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Christianity/paganism

FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Posts: 2,268Registered Users
Any mechanics regarding the religions? Really wanted to see that affect things via Viking pagan armies ECT.
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  • WarlockeWarlocke Senior Member Posts: 2,534Registered Users
    Everyone is Christian. At the point where the game begins all of the vikings had either converted or were not far away from conversion, so there is no reason to have a religion mechanic in this title.
    ò_ó
  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Posts: 2,268Registered Users
    Warlocke said:

    Everyone is Christian. At the point where the game begins all of the vikings had either converted or were not far away from conversion, so there is no reason to have a religion mechanic in this title.

    What? There were CONSTANT raids from pagan scandanavians until 1066. Sure the kingdoms on Britain may be Christian, but if you have any idea about this periods history you know there were constant pagan incursions still. So why not a mechanic regarding that?
  • Amin NAmin N Junior Member Posts: 35Registered Users
    edited March 29
    Yea, CA sadly missed another opportunity here (There could have been some cool gameplay and mechanics if they had added pagans as well). According to CA and some ppl here everyone is Christian in this time period (878 AD) which is laughable, maybe ppl should start educating themselves on this period.
  • MattzoMattzo Member United KingdomPosts: 1,432Registered Users
    To quote Jack

    "Consider the situation at the starting date of 878 AD. Guthrum's converted to Christianity. Half of the Great Viking Army settled in Northumbria but there was still an Archbishop of York, and if legends are believed a Christian abbot had found the man who is their king at the start date. For the Vikings in Ireland and the Western Isles of Scotland there is debate about when they converted, as there is no certainty there. But within a century a king of the Isles was buried at the monastery of Iona.

    Viking conversion in this era is when, not if. 90% of the map is Christian and the other 10% is a question mark but we know become Christian soon enough. That's why it's not been made into a mechanic."


    And to quote someone else:

    "So all except a small Norse elite in some parts of the islands are Christian, and that small Norse elite basically don't care about religion in a political sense, there's no reason to add mechanics for it."
    "Everything in war is simple. But the simplest thing is difficult."
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Posts: 3,194Registered Users
    I don't think CA is literally saying everyone is Christian, they are just saying there is no religious debate or even chance that by the end of the period the people will not convert, so they have just not included a religion mechanic. There are still references to old religions though.
  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Posts: 3,077Registered Users
    edited March 29

    Warlocke said:

    Everyone is Christian. At the point where the game begins all of the vikings had either converted or were not far away from conversion, so there is no reason to have a religion mechanic in this title.

    What? There were CONSTANT raids from pagan scandanavians until 1066. Sure the kingdoms on Britain may be Christian, but if you have any idea about this periods history you know there were constant pagan incursions still. So why not a mechanic regarding that?
    There is. It's the off faction raiders. They are assumed to be non Christian.

    Honestly the religious mechanic can't really work here like in previous games. Because from everything I have read the Pagans were not practitioners evangelism. So there can't be a historically backed spread of paganism.

    As far as I know Vikings never conquered a city then put up churches of oden. Sure they may burn churches but they never put up any of their own.

    Vikings never had priests bishops or ministers that preached to the population. The best they had were story tellers and fortune tellers.


    So long story short, i think fighting for/against the heathens would be fun the religious mechanic would be very 1 sided. It would be doable but inevitably it would eventually just be a crippling moral drop for the pegans. Which could be fun or could be frustrating. So I understand dropping it.




    Here is how I would see it working.

    2 religions Christian & pegan. Everyone is Christian except for the sea kings.

    Christians build churches
    Pegans build religious nothing only destroy churches.

    Pegans have +5 religious influence in every city they own. They have no osmosis.

    Christians have churches that start at +5 and 3 osmosis and go up to +10 with +6 osmosis.

    The bigger religious buff will eventually run the other to zero.

    This would mean that a fully Danish country would slowly turn Christian if bordering two Christian cities. If these two cities built cathedrals their Pegan neighbors would basically be force converted and the only way to stop it would be to declare war and to burn them down.


    It would be imo an extreamly interesting but hard to balance mechanic. If CA want to hire me for any consultations I'm available. ;)
  • Nortrix87Nortrix87 Senior Member Posts: 991Registered Users
    Only Guthrum and 30 of his men is known to have converted to christianety at the start of this game.

    Peganism is alot more tolerant to other religions than the Abraham religions. They had no desire to force theyre faith on anyone and were used to belive in many gods. Christianety was yust another god. A god the vikings found strange in the start as they were used to warlike gods.

    For example around 900AD-1200AD were christianety slowly replaced peganism it was common among those who had converted to christianety to also have a thorshammer beside the cross on theyre neck. Yust in case this new god were false :D

    The Vikings in Normandy converted to christianety but they ceept theyre worrior mentalety. They found the worrior angel michael to be theyre main diety or what you call it on english. Also they continued to use ravens on theyre banners (eyes of Odin) long after they converted. As in the invasion of england.

    "We men are the monsters now. The time of heroes is dead, Wiglaf - the Christ God has killed it, leaving humankind with nothing but weeping martyrs, fear, and shame."

    - Beowulf
  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Posts: 3,077Registered Users
    @Nortrix87


    That's what I said. I am willing to venture to guess by 900 ad virtually every Norseman and Dane in England believed in God.

    They might not have worshiped him but they had no problem believing in the God of these people that seemed to give power to their enemies.


    My personal opinion here but I think that's why Catholicism adopted patron saints. We have patron saint of sailors of mothers of travelers. All these were used to help convert believers paganism who couldn't wrap their mind around a single God that controlled everything.
  • Nortrix87Nortrix87 Senior Member Posts: 991Registered Users
    edited March 29
    CnConrad said:

    @Nortrix87


    That's what I said. I am willing to venture to guess by 900 ad virtually every Norseman and Dane in England believed in God.

    They might not have worshiped him but they had no problem believing in the God of these people that seemed to give power to their enemies.


    My personal opinion here but I think that's why Catholicism adopted patron saints. We have patron saint of sailors of mothers of travelers. All these were used to help convert believers paganism who couldn't wrap their mind around a single God that controlled everything.

    Wel i dont agree it happened fast, but beeing the ruling minorety they would slowly integrate with intermarrige. Or in the case of rape/taken salves as conquest brings, many would be born rised by the christian british mother.
    As many Vikings often settled with wife and famely brought from scandinavia, would also slow down the proces.

    St. Brice's Day massacre was the killing of Danes in the Kingdom of England on 13 November 1002, ordered by King Æthelred when the Danelaw was back in Anglosaxon controll. Showing that Vikings heritage was hunted wich supports the thory that there was slow integration.

    A royal charter of 1004 explaining the need to rebuild St Frideswide's Church (now Christ Church Cathedral):

    "For it is fully agreed that to all dwelling in this country it will be well known that, since a decree was sent out by me with the counsel of my leading men and magnates, to the effect that all the Danes who had sprung up in this island, sprouting like cockle amongst the wheat, were to be destroyed by a most just extermination, and thus this decree was to be put into effect even as far as death, those Danes who dwelt in the afore-mentioned town, striving to escape death, entered this sanctuary of Christ, having broken by force the doors and bolts, and resolved to make refuge and defence for themselves therein against the people of the town and the suburbs; but when all the people in pursuit strove, forced by necessity, to drive them out, and could not, they set fire to the planks and burnt, as it seems, this church with its ornaments and its books. Afterwards, with God's aid, it was renewed by me."

    The skeletons of 34 to 38 young men, all aged 16 to 25, were found during an excavation at St John's College, Oxford in 2008. Chemical analysis carried out in 2012 by Oxford University researchers suggests that the remains are Viking; older scars on the bones provide evidence that they were professional warriors. It is thought that they were stabbed repeatedly and then brutally slaughtered. Charring on the bones is consistent with historical records of the church burning

    Im not saying the mayorety of Vikings in Britain was pegan by 1000AD yust that the intergration was slow.

    About Catholicism and Patron saints yes i agree. Christianety were smart to ceep popular pegan traditions like Jul/Christmas. The celebration of the sun turn yust changed to celebrate the birth of christ. Odin became santa claus. Also at summer were large bonfires were lit to celebrate the sun at its strongest got a christian name. "Saint Hans"..
    "We men are the monsters now. The time of heroes is dead, Wiglaf - the Christ God has killed it, leaving humankind with nothing but weeping martyrs, fear, and shame."

    - Beowulf
  • KregenKregen Member Posts: 483Registered Users
    edited March 29
    CnConrad said:

    @Nortrix87


    That's what I said. I am willing to venture to guess by 900 ad virtually every Norseman and Dane in England believed in God.

    They might not have worshiped him but they had no problem believing in the God of these people that seemed to give power to their enemies.


    My personal opinion here but I think that's why Catholicism adopted patron saints. We have patron saint of sailors of mothers of travelers. All these were used to help convert believers paganism who couldn't wrap their mind around a single God that controlled everything.

    I think your personal opinion could very well be right, after all Yule became Christmas and Odin became Father Christmas, the spring festival selebrating the return of fertility and new life became Easter along with many more originally pagan rights and festivals that were adapted to fit the Christian template. This was as you say the method used to ease the conversion of multi theistic pagans into mono theistic Christians.

    This coupled with the fact that the leaders of pagan Norse communities discovered the advantages of Christianity. Access to the organizational and clerical skills of the church and greater acceptance on the larger European Christian political stage.
  • norseaxenorseaxe Posts: 388Registered Users
    Was a little disappointed that there wasn't going to be paganism in this game awhile back but jack explained why it wasn't in . I actually think sea kings should be the only pagan faction in the game but that's just me.
  • HectorSalamancaHectorSalamanca Junior Member Posts: 55Registered Users
    Just because religion wasn't as important politically during this period should not mean the devs should just scrap it, in my opinion.

    Surely, a religion mechanic as in Attila and AoC would not work, but why not include it in some minor form? It was present during the period, and not in a trivial way.

    It's cosmetics. They are not necessary, and having too much of them can be bad, but abandoning them all together is not advisable. Strip away everything that was not a major historical factor which defined the period and you end up with something bland like Rome 2 at release.

    That said, maybe the devs have good technical reasons for not including religion.
  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Posts: 3,077Registered Users

    Just because religion wasn't as important politically during this period should not mean the devs should just scrap it, in my opinion.

    Surely, a religion mechanic as in Attila and AoC would not work, but why not include it in some minor form? It was present during the period, and not in a trivial way.

    It's cosmetics. They are not necessary, and having too much of them can be bad, but abandoning them all together is not advisable. Strip away everything that was not a major historical factor which defined the period and you end up with something bland like Rome 2 at release.

    That said, maybe the devs have good technical reasons for not including religion.

    Religion IS included. You build churches, holding the corpses of saints is important.

    All they took out was the ability to spread Christianity because the gemenral population was mostly Christian.

    Couple that with the fact that Danes didn't spread paganism and allowed churches to be built in their lands and Jack's argument was that religious warfare was not really a good part of gameplay.

    I can understand it. I think I could make it work, but I understand it.
  • MattzoMattzo Member United KingdomPosts: 1,432Registered Users
    It is present in a minor form. For example some events will reference religion. There's just no proper mechanic simulating how much of your population is x religion.
    "Everything in war is simple. But the simplest thing is difficult."
  • HectorSalamancaHectorSalamanca Junior Member Posts: 55Registered Users
    Mattzo said:

    It is present in a minor form. For example some events will reference religion. There's just no proper mechanic simulating how much of your population is x religion.

    Fair enough. Perhaps I should wait until I've actually played the game :) I was just going off my impression of what the game will look like.
  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Posts: 2,268Registered Users
    CnConrad said:

    Warlocke said:

    Everyone is Christian. At the point where the game begins all of the vikings had either converted or were not far away from conversion, so there is no reason to have a religion mechanic in this title.

    What? There were CONSTANT raids from pagan scandanavians until 1066. Sure the kingdoms on Britain may be Christian, but if you have any idea about this periods history you know there were constant pagan incursions still. So why not a mechanic regarding that?
    There is. It's the off faction raiders. They are assumed to be non Christian.

    Honestly the religious mechanic can't really work here like in previous games. Because from everything I have read the Pagans were not practitioners evangelism. So there can't be a historically backed spread of paganism.

    As far as I know Vikings never conquered a city then put up churches of oden. Sure they may burn churches but they never put up any of their own.

    Vikings never had priests bishops or ministers that preached to the population. The best they had were story tellers and fortune tellers.


    So long story short, i think fighting for/against the heathens would be fun the religious mechanic would be very 1 sided. It would be doable but inevitably it would eventually just be a crippling moral drop for the pegans. Which could be fun or could be frustrating. So I understand dropping it.




    Here is how I would see it working.

    2 religions Christian & pegan. Everyone is Christian except for the sea kings.

    Christians build churches
    Pegans build religious nothing only destroy churches.

    Pegans have +5 religious influence in every city they own. They have no osmosis.

    Christians have churches that start at +5 and 3 osmosis and go up to +10 with +6 osmosis.

    The bigger religious buff will eventually run the other to zero.

    This would mean that a fully Danish country would slowly turn Christian if bordering two Christian cities. If these two cities built cathedrals their Pegan neighbors would basically be force converted and the only way to stop it would be to declare war and to burn them down.


    It would be imo an extreamly interesting but hard to balance mechanic. If CA want to hire me for any consultations I'm available. ;)
    Fair enough. HIRE CONRAD!!
  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Posts: 2,268Registered Users
    I'm on mobile so I'm not doing text walls like you guys, I wish I could. Ill keep it simple. Idk why yr quoting jack so much, just cuz CA says "everyone was Christian" doesn't mean that its true. If you believe that its laughable. There was so much pagan influence still at this time (mainly from Scandinavia) I could post a whole thread on the sources. But that's beside the point. I accept WHY its not in the game, but DONT try to get in a **** match with me regarding Saxon period history, especially about DERP EVERYONE'S CHRISTIAN BY 878 DERP cuz you obviously have zero idea what yr talking about, no offense. But I accept the reason there was none, I just wanted a discussion though not to be jumped on. So be ready to be owned if you want to continue. Or have ur source material ready that will prove ur point that everyone was christuan. And ill immediately disprove it in my response.
  • Jack_Lusted_CAJack_Lusted_CA Creative Assembly Brighton, UKPosts: 1,343Registered Users, CA Staff Mods, CA Staff
    I wish people would stop trotting out the line that I said everyone is Christian. I said the nations on the map were 90% Christian, implying their leaders etc., and the other 10% we don't know at the start date due to lack of records for them but we do know they eventually became Christian.

    Now some of the people who converted did so to help seal treaties like Guthrum, other leader likely converted to take advantage of the social and political power that the structure of the church in their lands gave them. I'm making no claim about how fervently Christian anyone is, or that they only believed in Christianity and nothing else. Everything we know about Anglo- Saxon Christianity says there were large area of older myths that were still believed and stories told of alongside their Christianity. Same for Ireland with its mythology that sat alongside their Christian beliefs. Saying that because there were some Germanic myths still believed by the Anglo-Saxons made some of them Pagan would be wrong, those beliefs were alongside the Christian ones.

    So, most leaders are Christian, most people are Christian even where those beliefs sat alongside older Pagan ones. There would undoubtedly have been people arriving from Scandinavia, either as part of the invasions or migrating later who would have brought Pagan beliefs with them. However we have no records of active attempts from this era of people being converted to Paganism. What we know of is people with those pagan beliefs living alongside ones with Christian beliefs, and the former eventually converting.

    Hence no religion mechanic in the game as forceful conversion of people to the point of eradicating other beliefs isn't the story of this era. There are Churches are other religious buildings, there's mention of religious beliefs in flavour text. Some soldiers in battle wear Christian crosses round their necks, others Thor's hammer. That is the approach we've taken.

    And because there was no active attempt to convert people to Paganism in this era, it's why we've not included it in the game. The way it worked out in history was Pagan invaders/settlers converting to the beliefs of the lands they arrived in over time, whether that was mingling with their own or full force adoption of the Christian beliefs etc.
    Game Director - Thrones of Britannia

    Disclaimer: Any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Posts: 2,268Registered Users

    I wish people would stop trotting out the line that I said everyone is Christian. I said the nations on the map were 90% Christian, implying their leaders etc., and the other 10% we don't know at the start date due to lack of records for them but we do know they eventually became Christian.

    Now some of the people who converted did so to help seal treaties like Guthrum, other leader likely converted to take advantage of the social and political power that the structure of the church in their lands gave them. I'm making no claim about how fervently Christian anyone is, or that they only believed in Christianity and nothing else. Everything we know about Anglo- Saxon Christianity says there were large area of older myths that were still believed and stories told of alongside their Christianity. Same for Ireland with its mythology that sat alongside their Christian beliefs. Saying that because there were some Germanic myths still believed by the Anglo-Saxons made some of them Pagan would be wrong, those beliefs were alongside the Christian ones.

    So, most leaders are Christian, most people are Christian even where those beliefs sat alongside older Pagan ones. There would undoubtedly have been people arriving from Scandinavia, either as part of the invasions or migrating later who would have brought Pagan beliefs with them. However we have no records of active attempts from this era of people being converted to Paganism. What we know of is people with those pagan beliefs living alongside ones with Christian beliefs, and the former eventually converting.

    Hence no religion mechanic in the game as forceful conversion of people to the point of eradicating other beliefs isn't the story of this era. There are Churches are other religious buildings, there's mention of religious beliefs in flavour text. Some soldiers in battle wear Christian crosses round their necks, others Thor's hammer. That is the approach we've taken.

    And because there was no active attempt to convert people to Paganism in this era, it's why we've not included it in the game. The way it worked out in history was Pagan invaders/settlers converting to the beliefs of the lands they arrived in over time, whether that was mingling with their own or full force adoption of the Christian beliefs etc.

    There you go, that makes sense. That's what I was originally wanting to hear with the thread, not people spewing out misquoted from you trying to argue something I didn't even try to argue
  • WarlockeWarlocke Senior Member Posts: 2,534Registered Users
    edited March 30
    I was talking about the game. Every faction in the game Christian. I wasn’t referencing historical Britain in that sentence.
    Post edited by Warlocke on
    ò_ó
  • norseaxenorseaxe Posts: 388Registered Users
    Any pics of soldiers wearing crosses and thor hammers like jack said. Would like to see them I haven't seen any on the videos I think that would be pretty cool to have them on soldiers.
  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Posts: 2,268Registered Users
    norseaxe said:

    Any pics of soldiers wearing crosses and thor hammers like jack said. Would like to see them I haven't seen any on the videos I think that would be pretty cool to have them on soldiers.

    Id love that
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 16,043Registered Users


    TBH I'd find it tiring to handle the mechanic again, it's a bit refreshing to see a TW game that's not converting provinces to a percentage for public order's sake. Guess they're wanting the game to be more about armies killing other armies.

    There'd also just be two religions, a binary version of this mechanic isn't really fun or interesting, even Shogun2 had three religions and it was only something you deal with if you were near the Ikko Ikki or the rare Christian clan.

    I'd want something like dilemma events that are just "fluff" in content and referring to saints or Odin, but I wouldn't want a mechanic like we've had before.

    I'm more curious as to what they might have in place of such a mechanic though, as conversion of regions was a common part of Total War's campaign experience.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • wingren013wingren013 Posts: 866Registered Users
    edited April 4

    I'm on mobile so I'm not doing text walls like you guys, I wish I could. Ill keep it simple. Idk why yr quoting jack so much, just cuz CA says "everyone was Christian" doesn't mean that its true. If you believe that its laughable. There was so much pagan influence still at this time (mainly from Scandinavia) I could post a whole thread on the sources. But that's beside the point. I accept WHY its not in the game, but DONT try to get in a **** match with me regarding Saxon period history, especially about DERP EVERYONE'S CHRISTIAN BY 878 DERP cuz you obviously have zero idea what yr talking about, no offense. But I accept the reason there was none, I just wanted a discussion though not to be jumped on. So be ready to be owned if you want to continue. Or have ur source material ready that will prove ur point that everyone was christuan. And ill immediately disprove it in my response.

    I would be confident in saying that the population of Britain was at least 90% Nicene Christian. The pagan norsemen would have been drops in the bucket and there was never any effort by then to convert the locals or to reconvert those who converted to Christianity.
  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Posts: 2,268Registered Users

    I'm on mobile so I'm not doing text walls like you guys, I wish I could. Ill keep it simple. Idk why yr quoting jack so much, just cuz CA says "everyone was Christian" doesn't mean that its true. If you believe that its laughable. There was so much pagan influence still at this time (mainly from Scandinavia) I could post a whole thread on the sources. But that's beside the point. I accept WHY its not in the game, but DONT try to get in a **** match with me regarding Saxon period history, especially about DERP EVERYONE'S CHRISTIAN BY 878 DERP cuz you obviously have zero idea what yr talking about, no offense. But I accept the reason there was none, I just wanted a discussion though not to be jumped on. So be ready to be owned if you want to continue. Or have ur source material ready that will prove ur point that everyone was christuan. And ill immediately disprove it in my response.

    I would be confident in saying that the population of Britain was at least 90% Nicene Christian. The pagan norsemen would have been drops in the bucket and there was never any effort by then to convert the locals or to reconvert those who converted to Christianity.
    How many times do we have to run in circles? I'm not talking about in Britain. There were constant raids from pagans up to late 11th century. Doesn't matter if they "tried to convert" anyone. Total war is a sandbox, and I was wondering if there would be a mechanic to play as a sandbox. If I want to play as a pagan Norse faction, that's fine. But it doesn't matter, I was just wondering.
  • wingren013wingren013 Posts: 866Registered Users

    I'm on mobile so I'm not doing text walls like you guys, I wish I could. Ill keep it simple. Idk why yr quoting jack so much, just cuz CA says "everyone was Christian" doesn't mean that its true. If you believe that its laughable. There was so much pagan influence still at this time (mainly from Scandinavia) I could post a whole thread on the sources. But that's beside the point. I accept WHY its not in the game, but DONT try to get in a **** match with me regarding Saxon period history, especially about DERP EVERYONE'S CHRISTIAN BY 878 DERP cuz you obviously have zero idea what yr talking about, no offense. But I accept the reason there was none, I just wanted a discussion though not to be jumped on. So be ready to be owned if you want to continue. Or have ur source material ready that will prove ur point that everyone was christuan. And ill immediately disprove it in my response.

    I would be confident in saying that the population of Britain was at least 90% Nicene Christian. The pagan norsemen would have been drops in the bucket and there was never any effort by then to convert the locals or to reconvert those who converted to Christianity.
    How many times do we have to run in circles? I'm not talking about in Britain. There were constant raids from pagans up to late 11th century. Doesn't matter if they "tried to convert" anyone. Total war is a sandbox, and I was wondering if there would be a mechanic to play as a sandbox. If I want to play as a pagan Norse faction, that's fine. But it doesn't matter, I was just wondering.
    The only thing on the map is Britain...

    Also Total War is a HISTORICAL sandbox. While its nit very historically accurate, it at least tries depict the reality of its setting.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 16,043Registered Users
    I wonder if it's possible to mod religion, that's probably more important than whether the game features it as vanilla.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • Nortrix87Nortrix87 Senior Member Posts: 991Registered Users
    The wast mayorety of the Danelaw armies is for shure pegans at the start of this game, a small minorety of the East Anglians would probably be Christian due to Guthrum and some of his men. Oposite with the civilians however for obvius reasons. With the sea kings like the Sudereyar there was wery litle christian influence on the pegans. And i would be bothered if i play them with a christian feel to it. Hope not :/
    "We men are the monsters now. The time of heroes is dead, Wiglaf - the Christ God has killed it, leaving humankind with nothing but weeping martyrs, fear, and shame."

    - Beowulf
  • FranzSaxonFranzSaxon Posts: 2,268Registered Users
    daelin4 said:

    I wonder if it's possible to mod religion, that's probably more important than whether the game features it as vanilla.

    Yes!!!! This
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