm just saying nonsense, but pay attention to Crusader Kings 2. In terms of mechanics, it's very similar games. In Total war of course more graphics and animations, but on the global map, many aspects are very similar. CK2 has a lot of territories, sub territory, and factions can form such a ruler in each territory: 6 barons => landlord => his patron => their King => their Emperor. And everyone will have their own yard with servants, spouses, children. Each character has its own modifiers: age, features, characteristics, illnesses, hobbies and goals. For territories there can be modifiers and there can be many of them too. In addition, there may be various events that have many solutions and can affect the entire faction.
     All this I want to say that if you take into account the action on the global cutscene, then Crusader Kings 2 has a much more complex structure. And this despite the fact that this game takes place in real time. Why does Total war process moves for so long? After all, battles are taking place on a separate stage, which should not affect the global map. Graphic also has a small impact on the calculation of the results of the move.
     It seems to me that CA should think about the serious simplification of calculations. I'm even sure that this problem is more important than the content that they will fill the game 3. After all, even if we do not get Katai, we will have about 30% more factions in ME 2.0, which means the moves should be longer. And if they take care of this, then, in my opinion, we should not wait as a pre-order for novuby race for the previous (For example, Kislev for 1-2 games), or get as from Norska. (another reason why Cathay looks like a good option).
    The most recent and strange decision that can be offered is to enable players to disable Katai and the entire "non-canonical" east. How exactly? Do you remember the game Empire: Total War? India and America were placed on separate maps. So, at the start of ME2.0, in the settings you can simply disable Katai and all possible other exotic races.

    In any case, I'll buy the game. I just want to think that the developers will risk adding any Catay, and, if possible, Ind, Nipon, and Hobgoblins.
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