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Vigor Changes Proposition

KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
edited April 2018 in Balancing Discussions
Currently in The new Vigor System is quite not right

FIrst of we can all agree,vigor Favours Factions and units with high melee defense too much and this is causing underlying balance issues....gs,empire vs elven faction mostly...
Game 1 : exhausted MD - 30% and MA -15%
Game 2 : exhuasted MD -10% and MA - 30%

and percentage based armor reduction could also be changed to - X values

As well s the in introduction of ap only damage reduction,which again favors some faction while ignoring others

i think it should be like
exhausted : MD -25% and Ma-15%
Armor -30 plain
Remove ap damage reduction totally at all stages of fatigue or make regular damage also get reduced

Balance Is A Lie

Post edited by KhorneFlakes on

Comments

  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    Really eveybody is fine with current vigor system compared to wh1..??

    Balance Is A Lie

  • ystyst Posts: 6,069Registered Users
    It affects everyone so i suppose they dont mind it lol.

    Or

    They just have no idea how to fix it, i personnaly dont know lol. Like i said affects everything so its a big thing
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  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    Is not that i am fine with it: is that is the kind of change that it is very likely to break (by breaking I mean making the consequences of the change completely unpredictable) balance. Is the kind of change that CA would have to hotfix several times.


    Regarding the battlepace, a enormous majority of people were complaining about battles being too quick in WH1, so I don't think that is going to be changed.


    It simply easier to buff those offensive units a little instead of changing the whole system.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Posts: 2,369Registered Users
    Reworking the whole balance again, especially after the changes that were explicitly made to slow down battles which was requested by a lot of people (I'm not a fan btw, but I can live with it), would be beyond stupid.

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  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Posts: 432Registered Users
    I suppose it's also partly responsible for the slower pace, which it seems people like more ... the problem is that vigor seems to be more a passive trait than a dynamic concern, no one plays with it. Having more ways to replenish vigor would be interesting and diversify more the game, maybe a faster recovery when idle so resting can be something players actually decide to do.
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    Pocman said:

    Is not that i am fine with it: is that is the kind of change that it is very likely to break (by breaking I mean making the consequences of the change completely unpredictable) balance. Is the kind of change that CA would have to hotfix several times.


    Regarding the battlepace, a enormous majority of people were complaining about battles being too quick in WH1, so I don't think that is going to be changed.


    It simply easier to buff those offensive units a little instead of changing the whole system.

    Reworking the whole balance again, especially after the changes that were explicitly made to slow down battles which was requested by a lot of people (I'm not a fan btw, but I can live with it), would be beyond stupid.

    ffs

    do you guys have a grasp at mechanics or not..?? or is purposeful deraiing i removed that post it was just a guessing or specifically directed at CA

    but for your pleasure Vigpor changes hardly affect game pace,they effect it very very very late game with certain units
    so not much
    Game 2 is slower because of ATTACk speed + more health got it...??

    Now concentrate on what values vigor should change and NO it will not break the game a simple mod is enough which can be done in 2 days with some testing

    Balance Is A Lie

  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Posts: 2,369Registered Users
    Reduce MD more than MA when tired = speed up fights.
    Remove AP dmg reduction when tired = speed up fights.

    And yes, the balance would be quite different with these changes and would require rebalancing a ton of units from scratch.

    If neither the balance nor game pace would change, why are you suggesting these changes in the first place?

    Team Skaven

    Team O&G

  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    edited April 2018

    Reduce MD more than MA when tired = speed up fights.
    Remove AP dmg reduction when tired = speed up fights.

    And yes, the balance would be quite different with these changes and would require rebalancing a ton of units from scratch.

    If neither the balance nor game pace would change, why are you suggesting these changes in the first place?

    BUt they are not the only factor, Try Reading again is said a minor part of it,it will not affect game pace much
    since its mostly When exhausted

    No you won't require to rebalance every unit,wth why are you saying that since we already have seen changes like this in patch notes.....??? take a look at previous patch notes again
    these changes will be universal,so affect all units = net neutral change,only affects internal faction balance when units are exhausted
    and like i said helps certain faction empire,gs(currently up) vs elves(currently op with high md units )

    it favours units with MD more that's the issue and thus affecting certain factions which surprisingly are op right now compared to say gs or empire

    Personal comment removed.
    Post edited by dge1 on

    Balance Is A Lie

  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Posts: 2,369Registered Users
    Let's make all units take double damage from missiles, since it affects all units it's a neutral change. VC will love it in particular.

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  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users

    Let's make all units take double damage from missiles, since it affects all units it's a neutral change. VC will love it in particular.

    haha,way to derail man....learn a thing called context, and maybe re read some previous patch notes didn't affect units much then hmmm..?? nowhere i said its a net neutral changed but neutral for faction with balanced md/ma units
    hence why should vigor favor faction with high md more..??

    Balance Is A Lie

  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Posts: 2,369Registered Users
    Yeah it will nerf high MD units and buff high MA ones, among other things, which would change a lot of standings. Unit balance is not in a bad shape atm, quite possibly the best we've ever had. It's way easier to just buff underperforming units or nerf overperforming ones.

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  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users

    Yeah it will nerf high MD units and buff high MA ones, among other things, which would change a lot of standings. Unit balance is not in a bad shape atm, quite possibly the best we've ever had. It's way easier to just buff underperforming units or nerf overperforming ones.

    but buffing those said units creates imbalances otherwise and giving itv just makes it worse since they will be immune to speed,cb...etc which is fine.......so yeah giving same same md and ma penalty is way better

    and its not just faction balance its internal balance issue as well

    Balance Is A Lie

  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,783Registered Users
    Logically all types of damage should be reduced from exaustion, not only AP (maybe AP shouldn't get reduced, but turn into non-AP though). But that's only if to follow logic about exaustion.

    I don't know. It's too hard for me to predict results and that affects all factions. So. Don't know.
    But I do think that offensive factions (Chaos, GS, Vamps) got into a bad spot because of this change too, especially their most offensive units. In general, I'm fine with current exaustion change, as long as units which need buffs (because of this change or in general) would receive them.
    Most annoying thing, imo is that skirmish cav units don't get exausted that much from shooting and runnig away, while chasing units do+I assume, get staggered with missiles a bit. Yeah, there are facotrs like terrain and human mistakes, but still - not very nice.
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  • turrehundturrehund Posts: 188Registered Users
    edited April 2018
    I mean, from a logical point of view it makes perfect sense that landing powerful and efficient blows becomes much harder when tired compared to simply blocking them. Following that logic it also makes sense that offensive units like Black Ark Corsairs or White Lions suffer worse from exhaustion than spearmen who's only job is to hide behind a shield and hold the line.
  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    edited April 2018

    Pocman said:

    Is not that i am fine with it: is that is the kind of change that it is very likely to break (by breaking I mean making the consequences of the change completely unpredictable) balance. Is the kind of change that CA would have to hotfix several times.


    Regarding the battlepace, a enormous majority of people were complaining about battles being too quick in WH1, so I don't think that is going to be changed.


    It simply easier to buff those offensive units a little instead of changing the whole system.

    Reworking the whole balance again, especially after the changes that were explicitly made to slow down battles which was requested by a lot of people (I'm not a fan btw, but I can live with it), would be beyond stupid.

    ffs

    do you guys have a grasp at mechanics or not..?? or is purposeful deraiing i removed that post it was just a guessing or specifically directed at CA

    but for your pleasure Vigpor changes hardly affect game pace,they effect it very very very late game with certain units
    so not much
    Game 2 is slower because of ATTACk speed + more health got it...??

    Now concentrate on what values vigor should change and NO it will not break the game a simple mod is enough which can be done in 2 days with some testing
    Hahahahaha,


    So, you expressly mention game pace as one of the reasons to propose a vigour change. I make a completely neutral remark about how that pace change was done deliberately because most people asked for it.

    Comment removed.
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    edited April 2018
    Pocman said:

    Pocman said:

    Is not that i am fine with it: is that is the kind of change that it is very likely to break (by breaking I mean making the consequences of the change completely unpredictable) balance. Is the kind of change that CA would have to hotfix several times.


    Regarding the battlepace, a enormous majority of people were complaining about battles being too quick in WH1, so I don't think that is going to be changed.


    It simply easier to buff those offensive units a little instead of changing the whole system.

    Reworking the whole balance again, especially after the changes that were explicitly made to slow down battles which was requested by a lot of people (I'm not a fan btw, but I can live with it), would be beyond stupid.

    ffs

    do you guys have a grasp at mechanics or not..?? or is purposeful deraiing i removed that post it was just a guessing or specifically directed at CA

    but for your pleasure Vigpor changes hardly affect game pace,they effect it very very very late game with certain units
    so not much
    Game 2 is slower because of ATTACk speed + more health got it...??

    Now concentrate on what values vigor should change and NO it will not break the game a simple mod is enough which can be done in 2 days with some testing
    Hahahahaha,


    So, you expressly mention game pace as one of the reasons to propose a vigour change. I make a completely neutral remark about how that pace change was done deliberately because most people asked for it.

    Comment removed.
    i didn't even edit my post,haha look at it again
    Post edited by dge1 on

    Balance Is A Lie

  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    edited April 2018

    Pocman said:

    Pocman said:

    Is not that i am fine with it: is that is the kind of change that it is very likely to break (by breaking I mean making the consequences of the change completely unpredictable) balance. Is the kind of change that CA would have to hotfix several times.


    Regarding the battlepace, a enormous majority of people were complaining about battles being too quick in WH1, so I don't think that is going to be changed.


    It simply easier to buff those offensive units a little instead of changing the whole system.

    Reworking the whole balance again, especially after the changes that were explicitly made to slow down battles which was requested by a lot of people (I'm not a fan btw, but I can live with it), would be beyond stupid.

    ffs

    do you guys have a grasp at mechanics or not..?? or is purposeful deraiing i removed that post it was just a guessing or specifically directed at CA

    but for your pleasure Vigpor changes hardly affect game pace,they effect it very very very late game with certain units
    so not much
    Game 2 is slower because of ATTACk speed + more health got it...??

    Now concentrate on what values vigor should change and NO it will not break the game a simple mod is enough which can be done in 2 days with some testing
    Hahahahaha,


    So, you expressly mention game pace as one of the reasons to propose a vigour change. I make a completely neutral remark about how that pace change was done deliberately because most people asked for it. You decide for whatever the reason to ninjaedit your post and then insult me, contradicting yourself in the process.

    You are beyond pathetic.
    i didn't even edit my post,haha look at it again
    imageKF

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  • BillyRuffianBillyRuffian Moderator UKPosts: 36,068Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    That's enough of the personal dogfighting. Either discuss the topic civilly or expect warnings and points.

    "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts - for support rather than illumination." (Andrew Lang)

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    Forum Terms and Conditions: - https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest

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  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users

    That's enough of the personal dogfighting. Either discuss the topic civilly or expect warnings and points.

    Close the thread.



    Balance Is A Lie

  • KhorneFlakesKhorneFlakes Posts: 3,373Registered Users
    @Pocman I clearly mentioned the post your replied to

    and i clearly say in that post i removed that part because of derail and that post is UNEDITED

    stop deceiving and backtracking,loec's tricks dont work anymore

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    Balance Is A Lie

  • BillyRuffianBillyRuffian Moderator UKPosts: 36,068Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    Closed at OP's request.

    "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts - for support rather than illumination." (Andrew Lang)

    |Takeda| Yokota Takatoshi

    Forum Terms and Conditions: - https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest

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This discussion has been closed.