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Balancing Point&Click damage abilities/spells

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  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,553
    edited April 2018

    Fate of Bjuna is ridiculous.

    And extreme expensive in WOM.
    I would say Lore of Life are ridiculous too.
    Actually in my experience from FoB suffer only factions without healing, with extreme elite troops and against lords with huge WOM potential. IMHO any change to FOB should be tied with changes to healing spells(except VC, cause VC already balanced by subpar stats).
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,056
    eumaies said:

    Unfortunately healing is also ridiculous. As are certain wind spells.

    Or, to put it differently, some spells are useful and worth bringing and protecting a Mage for.

    Let's not pretend most spells have all that much counterplay anyway.

    The most basic counterplay comes from the range of a spell, which exposes the Mage to danger and makes targeting harder. If you want to give counterplay to Bjuna, decrease its range.

    Wind spells require aiming and can miss. FoB/Accusation/Liber Bubonicus etc. always hit. Also, read the first few posts, I'm for making healing spells harder to use as well.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,674

    eumaies said:

    Unfortunately healing is also ridiculous. As are certain wind spells.

    Or, to put it differently, some spells are useful and worth bringing and protecting a Mage for.

    Let's not pretend most spells have all that much counterplay anyway.

    The most basic counterplay comes from the range of a spell, which exposes the Mage to danger and makes targeting harder. If you want to give counterplay to Bjuna, decrease its range.

    Wind spells require aiming and can miss. FoB/Accusation/Liber Bubonicus etc. always hit. Also, read the first few posts, I'm for making healing spells harder to use as well.
    Aiming a wind spell is not my idea of strategy. That does nothing to distinguish it from Bjuna except to reward people who are good at clicking faster.

    Making a decision about whether to dodge a slow trigger wind spell is at least some kind of strategic thinking.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,056
    By that logic you might as well be for all battles being AI-only control because then you don't need to click on anything and it's down to just your army composition. Most wind spells, at least the powerful ones, have quite a bit of windup and casting time, so you can always see them coming. FoB always hits.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,674
    edited April 2018

    By that logic you might as well be for all battles being AI-only control because then you don't need to click on anything and it's down to just your army composition. Most wind spells, at least the powerful ones, have quite a bit of windup and casting time, so you can always see them coming. FoB always hits.

    That is in fact a meaningful difference. See we all agree now. Except for the strong wind spells where that's not true.
  • LighningstrikesLighningstrikes Registered Users Posts: 154

    Fate of Bjuna is ridiculous.

    yeah..this spell is too strong..
  • AvadonAvadon Registered Users Posts: 1,543

    Fate of Bjuna is ridiculous.

    yeah..this spell is too strong..
    You want a repeat of the Lore of Death nerfs eh...

    What a joke...

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,674
    Avadon said:

    Fate of Bjuna is ridiculous.

    yeah..this spell is too strong..
    You want a repeat of the Lore of Death nerfs eh...

    What a joke...
    Agreed the bad guys need some strong spells like this to be competitive. If it gets nerfed that's fine but better buff something else. And since it's called lore of death it would have to be a spell similarly good at reliably causing damage, just like life spells are reliably good at healing.

    So aside from tweaking range to increase counterplay I don't think they have great options.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,056
    Factions should not rely on imbalanced cheese to be competitive, also it makes the already powerful Arkhan even more powerful, so I strongly disagree that "the bad guys" need it. FoB right now has no counterplay. If it's put on one of your units, it's crippled and out of the battle.

  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Registered Users Posts: 1,799

    Factions should not rely on imbalanced cheese to be competitive, also it makes the already powerful Arkhan even more powerful, so I strongly disagree that "the bad guys" need it. FoB right now has no counterplay. If it's put on one of your units, it's crippled and out of the battle.

    I kinda agree with idea that factions shouldn't rely on specifc strong spells from common lore. Plus common lores, I think, shouldn't be that strong, but more accessible and cost-effective for factions they belong to.
    Don't know about Arkhan. I mean it would be nice to see how he would perform after some changes to TK healing and constucts animations/overall performance.
    About counter-play...well there are kinda counters in magic resistance/ward save stuff/healing, focusing source of FoB, or using magic debuff (WoM recharge/cooldown) abilities and if FoB belongs to slow infantry target - knock down/running away from area of FoB effect before it would start to work. Overall, I'm not sure if FoB is actually that cost-effective, since there are not many targets for 20 WoM cost rare spell which could compensate its price.
    Mostly 800-1000+ gold units for non-healing factions and 1000-1400+ for healing one with high model count (elite infantry/cav). Most factions which have such expensive units, either have healing or could counter with same FoB.
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  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,660

    Factions should not rely on imbalanced cheese to be competitive, also it makes the already powerful Arkhan even more powerful, so I strongly disagree that "the bad guys" need it. FoB right now has no counterplay. If it's put on one of your units, it's crippled and out of the battle.

    There are 2 forms of counterplay.

    1. Give the unit massive magic resistance.
    2. Heal that unit at the same time with healing magic, of which there are 3 lores than can.

    I don't think it's enough counterplay, but it does exist.
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,056
    Kayosiv said:

    Factions should not rely on imbalanced cheese to be competitive, also it makes the already powerful Arkhan even more powerful, so I strongly disagree that "the bad guys" need it. FoB right now has no counterplay. If it's put on one of your units, it's crippled and out of the battle.

    There are 2 forms of counterplay.

    1. Give the unit massive magic resistance.
    2. Heal that unit at the same time with healing magic, of which there are 3 lores than can.

    I don't think it's enough counterplay, but it does exist.
    That's not "counterplay", that's damage control.

  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Registered Users Posts: 2,868
    As I already said, let the damage scale to how close the caster is to the target. Risk-reward
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