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Ultimate Estalia Unit List (The Canon Edition)

Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Posts: 1,313Registered Users


Yes, this is gonna be another pretty long post. Don't worry, though; the topic today is way, waaaaaaaaay shorter than Araby was.

Speaking of which, by popular vote, the second Ultimate Unit List will be all about Estalia; the southwestern peninsula of the Old World, home of .



Before I start, a few things:

Mandatory Intro

First, there's quite a bit of non-canon Estalian lore out there from things like the RPGs (not published by GW, plus the 2nd edition is based on retconned Storm of Chaos lore) or the 1st through 3rd editions of WHFB (retconned by 4th edition in the early 1990s). A lot of the Estalian lore on the Wikis and even the usually reliable Lexicanum comes from these non-canon sources.

If you want a list that includes most of that non-canon stuff, you can find it here (credit to PaulH for compiling this):

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?741210-Information-Thread-for-Potential-New-Estalian-Units

Granted, I can't verify where all the info on that list came from, like its reference for Estalian pikemen (the sentence is from the description for Pikemen in the White Dwarf Dogs of War army list, but the actual sentence in the magazine says "Tilean" and the description doesn't mention Estalians at all), but there you go.

I'll also point out areas where I'm speculating about info gaps. If a sentence doesn't have words like "probably" or "most likely", it's from the sources.

Second, this will be a multiple-post thread. It won't be as long as the Araby thread since there isn't nearly as much to say about Estalia, but I'll still try to keep units grouped by type.

Third, critique me. If my writing is garbage or you know I made a mistake or missed something, let me know. If you have a lore correction, please cite the source and (if you can) a page number or chapter for reference. I'm sorry if this feels strict, but I'm trying to stick to canon material, and with all the non-canon and even fan-made lore floating around the Internet, I can't take your words seriously if I can't verify the info myself.

Also, feel free to toss out any questions you have. I can't promise I'll have an answer, but I'll do my best, and there's a lot of other cool people on this forum who'll be happy to oblige you.


A map of the Old World and northern coast of the Southlands to get us oriented. As you can see, Estalia is the not-Iberian Peninsula to the Old World's not-Europe, and it borders not-France and not-Italy. Also, this is about as detailed a canon map of Estalia as you'll find.

Finally, I have a few things to say on the amount of Estalian lore currently in canon sources:

Compared to Kislev, Araby, Tilea/Dogs of War, and even races like the Amazons and Albion, Estalia hasn't gotten as much attention on the forums, YouTube, and other places where people like to speculate about new races. I assumed this was because Estalia doesn't have much lore to talk about, but for this thread, I went digging through the sources and found, much to my surprise,...

That I was totally right.

There's really no way around it: Aside from the fact that it's clearly Warhammer Fantasy's version of Spain and MAYBE Portugal, we know very, very little about Estalia or its people. They've never had an armybook or list (heck, I couldn't even find a single statted Estalian unit in any GW material) and, aside from asking Bretonnia and the Empire to save them from Sultan Jaffar in the 1440s IC, they almost never get talked about in the lore. They're so freaking unknown that we know more about Cathayan armies than we do about Estalian ones.


"But what about Pirazzo's Lost Legion?" I hear you say.





"Surely you're forgetting about them!"

I'm not.

Pirazzo's Lost Legion is a Tilean unit, not an Estalian one.



Ignore their obviously Spanish aesthetics and obvious Conquistador themes for just a moment and listen to their description straight from the Dogs of War armybook (pgs. 38-39):

"Pirazzo's Lost Legion are all that remains of the expedition sent to Lustria by the merchants of Tobaro. The regiment was one of three recruited in Tobaro from among the poverty-stricken youths of the city."

So the Lost Legion was founded by Tilean merchants for a Tilean expedition, and its ranks are filled with poor Tilean youths from Tobaro.

(And yes, Tobaro is in fact a thoroughly Tilean city in thoroughly Tilean lands. Tilea comprises all of the lands that surround the Tilean Sea. Also, Tobaro lies east of the Abasko Mountains, which is explicitly called the geographical border between Tilean and Estalian lands. Why CA totally ignored this and gave Tobaro to both the Estalia province AND faction in Game 1 when geographically divided provinces are a thing in Game 2 is beyond me. It's like giving Ostermark to Kislev.)

But wait! There's more!

"Fernando Pirazzo was hired to command one of the regiments. Although young, he was already an experienced mercenary captain skilled in the art of war. Before the expedition embarked he trained his men in the use of both pike and crossbow, the two traditional weapons of Tilean mercenaries [emphasis mine]..."

So, despite the Lost Legion's appearance and seeming use of somewhat-lifelike tercio tactics...it's still a Tilean regiment made up of Tileans using Tilean tactics and weapons.

The above passage also implies that Fernando Pirazzo, even if he is actually Estalian like his name could arguably suggest (his origins aren't touched on), actually learned to be a soldier in Tilea, not Estalia. This isn't surprising, considering how many foreigners head to Tilea to seek their fortunes, but it definitely helps cement a simple fact:

Aside from looking like stereotypical Conquistadores and using tercio-ish tactics (which are Tilea's shtick in the lore anyway), the Lost Legion has no explicit or implicit connection to Estalia.

But does everything I've said so far mean that we don't know ANYTHING about Estalia or its armies?



Canon lore about Estalia is very scarce, but it does exist, scattered through various sources. Here's a general description of what we know about Estalia from the canon thus far:

Estalia is essentially pre-unification Spain, only without any Moors mixed in and with a seemingly Renaissance level of development (more on that later). It's a parched, arid plateau that's separated from the more fertile lands of Tilea by the Abasko Mountains in the west.

Like Tilea, Estalia is politically divided, although unlike Tilea Estalia has small kingdoms alongside its city-states. Estalia has fewer cities than Tilea, and they're all well fortified. Few of these petty realms are known beyond Estalia, though the city-state of Magritta on the southern coast is apparently considered a great city of the Old World.

Concerning the inhabitants, Estalians are said to be a hardy, rugged, and apparently very proud people; in-universe, it's said in the Empire that Estalians "will slay a man for mistaking them for a Tilean or even greeting them in the Tilean dialect by mistake" (6th edition WHFB rulebook, pg. 166).

Like the Tileans, Estalians are known as traders and travelers, and it's "not unusual to find Estalian merchants in the north, and their mule caravans frequently tour the cities of the southern Empire" (7th edition WHFB rulebook, pg. 152). It's unknown if the Estalians send expeditions to the New World like other human races do (especially the Tileans), but the Lizardmen 7th edition armybook does say on pg. 15 that "Man came to Lustria from every corner of the Old World and beyond", so they presumably do. (The Wiki mentions a colony called Santa Magritta, but I couldn't find mention of it anywhere.)

In war, the Estalians can field Tercio formatioEstalian crossbowmen are common among the ranks of the Dogs of War (White Dwarf #251, pg. 78). It's unknown if Estalia produces many mercenary generals, as they're the only Old World humans who aren't mentioned in the White Dwarf article on Dogs of War generals (White Dwarf #234, pg. 46). Whether or not the Estalians use gunpowder weapons is unknown.

That's basically it as far as a general canon description of Estalia goes. So, without further ado, let's dive right in.

Infantry

(Veteran) Tercio Glaivemen


"Were you expecting pikes? Ha! That's just the sort of thing a Tilean dog like you would say!" (By the way, could someone more knowledgeable about weapons say whether or not this is actually a glaive? There's so many polearms that I lose track of what looks like what.)

According to Wikipedia, a glaive is a European polearm that consists of a single-edged blade at the end of a pole. While there's lots of variance, the blade is generally about 45cm (18 in) long and the pole is 2 meters (7 feet) long.

As for what glaives have to do with Estalia: In the Monstrous Arcanum (8th edition, 2012), we get a description of an Estalian army from the in-universe account of the Tilean wizard Orsini Sardus on pg. 7. It's actually our most important source, since it's the ONLY CANON DESCRIPTION OF AN ESTALIAN ARMY. The Estalians in the story are from the kingdom of Larhgoz, which is attacking the Tilean city of Vedenza. (Don't bother looking for these places, as they're not significant enough to appear on the maps.) After describing the Estalian knights, Orsini mentions that they were accompanied by "Tercio regiments of glaive- and crossbow-armed veterans..."

That the Estalians use Tercios isn't surprising, given that in real-life the Tercio was a famous method of infantry organization developed by Habsburg Spain in the 1500s. In fact, the name itself comes from the term tercio español, or "Spanish third". (Go look it up; it's actually really interesting.)


An accurate, non-romanticized depiction from Osprey publishing of Spanish soldiers around 1547. Uniforms as we know them didn't become a thing in Europe until the late 1600s, so real-life Spanish Tercio troops would've looked pretty close to this in real life.

However, real-life Tercios combined firearms or crossbows, swords (sometimes), and PIKES. Estalian Tercios, by contrast, seem to use glaives as their main melee weapons. (Note that the description explicitly lists the Estalian Tercios as using glaives and crossbows, but not pikes. If they had been using pikes as well, it'd be weird not to mention them if you're going to mention other weapons.)

While it feels weird to have Tercios without pikes, I think I understand why GW gave the Estalians glaives: Tilea already has a monopoly on pikes and the classic Tercio-style tactic of combining pikes and missiles (crossbows, in Tilea's case). That's been the case since at least 1998, fourteen years before we got our first noteworthy description of Estalian troops in the Monstrous Arcanum. Giving the Estalians pikes as their main melee infantry weapon on top of crossbows would've made their infantry exactly like Tilea's. With Glaivemen, Estalian infantry has something unique to offer, which would help if CA and GW ever wanted to flesh them out into a race.

That being said, there's nothing saying that Estalia DOESN'T field any pikemen, so Tercio Pikemen could be another possible unit. After all, this is the only description of an Estalian army we have in the lore, and it's possible that this particular army just didn't have any pikemen with it. Personally, as long as Tilea still has the best pikemen, I'm okay with Estalia having good pikemen.


More troops from the age of the Tercios. I'm not sure what battle this picture depicts (if any), but it gives a good idea of what Estalian infantry could look like.

Another idea, to keep more with the Tercio theme, would be to make Estalian glaives about as long as pikes. Instead of getting a bonus against cavalry, the glaives could give more armor-piercing damage or something. Then they'd function more like classic Tercio pikemen while keeping some distinct traits from their Tilean counterparts.

Additionally, since Estalia is confirmed to use Tercios, perhaps they could also have other types of units associated with Tercios; Swordsmen were often used to protect the pike blocks' flanks, and handgunners were a staple of real-life Tercio warfare. This would be a good way to flesh out their unit roster, even if it isn't super creative.

Aside from the glaives, note that Orsini describes both the Estalian Glaivemen and Crossbowmen as veterans. Considering the nasty stuff he has to say about the other parts of the Estalian army (more on that later) and his understandable bias against the Estalians for attacking his city, it's interesting that he ascribes the Tercio infantry with moniker like veterans. It implies a degree of respect for their fighting prowess, regardless of whether the troops in question actually were veterans. They seem to have held their own in battle with the Tileans, so Estalian Tercio soldiers are probably of decent quality.

Crossbowmen and (Veteran) Tercio Crossbowmen


"My dream is to fire two bolts per minute. So far, I can manage nearly one. (I call it none.)" (No GW art. What a shocker.)

Using two units in one entry may seem a bit cheap, but there's barely any lore about either or these, so I'll just save us some space.

According to the generic Dogs of War army list in White Dwarf #251 (pg. 78), "the bulk of missile troops in a Dogs of War army are formed by crossbowmen from Tilea, Estalia, and the Border Princes." If Estalian Crossbowmen are standard fare in Dogs of War armies, then they're almost certainly even more common in Estalian armies.

As for the Tercio variant, the same Monstrous Arcanum quote that mentions Glaivemen also mentions "crossbow-armed veterans" as part of the Estalian Tercio regiments. While these could be normal crossbowmen, the fact that they're A) veterans and B) part of the Tercio regiments means that they could be a different unit altogether.

Bandits


Bandits: Just Tilean propaganda, or a menace to make the Dark Gods themselves quake in fear?! (Not a GW pic.)

Bandits are an iffy inclusion to this list, since they come from an anti-Estalian account written by a Tilean who fought against them, but without any better sources to go off of and with such a lack of lore I decided to include them here.

When our friend Orsini describes the invading army of Larhgoz, he says that mixed with the Tercio regiments in the Estalian lines were "all manner of bandit rabble, spurred on by the hunger in their bellies" (Monstrous Arcanum, pg. 7). That's all the info we have about them. (The "hunger in their bellies" line refers to the Skaven-created famine in Larhgoz that drove the Estalians to try and conquer the more fertile lands of their hated Tilean neighbor Vedenza.)

It's totally possible and perhaps even likely that Orsini's disparaging remarks are simply his way of referring to less professional elements of the Estalian army, such as a peasant levy, local militia, or even sellswords (who could've very well been bandits before being hired or pressed into service). But that's just speculation, and Orsini's few words are all we have to go off of regarding these troops.


Another non-GW bandit pic, this time fitting the generic low-tier soldier a bit more.

Whatever these troops are, the inclusion of such undisciplined units in Estalian armies (if they actually were undisciplined THANK YOU UNRELIABLE NARRATOR) makes sense. Since Estalia mixes elements of medieval and Renaissance Spain, the existence of units like Bandits or peasant levies alongside their Tercios wouldn't surprise me. It'd be like how the Empire is based of the Renaissance Holy Roman Empire, but it can still field units like Flagellants which are more based on the Middle Ages.

That's pretty much it for Estalia's canon infantry. Needless to say, it's pretty bare bones. So, just for fun, let's take a quick look at the once-canon-but-not-anymore WHFB 3rd edition, which had actual, statted Estalian units in its Old Worlders mercenary contingent in Warhammer Armies (1991) on pg. 161!


The Once-canon section

Hombres Villanos



Bandolleros Gringos



Will you look at all those additional stats compared to later editions...

That's it for part 1!



I'll cover the rest of Estalia's units in the next post. It shouldn't take longer than a few days to write up.

Also, leave your vote for the next thread topic. The choices are:

1) Middenland
2) Vampire Coast
3) Amazons (and...something else)

Chao!
«1

Comments

  • Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Posts: 1,313Registered Users
    Aaaaaaand I just noticed that I cut off during the second freaking sentence.



    This is why editors are important, ladies and gentlemen.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 13,130Registered Users, Moderators
    Well done.
    -Forum Terms and Conditions: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest
    -Using all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Please don't.
    -The "Spam" flag is not a "disagree" flag. Have a care.
    -...No, no the "Abuse" flag isn't a "disagree" flag either!
    -5.7 Summon a moderator if someone seems to be out of line, or use the report button. Do NOT become another party to misbehaviour
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 5,820Registered Users
    Try looking for Mordheim stuff in the Citadel Journal, specifically the Lustrian expeditions stuff, for the Estalian colony in the New World. I went chasing it up a while back and that's where I found it.

    Interestingly, it's further south than most colonies - it's on one of the islands off the north coast of Lustria rather than being on the isthmus like the rest. The northernmost of the cluster near the mouth of the Amaxon, IIRC.
  • Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Posts: 1,313Registered Users
    Draxynnic said:

    Try looking for Mordheim stuff in the Citadel Journal, specifically the Lustrian expeditions stuff, for the Estalian colony in the New World. I went chasing it up a while back and that's where I found it.

    Interestingly, it's further south than most colonies - it's on one of the islands off the north coast of Lustria rather than being on the isthmus like the rest. The northernmost of the cluster near the mouth of the Amaxon, IIRC.

    Thanks for the tidbit. I'll give it a look-see.
  • Berg_Of_The_WestBerg_Of_The_West Posts: 522Registered Users
  • WyvaxWyvax Posts: 1,917Registered Users
    Thanks for this @Some_Scribe you do good work! And yes that is an accurate representation of a glaive. Most polearms lack a lot of standards to differentiate them from one an other, and the glaive is the most generic in this regard, the word often being applied to voulges, fouchards and billhooks in equal measure. If it's a hacky, stabby, hooky thing on a pole it probably qualifies. :p
    Tomes read: The Great Betrayal, Master of Dragons, Curse of the Phoenix Crown, Trollslayer, Skavenslayer, Daemonslayer, Dragonslayer, Beastslayer, Vampireslayer, Malekith, The Bloody Handed

    It's T. rex, not T-Rex, you filthy casuals.
  • baronblackbaronblack Posts: 3,202Registered Users
    Mordheim has something too. Also Bretonnia new techs in the game assumes that there are "Estalian Universities".
    This is important enough, because hints that they have trained leaderships and probably even advanced gunpowder weapons. This is somewhat the opposite of the real world. It was Italy that was knew for universities.


    I read somewhere that when GW created both countries they mixed up their inspiration stereotypes to confuse the reader, so much that a stranger could not differentiate the two nations
    The name of Estalia resemble a dialog in an italian film of the 50s where the actor exclaimed in bad spanish "esta Italia?" in a speedy way. But you could hear only "Estalia".I would ask Cavatore himself about this if it is true, but damn, the guy has completely disappeared.
  • az88az88 Posts: 3,065Registered Users

    .I would ask Cavatore himself about this if it is true, but damn, the guy has completely disappeared.

    Alessio is still around. Try him in the Kings of War groups, he shows up from time to time - especially if you talk about My Little Pony.
  • baronblackbaronblack Posts: 3,202Registered Users
    az88 said:

    .I would ask Cavatore himself about this if it is true, but damn, the guy has completely disappeared.

    Alessio is still around. Try him in the Kings of War groups, he shows up from time to time - especially if you talk about My Little Pony.
    Oh, I mean, he has not commented about Warhammer since ages. I just want to interview him about Oldhammer, that citadel Estalian miniature could have been expanded on, if not for our favorite Space Marines...
  • az88az88 Posts: 3,065Registered Users

    az88 said:

    .I would ask Cavatore himself about this if it is true, but damn, the guy has completely disappeared.

    Alessio is still around. Try him in the Kings of War groups, he shows up from time to time - especially if you talk about My Little Pony.
    Oh, I mean, he has not commented about Warhammer since ages. I just want to interview him about Oldhammer, that citadel Estalian miniature could have been expanded on, if not for our favorite Space Marines...
    You mean the range the Perry Brothers did? That wasn't expanded upon due to contract issues.
  • GollummypreciousGollummyprecious Posts: 395Registered Users



    Yes, this is gonna be another pretty long post. Don't worry, though; the topic today is way, waaaaaaaaay shorter than Araby was.

    Speaking of which, by popular vote, the second Ultimate Unit List will be all about Estalia; the southwestern peninsula of the Old World, home of .



    Before I start, a few things:

    Mandatory Intro

    First, there's quite a bit of non-canon Estalian lore out there from things like the RPGs (not published by GW, plus the 2nd edition is based on retconned Storm of Chaos lore) or the 1st through 3rd editions of WHFB (retconned by 4th edition in the early 1990s). A lot of the Estalian lore on the Wikis and even the usually reliable Lexicanum comes from these non-canon sources.

    If you want a list that includes most of that non-canon stuff, you can find it here (credit to PaulH for compiling this):

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?741210-Information-Thread-for-Potential-New-Estalian-Units

    Granted, I can't verify where all the info on that list came from, like its reference for Estalian pikemen (the sentence is from the description for Pikemen in the White Dwarf Dogs of War army list, but the actual sentence in the magazine says "Tilean" and the description doesn't mention Estalians at all), but there you go.

    I'll also point out areas where I'm speculating about info gaps. If a sentence doesn't have words like "probably" or "most likely", it's from the sources.

    Second, this will be a multiple-post thread. It won't be as long as the Araby thread since there isn't nearly as much to say about Estalia, but I'll still try to keep units grouped by type.

    Third, critique me. If my writing is garbage or you know I made a mistake or missed something, let me know. If you have a lore correction, please cite the source and (if you can) a page number or chapter for reference. I'm sorry if this feels strict, but I'm trying to stick to canon material, and with all the non-canon and even fan-made lore floating around the Internet, I can't take your words seriously if I can't verify the info myself.

    Also, feel free to toss out any questions you have. I can't promise I'll have an answer, but I'll do my best, and there's a lot of other cool people on this forum who'll be happy to oblige you.


    A map of the Old World and northern coast of the Southlands to get us oriented. As you can see, Estalia is the not-Iberian Peninsula to the Old World's not-Europe, and it borders not-France and not-Italy. Also, this is about as detailed a canon map of Estalia as you'll find.

    Finally, I have a few things to say on the amount of Estalian lore currently in canon sources:

    Compared to Kislev, Araby, Tilea/Dogs of War, and even races like the Amazons and Albion, Estalia hasn't gotten as much attention on the forums, YouTube, and other places where people like to speculate about new races. I assumed this was because Estalia doesn't have much lore to talk about, but for this thread, I went digging through the sources and found, much to my surprise,...

    That I was totally right.

    There's really no way around it: Aside from the fact that it's clearly Warhammer Fantasy's version of Spain and MAYBE Portugal, we know very, very little about Estalia or its people. They've never had an armybook or list (heck, I couldn't even find a single statted Estalian unit in any GW material) and, aside from asking Bretonnia and the Empire to save them from Sultan Jaffar in the 1440s IC, they almost never get talked about in the lore. They're so freaking unknown that we know more about Cathayan armies than we do about Estalian ones.


    "But what about Pirazzo's Lost Legion?" I hear you say.





    "Surely you're forgetting about them!"

    I'm not.

    Pirazzo's Lost Legion is a Tilean unit, not an Estalian one.



    Ignore their obviously Spanish aesthetics and obvious Conquistador themes for just a moment and listen to their description straight from the Dogs of War armybook (pgs. 38-39):

    "Pirazzo's Lost Legion are all that remains of the expedition sent to Lustria by the merchants of Tobaro. The regiment was one of three recruited in Tobaro from among the poverty-stricken youths of the city."

    So the Lost Legion was founded by Tilean merchants for a Tilean expedition, and its ranks are filled with poor Tilean youths from Tobaro.

    (And yes, Tobaro is in fact a thoroughly Tilean city in thoroughly Tilean lands. Tilea comprises all of the lands that surround the Tilean Sea. Also, Tobaro lies east of the Abasko Mountains, which is explicitly called the geographical border between Tilean and Estalian lands. Why CA totally ignored this and gave Tobaro to both the Estalia province AND faction in Game 1 when geographically divided provinces are a thing in Game 2 is beyond me. It's like giving Ostermark to Kislev.)

    But wait! There's more!

    "Fernando Pirazzo was hired to command one of the regiments. Although young, he was already an experienced mercenary captain skilled in the art of war. Before the expedition embarked he trained his men in the use of both pike and crossbow, the two traditional weapons of Tilean mercenaries [emphasis mine]..."

    So, despite the Lost Legion's appearance and seeming use of somewhat-lifelike tercio tactics...it's still a Tilean regiment made up of Tileans using Tilean tactics and weapons.

    The above passage also implies that Fernando Pirazzo, even if he is actually Estalian like his name could arguably suggest (his origins aren't touched on), actually learned to be a soldier in Tilea, not Estalia. This isn't surprising, considering how many foreigners head to Tilea to seek their fortunes, but it definitely helps cement a simple fact:

    Aside from looking like stereotypical Conquistadores and using tercio-ish tactics (which are Tilea's shtick in the lore anyway), the Lost Legion has no explicit or implicit connection to Estalia.

    But does everything I've said so far mean that we don't know ANYTHING about Estalia or its armies?



    Canon lore about Estalia is very scarce, but it does exist, scattered through various sources. Here's a general description of what we know about Estalia from the canon thus far:

    Estalia is essentially pre-unification Spain, only without any Moors mixed in and with a seemingly Renaissance level of development (more on that later). It's a parched, arid plateau that's separated from the more fertile lands of Tilea by the Abasko Mountains in the west.

    Like Tilea, Estalia is politically divided, although unlike Tilea Estalia has small kingdoms alongside its city-states. Estalia has fewer cities than Tilea, and they're all well fortified. Few of these petty realms are known beyond Estalia, though the city-state of Magritta on the southern coast is apparently considered a great city of the Old World.

    Concerning the inhabitants, Estalians are said to be a hardy, rugged, and apparently very proud people; in-universe, it's said in the Empire that Estalians "will slay a man for mistaking them for a Tilean or even greeting them in the Tilean dialect by mistake" (6th edition WHFB rulebook, pg. 166).

    Like the Tileans, Estalians are known as traders and travelers, and it's "not unusual to find Estalian merchants in the north, and their mule caravans frequently tour the cities of the southern Empire" (7th edition WHFB rulebook, pg. 152). It's unknown if the Estalians send expeditions to the New World like other human races do (especially the Tileans), but the Lizardmen 7th edition armybook does say on pg. 15 that "Man came to Lustria from every corner of the Old World and beyond", so they presumably do. (The Wiki mentions a colony called Santa Magritta, but I couldn't find mention of it anywhere.)

    In war, the Estalians can field Tercio formatioEstalian crossbowmen are common among the ranks of the Dogs of War (White Dwarf #251, pg. 78). It's unknown if Estalia produces many mercenary generals, as they're the only Old World humans who aren't mentioned in the White Dwarf article on Dogs of War generals (White Dwarf #234, pg. 46). Whether or not the Estalians use gunpowder weapons is unknown.

    That's basically it as far as a general canon description of Estalia goes. So, without further ado, let's dive right in.

    Infantry

    (Veteran) Tercio Glaivemen


    "Were you expecting pikes? Ha! That's just the sort of thing a Tilean dog like you would say!" (By the way, could someone more knowledgeable about weapons say whether or not this is actually a glaive? There's so many polearms that I lose track of what looks like what.)

    According to Wikipedia, a glaive is a European polearm that consists of a single-edged blade at the end of a pole. While there's lots of variance, the blade is generally about 45cm (18 in) long and the pole is 2 meters (7 feet) long.

    As for what glaives have to do with Estalia: In the Monstrous Arcanum (8th edition, 2012), we get a description of an Estalian army from the in-universe account of the Tilean wizard Orsini Sardus on pg. 7. It's actually our most important source, since it's the ONLY CANON DESCRIPTION OF AN ESTALIAN ARMY. The Estalians in the story are from the kingdom of Larhgoz, which is attacking the Tilean city of Vedenza. (Don't bother looking for these places, as they're not significant enough to appear on the maps.) After describing the Estalian knights, Orsini mentions that they were accompanied by "Tercio regiments of glaive- and crossbow-armed veterans..."

    That the Estalians use Tercios isn't surprising, given that in real-life the Tercio was a famous method of infantry organization developed by Habsburg Spain in the 1500s. In fact, the name itself comes from the term tercio español, or "Spanish third". (Go look it up; it's actually really interesting.)


    An accurate, non-romanticized depiction from Osprey publishing of Spanish soldiers around 1547. Uniforms as we know them didn't become a thing in Europe until the late 1600s, so real-life Spanish Tercio troops would've looked pretty close to this in real life.

    However, real-life Tercios combined firearms or crossbows, swords (sometimes), and PIKES. Estalian Tercios, by contrast, seem to use glaives as their main melee weapons. (Note that the description explicitly lists the Estalian Tercios as using glaives and crossbows, but not pikes. If they had been using pikes as well, it'd be weird not to mention them if you're going to mention other weapons.)

    While it feels weird to have Tercios without pikes, I think I understand why GW gave the Estalians glaives: Tilea already has a monopoly on pikes and the classic Tercio-style tactic of combining pikes and missiles (crossbows, in Tilea's case). That's been the case since at least 1998, fourteen years before we got our first noteworthy description of Estalian troops in the Monstrous Arcanum. Giving the Estalians pikes as their main melee infantry weapon on top of crossbows would've made their infantry exactly like Tilea's. With Glaivemen, Estalian infantry has something unique to offer, which would help if CA and GW ever wanted to flesh them out into a race.

    That being said, there's nothing saying that Estalia DOESN'T field any pikemen, so Tercio Pikemen could be another possible unit. After all, this is the only description of an Estalian army we have in the lore, and it's possible that this particular army just didn't have any pikemen with it. Personally, as long as Tilea still has the best pikemen, I'm okay with Estalia having good pikemen.


    More troops from the age of the Tercios. I'm not sure what battle this picture depicts (if any), but it gives a good idea of what Estalian infantry could look like.

    Another idea, to keep more with the Tercio theme, would be to make Estalian glaives about as long as pikes. Instead of getting a bonus against cavalry, the glaives could give more armor-piercing damage or something. Then they'd function more like classic Tercio pikemen while keeping some distinct traits from their Tilean counterparts.

    Additionally, since Estalia is confirmed to use Tercios, perhaps they could also have other types of units associated with Tercios; Swordsmen were often used to protect the pike blocks' flanks, and handgunners were a staple of real-life Tercio warfare. This would be a good way to flesh out their unit roster, even if it isn't super creative.

    Aside from the glaives, note that Orsini describes both the Estalian Glaivemen and Crossbowmen as veterans. Considering the nasty stuff he has to say about the other parts of the Estalian army (more on that later) and his understandable bias against the Estalians for attacking his city, it's interesting that he ascribes the Tercio infantry with moniker like veterans. It implies a degree of respect for their fighting prowess, regardless of whether the troops in question actually were veterans. They seem to have held their own in battle with the Tileans, so Estalian Tercio soldiers are probably of decent quality.

    Crossbowmen and (Veteran) Tercio Crossbowmen


    "My dream is to fire two bolts per minute. So far, I can manage nearly one. (I call it none.)" (No GW art. What a shocker.)

    Using two units in one entry may seem a bit cheap, but there's barely any lore about either or these, so I'll just save us some space.

    According to the generic Dogs of War army list in White Dwarf #251 (pg. 78), "the bulk of missile troops in a Dogs of War army are formed by crossbowmen from Tilea, Estalia, and the Border Princes." If Estalian Crossbowmen are standard fare in Dogs of War armies, then they're almost certainly even more common in Estalian armies.

    As for the Tercio variant, the same Monstrous Arcanum quote that mentions Glaivemen also mentions "crossbow-armed veterans" as part of the Estalian Tercio regiments. While these could be normal crossbowmen, the fact that they're A) veterans and B) part of the Tercio regiments means that they could be a different unit altogether.

    Bandits


    Bandits: Just Tilean propaganda, or a menace to make the Dark Gods themselves quake in fear?! (Not a GW pic.)

    Bandits are an iffy inclusion to this list, since they come from an anti-Estalian account written by a Tilean who fought against them, but without any better sources to go off of and with such a lack of lore I decided to include them here.

    When our friend Orsini describes the invading army of Larhgoz, he says that mixed with the Tercio regiments in the Estalian lines were "all manner of bandit rabble, spurred on by the hunger in their bellies" (Monstrous Arcanum, pg. 7). That's all the info we have about them. (The "hunger in their bellies" line refers to the Skaven-created famine in Larhgoz that drove the Estalians to try and conquer the more fertile lands of their hated Tilean neighbor Vedenza.)

    It's totally possible and perhaps even likely that Orsini's disparaging remarks are simply his way of referring to less professional elements of the Estalian army, such as a peasant levy, local militia, or even sellswords (who could've very well been bandits before being hired or pressed into service). But that's just speculation, and Orsini's few words are all we have to go off of regarding these troops.


    Another non-GW bandit pic, this time fitting the generic low-tier soldier a bit more.

    Whatever these troops are, the inclusion of such undisciplined units in Estalian armies (if they actually were undisciplined THANK YOU UNRELIABLE NARRATOR) makes sense. Since Estalia mixes elements of medieval and Renaissance Spain, the existence of units like Bandits or peasant levies alongside their Tercios wouldn't surprise me. It'd be like how the Empire is based of the Renaissance Holy Roman Empire, but it can still field units like Flagellants which are more based on the Middle Ages.

    That's pretty much it for Estalia's canon infantry. Needless to say, it's pretty bare bones. So, just for fun, let's take a quick look at the once-canon-but-not-anymore WHFB 3rd edition, which had actual, statted Estalian units in its Old Worlders mercenary contingent in Warhammer Armies (1991) on pg. 161!


    The Once-canon section

    Hombres Villanos



    Bandolleros Gringos



    Will you look at all those additional stats compared to later editions...

    That's it for part 1!



    I'll cover the rest of Estalia's units in the next post. It shouldn't take longer than a few days to write up.

    Also, leave your vote for the next thread topic. The choices are:

    1) Middenland
    2) Vampire Coast
    3) Amazons (and...something else)

    Chao!

    nice thread well done! Estalia could bring a mixed roster of professionnal swordsmen and crossbowmen with good armor and stats but average morale, they could also field a good selection of elite gunpowder skirmisher but few artillery. Finally they could have some good light cavalry and skirmisher cavalry (hybrid of melee/range with good armor stats) and a small selection of heavy cav. A good thing to do would to have Estalia having morer RoR than the other races, but having an average morale in their main roster to kinda counter balance their very good mercenaries and armor stats, accentuating the fact that Estalia does have a heavy focus on mercenaries...

    And my next pick for the next Race would be MIDDENLAND! Feel free to MP and chat w me on dicscord on that, i actually have a cult of ulric/middenland army list on one of my White Dwarf...
    Sanity is a curse, madness offers the only freedom...
  • Nihil515Nihil515 Posts: 109Registered Users
    edited May 2018
    Yep. Funny Information. But you know why all this confusion with Estalia?

    All that mistakes show the terrible knowledge of Spanish History of english developers of the warhammer lore. Specially during a time in which internet was not there.

    -Pirazzo should be Estalian, is obvious. Is based on Gonzalo Pizarro a Spanish conqueror.

    -Colombo should be Estalian, okey he was born in Italy but his expedition was founded by the Kingdom of Castilla.

    -Tobaro is mention as an Tilean City, why are you doing this? It even has a name close enought to a Spanish city: Toledo. Even if his position is Valencia. Whatever.

    -That Stupid names:
    Estalian Hombres Villanos. That literally mean (Estalian Evil Man)
    Estalian Bandoleros Gringos. You know, Gringo is a namet that used to be a insult for people who doesnt speak spanish, specially for people who speak english. Is stupid that some unit has as a name an insult for themselves.

    Spanish culture has had historically and opposition to English culture. Thats why Enlgish people who make the Estalian lore make so many incroguences. Cause usually our historicians have look history with their own subjectivity and projections.

    I ask CA to use their fredom to treat Estalia correctly, as they are doing making Tobaro an Estalian city, and not a Tilean one.
    Tercios should be our creation (obviously I'm a spanish guy) even if Tileans has copy it.
    And finally, for all the fandom, don't get obsesed with respect the Oficial Lore, it have changed many times. If changes are for better, thats perfect.

    -edited for the correction of some spelling mistakes- sorry for any mistake commited.
  • az88az88 Posts: 3,065Registered Users
    Honestly, Estalia and Tilea have nothing to do with the writers not knowing about Spanish history and everything to do with them not caring. It's not written to be anything other than daft. It's a Nigel Stillman book, which means it's intended to be "funny" in a way that often only appeals to Nigel. The joke names have to be basic enough (using Spanish words English-speakers know) to make non-Spanish-speakers chuckle and the book focuses on GCSE-level renaissance history and transplants it all into the context of a fictional Italy.

    If you asked Tuomas or Rick (who helped write the book) to write an historical game they'd get the history spot on (and have). That's not the intent here. You have to forget the real history and embrace the fiction. The entire Warhammer World is a fictional earth setting, full of dodgy jokes and silly stereotypes. It's just how it is. Estalia isn't Spain - it's Estalia.
  • baronblackbaronblack Posts: 3,202Registered Users
    Nihil515 said:

    Yep. Funny Information. But you know why all this confusion with Estalia?

    All that mistakes show the terrible knowledge of Spanish History of english developers of the warhammer lore. Specially during a time in which internet was not there.

    -Pirazzo should be Estalian, is obvious. Is based on Gonzalo Pizarro a Spanish conqueror.

    -Colombo should be Estalian, okey he was born in Italy but his expedition was founded by the Kingdom of Castilla.

    -Tobaro is mention as an Tilean City, why are you doing this? It even has a name close enought to a Spanish city: Toledo. Even if his position is Valencia. Whatever.

    -That Stupid names:
    Estalian Hombres Villanos. That literally mean (Estalian Evil Man)
    Estalian Bandoleros Gringos. You know, Gringo is a namet that used to be a insult for people who doesnt speak spanish, specially for people who speak english. Is stupid that some unit has as a name an insult for themselves.

    Spanish culture has had historically and opposition to English culture. Thats why Enlgish people who make the Estalian lore make so many incroguences. Cause usually our historicians have look history with their own subjectivity and projections.

    I ask CA to use their fredom to treat Estalia correctly, as they are doing making Tobaro an Estalian city, and not a Tilean one.
    Tercios should be our creation (obviously I'm a spanish guy) even if Tileans has copy it.
    And finally, for all the fandom, don't get obsesed with respect the Oficial Lore, it have changed many times. If changes are for better, thats perfect.

    -edited for the correction of some spelling mistakes- sorry for any mistake commited.

    Ehm lad, I have to tell this to you. The confusion about the two countries was INTENDED since their origin. Tobaro is an anagram for an abandoned village in Tuscany, just as every Tilean city is an anagram or a misspelled name. Miragliano is Marigliano, etc etc.
    Also, that was Oldhammer, there were jokes everywhere. Like the Dwarfs were really drunk scots with an heavy scottish accent. They wore TARTANS.
    Why compare it with the actual world history that has nothing to share with the Warhammer World history? It's like Equix arguments all over again.

    To add salt to the injury, 4 of the Six Estalian Kingdoms have italian cities names. And the thing of greeting Estalians in Tilean is completely swapped. In Southern Italy, being mistaken for a Spanish is serious offense, especially in certain zones of Sicily. So yeah, I think that giving the names of the country, their completely swapped tradition and weaponry and the general sillyness of names and locations, the whole confusion about them was intended just for fun. I really doubt that they have done this unintentionally.
  • Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Posts: 1,313Registered Users
    @baronblack

    Out of curiosity, in what source are these Estalian kingdoms named? So far, the only two named Estalian kingdoms I've found in canon are Larghoz and Geulata, both from the Monstrous Arcanum.
  • baronblackbaronblack Posts: 3,202Registered Users

    @baronblack

    Out of curiosity, in what source are these Estalian kingdoms named? So far, the only two named Estalian kingdoms I've found in canon are Larghoz and Geulata, both from the Monstrous Arcanum.

    Just search Estalia on the Wiki.
    They are listed there. They are super silly italian-spanished names. I don't know the source but it seems RPG.

    I want the 4th edition now even more just to see if they changed their names
  • Nihil515Nihil515 Posts: 109Registered Users
    edited May 2018

    Nihil515 said:

    Yep. Funny Information. But you know why all this confusion with Estalia?

    All that mistakes show the terrible knowledge of Spanish History of english developers of the warhammer lore. Specially during a time in which internet was not there.

    -Pirazzo should be Estalian, is obvious. Is based on Gonzalo Pizarro a Spanish conqueror.

    -Colombo should be Estalian, okey he was born in Italy but his expedition was founded by the Kingdom of Castilla.

    -Tobaro is mention as an Tilean City, why are you doing this? It even has a name close enought to a Spanish city: Toledo. Even if his position is Valencia. Whatever.

    -That Stupid names:
    Estalian Hombres Villanos. That literally mean (Estalian Evil Man)
    Estalian Bandoleros Gringos. You know, Gringo is a namet that used to be a insult for people who doesnt speak spanish, specially for people who speak english. Is stupid that some unit has as a name an insult for themselves.

    Spanish culture has had historically and opposition to English culture. Thats why Enlgish people who make the Estalian lore make so many incroguences. Cause usually our historicians have look history with their own subjectivity and projections.

    I ask CA to use their fredom to treat Estalia correctly, as they are doing making Tobaro an Estalian city, and not a Tilean one.
    Tercios should be our creation (obviously I'm a spanish guy) even if Tileans has copy it.
    And finally, for all the fandom, don't get obsesed with respect the Oficial Lore, it have changed many times. If changes are for better, thats perfect.

    -edited for the correction of some spelling mistakes- sorry for any mistake commited.

    Ehm lad, I have to tell this to you. The confusion about the two countries was INTENDED since their origin. Tobaro is an anagram for an abandoned village in Tuscany, just as every Tilean city is an anagram or a misspelled name. Miragliano is Marigliano, etc etc.
    Also, that was Oldhammer, there were jokes everywhere. Like the Dwarfs were really drunk scots with an heavy scottish accent. They wore TARTANS.
    Why compare it with the actual world history that has nothing to share with the Warhammer World history? It's like Equix arguments all over again.

    To add salt to the injury, 4 of the Six Estalian Kingdoms have italian cities names. And the thing of greeting Estalians in Tilean is completely swapped. In Southern Italy, being mistaken for a Spanish is serious offense, especially in certain zones of Sicily. So yeah, I think that giving the names of the country, their completely swapped tradition and weaponry and the general sillyness of names and locations, the whole confusion about them was intended just for fun. I really doubt that they have done this unintentionally.
    Oh I get your point. So because the confusion was made intentionally it changes it all...
    If they made that kind of jokes (that only british people undestand) probably it is because they didn't think that their product would be exported around the world. Even to España (spain)

    For me is not a injury. I don't want an historical game, I just want the to take some cool aspect of history and traslating them into a fantasy game. And I think that my Country have enought potential for that. Even if they cut Andalusia (the most topical region of my country).

    If my hypothesis about lacking of knowledge is wrong. Okey. It was intentional. No problemo man. (Even if I still doubt it, look Pizarro, the discovery of Lustria, everything giving to Tilean. Or worst, our reconquest of the peninsula from the ocupation of Araby was done by Bretonia. Look like Estalian are pretty stuppid in warhammer world. Whatever.)

    My point is that there is no need to conserve that "jokes", even more, now, that Warhammer is dead. And now could be the moment where CA use that freedom to create a cool faction by conserving those elements from the warhammer history that are need, but adding them a new flavour that make justice to a faction, making it desirable to play with it.

    Please don't add Estalians Evil Mans. Its really Stupid.

    Hope I have explain my point in a comprehensible english.
  • Nihil515Nihil515 Posts: 109Registered Users
    edited May 2018
    az88 said:

    Honestly, Estalia and Tilea have nothing to do with the writers not knowing about Spanish history and everything to do with them not caring. It's not written to be anything other than daft. It's a Nigel Stillman book, which means it's intended to be "funny" in a way that often only appeals to Nigel. The joke names have to be basic enough (using Spanish words English-speakers know) to make non-Spanish-speakers chuckle and the book focuses on GCSE-level renaissance history and transplants it all into the context of a fictional Italy.

    If you asked Tuomas or Rick (who helped write the book) to write an historical game they'd get the history spot on (and have). That's not the intent here. You have to forget the real history and embrace the fiction. The entire Warhammer World is a fictional earth setting, full of dodgy jokes and silly stereotypes. It's just how it is. Estalia isn't Spain - it's Estalia.

    Your sentence: "You have to forget the real history and embrace the fiction"
    Oh really? They take historical events like the ocuppation of "Araby" to "Estalia" and them make a reconquest completly executed by bretonians. Because, you know, is cooler that Bretonians helps Estalian to liberate their country and don't asked for nothing in exchange. WTF???

    If they should have know enought history, they would have said that from the small kindom of Asturias a reconquest was made by the Estalians. Or something like that. There was no need to make Bretonia enter in that conflict. And the same with Pizarro, Lustria, and the small pieces of Lore that you can found in the books. Even the confusions between Estalians and Tileans. We love italian people, their way of thinking and living are really close to us. Don't know where that joke comes from.

    Whatever. I doubt that they manage the history. In my opinion they have some vague ideas, and they throw it there. But you can think the other version, of course.

    And yes. Warhammer is fantasy, but is obvious that it have an historical base. Look Bretonia, the Empire, Tilea, etc.
  • az88az88 Posts: 3,065Registered Users
    Nihil515 said:

    az88 said:

    Honestly, Estalia and Tilea have nothing to do with the writers not knowing about Spanish history and everything to do with them not caring. It's not written to be anything other than daft. It's a Nigel Stillman book, which means it's intended to be "funny" in a way that often only appeals to Nigel. The joke names have to be basic enough (using Spanish words English-speakers know) to make non-Spanish-speakers chuckle and the book focuses on GCSE-level renaissance history and transplants it all into the context of a fictional Italy.

    If you asked Tuomas or Rick (who helped write the book) to write an historical game they'd get the history spot on (and have). That's not the intent here. You have to forget the real history and embrace the fiction. The entire Warhammer World is a fictional earth setting, full of dodgy jokes and silly stereotypes. It's just how it is. Estalia isn't Spain - it's Estalia.

    Your sentence: "You have to forget the real history and embrace the fiction"
    Oh really? They take historical events like the ocuppation of "Araby" to "Estalia" and them make a reconquest completly executed by bretonians. Because, you know, is cooler that Bretonians helps Estalian to liberate their country and don't asked for nothing in exchange. WTF???

    If they should have know enought history, they would have said that from the small kindom of Asturias a reconquest was made by the Estalians. Or something like that. There was no need to make Bretonia enter in that conflict. And the same with Pizarro, Lustria, and the small pieces of Lore that you can found in the books. Even the confusions between Estalians and Tileans. We love italian people, their way of thinking and living are really close to us. Don't know where that joke comes from.

    Whatever. I doubt that they manage the history. In my opinion they have some vague ideas, and they throw it there. But you can think the other version, of course.

    And yes. Warhammer is fantasy, but is obvious that it have an historical base. Look Bretonia, the Empire, Tilea, etc.
    Bretonnia is involved to make Bretonnia look good. The Empire and Bretonnia had army books and miniatures and the "filler" nations of the Old World got to be invaded or liberated by them as required. It's all about making the main factions look powerful and cool. Albion is a very silly take on various British legends and historical stereotypes. It's not meant to be a history of the British peoples.

    You can believe what you wish, as you say. However, if you look at the historical games these same authors have produced you'll note that they take accuracy very seriously in that context. Rick Priestley, one of the three authors, is a committee member of the Society of Ancients historical wargaming group and author of 3 award winning historical games. Nigel Stillman, the lead author, was a professional archaeologist (specialising in Egyptology and then working in medieval archaeology) before he got into game design. If you think they lack enough understanding of the time period to make things accurate if that was the intention, you may be mistaken. Before he worked in fantasy gaming Nigel produced a number of historical rule sets, including "Armies of the Ancient Near East - 3000BC to 539BC"....I know this because my Assyriology professor and I used to play using those rules. The fact that he used those wargames rules to familiarise students with various concepts probably attests to the accuracy that Stillman can manage when that's his intent.

    Albion is not Britain. Estalia is not Spain. Nehekhara is not Egypt. Those places might provide loose inspiration, but you can't ask for historical accuracy when you're not dealing with the same world.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 5,820Registered Users
    Honestly, despite the clear real-world inspiration that Games Workshop has taken, it's pretty clear that faithfully reproducing historical nations was never their goal.

    Consider: Albion is a ****-take of pre-roman Britain. Bretonnia is a mashup of both sides of the Hundred Years War with Arthurian overtones. Kislev is a mashup of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth with Russia while being smaller in area than not-Germany. The Crusades are not-Europe uniting behind not-Spain because, first, not-Araby is in northwestern not-Africa since the Arabian Peninsula doesn't even exist on the map and, second, the not-Byzantine Empire cross Atlantis is in the middle of the not-Atlantic locked in a sometimes-hot-sometimes-cold war with cartoonishly evil Sparta cross I don't even know located in Canada rather than being under threat from the not-Arabyans.

    And that's without even considering that the Scandinavians are running around shirtless in below-freezing conditions worshiping literal demon gods.

    In the context, I don't think there's anything sinister in a bit of mashup between not-Spain and not-Italy.
  • Nihil515Nihil515 Posts: 109Registered Users
    az88 said:

    Nihil515 said:

    az88 said:

    Honestly, Estalia and Tilea have nothing to do with the writers not knowing about Spanish history and everything to do with them not caring. It's not written to be anything other than daft. It's a Nigel Stillman book, which means it's intended to be "funny" in a way that often only appeals to Nigel. The joke names have to be basic enough (using Spanish words English-speakers know) to make non-Spanish-speakers chuckle and the book focuses on GCSE-level renaissance history and transplants it all into the context of a fictional Italy.

    If you asked Tuomas or Rick (who helped write the book) to write an historical game they'd get the history spot on (and have). That's not the intent here. You have to forget the real history and embrace the fiction. The entire Warhammer World is a fictional earth setting, full of dodgy jokes and silly stereotypes. It's just how it is. Estalia isn't Spain - it's Estalia.

    Your sentence: "You have to forget the real history and embrace the fiction"
    Oh really? They take historical events like the ocuppation of "Araby" to "Estalia" and them make a reconquest completly executed by bretonians. Because, you know, is cooler that Bretonians helps Estalian to liberate their country and don't asked for nothing in exchange. WTF???

    If they should have know enought history, they would have said that from the small kindom of Asturias a reconquest was made by the Estalians. Or something like that. There was no need to make Bretonia enter in that conflict. And the same with Pizarro, Lustria, and the small pieces of Lore that you can found in the books. Even the confusions between Estalians and Tileans. We love italian people, their way of thinking and living are really close to us. Don't know where that joke comes from.

    Whatever. I doubt that they manage the history. In my opinion they have some vague ideas, and they throw it there. But you can think the other version, of course.

    And yes. Warhammer is fantasy, but is obvious that it have an historical base. Look Bretonia, the Empire, Tilea, etc.
    Bretonnia is involved to make Bretonnia look good. The Empire and Bretonnia had army books and miniatures and the "filler" nations of the Old World got to be invaded or liberated by them as required. It's all about making the main factions look powerful and cool. Albion is a very silly take on various British legends and historical stereotypes. It's not meant to be a history of the British peoples.

    You can believe what you wish, as you say. However, if you look at the historical games these same authors have produced you'll note that they take accuracy very seriously in that context. Rick Priestley, one of the three authors, is a committee member of the Society of Ancients historical wargaming group and author of 3 award winning historical games. Nigel Stillman, the lead author, was a professional archaeologist (specialising in Egyptology and then working in medieval archaeology) before he got into game design. If you think they lack enough understanding of the time period to make things accurate if that was the intention, you may be mistaken. Before he worked in fantasy gaming Nigel produced a number of historical rule sets, including "Armies of the Ancient Near East - 3000BC to 539BC"....I know this because my Assyriology professor and I used to play using those rules. The fact that he used those wargames rules to familiarise students with various concepts probably attests to the accuracy that Stillman can manage when that's his intent.

    Albion is not Britain. Estalia is not Spain. Nehekhara is not Egypt. Those places might provide loose inspiration, but you can't ask for historical accuracy when you're not dealing with the same world.
    Okey. And you are sure that Nigel and Rick Priestley make all the history of the Warhammer World?

    So why say that Tilea has City States (this is historically true, Italian Cities where independent and all have their goverment in the Renasence and, in fact, they where occupied by Kingdoms like Spain and France, because having armies of mercenaries makes them flee and abandon you when te battle is lots) and say, whell, Spain. Erm. They have City States too. It looks silly.

    I don't know. I have said already, in both of my post. It could be intentional. Maybe they are big erudites. I doubt it. Till I know and read better about those person, I will doubt it.

    But even if you are true and you are right about them, they have had to little comercial vision. In the warhammer books everything was made to create the idea of races to have a cool side. A desirable side for those nations. Even Kislev that always is getting destroying by Chaos had a pretty epic history. Why they didn't do that with the other nationes like Estalia, Tilea and Border Princess? Why to private them of any leve of epicity?

    Lets admit your point, they are great saviours of history and the did it intentionally, but that doesnt apport anything to the world of warhammer. It just looks like they didn't know history, but they know a lot.

    I don't see people laugthing by those "jokes". No one. No body.
    I don't see Souther Realms to have a cool background.

    But there is people still that one to play with them, because Southern Realms has potential for being their own faction in warhammmer. And not only a group of stupid humans that did nothing but die miserably when skavens came out.

  • baronblackbaronblack Posts: 3,202Registered Users
    Nihil515 said:

    az88 said:

    Nihil515 said:

    az88 said:

    Honestly, Estalia and Tilea have nothing to do with the writers not knowing about Spanish history and everything to do with them not caring. It's not written to be anything other than daft. It's a Nigel Stillman book, which means it's intended to be "funny" in a way that often only appeals to Nigel. The joke names have to be basic enough (using Spanish words English-speakers know) to make non-Spanish-speakers chuckle and the book focuses on GCSE-level renaissance history and transplants it all into the context of a fictional Italy.

    If you asked Tuomas or Rick (who helped write the book) to write an historical game they'd get the history spot on (and have). That's not the intent here. You have to forget the real history and embrace the fiction. The entire Warhammer World is a fictional earth setting, full of dodgy jokes and silly stereotypes. It's just how it is. Estalia isn't Spain - it's Estalia.

    Your sentence: "You have to forget the real history and embrace the fiction"
    Oh really? They take historical events like the ocuppation of "Araby" to "Estalia" and them make a reconquest completly executed by bretonians. Because, you know, is cooler that Bretonians helps Estalian to liberate their country and don't asked for nothing in exchange. WTF???

    If they should have know enought history, they would have said that from the small kindom of Asturias a reconquest was made by the Estalians. Or something like that. There was no need to make Bretonia enter in that conflict. And the same with Pizarro, Lustria, and the small pieces of Lore that you can found in the books. Even the confusions between Estalians and Tileans. We love italian people, their way of thinking and living are really close to us. Don't know where that joke comes from.

    Whatever. I doubt that they manage the history. In my opinion they have some vague ideas, and they throw it there. But you can think the other version, of course.

    And yes. Warhammer is fantasy, but is obvious that it have an historical base. Look Bretonia, the Empire, Tilea, etc.
    Bretonnia is involved to make Bretonnia look good. The Empire and Bretonnia had army books and miniatures and the "filler" nations of the Old World got to be invaded or liberated by them as required. It's all about making the main factions look powerful and cool. Albion is a very silly take on various British legends and historical stereotypes. It's not meant to be a history of the British peoples.

    You can believe what you wish, as you say. However, if you look at the historical games these same authors have produced you'll note that they take accuracy very seriously in that context. Rick Priestley, one of the three authors, is a committee member of the Society of Ancients historical wargaming group and author of 3 award winning historical games. Nigel Stillman, the lead author, was a professional archaeologist (specialising in Egyptology and then working in medieval archaeology) before he got into game design. If you think they lack enough understanding of the time period to make things accurate if that was the intention, you may be mistaken. Before he worked in fantasy gaming Nigel produced a number of historical rule sets, including "Armies of the Ancient Near East - 3000BC to 539BC"....I know this because my Assyriology professor and I used to play using those rules. The fact that he used those wargames rules to familiarise students with various concepts probably attests to the accuracy that Stillman can manage when that's his intent.

    Albion is not Britain. Estalia is not Spain. Nehekhara is not Egypt. Those places might provide loose inspiration, but you can't ask for historical accuracy when you're not dealing with the same world.
    Okey. And you are sure that Nigel and Rick Priestley make all the history of the Warhammer World?

    So why say that Tilea has City States (this is historically true, Italian Cities where independent and all have their goverment in the Renasence and, in fact, they where occupied by Kingdoms like Spain and France, because having armies of mercenaries makes them flee and abandon you when te battle is lots) and say, whell, Spain. Erm. They have City States too. It looks silly.

    I don't know. I have said already, in both of my post. It could be intentional. Maybe they are big erudites. I doubt it. Till I know and read better about those person, I will doubt it.

    But even if you are true and you are right about them, they have had to little comercial vision. In the warhammer books everything was made to create the idea of races to have a cool side. A desirable side for those nations. Even Kislev that always is getting destroying by Chaos had a pretty epic history. Why they didn't do that with the other nationes like Estalia, Tilea and Border Princess? Why to private them of any leve of epicity?

    Lets admit your point, they are great saviours of history and the did it intentionally, but that doesnt apport anything to the world of warhammer. It just looks like they didn't know history, but they know a lot.

    I don't see people laugthing by those "jokes". No one. No body.
    I don't see Souther Realms to have a cool background.

    But there is people still that one to play with them, because Southern Realms has potential for being their own faction in warhammmer. And not only a group of stupid humans that did nothing but die miserably when skavens came out.

    I laugh a lot about these jokes, and I'm Italian. The lore of these countries was never expanded for two simply reasons.

    1. 40k got all the love and Fantasy stopped expanding the lore significantly.
    2. Dogs of War were discontinued because they tried to open GW market to Italy. It was a fail because, with the words of a DoW player, you have the silliest aesthetics and rules for the 5th edition.

    They were, in fact, nor cool nor competitive. Only pikemen models were bought en masse, because they were liked a lot. Braganza besiegers and Pirazzo Lost Legion were the most selling regiments of the bunch, but were mostly used on historical games of the same scale.
    Just like TKs in 8th edition, Dogs of War were destined to be put in the trash can.

    As of 6th edition, WHFB lore expansions had finally stopped. 40k got all the attention he could get.

    If the new GW had Warhammer Fantasy, we would be talking about how cool are the diffferent strains of Beastmen models and how Cathay is goldie and exotic.
    But the Old GW decided for the End Times.
  • az88az88 Posts: 3,065Registered Users
    Nihil515 said:

    az88 said:

    Nihil515 said:

    az88 said:

    Honestly, Estalia and Tilea have nothing to do with the writers not knowing about Spanish history and everything to do with them not caring. It's not written to be anything other than daft. It's a Nigel Stillman book, which means it's intended to be "funny" in a way that often only appeals to Nigel. The joke names have to be basic enough (using Spanish words English-speakers know) to make non-Spanish-speakers chuckle and the book focuses on GCSE-level renaissance history and transplants it all into the context of a fictional Italy.

    If you asked Tuomas or Rick (who helped write the book) to write an historical game they'd get the history spot on (and have). That's not the intent here. You have to forget the real history and embrace the fiction. The entire Warhammer World is a fictional earth setting, full of dodgy jokes and silly stereotypes. It's just how it is. Estalia isn't Spain - it's Estalia.

    Your sentence: "You have to forget the real history and embrace the fiction"
    Oh really? They take historical events like the ocuppation of "Araby" to "Estalia" and them make a reconquest completly executed by bretonians. Because, you know, is cooler that Bretonians helps Estalian to liberate their country and don't asked for nothing in exchange. WTF???

    If they should have know enought history, they would have said that from the small kindom of Asturias a reconquest was made by the Estalians. Or something like that. There was no need to make Bretonia enter in that conflict. And the same with Pizarro, Lustria, and the small pieces of Lore that you can found in the books. Even the confusions between Estalians and Tileans. We love italian people, their way of thinking and living are really close to us. Don't know where that joke comes from.

    Whatever. I doubt that they manage the history. In my opinion they have some vague ideas, and they throw it there. But you can think the other version, of course.

    And yes. Warhammer is fantasy, but is obvious that it have an historical base. Look Bretonia, the Empire, Tilea, etc.
    Bretonnia is involved to make Bretonnia look good. The Empire and Bretonnia had army books and miniatures and the "filler" nations of the Old World got to be invaded or liberated by them as required. It's all about making the main factions look powerful and cool. Albion is a very silly take on various British legends and historical stereotypes. It's not meant to be a history of the British peoples.

    You can believe what you wish, as you say. However, if you look at the historical games these same authors have produced you'll note that they take accuracy very seriously in that context. Rick Priestley, one of the three authors, is a committee member of the Society of Ancients historical wargaming group and author of 3 award winning historical games. Nigel Stillman, the lead author, was a professional archaeologist (specialising in Egyptology and then working in medieval archaeology) before he got into game design. If you think they lack enough understanding of the time period to make things accurate if that was the intention, you may be mistaken. Before he worked in fantasy gaming Nigel produced a number of historical rule sets, including "Armies of the Ancient Near East - 3000BC to 539BC"....I know this because my Assyriology professor and I used to play using those rules. The fact that he used those wargames rules to familiarise students with various concepts probably attests to the accuracy that Stillman can manage when that's his intent.

    Albion is not Britain. Estalia is not Spain. Nehekhara is not Egypt. Those places might provide loose inspiration, but you can't ask for historical accuracy when you're not dealing with the same world.
    But even if you are true and you are right about them, they have had to little comercial vision. In the warhammer books everything was made to create the idea of races to have a cool side. A desirable side for those nations. Even Kislev that always is getting destroying by Chaos had a pretty epic history. Why they didn't do that with the other nationes like Estalia, Tilea and Border Princess? Why to private them of any leve of epicity?
    Dogs of War were extremely popular and have remained so for 20 years - as you can tell by the clamour on here and other platforms to have them included. So the book did what it was supposed to do. I'm not sure what you mean by them having little "commercial vision" but these were the guys who produced the heyday of Warhammer Fantasy. There was never an intention to make every minor nation a playable table top race and so some of them essentially served as plot devices to make the "book races" look cool.

    I very much doubt they were hoping that people from the fictional places' real life counterparts would support "their team", as it were. Otherwise they'd probably not have put the High Elves in the middle of the Atlantic...not a lot of cod play Warhammer.

    Dogs of War never got a reboot for the simple reason that there was too much visual variety during the era of plastic. When you make metal models then every one has to be sculpted as an individual project, so making them unique isn't an issue. With multi-part plastics the aim to to make kits that could serve as multiple different types of units, when possible, because plastic moulds are insanely expensive. Nobody was interested in a simplified DoW list, because one of the major reasons sales were pretty good was that people picked up the odd unit to take as allies. They sold okay, but not well enough to justify the costs of a plastic mould for each individual project.

    There was a suggestion that there might be an Estalia or Tilea release for 7th edition, but I don't think it was ever going to be done. You are right that CA will need to do work on the factions to flesh them out, but if they just set aside all the existent lore about them then what's the point? You're no longer actually putting Estalia or Tilea into the game, you're actually adding Spain and Italy with a fantasy twist.

    It's also worth noting that you've talked about how "epic" some other nations get to be in the lore and why the authors who developed the Southern realms were incapable of doing that. The trouble is, it's the same authors. The first book for Bretonnia was written by Stillman. Kislev's "epic" fluff is Rick Priestley's work. Vampire Counts was Thomas Pirinen's pet project. Estalia was never meant to be "epic" because most of the fluff about them revolves around another faction being the hero of the piece. CA will need to do work on them if they're to be a full faction, I agree; but without massive retcons to the lore for other factions. Lore which is already in the game, I think, in terms of the crusades and things.
  • az88az88 Posts: 3,065Registered Users
    Also, if you don't like the lore as it exists, you can always pretend it's a result of GW's use of the unreliable narrator.

    That would also be the only way CA could do a major rework of the luff if they wanted to. A sort of "our history has been told only by the men of the north...and their tongues tell only lies" sort of thing. I don't see why they'd want to, but I suppose they could.

    If the Border Princes get a faction I'm now fully expecting a lot of gamers in the Balkans to get very upset.
  • baronblackbaronblack Posts: 3,202Registered Users
    az88 said:

    Also, if you don't like the lore as it exists, you can always pretend it's a result of GW's use of the unreliable narrator.

    That would also be the only way CA could do a major rework of the luff if they wanted to. A sort of "our history has been told only by the men of the north...and their tongues tell only lies" sort of thing. I don't see why they'd want to, but I suppose they could.

    If the Border Princes get a faction I'm now fully expecting a lot of gamers in the Balkans to get very upset.

    Well I did not know about Dogs of War in other countries, but here they were far less appealing than expected.
  • Nihil515Nihil515 Posts: 109Registered Users
    edited May 2018
    az88 said:

    Nihil515 said:

    az88 said:

    Nihil515 said:

    az88 said:

    Honestly, Estalia and Tilea have nothing to do with the writers not knowing about Spanish history and everything to do with them not caring. It's not written to be anything other than daft. It's a Nigel Stillman book, which means it's intended to be "funny" in a way that often only appeals to Nigel. The joke names have to be basic enough (using Spanish words English-speakers know) to make non-Spanish-speakers chuckle and the book focuses on GCSE-level renaissance history and transplants it all into the context of a fictional Italy.

    If you asked Tuomas or Rick (who helped write the book) to write an historical game they'd get the history spot on (and have). That's not the intent here. You have to forget the real history and embrace the fiction. The entire Warhammer World is a fictional earth setting, full of dodgy jokes and silly stereotypes. It's just how it is. Estalia isn't Spain - it's Estalia.

    Your sentence: "You have to forget the real history and embrace the fiction"
    Oh really? They take historical events like the ocuppation of "Araby" to "Estalia" and them make a reconquest completly executed by bretonians. Because, you know, is cooler that Bretonians helps Estalian to liberate their country and don't asked for nothing in exchange. WTF???

    If they should have know enought history, they would have said that from the small kindom of Asturias a reconquest was made by the Estalians. Or something like that. There was no need to make Bretonia enter in that conflict. And the same with Pizarro, Lustria, and the small pieces of Lore that you can found in the books. Even the confusions between Estalians and Tileans. We love italian people, their way of thinking and living are really close to us. Don't know where that joke comes from.

    Whatever. I doubt that they manage the history. In my opinion they have some vague ideas, and they throw it there. But you can think the other version, of course.

    And yes. Warhammer is fantasy, but is obvious that it have an historical base. Look Bretonia, the Empire, Tilea, etc.
    Bretonnia is involved to make Bretonnia look good. The Empire and Bretonnia had army books and miniatures and the "filler" nations of the Old World got to be invaded or liberated by them as required. It's all about making the main factions look powerful and cool. Albion is a very silly take on various British legends and historical stereotypes. It's not meant to be a history of the British peoples.

    You can believe what you wish, as you say. However, if you look at the historical games these same authors have produced you'll note that they take accuracy very seriously in that context. Rick Priestley, one of the three authors, is a committee member of the Society of Ancients historical wargaming group and author of 3 award winning historical games. Nigel Stillman, the lead author, was a professional archaeologist (specialising in Egyptology and then working in medieval archaeology) before he got into game design. If you think they lack enough understanding of the time period to make things accurate if that was the intention, you may be mistaken. Before he worked in fantasy gaming Nigel produced a number of historical rule sets, including "Armies of the Ancient Near East - 3000BC to 539BC"....I know this because my Assyriology professor and I used to play using those rules. The fact that he used those wargames rules to familiarise students with various concepts probably attests to the accuracy that Stillman can manage when that's his intent.

    Albion is not Britain. Estalia is not Spain. Nehekhara is not Egypt. Those places might provide loose inspiration, but you can't ask for historical accuracy when you're not dealing with the same world.
    But even if you are true and you are right about them, they have had to little comercial vision. In the warhammer books everything was made to create the idea of races to have a cool side. A desirable side for those nations. Even Kislev that always is getting destroying by Chaos had a pretty epic history. Why they didn't do that with the other nationes like Estalia, Tilea and Border Princess? Why to private them of any leve of epicity?
    Dogs of War were extremely popular and have remained so for 20 years - as you can tell by the clamour on here and other platforms to have them included. So the book did what it was supposed to do. I'm not sure what you mean by them having little "commercial vision" but these were the guys who produced the heyday of Warhammer Fantasy. There was never an intention to make every minor nation a playable table top race and so some of them essentially served as plot devices to make the "book races" look cool.

    I very much doubt they were hoping that people from the fictional places' real life counterparts would support "their team", as it were. Otherwise they'd probably not have put the High Elves in the middle of the Atlantic...not a lot of cod play Warhammer.

    Dogs of War never got a reboot for the simple reason that there was too much visual variety during the era of plastic. When you make metal models then every one has to be sculpted as an individual project, so making them unique isn't an issue. With multi-part plastics the aim to to make kits that could serve as multiple different types of units, when possible, because plastic moulds are insanely expensive. Nobody was interested in a simplified DoW list, because one of the major reasons sales were pretty good was that people picked up the odd unit to take as allies. They sold okay, but not well enough to justify the costs of a plastic mould for each individual project.

    There was a suggestion that there might be an Estalia or Tilea release for 7th edition, but I don't think it was ever going to be done. You are right that CA will need to do work on the factions to flesh them out, but if they just set aside all the existent lore about them then what's the point? You're no longer actually putting Estalia or Tilea into the game, you're actually adding Spain and Italy with a fantasy twist.

    It's also worth noting that you've talked about how "epic" some other nations get to be in the lore and why the authors who developed the Southern realms were incapable of doing that. The trouble is, it's the same authors. The first book for Bretonnia was written by Stillman. Kislev's "epic" fluff is Rick Priestley's work. Vampire Counts was Thomas Pirinen's pet project. Estalia was never meant to be "epic" because most of the fluff about them revolves around another faction being the hero of the piece. CA will need to do work on them if they're to be a full faction, I agree; but without massive retcons to the lore for other factions. Lore which is already in the game, I think, in terms of the crusades and things.
    WTF MAN?

    You are missinterpreting my words:
    I don't want people to support their world counterparts. I play with High Elves and Bretonians, and these last ones are my favorites in background, Lore, or whaetever you call it. [Even if their chivalry code is essentially the contrary to Spanish Picaresca] So don't presuppose that I want to make warhammer like a league of footbal where everybody goes with his country, just because it is where they were born. I'm not saying that.

    I have never said that they have to just set aside all the existence lore, man. Where did I say that? I say that some of the lore should be changes for obvious reasons. Estalians Evil Man. BandoLLero (with double L, if you are going to use the world from another lenguage it would be better to check the spelling). Estalian Lore is improvable, and its better in the way that the fandom have done it. In fact, if you go to the unofficial book you will found a better treat from those """secondary natios""" that are there to make Bretonia and The Empire cool (like if they were not cool enought per se,: by their aesthethics, units, etcetera)

    I don't know but I feel that my opinion is taken like a personal attack. I love warhammer. But not the Estalia lore.
    It's really obvious that is improvable, and I'm just asking to improve it.

    Is unreasonable what I saying?
    Okey so If we are going to follow the lore literally, prevailing their weak points, I ask to add:

    Tileans Pizza Thrower, as a war machine.
    Chinese Fast Food war wagon for Cathay.
    Estalian evil gringo bandoLLero Flameco singers with guitars, eating paella.
    Special Rule: Tourist from Bretonia , the Empire and Albion comes to Estalia to get drunked. If Estalia plays at home the enemy have a penalization for being drunk.
    Imperial Nazi Germans Gas expanders of sigmar.
    Bretonian femenine calvary with french manners and acting really gay.

    It would be pretty funny.
  • az88az88 Posts: 3,065Registered Users

    az88 said:

    Also, if you don't like the lore as it exists, you can always pretend it's a result of GW's use of the unreliable narrator.

    That would also be the only way CA could do a major rework of the luff if they wanted to. A sort of "our history has been told only by the men of the north...and their tongues tell only lies" sort of thing. I don't see why they'd want to, but I suppose they could.

    If the Border Princes get a faction I'm now fully expecting a lot of gamers in the Balkans to get very upset.

    Well I did not know about Dogs of War in other countries, but here they were far less appealing than expected.
    I think sales were "okay." Not so awful as to doom them for eternity, but not good enough for them to have to become a proper faction. A bit like Chaos Dwarfs, in that sense.
  • az88az88 Posts: 3,065Registered Users
    Nihil515 said:

    az88 said:

    Nihil515 said:

    az88 said:

    Nihil515 said:

    az88 said:

    Honestly, Estalia and Tilea have nothing to do with the writers not knowing about Spanish history and everything to do with them not caring. It's not written to be anything other than daft. It's a Nigel Stillman book, which means it's intended to be "funny" in a way that often only appeals to Nigel. The joke names have to be basic enough (using Spanish words English-speakers know) to make non-Spanish-speakers chuckle and the book focuses on GCSE-level renaissance history and transplants it all into the context of a fictional Italy.

    If you asked Tuomas or Rick (who helped write the book) to write an historical game they'd get the history spot on (and have). That's not the intent here. You have to forget the real history and embrace the fiction. The entire Warhammer World is a fictional earth setting, full of dodgy jokes and silly stereotypes. It's just how it is. Estalia isn't Spain - it's Estalia.

    Your sentence: "You have to forget the real history and embrace the fiction"
    Oh really? They take historical events like the ocuppation of "Araby" to "Estalia" and them make a reconquest completly executed by bretonians. Because, you know, is cooler that Bretonians helps Estalian to liberate their country and don't asked for nothing in exchange. WTF???

    If they should have know enought history, they would have said that from the small kindom of Asturias a reconquest was made by the Estalians. Or something like that. There was no need to make Bretonia enter in that conflict. And the same with Pizarro, Lustria, and the small pieces of Lore that you can found in the books. Even the confusions between Estalians and Tileans. We love italian people, their way of thinking and living are really close to us. Don't know where that joke comes from.

    Whatever. I doubt that they manage the history. In my opinion they have some vague ideas, and they throw it there. But you can think the other version, of course.

    And yes. Warhammer is fantasy, but is obvious that it have an historical base. Look Bretonia, the Empire, Tilea, etc.
    Bretonnia is involved to make Bretonnia look good. The Empire and Bretonnia had army books and miniatures and the "filler" nations of the Old World got to be invaded or liberated by them as required. It's all about making the main factions look powerful and cool. Albion is a very silly take on various British legends and historical stereotypes. It's not meant to be a history of the British peoples.

    You can believe what you wish, as you say. However, if you look at the historical games these same authors have produced you'll note that they take accuracy very seriously in that context. Rick Priestley, one of the three authors, is a committee member of the Society of Ancients historical wargaming group and author of 3 award winning historical games. Nigel Stillman, the lead author, was a professional archaeologist (specialising in Egyptology and then working in medieval archaeology) before he got into game design. If you think they lack enough understanding of the time period to make things accurate if that was the intention, you may be mistaken. Before he worked in fantasy gaming Nigel produced a number of historical rule sets, including "Armies of the Ancient Near East - 3000BC to 539BC"....I know this because my Assyriology professor and I used to play using those rules. The fact that he used those wargames rules to familiarise students with various concepts probably attests to the accuracy that Stillman can manage when that's his intent.

    Albion is not Britain. Estalia is not Spain. Nehekhara is not Egypt. Those places might provide loose inspiration, but you can't ask for historical accuracy when you're not dealing with the same world.
    But even if you are true and you are right about them, they have had to little comercial vision. In the warhammer books everything was made to create the idea of races to have a cool side. A desirable side for those nations. Even Kislev that always is getting destroying by Chaos had a pretty epic history. Why they didn't do that with the other nationes like Estalia, Tilea and Border Princess? Why to private them of any leve of epicity?
    Dogs of War were extremely popular and have remained so for 20 years - as you can tell by the clamour on here and other platforms to have them included. So the book did what it was supposed to do. I'm not sure what you mean by them having little "commercial vision" but these were the guys who produced the heyday of Warhammer Fantasy. There was never an intention to make every minor nation a playable table top race and so some of them essentially served as plot devices to make the "book races" look cool.

    I very much doubt they were hoping that people from the fictional places' real life counterparts would support "their team", as it were. Otherwise they'd probably not have put the High Elves in the middle of the Atlantic...not a lot of cod play Warhammer.

    Dogs of War never got a reboot for the simple reason that there was too much visual variety during the era of plastic. When you make metal models then every one has to be sculpted as an individual project, so making them unique isn't an issue. With multi-part plastics the aim to to make kits that could serve as multiple different types of units, when possible, because plastic moulds are insanely expensive. Nobody was interested in a simplified DoW list, because one of the major reasons sales were pretty good was that people picked up the odd unit to take as allies. They sold okay, but not well enough to justify the costs of a plastic mould for each individual project.

    There was a suggestion that there might be an Estalia or Tilea release for 7th edition, but I don't think it was ever going to be done. You are right that CA will need to do work on the factions to flesh them out, but if they just set aside all the existent lore about them then what's the point? You're no longer actually putting Estalia or Tilea into the game, you're actually adding Spain and Italy with a fantasy twist.

    It's also worth noting that you've talked about how "epic" some other nations get to be in the lore and why the authors who developed the Southern realms were incapable of doing that. The trouble is, it's the same authors. The first book for Bretonnia was written by Stillman. Kislev's "epic" fluff is Rick Priestley's work. Vampire Counts was Thomas Pirinen's pet project. Estalia was never meant to be "epic" because most of the fluff about them revolves around another faction being the hero of the piece. CA will need to do work on them if they're to be a full faction, I agree; but without massive retcons to the lore for other factions. Lore which is already in the game, I think, in terms of the crusades and things.

    I don't know but I feel that my opinion is taken like a personal attack. I love warhammer. But not the Estalia lore.
    It's really obvious that is improvable, and I'm just asking to improve it.
    I'm not taking it at all personally. Warhammer is silly and a lot of people don't like that aspect - but when it stopped being silly it became less, not more popular. However, changing the daft names of certain units is not the same as rewriting major parts of the world's history like the defeat of Araby and the crusades.

    My take on this is that you are viewing the fluff here as somehow a slight on Spanish history. A sort of "how dare they say the French and Germans kicked the Moors out when it was the Spanish." That's at least how it is coming across. If not, fair enough. I am happy to have misread your intent here.

    If the only concern is to make Estalia as a fictional place more impressive, then CA should really find a way to do that without retconning 20+ years of established history for the fictional universe. Estalia is much more important in the New World than the Empire or Bretonnia, for example. Because they've less of an immediate threat from Chaos they're more able to dedicate their military and financial resources to colonisation. That might be a route to "making Estalia great again" in the game. MEGA also works better than MAGA, so there's a slogan ready to go.

    I only really take issue with the idea that the writers are somehow idiots who didn't know they'd not reflected the history of the real world. It's just not the case.
  • baronblackbaronblack Posts: 3,202Registered Users
    MAGA is for Araby, lads.

    Regarding the pizza thrower, the Dogs of War armybook had a quote where a cannon crew out of ammo started charging it with pasta.
    Deliciously lethal.
    In another instance they use them to bake pizza. Dogs of War armybook was hellish fun and hilarious because it was silly <3
  • Nihil515Nihil515 Posts: 109Registered Users
    I dont know how to quote properly. Sorry.

    You are saying:
    If the only concern is to make Estalia as a fictional place more impressive, then CA should really find a way to do that without retconning 20+ years of established history for the fictional universe.

    It's really easy to do this:

    1. Estalian does not have City-State as Tilea. Tobaro is a city of Estalia not from Tilea. (already done by CA).
    2. Araby ocupation. Change the writing. Estalian people, with the support of Bretonia and The Empire take back Estalia. There is no need to modify to much, jus a sentence.
    3. Not Estalian Hombres Villanos. Not Estalians Bandolleros Gringos.
    4. The city of the Estalia in Lustria is supposed to be called Nueva Magritta (New Magritta, literally). Whatever, they have change this many time. Call it as you prefer.
    5. From the point 4 we can asume that nothing is so solid to not be changeble. Warhammer Lore have suffered a lot of modifications. Be open to modifications if they are for the better.
    6. There was a race of small black men in Lustria with a stupid name. They were delated, I think it was a bit offensive. Sorry for presuponing that they have done the same with Estalia. My failure by making hyphotesis from another famous cases of the warhammer world cultural representation, the strange us of spanish names, and so on and so on. (Zizek was here)
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