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Lack of historicity of West Seaxe's vassals

MrJadeMrJade Senior MemberLansing, MIPosts: 7,162Registered Users
edited May 2018 in General Discussion
I was intrigued by Cent and Suth Seaxe, so I did some research into West Seaxe's vassals. Unfortunately, while the Kingdoms of Sussex (Suth Seaxe) and Kent (Cent) did exist, neither existed 878 AD. The sources cited in the page are not the only source used, but it is the easiest to cite and to get a general overview of.

Kingdoms that did not exist
Cent
Kent was long dominated by both Mercia and Wessex. In 851 Æthelberht became king of Kent, third son of Æthelwulf, one of the older brothers of Alfred. He would ascend to the throne of Wessex in 860, fully merging Kent with Wessex. 878 AD and Alfred's reign, Kent was a province of Wessex, albeit and important one.

Suth Seaxe
Sussex was also long dominated by the kingdoms of Mercia and Wessex. From about 770-825 AD, the Kings of Mercia nominate the kings of Sussex, until 825 when Ecgberht, exiled Mercian, now ruler of Wessex defeats the united Mercian forces. Æthelwulf, father of Alfred, becomes the King of Sussex while his father rules the now dominate Kingdom of Wessex. Eventually Æthelwulf ascends to the throne and Sussex becomes a province of Wessex.

Defena
The Kingdom of Dumonia ruled over both the later Kingdom of Cornish and also the area around Devon. It was allied to the Mercian King Offa in 825 and joined Offa in the battle against Ecgberht, and was subsequently defeated. By 875 Dumonia ceased to exist and the area known in game and Defena was fully incorporated in England.

Kingdoms that did exist as vassals of West Seaxe
Gwent
Gwent was a fully vassalized kingdom of the Anglo-Saxons from about 630 AD on. They were originally a Mercian vassal, but after the Mercian overthrow of 825 AD, they became a vassal of Wessex. In 1090 the Normans invade and effectively stop Welsh independence and fully integrate Gwent, but it wasn't until 1282 that all of Wales was fully integrated.

Cerneu
Cornish continued to exist after the fall of Dumonia as a vassalized Welsh kingdom from 825 until the Norman invasion in 1066 in which it was made a province rather than allowed to exist as a semi-independent state.

Complicated vassalage states
Gliwissig
Glywyssing is a bit of an interesting case, as it was itself a vassal of Gwent, but at times rebelled against Gwent, invaded Gwent, and tried to establish itself. Apparently the instability of both Glywyssing and Gwent annoyed Edward so much that in 881 he invaded and tried to take them fully over, but it didn't take, however at that point Glywyssing became a full vassal of Wessex rather than Gwent.
In 930 the Kingdoms of Gwent and Glywyssing merged into a single Kingdom called Morgannwg or Glamorgan. In 950 the last High King of Wales died, and it all went downhill from there.
Thrones of Britannia: 69/100
Warhammer II: 73/100
Warhammer: 79/100
Attila: 70/100 [Age of Charlemagne: 72/100]
Rome II: 49/100
Shogun II: 93/100 [Fall of the Samurai: 95/100]
Napoleon: 58/100
Empire: 53/100
Medieval II: 90/100 [Kingdoms: 90/100]
Rome I: 88/100
Medieval I: 92/100
Shogun I: 84/100
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Comments

  • Jack_Lusted_CAJack_Lusted_CA Creative Assembly Brighton, UKPosts: 1,346Registered Users, CA Staff Mods, CA Staff
    This is something that was talked about when we revealed the campaign map. Yes, many of the territories we've put as vassals for West Seaxe were fully part of the kingdom. We broke the kingdom up as its already a lot of land to have at the start and having Suth Seaxe, Cent, and Defena as vassals helps reduce the amount of provinces you have to manage by 4 at the start.
    Game Director - Thrones of Britannia

    Disclaimer: Any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIPosts: 7,162Registered Users

    This is something that was talked about when we revealed the campaign map.

    I didn't read too much about the campaign map reveal, so I missed the announcement. At the end of the day however, I guess you got me to look into the real historical map of Britannia at this era of history.

    West Seaxe was certainly in a strong state at this time.
    Thrones of Britannia: 69/100
    Warhammer II: 73/100
    Warhammer: 79/100
    Attila: 70/100 [Age of Charlemagne: 72/100]
    Rome II: 49/100
    Shogun II: 93/100 [Fall of the Samurai: 95/100]
    Napoleon: 58/100
    Empire: 53/100
    Medieval II: 90/100 [Kingdoms: 90/100]
    Rome I: 88/100
    Medieval I: 92/100
    Shogun I: 84/100
  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Posts: 3,130Registered Users

    This is something that was talked about when we revealed the campaign map. Yes, many of the territories we've put as vassals for West Seaxe were fully part of the kingdom. We broke the kingdom up as its already a lot of land to have at the start and having Suth Seaxe, Cent, and Defena as vassals helps reduce the amount of provinces you have to manage by 4 at the start.

    Is there any reason that as Wessex I couldn't Confederate my vassels.


    A great role playing solution would be deplomatic marriages. Where vassalization is unavailable until you had a child of Kentish or Mercian blood.


    It really is a issue in total war games to have a vassel join you in war and randomly speckle your lands with towns they rush to first.

    I hate betraying my vassels but ultimately they hurt more than they help mid to late game. After someone is your vassel for long enough they cease to exist as their own country.

    From a historical standpoint that is absolutely what happened in Britain.
  • MattzoMattzo Member United KingdomPosts: 1,433Registered Users
    They appear to have wanted to keep annexation a special mechanic for the Gaels.

    Personally think it's a very questionable choice. Might go add it to my list of constructive criticisms in another thread.
    "Everything in war is simple. But the simplest thing is difficult."
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIPosts: 7,162Registered Users
    CnConrad said:

    Is there any reason that as Wessex I couldn't Confederate my vassels.

    It would be nice to see that, for sure, since it is historical.
    CnConrad said:

    From a historical standpoint that is absolutely what happened in Britain.

    It did, as noted above, but it more happened that the current King of Kent or Sussex then became the King of Wessex, merging the Thrones. I do that all the time in CKII, merging crowns.
    Thrones of Britannia: 69/100
    Warhammer II: 73/100
    Warhammer: 79/100
    Attila: 70/100 [Age of Charlemagne: 72/100]
    Rome II: 49/100
    Shogun II: 93/100 [Fall of the Samurai: 95/100]
    Napoleon: 58/100
    Empire: 53/100
    Medieval II: 90/100 [Kingdoms: 90/100]
    Rome I: 88/100
    Medieval I: 92/100
    Shogun I: 84/100
  • ImperaturImperatur Member Posts: 106Registered Users
    Having the ability for West Seaxe to Confederate their vassals in some manner seems like such a no-brainer I was shocked that it was omitted. I really fail to understand the thinking of CA on many occasions.
  • ShermanSherman Member Posts: 879Registered Users

    This is something that was talked about when we revealed the campaign map. Yes, many of the territories we've put as vassals for West Seaxe were fully part of the kingdom. We broke the kingdom up as its already a lot of land to have at the start and having Suth Seaxe, Cent, and Defena as vassals helps reduce the amount of provinces you have to manage by 4 at the start.

    Yes I remember that, infact I was answering that too. And I somewhat agree. However what was a little "unexpected" for me it's the lack of a way to integrate these vassals. At some point there is no reason why a player not should want annex them diplomatically. Please, even if with a long and full of events way, add something to unify the south of the country.

    It's strange that at some point I own all the island directly but not my starting provinces.
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Posts: 3,843Registered Users
    Yeah we need to be able to confederate vassals. Currently order 66'ing Sussex in My Wessex game, I suppose it makes it so you do have a bit more to worry about but it isn't great for RP.
  • ImperaturImperatur Member Posts: 106Registered Users
    I had assumed that after the first Kingdom event when becoming Anglo-Saxons there would be some instant unification but if not then surely after England is formed. CA never fails to let stuff like this slip into every TW it seems.
  • ShermanSherman Member Posts: 879Registered Users
    Imperatur said:

    I had assumed that after the first Kingdom event when becoming Anglo-Saxons there would be some instant unification but if not then surely after England is formed. CA never fails to let stuff like this slip into every TW it seems.

    same tought
  • BMNOBLE981BMNOBLE981 Senior Member Posts: 1,208Registered Users
    Its Carthage all over again from Rome 2, they needed to reduce the amount of territory they start with so they divided up your territory to vassal states.
    Dr Zoidberg "We fight over matters of honour, and whether or not abbreviations count in scrabble. THEY DON'T"

    “My fault. What I said in the guild was incorrect: rather than ‘death is certain if you follow me’, I actually meant ‘come along and I shall slaughter the lot of you’.”

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  • KregenKregen Member Posts: 484Registered Users
    I've not looked properly yet but ther is a mod on steam that makes it possible. If I read the cover note right it said all options for every faction or some thing like that. I have no access to my pc atm, but will be looking closer at it later.
  • EfixEfix Posts: 268Registered Users
    Kregen said:

    I've not looked properly yet but ther is a mod on steam that makes it possible. If I read the cover note right it said all options for every faction or some thing like that. I have no access to my pc atm, but will be looking closer at it later.

    I play with the MOD it's very useful to be able to confederate. I will probably do a MOD myself that remove the fake vassals and give the land back to Wessex to see how the AI do but I completely understand why Jack had to split some territories.
  • KregenKregen Member Posts: 484Registered Users
    Efix said:

    Kregen said:

    I've not looked properly yet but ther is a mod on steam that makes it possible. If I read the cover note right it said all options for every faction or some thing like that. I have no access to my pc atm, but will be looking closer at it later.

    I play with the MOD it's very useful to be able to confederate. I will probably do a MOD myself that remove the fake vassals and give the land back to Wessex to see how the AI do but I completely understand why Jack had to split some territories.
    Thanks I installed it last night, looks promising.
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