Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Are wood elves gonna be obsolete now?

glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,162Registered Users
I just dont see what the point of wood elves will be once high elves get their own deepwood scouts (shadow warriors) and waywatchers (sisters of avelorn), as well as access to dryads and treekin, all while outperforming wood elves in every other area.
«1

Comments

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,773Registered Users
    edited May 2018
    Sisters will not be ww.

    Let's see when we get the patch notes.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Posts: 2,984Registered Users
    We don't know the costs of units yet.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,162Registered Users
    Even if they cost a lot, its still going allow high elves to do everything wood elves can do, in most cases better.
  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    Yeah, i also thought this. Better monsters, better cavalry, better infantry, archers at least as good, better lords. A slight advantage in terms of mobility doesn't seem enough to counter all this.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,773Registered Users
    Of course not. You won't do it better with fewer units. Cost and stats are all that matters. A cost inefficient unit (for the faction) does not add power.

    If all added units are cost efficient it will above all add build diversity. That is worth as lot, and has been something HE has been lacking.

    Sisters will not have stalk though, and nets require wom, so we will be better snipers, and better kiters vs armor. It does improve he kite options though, but not vs armor.

    It will unlock more Archer play, and new synergies. I hope they don't become op, I don't like to play tier 0 stuff.
  • PrayPray Posts: 1,349Registered Users
    multiplayer you just Nerf the Waywatcher , if Wood elf dead now it's your fault .
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,882Registered Users
    A more correct question would be are all other races than DEs and HEs obsolete now?

    The answer is we dont know yet but it might be so.
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • VistahmVistahm Posts: 242Registered Users

    I just dont see what the point of wood elves will be once high elves get their own deepwood scouts (shadow warriors) and waywatchers (sisters of avelorn), as well as access to dryads and treekin, all while outperforming wood elves in every other area.

    sisters are pretty much starfire shafts but with the combat stats of shades, and in fact their price must be around 900-950.

    they are not similar to waywatchers at all.

    btw amazing who the same people that 2 or 3 monts ago said that he dont need buff, because they were going to get their missing units, now they are trying tomake those same units completly useless.


    I guess the world is full of cheeky persons

    Nothing great have been accomplished in the world without a great passion.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,162Registered Users
    edited May 2018
    Vistahm said:

    I just dont see what the point of wood elves will be once high elves get their own deepwood scouts (shadow warriors) and waywatchers (sisters of avelorn), as well as access to dryads and treekin, all while outperforming wood elves in every other area.

    sisters are pretty much starfire shafts but with the combat stats of shades, and in fact their price must be around 900-950.

    they are not similar to waywatchers at all.

    btw amazing who the same people that 2 or 3 monts ago said that he dont need buff, because they were going to get their missing units, now they are trying tomake those same units completly useless.


    I guess the world is full of cheeky persons

    I never thought the high elves needed buffs because they were already a strong faction. If they struggle a bit dealing with armored monsters thats fine, everybody needs a weakess. They never had it as bad as greenskins and vampires do.

    Not against the new units, but nearly all the factions are now going to need a bit of love, some a lot, in order to catch up.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,773Registered Users
    Nobody. Knows. That. Yet.
  • VistahmVistahm Posts: 242Registered Users
    Coming for a lizardmen player (that has relentlessly oppose any nerfs to his stupidly OP faction) this comment is pretty hypocritical.

    Also you fail to realize that those weakness are the result of not having their complete roster

    Nothing great have been accomplished in the world without a great passion.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Posts: 2,984Registered Users

    I just dont see what the point of wood elves will be once high elves get their own deepwood scouts (shadow warriors) and waywatchers (sisters of avelorn), as well as access to dryads and treekin, all while outperforming wood elves in every other area.

    Sisters of averlorn and waywatchers do not serve the same purpose.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,162Registered Users
    edited May 2018
    Vistahm said:

    Coming for a lizardmen player (that has relentlessly oppose any nerfs to his stupidly OP faction) this comment is pretty hypocritical.

    Also you fail to realize that those weakness are the result of not having their complete roster

    Lizardmen have weaknesses, and theyre going to become more obvious when the high elves lose theirs. And im not against nerfs to lizardmen, i just want to see buffs in other places to compensate. Like more viable non dino builds for example.

    Ive just seen a lot of people acting like high elves are a weak faction that needs help, when theyre not a weak faction at all. They have a bad matchup agai nst lizardmen, so what? Everybody has bad matchups, including LM. Try playing them against a skilled dwarf or beastmen player. Other factions need that help a lot more.
  • VistahmVistahm Posts: 242Registered Users

    Vistahm said:

    Coming for a lizardmen player (that has relentlessly oppose any nerfs to his stupidly OP faction) this comment is pretty hypocritical.

    Also you fail to realize that those weakness are the result of not having their complete roster

    Lizardmen have weaknesses, and theyre going to become more obvious when the high elves lose theirs. And im not against nerfs to lizardmen, i just want to see buffs in other places to compensate. Like more viable non dino builds for example.

    Ive just seen a lot of people acting like high elves are a weak faction that needs help, when theyre not a weak faction at all. They have a bad matchup agai nst lizardmen, so what? Everybody has bad matchups, including LM. Try playing them against a skilled dwarf or beastmen player. Other factions need that help a lot more. Even lizardmen; if they had a little more variety in their roster nerfing the dinos and skink chiefs wouldnt hurt them so bad.
    Men are you aware that right now, the skink skirmisher spam is probably the most broken build ?

    Men talk with @yst he can show you everything you need.

    And for god sake there is no freaking way beastmen are good vs lizardmenn.

    In fact lizardmen are one of the best counters of beastmen.

    Fighting lizardmen as beastmen is a real pain in the ass
    Nothing great have been accomplished in the world without a great passion.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,162Registered Users
    edited May 2018
    Vistahm said:

    Vistahm said:

    Coming for a lizardmen player (that has relentlessly oppose any nerfs to his stupidly OP faction) this comment is pretty hypocritical.

    Also you fail to realize that those weakness are the result of not having their complete roster

    Lizardmen have weaknesses, and theyre going to become more obvious when the high elves lose theirs. And im not against nerfs to lizardmen, i just want to see buffs in other places to compensate. Like more viable non dino builds for example.

    Ive just seen a lot of people acting like high elves are a weak faction that needs help, when theyre not a weak faction at all. They have a bad matchup agai nst lizardmen, so what? Everybody has bad matchups, including LM. Try playing them against a skilled dwarf or beastmen player. Other factions need that help a lot more. Even lizardmen; if they had a little more variety in their roster nerfing the dinos and skink chiefs wouldnt hurt them so bad.
    Men are you aware that right now, the skink skirmisher spam is probably the most broken build ?

    Men talk with @yst he can show you everything you need.

    And for god sake there is no freaking way beastmen are good vs lizardmenn.

    In fact lizardmen are one of the best counters of beastmen.

    Fighting lizardmen as beastmen is a real pain in the ass
    Yes thats true if i you bring skirmisher spam, which i dont. You dont have to bring cheese builds just because the faction is capable of doing it. What i meant to say is if you bring a balanced build, the kind allowed in most tournaments, against beastmen, beastmen are very hard to beat. Hard enough against a good player that i always bring beastmen against LM using the builds ive lost to, and still havent lost a game doing that.

    There have been many kinds of cheese in the game from most of the factions. In WH1 i didnt see this much complaint about dwarf gyro spam or empire steam tank spam. I dont know how CA can deal with it, because its built into the way those units work. Limits of some kind are the only option i guess.
  • lucibuislucibuis Posts: 2,495Registered Users
    edited May 2018
    no sure in mp, but in sp for sure... they gave 3 of the most iconic WE units to he with we having already the smaller roster. This game has become trash in every way, you don't do a fantasy game with lopsided factions like this, all fantasy games strive to have races with equal content and attention.

    I'm so glad I did not but TWW2... I saved myself so much money...
  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Posts: 1,930Registered Users
    No one is 'obsolete' in SP
    Faith, Steel and Gunpowder Bows
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,162Registered Users
    I guess high elves still wont have anything to match waywatchers, thats good. Its just that even now high elves outmatch wood elves in almost everything, and its only going to get worse. Dont get me wrong, i like that theyre getting their full roster, i just hope that wood elves get reworked in such a way that they can stand out from and counter high elves somehow.
  • harngersteinharngerstein Posts: 807Registered Users
    I dont see why people think that the sisters are going to be comparable to wawatchers. Think of them more as Silver Bullets without stalk (and broken LoS). They lack what makes the way watchers so potent, the ability to fire while retreating. Honestly all you need to do is send dogs/ light cav after them, they cant engage while retreating. Their melee stats are reasonable but not much more so than waywatchers.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,165Registered Users
    edited May 2018
    Sisters dont move and shoot, no vanguard no 360, also just 180m without stalk.

    Apart from godlike melee stats, their firepower r just similar to starfire at best. Due to the fact over the course of the battle, the repositioning etc. may even be lower than starfire lol if a lot of pressure r put of them.

    Not easy to empty that quiver without constant firing. Waywatch will empty it almost every battle lol

    Well they also dont have dancers equilvalent or poison horse archers, hawks , vangaurd shock cav.
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
    Unit stats compare courtesy of Seal62 https://total-war-unit-compare.herokuapp.com/
  • PocmanPocman Posts: 2,382Registered Users
    yst said:

    Sisters dont move and shoot, no vanguard no 360, also just 180m without stalk.

    Apart from godlike melee stats, their firepower r just similar to starfire at best. Due to the fact over the course of the battle, the repositioning etc. may even be lower than starfire lol if a lot of pressure r put of them.

    Not easy to empty that quiver without constant firing. Waywatch will empty it almost every battle lol

    Well they also dont have dancers equilvalent or poison horse archers, hawks , vangaurd shock cav.

    Starfire have 18 D10PS (60 models). Waywatchers have 32... with HP on and only 45 models. That's equivalent to 24 with 60 models. Sister's have 25, all the time. The ap ratio is still unknown to me, but it seems like sisters will hit like **** trucks.



  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,773Registered Users
    I guess today we'll at least start to see pre-release build stats and unit performances in the yt tournament. Then we can start having opinions, though also there values will have many change before it goes live.
  • Busa1227Busa1227 Posts: 3,118Registered Users
    The last time I read this forum, dryads and Treekin were "useless", now High Elves will be able to destroy worls because they have access to them :smile:.

  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,260Registered Users
    Busa1227 said:

    The last time I read this forum, dryads and Treekin were "useless", now High Elves will be able to destroy worls because they have access to them :smile:.

    Was that in mid 2017?
  • Busa1227Busa1227 Posts: 3,118Registered Users
    edited May 2018

    Busa1227 said:

    The last time I read this forum, dryads and Treekin were "useless", now High Elves will be able to destroy worls because they have access to them :smile:.

    Was that in mid 2017?
    It was in the current game build, but yes, maybe in mid 2017 :p

  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,260Registered Users
    yst said:

    Sisters dont move and shoot, no vanguard no 360, also just 180m without stalk.

    Apart from godlike melee stats, their firepower r just similar to starfire at best. Due to the fact over the course of the battle, the repositioning etc. may even be lower than starfire lol if a lot of pressure r put of them.

    Not easy to empty that quiver without constant firing. Waywatch will empty it almost every battle lol

    Well they also dont have dancers equilvalent or poison horse archers, hawks , vangaurd shock cav.

    Starfire have 19 DPS with 60 models. Waywatchers have 29 DPS with 45 models, Sisters have 25 DPS with 60 models.

    Sisters have by far the best melee stats, and with 60 models, they will be hard to shut down unless you use at least mid level units and they will have the best damage per volley.

    It really depends on the price.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,881Registered Users

    yst said:

    Sisters dont move and shoot, no vanguard no 360, also just 180m without stalk.

    Apart from godlike melee stats, their firepower r just similar to starfire at best. Due to the fact over the course of the battle, the repositioning etc. may even be lower than starfire lol if a lot of pressure r put of them.

    Not easy to empty that quiver without constant firing. Waywatch will empty it almost every battle lol

    Well they also dont have dancers equilvalent or poison horse archers, hawks , vangaurd shock cav.

    Starfire have 19 DPS with 60 models. Waywatchers have 29 DPS with 45 models, Sisters have 25 DPS with 60 models.

    Sisters have by far the best melee stats, and with 60 models, they will be hard to shut down unless you use at least mid level units and they will have the best damage per volley.

    It really depends on the price.
    If sisters cost same as WW they be fine.


    @Busa1227 its more to do with dryads covering a role that is not present in HE army which is cheap anti armoured unit. I said it for long time that treekin are in gpod spot now tho i dont think they be amazing in HE roster but treemen has real potential in my view.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,260Registered Users
    edited May 2018
    I don't know about Treeman. Treeman just doesn't have damage output to be worth bringing. Yes, you can stick him in a unit of PG and he will last a long time, but what can he really do that a dragon can't?

    Fear, terror, rear charges, mobility, breaths... No reason to take him instead of a dragon.

    Treekin can shield AP infantry from damage. Stick one or two over while lions and swordmasters and they might keep their MP up longer. They do a decent job at that when mixed with Wardancers, but both units are non AP, and you're losing the mobility of Wardancers. HE infantry is armoured and slower so there's no drawback there. Treekin can keep up just fine, shielding HE infantry from missiles, infantry and cav, and make heals more effective.

    Dryads fill a niche role that HE lacked so far. DE had swords, HE had only spears. Chaff was a problem for HE, Dryads are good at dealing with that. It will also open up some potential new strategies with vanguard. There won't be only cav, but you could basically have all army components vanguard deployed - melee cav, missile cav, missile infantry and melee infantry.

    Obviously we can't say exactly before actually trying it out in battle, but it's certainly something to think about.

    If Averlorn faction gets access to tree spirit units in MP, they will be able to do almost everything WE can do, but better. I am a bit hyped about trying Averlorn out, but I won't lie and say I'm not worried about them being too strong.



    If sisters cost same as WW they be fine.

    1000-1100 price would be fine. I have a feeling, based on their upkeep cost in let's play campaign, they will be 850-900, which looks rather cheap.

    We will know the price in about 10 hours or so.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,773Registered Users
    Again, all depends on cost efficiency. Especially on how good the new lord is. It won't have any net skill or spell I assume, possibly tempest vs air but no general snare. If you give up a lot not bringing teclis... We'll get an indication very soon.

    I don't think the overlap with we will be the problem, I think possibly a few of the rors might be depending on their cost.
  • Busa1227Busa1227 Posts: 3,118Registered Users
    edited May 2018
    Well, don't take much into account my opinion because I have been away some time but the key WE units are far to be Dryads, Treekin and Treeman. The WE Key units IMO:

    - Waywatchers
    - Starfire
    - Sisters
    - Wild Riders
    - Wardancers
    - Scouts
    - Eternal Guard

    We still need to know the new HE units cost but WW looK better than Sisters without any doubt IMO. HE still won't have cheap AP missile units, super fast infantry able to totally obliterate light infantry and doing decently against M/H infantry at the same time, cheap AP spears, super versatile skirmish cav like Sisters, etc. Anyway, HE are designed to be a jack of all trades and I'm ok with that as long as they won't get the best units in each category.

Sign In or Register to comment.